2000 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Amara,
Very sorry but I don't have a reference. Proper reflection was
my words - not a translation of the pali (I can't evn remember
the English and have never read the pali). So by proper
reflection I meant thinking in such ways as "this food is only
medicine" or when the monks bring to mind the simile of the
child. I read this sutta maybe five or six years ago so the
details are very hazy.
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> No doubt.  My question still stands:
> 
> 
> > > In your own refference above, what was the Pali for
> 'proper 
> > > relection'?
> 
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
2001 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:54pm
Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  > Proper reflection was
> my words - not a translation of the pali (I can't evn remember
> the English and have never read the pali). 


Dear Robert,

Not having read it myself I cannot suggest that it might refer to 
awareness as in satipatthana.

Amara

 
2002 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 2:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  --- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear Alex,
> 
> > 1. the monk who is faring along well in the Vinaya, on
account
> of his
>     attainment of virtue, arrives at the threefold knowledge
> (vijjaa)
> 2. the monk who is faring along well in the Suttanta, on
> account of his
>     attainment of concentration, arrives at the sixfold higher
> knowledge
>     (abhi~n~naa)
> 3. the monk who is faring along well in the Abhidhamma, on
> account of his
>     attainment of wisdom, arrives at the fourfold analytic
> insight
>     (pa.tisambhidaa)


And here is a note in the atthasalini about those who are not
faring along well(p30, 31 Pe Maung tin PTS)which follows
directly after the note above. (I abridge)
1. The Bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the vinaya imagines that
there is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch, because
the touch of these is similar to that of blankets, cloaks
etc...Consequently the bhikkhu arrives at evil practices.
2. The bhikkhu who is ill-trained in sutta gets a wrong idea...
conseqently he arrives at wrong views.
3. The bhikkhu who is ill-trained in Abhidhamma makes his mind
run to excess....consequently he gets mental derangement.

> 
> No. 1 of the last group of three suggests that there is enough
> dhamma in the
> Vinayapitaka for a monk to arrive at the threefold knowledge
> which includes
> knowledge of the destruction of the cankers
> (arahatta-fruition). 

I think this is a risky assumption, especially in this age where
now there are only neyya and padaparama individuals (see
puggalapannati). Neyya are those  who need to hear Dhamma in
much detail and who even if they practice correctly may still
not attain in this life. Padaparama even if they hear much and
practice correctly cannot attain in this life but accumulate the
causes for panna in future lives.
The vinaya has much in it and for those in the Buddhas time who
were Ugghatitannu or Vipancitannu (those who could attain after
hearing dhamma briefly or in moderate detail ) certainly it
would have been sufficient. These days we are not so wise and
need many details to condition wisdom - from the entire tipitika
and commentaries.
robert


 
2003 From: A T   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 2:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Robert,

>What is crucial here is to understand just what sila really is.
>This is where the Abhidhamma is  necessary for proper
>understanding of satipatthana and thus for understanding the
>vinaya.

   Yes, I understand.  I would like to understand how the Vinaya is related 
to satipatthana.

>As I have stressed at different times it is not by
>outward action that we can judge sila.

   Is it easy to see that by killing with intention and the action is 
completed, I break the first precept?  If intentionally going out of my way 
seeking and drinking alcohol, I successfully break the fifth one?

>You once said about a
>karaoke attendant that we could not tell from looking at him
>whether he might have sati. Yes, precisely.

   I thought that Sati and Sila are 2 different things.  Sati exists along 
with mindfullness of kusala citta.  Breaking the Sila is akusala.  
Therefore, when intentionally breaking a sila, I cannot have a moment of 
sati.

   However, since sati is momentary, a karaoke attendant who is not drunk 
may have moments of sati, while a drunken man cannot.  The effect of alcohol 
will prevent him from having any moment of sati at all.

>The monks "job" is to guard the sixdoors and he is reminded
>about this duty by the vinaya. This guarding is only
>accomplished properly when there is attention to the kammatthana
>(meditation object) which as we have said before at this time
>should usually be the khandas, dhatus, or ayatanas. A monk knows
>that if he even eats a meal without reflecting wisely that for
>that much alone he is liable to be born in hell. Anyone can live
>the monks life if they have the perseverance to endure an
>austere lifestyle- BUT to live it with RIGHT effort to
>understand the moment takes wisdom, as garnered from right
>reflection from the Dhamma.

   I understand the above paragraph.  Thank you.
>
> >    I see.  It's similar to the idea of taking 5 precepts.  The
> > Sila helps
> > the mind clear and peaceful so that it can study Dhamma
> > better.
>
>Your reply may indicate an idea that first we get sila and then
>comes wisdom. Remember that a moment cannot be held onto.

   I understand that similar to study Dhamma, by keeping the Sila we are 
creating more conditions for Sati moments.

>Sila
>and wisdom can arise together because every kusala citta can be
>classified as sila.

   I understand what you say here: Every kusala citta can be classified as 
sila.  :-)))

>Some people have the same idea about samadhi; they think they
>will get concentrated and then use this concentration to
>investigate. Both of these ideas show a  belief in permanence
>and control. You see ekaggatta cetasika, samadhi, arises and
>passes away COMPLETLY along with the citta that is conascent to
>it. Because the next citta is conditioned by the preceeding
>citta if the arammana is the same, as in the development of
>samattha, then samadhi can become powerful and so upacara
>samadhi and then jhana attained. However in vipassana it is
>different. This is  more subtle than samattha. It needs that
>special knowledge that only Buddha's can teach- the
>understanding of anatta and its corollary no-control.

   I agree ...

>There
>cannot be holding to one object with vipassana because
>satpatthana can only be aware of paramattha dhammas, actual
>realities. And paramattha dhammas are arising and passing
>ceaselessly. They have their own conditions for coming into
>being. No one can control them or hold onto them. Thus samadhi
>in vipassana is khanika samadhi, momentary. It does not last
>even for a split second. It has different strengths appropriate
>to the  level of understanding. At the moments of actual
>vipassana insight the samadhi is very powerful just for those
>moments. It is conditioned by the panna that arises at the same
>time and it assists panna because it fixes on whatever parmattha
>dhammas are being insighted. This is all uncontrollable though
>and we can't arrange to have samadhi and the later tack wisdom
>onto it.

   Thank you for reminding me ...

> >    Now, I have a related question:  Do we need to study the
> > Vinaya the way
> > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma?  I know that the
> > monks study and
> > review the Vinaya thoroughly.
>
>Good to study Vinaya I think.

   Reading Vinaya as rules is not a problem.  However, to study it in order 
to develop panna is not so easy, I think.

>Yes, Sila in daily life is very supportive.  I just found a
> > title for
> > Nina's new book: Sila In Daily Life.  :-)))
>
>Good idea

   :-)))

Anumodana,
Alex

 
2004 From: Jim Wilson   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:33pm
Subject: Thanks For The Help

 
  Good Friends:

Thanks so much for the help.  Good practical suggestions.  Looking 
forward to furthering my understanding with all your kind assistance.

Best wishes,

Jimfw

 
2005 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  . --Dear alex,
Good questions!
- A T  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> >> 
>    Yes, I understand.  I would like to understand how the
> Vinaya is related 
> to satipatthana.


In the Vissudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as
restraint and one of the ways is restraint by
mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says “he
guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the
eye faculty,” and it repeats for the other doors. And later it
says (I42) “On seeing a visible object with the eye, he
apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which ,
if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable
states of covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters
upon the way of its restraint..”..
Now for this type of sila it is very obvious that one does not
have to be a monk. However the vinaya in various ways encourages
one to "guard the sense doors". The vinaya constantly reminds
about the slightest fault: so, for example, monks should not
gaze at a woman. If they are start to do this they will remember
the rule and, if they understand satipatthana, replace the
lustful gaze with study of a paramattha dhamma such as
colour.(if they don't understand they might try to supress in
some way or another). On the other hand, for people like me, who
are not under any such rule, I may continue gazing mindlessly,
heedlessly, lustfully and blissfully.

> 
> >As I have stressed at different times it is not by
> >outward action that we can judge sila.
> 
>    Is it easy to see that by killing with intention and the
> action is 
> completed, I break the first precept?  If intentionally going
> out of my way 
> seeking and drinking alcohol, I successfully break the fifth
> one?

Different levels of akusala here. If someone twists your arm and
you have a sip of beer even though you don't want to, as soon as
you take a sip there is breaking of sila. If you want to so much
and go to great trouble to do so the degree of akusala is likely
to be greater. Here is an extract from a letter I wrote a while
back:
We tend to have a story "well if I drink just
a can or two it isn't so bad - I won't get drunk'. And when we
put it that way it doesn't seem too bad. . If we break the story
down into what is actually happening moment by moment it looks a
little more serious.
Hence: we start thinking about how nice it would be to have a
beer (whiskey, tequila, cocktail..). That thinking is rooted in
lobha, unwholesome desire. And the nasty type of lobha called
asama lobha (the lobha that goes beyond bounds). We then make
plans to; go to a bar, a party, a liquor shop, a friends house.
More asama lobha. This type of thinking then conditions bodily
action - we get the car out and drive to; a bar; a party... And
all this action; getting the keys, opening the car door, driving
is all conditioned by very unwholesome mindstates. However, at
this stage still not the completed unwholesome kamma (akusala
kamma pattha). This only happens when we actually drink. At the
very first swallow this is completed kamma and it can bring
unpleasant results at some time in the future. Take another
swallow- another akusala kamma pattha. Many can be done in the
course of an evening. This can be broken down more and more and
more. If we study these moments again and again during the
course of an evening we may see a little of the nature of this
type of akusala. 
Whenever we refuse a drink there is a moment of kusala
(wholesomeness), sila. This might be followed shortly afterwards
by unwholesomeness when we can't help ourselves and take a drink
anyway (akusala). 

> >You once said about a
> >karaoke attendant that we could not tell from looking at him
> >whether he might have sati. Yes, precisely.
> 
>    I thought that Sati and Sila are 2 different things.  Sati
> exists along 
> with mindfullness of kusala citta.  Breaking the Sila is
> akusala.  
> Therefore, when intentionally breaking a sila, I cannot have a
> moment of 
> sati.

This is why understanding the difference between concept and
reality is the key. WE have a story of sila - that is we believe
that 'we" are keeping sila or not keeping sila. But sila is
simply a mental reality, a dhamma, that arises for the briefest
possible moment before passing away.

>    However, since sati is momentary, a karaoke attendant who
> is not drunk 
> may have moments of sati, while a drunken man cannot.  The
> effect of alcohol 
> will prevent him from having any moment of sati at all.

This is a misunderstanding. There can be moments of sila even
while one is drunk. For example, you are drunk, someone offers
you more beer but sati arises and you refuse it. This is sila.
As always only by breaking down 'life" into just one moment can
we understand this. There truly is no person, only moments, of 4
different jatis. This is the crux of the matter.

> 
>    I understand that similar to study Dhamma, by keeping the
> Sila we are 
> creating more conditions for Sati moments.
> 
As I noted it is not us keeping sila and sila only lasts for a
moment. There is a no sila when we are sitting quietly trying to
concentrate but with hidden desire or moha. But there is a high
level of sila if there is awareness of the characteristic of a
paramattha dhamma (reality) even while we are watching a violent
movie on TV (for example).  
> 
> > >    Now, I have a related question:  Do we need to study
> the
> > > Vinaya the way
> > > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma?  I know that the
> > > monks study and
> > > review the Vinaya thoroughly.

I think no rule about this. As Jim noted the vinaya (and
commentaries to it) are filled with Dhamma as well as the monks
rules. I used to read it alot. Khun sujin often discusses points
in it. She does stress that in the beginning Abhidhamma is most
important so that a level of understanding about anatta is
established. I think if all laypeople studied vinaya in Thailand
it would be a great thing as then they would stop giving money
to monks or supporting bad monks. 
Robert


 
2006 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 5:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] re: teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael J,

I'm interested to read your comments and response to
Sotujana. May I say at the outset that I agree with
some of your comments but not with others! I'm sure
you'll have a similar reaction to what I'm going to
say and look forward to more of your clear responses!

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:
> Dear Sotujana
> 
> You question about teaching resources is
> inappropriate.
> 
well, right here, I'm not sure I agree...

> Basic meditation is not easy to teach even for
> professional educators. This
> is a big responsibility and not to be taken lightly.
> 
> Vipassana is not basic meditation at any stage and
> should be introduced to
> students by trained and experienced practitioners.
> 
> Have you ever been on a vipassana course yourself?
> 
> Have you ever done any vipassana meditation retreats
> and if so for how long?
> 

Now we run into some interesting areas! You mentioned
before that you don't see any difference to date
between what A.Sujin teaches and vipassana meditation
practices.

I agree with you entirely that vipassana is not 'basic
meditation at any stage'. So what is vipassana and why
is it necessary to go on a vipassana meditation
course?
What is an experienced practitioner? The Buddha taught
that vipassana is the development of wisdom so why
should it be reduced to a technique which is learnt on
a course?
> 
> I think Sarah already guessed that you seem to know
> very little about what
> vipassana might be.

I think that when there is no direct understanding of
the reality that appears at this moment, there is no
knowledge of what vipassana is. This applies to us
all. If we have the idea of having that understanding
and being aware next month during a special course, it
shows a lack of confidence in the power of
understanding now. It also suggests a lack of
knowledge about the objects of understanding, the
realities that need to be known now. 
> 
> Why do you want to teach vipassana?  Look in your
> heart and find out what is
> motivating you to want this. There are more
> appropriate ways of helping
> others, meeting nice people or earning a living.
> 
I can't say for anyone else what their various motives
are and I agree with you that we need to be very
honest about our different (wholesome and unwholesome)
motives. However, the greatest gift is the gift of the
Buddha's teachings.  If we can help others to
understand a little about the true meaning of
vipassana (development of understanding), then this is
very praiseworthy. If we wait until we're experts, we
may be dead! As I said to Sotujana, I believe that by
reading, considering and developing more understanding
we'll be able to help better.


> You need to understand what vipassana is first.  One
> way to do that is to
> study by sitting in on this e-mail list and  reading
> the materials
> recommended by Sarah and others on the internet,
> book stores and public
> libraries. There are a lot of resources online -
> just put the word
> 'vipassana' in any internet search engine.  In
> addition to study there is
> the practice. It is vital that you go on an actual
> vipassana meditation
> course yourself to find out how it is done.  After
> the introduction you
> might be ready to go on a retreat for a month or so
> to understand what
> happens and what problems arise for meditators.  You
> might not be read to
> teach 'basic vipassana meditation' after all that.

Well, I'm very glad you are finding many of the same
resources useful as the rest of us do. You've
obviously heard and read and considered a lot and
you're fortunate to be in Bangkok and have the
opportunity for good 'live' discussion too. The
problem with searching 'vipassana' on the internet as
you suggest is that she'll find a range of different
understandings. I'd be bold enough as to say some are
right and some are wrong!

I agree that after reading and considering the various
viewpoints and researching what the Buddha really
said, she may be inclined to continue as she is doing,
she may be inclined to follow your advice and go on a
long vipassana meditation retreat or she may just
begin to see that vipassana can develop in daily life,
on the subway, in the shops, whilst talking with
friends or whilst eating greedily! Any time is the
right time!

> I began vipassana meditation about 18 years ago. I
> have been on many
> retreats, some even as long as 3 months. Even so, I
> am not ready to
> introduce others to 'basic vipassana meditation.'

Well, when I first became interested in the dhamma, I
also spent a long time following 'vipassana
meditation' practices in India and Sri lanka. The most
wonderful experience I had was when at the end of a
stint of many months in a temple in Sri lanka, a
visitor to the temple, Ann, introduced me to
'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina VG in manuscript
form and some bad quality tapes of discussion with
A.Sujin in India. After reading the first page of ADL
I was never inclined to 'meditate' again....Realities
are anatta, beyond control.  Behind my practice for
all this time had been a lurking idea of self who
could be aware.

Best wishes,
Sarah

p.s To Amara, Tom, Pinna, 

some very exciting news (lots of lobha this end)..Ann
(Marshall Bell) as in my note above, just went out to
Vancouver airport to meet Jonothan in transit. He just
called to say she was very enthusiastic about this
group and promises to join! I had sent her a postcard
at the outset but she'd lost the details or something.
If she loses it this time, we'll just subscribe her
direct! It was nearly 20 yrs since we last spent time
with her in Canada. She and her family seem well.


 
2007 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 4:40pm
Subject: welcome JimW & Wyn

 
  Dear Jim W and Wyn,

May I join everyone else in welcoming you here. you
may have noted that this list is pretty active these
days....

Jim W (hope you don't mind me calling you this so as
not to confuse you w/ Jim A), I hope by now you're
making a little headway with the Pali terms....pls
feel free to remind us all to use English in brackets
when introducing new terms....

--- Jim Wilson  wrote: 

  I studied Buddhism
> in Korea, and i 
> have a large vocabulary of Chinese and Chinese
> derived Buddhist 
> terminology; but it doesn't seem to map very well to
> this discussion 
> going on here.  
> 

I'm sure many of us here would be interested to hear a
little more about your experience studying Buddhism in
Korea and how you saw/see your practice. I have many
Korean kids studying with me in Hong Kong but very few
are interested in Buddhism at all!


Wyn, please tell us a little more about yourself too.
Although I know (from the others' comments) is that
you've been active on another list. What aspects of
the Teachings are you interested in?

We look forward to hearing more from both of you here.

Best rgds,
Sarah


 
 
2008 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 7:40pm
Subject: vinaya and satipatthana

 
  Dear Alex,
I found a nice passage in the visuddmigga;

I51 "what is proper resort as anchoring? It is the 4 foundations
of mindfulness (satipatthna)on which the mind is anchored;for
this is said by the blessed one;Bhikkhus what is a bhikkhus
resort, his own native place?It is these 4 foundations of
mindfulness'Sv148
I52 Seeing fear in the slightest fault.....
I53 On seeing a visible object with the eye ..'the ancients said
"the eye does not see a visible object because it has no mind.
The mind does not see because it has no eyes. But when there is
the impingement of door and object he sees by means of the
consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its physiscal basis.
...
I54..he does not apprehend the sign of man or woman, or any sign
that is a basis for defilement..;he stops at merely what is
seen...he only apprehends what is really there {ie paramattha
dhammas}..." End of passage.

Do you see how closely this passage (taken from the Sila
section) which is explaining how a monk should live (in other
words vinaya) is so much in accord with the Abhidhamma? It tells
us directly that satipatthana and vinaya are not to be
separated. Thus, to be a monk understanding - correct
understanding - of satipatthana is the most important thing.

On my earlier post I just wanted to add something. I stressed
that sila is merely one moment. This is true. However, sila also
has the meaning of habit. We also need to know that each moment
conditions the next; and so we should not be careless about them
thinking "oh it is only a moment". That is an extreme. 

Everytime I think much about the monks life I start to get
restless. I stopped studying vinaya because the beauty of it is
almost overwhelming. Compared with that wide open life our dusty
laylife, filled with turmoil, children, responsibilities and
defilements looks pretty pathetic. However, that is our life and
these things do not stop understanding. If we have awareness
then at that moment we are, in essence, for a brief instant
monks (or nuns). 
Robert



 
2009 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:10pm
Subject: Re: teaching resources & vipassana

 
  > p.s To Amara, Tom, Pinna, 
> 
> some very exciting news (lots of lobha this end)..Ann
> (Marshall Bell) as in my note above, just went out to
> Vancouver airport to meet Jonothan in transit. He just
> called to say she was very enthusiastic about this
> group and promises to join! I had sent her a postcard
> at the outset but she'd lost the details or something.
> If she loses it this time, we'll just subscribe her
> direct! It was nearly 20 yrs since we last spent time
> with her in Canada. She and her family seem well.


Dear Sarah,

That's wonderful!  Can't wait!  

You know who I really miss though?  Susie!  Did Jonothan get to see 
her at all?  

Thanks for your hosting us all, anumodana to you both,

Amara

 
2010 From: A T   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] vinaya and satipatthana

 
  Dear Robert,

   Another inspiring post you have here...

>Do you see how closely this passage (taken from the Sila
>section) which is explaining how a monk should live (in other
>words vinaya) is so much in accord with the Abhidhamma?

   Yes, I do. :-)))

>It tells
>us directly that satipatthana and vinaya are not to be
>separated. Thus, to be a monk understanding - correct
>understanding - of satipatthana is the most important thing.

   Everything in the Tipitaka is related to each other.  The Buddha tied 
everything down snuggly.  How wonderful his wisdom was.  :-)))

   Indeed, what the Buddha taught is beautiful at the beginning, beautiful 
at the middle, and beautiful at the end.

>On my earlier post I just wanted to add something. I stressed
>that sila is merely one moment. This is true. However, sila also
>has the meaning of habit. We also need to know that each moment
>conditions the next;

   All we have is this breath at this moment.  :-)))

>and so we should not be careless about them
>thinking "oh it is only a moment". That is an extreme.

   Therefore, we can't afford to lose it.

>Everytime I think much about the monks life I start to get
>restless. I stopped studying vinaya because the beauty of it is
>almost overwhelming.

   I see what you mean.  Yes, life of a bhikkhu is indeed very beautiful.

>Compared with that wide open life our dusty
>laylife, filled with turmoil, children, responsibilities and
>defilements looks pretty pathetic. However, that is our life and
>these things do not stop understanding. If we have awareness
>then at that moment we are, in essence, for a brief instant
>monks (or nuns).

   Thank you for saying that for a brief moment of awareness, we are a monk 
(nun) for that short time period.

Anumodana,
Alex

 
2011  
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:13am
Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

Dear Robert,

> This is why understanding the difference between concept and
> reality is the key. 

    Thank you for this wonderfully compassionate post.  It explains 
well what Sila means.  :-)))

    I need to study the Tipitaka well.  Well, later, at least...

With Appreciation,
Alex

 
2012 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 5:50am
Subject: lobha for friends

 
  Dear Amara,

> Dear Sarah,
> 
> That's wonderful!  Can't wait!  
> 
> You know who I really miss though?  Susie!  Did
> Jonothan get to see 
> her at all?  
> 
> Thanks for your hosting us all, anumodana to you
> both,
> 
> Amara

yes he had a long chat with Susie & Tadao. This is the
second long chat we've had w/Susie & failed to
persuade her to get a computer at home. She says she
spends too much time in front of it at work & is not
interested. Funnily, on that visit to Victoria 20 yrs
ago she & Tadao were the first people we knew w/ a mac
at home & were the ones that persuaded us to hook up!
Times have changed. Tadao is teaching a Pali course at
work & J. told him how much he could contribute here
too...maybe!

I apologise to those who don't know these people.
Tadao  was a japanese monk in Bkk in the 70s when we
knew him (studying w/ A.Sujin).

What a lot of lobha I have for past friends esp.
dhamma ones)....it's very hard for me to let go....so
much disappointment if they're no longer interested in
studying or discussing dhamma. Still, once the
understanding is there, it's there, however we choose
to lead our lives. We cannot tell from the outer
appearances.

Sarah




 
2013 From:  
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:28pm
Subject: Ch XIV

 
  Contd.

34. Lokadhipateyyata patirupataya attani dhammeca paribhavo vangceti

Lokadhipateyyata - No one can 'customize' the world according to his/her liking.
One has to adjust his/her lifestyle so he/she can live without conflict.

attani dhammeca paribhavo -

When 'adjusting with the world' the moral decipline and qualities should not be
harmed.

Theres the possibility of the internal cheat that tendency to go along the
modernisation and the subsequent adjusting may result in the harm to the morals.

35. mettayana mukhena raago vangceti.

raga as the metta - > refer to visuddhimagga for a story regarding this

36. karunayana mukhena soko vangceti.

sorrow as compassion

37. muditavihara patirupataya pahaso vangceti

mudita - opponent of jealousy....

pahasa- the 'sapitika tanha' based on the 'subha' arammanas of satva and
sankharas.

38. upekkhavihara patirupataya kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata vangceti

kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata - 'losing hope' in kusala
kamma/kusalacchanda...the cheated can live without 'trying' for dhammastudy,
bhavana..he thinks hes developing upekkha.



End.


Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a vangcaka.
The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is incalculable.
The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be aware
 of it, and beware.

 
2014 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:40pm
Subject: Dhamma for children

 
  Dear Dhammastudygroup members

Some of you may be parents or part-time guardians of children. I haven't
read the messages posted during the past year and don't know if the issue of
Dhamma and children has been discussed yet.

I wonder if any other list members are interested in this topic?

I am a parent with two children, a daughter aged about 8.7 years old and a
son aged about 7.1 years old.  Although my wife isn't a self-declared
Buddhist, neither is she a follower of any other religion. She is happy
enough to allow me to introduce Buddhist themes to the children.  While I am
not present in the house, she will even read them Buddhist stories and use
these as examples when explaining possible solutions to daily problems. I am
delighted that both children are very interested in Buddha Dhamma and even
encourage me to read them stories or to tell them something new about
Buddhism.

Although they are exceptionally intelligent for their ages, I think they are
a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. I also don't understand it well enough
myself yet.  I mainly introduce them to the more worldly Buddha Dhamma and
always emphasise the reasoning behind it while trying to provide examples
and links to their daily life so they can see how useful and skilful the the
Buddha Dhamma can be. In other words I don't encourage blind faith even
though young children can be suceptible to this.  I think that in the long
run if understanding is based on reasoning and personal knowledge then it
has a stronger foundation.  The principles of the Buddha Dhamma, the
reasoning and the inherent wisdom of the Buddha Dhamma can be applied in all
areas of life.  This is like an ability or skill that is totally portable,
flexible, multi-use (?new word) and infintely beneficial.

I feel it is our duty as parents to give the most valuable inheritance to
our children before they leave home and before this body perishes.

Perhaps some other list members can offer stories of how they have
introduced Buddha Dhamma to young children or even to older children?

Perhaps some list members might like to discuss the issue of introducing the
Buddha Dhamma to parents or other older relations and dear friends?

sincerely

Michael J Jackson
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/

 
2015 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:51pm
Subject: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Sarah and other interested list members

Due to conditioning there is a tendency to be detailed and 'long-winded'.  I
am not a teacher, only a mostly ignorant student, with some shame and some
good intentions, displaying various degrees of ignorance and knowledge.  May
the following remarks be corrected, criticsed and brought into line with the
Buddha Dhamma.

The main point I was trying to make in my earlier message was that
instructing others about vipassana meditation is a big responsibility with
consequences.  Without a very good knowledge of the Dhamma both from the
Tipitaka and insight through direct experience setting up to be a teacher or
a student of such a teacher is frought with danger despite possibly good
intentions.

The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do, is to recommend to anyone
I meet who is interested in vipassana that they should associate with people
who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of Dhamma, listen to a lot of
Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course run by trained and
experienced practioners, just as I have recommended in this and the earlier
message.

Here are some links to texts for Dhamma teachers and recommendations by the
Lord Buddha that we can read online in English

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html#sorts
Digha Nikaya 12  Lohicca Sutta
(excerpt from a the sutta in which there are other examples of Dhamma
teachers besides the one described below)
There is the case where a certain teacher has not attained the goal of the
contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home life into
homelessness. He, not having attained that goal of the contemplative life,
teaches his disciples, 'This is for your welfare. This is for your
happiness.' His disciples don't listen, don't lend ear, don't put forth an
intent for gnosis. They practice in a way deviating from the teacher's
instructions. He should be criticized, saying, 'You, venerable sir, have not
attained the goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from
the home life into homelessness. Not having attained that goal of the
contemplative life, you teach your disciples, "This is for your welfare.
This is for your happiness." Your disciples don't listen, don't lend ear,
don't put forth an intent for gnosis, and practice in a way deviating from
the teacher's instructions. It's just as if a man were to pursue [a woman]
who pulls away, or to embrace one who turns her back. I say that such a
thing is an evil, greedy deed, for what can one person do for another?' This
is the first teacher who is worthy of criticism in the world, and when
anyone criticizes this sort of teacher, the criticism is true, factual,
righteous, & unblameworthy.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-159.html
Anguttara Nikaya V.159   Udayi Sutta
(another sutta with relevance to aspiring teachers of Dhamma)

Perhaps participating in a list like this we are part student and part
teacher. I prefer to think of myself as student because there is still so
much ignorance, greed and aversion.

A teacher with so much ingnorance, greed and aversion can knowingly and
unknowingly lead others astray, behave badly and bring the Sasana into
disrepute.

When we mention a relevant sutta or personal experience we are not teaching
so much as exchanging information among friends in the Dhamma.

I was attending the Foundation in Bangkok about two weeks ago waiting to
attend the Saturday afternoon English Dhamma Discussion and sat and listened
to Ajahn Santi leading a discussion of Vinaya in Thai.  As always during
these discuussions, the audience is encouraged to go to a microphone and
raise questions. One of the long time followers introduced two new people
(Thais), who had come down from Chiang Mai on the way to enter a meditation
retreat in Bangkok.  Ajahn Santi discouraged them from going to the
meditation retreat and encouraged them instead to listen to the Dhamma, just
as Tahn Ajahn Sujin and Nina Van Gorkom do.  I saw the couple in the
audience again last weekend and assume that they did not go to the
meditation centre after all.  (This Ajahn Santi is a Thai lay man and not
the same as the ethnic German Ajahn Santi who has been a Bhikkhu for 20-30
years  and mostly lives in Chiang Mai).

I agree with Tahn Ajahn Sujin, Ajahn Santi, Nina Van Gorkom and others who
say that we should study the Dhamma so we know more about the phenomena that
arise. I am glad that I had read widely before I started meditating.
However, I disagree with anyone who says that meditation is always a waste
of time or a useless activity.  I understand that phenomena  arise and pass
away naturally without any control and that to sit down thinking 'I am going
to purify this mind of mine' is wrong view.  Nevertheless, I still believe
it is wholesome to sit and watch the breathing to calm the body and mind.  I
believe it is skilful to 'choicelessly' note all the phenomena arising at
six sense doors, as in satipatthana. This is intermittent and there are
moments of sati, moments of day dreaming and so forth.  Sati is not under
any person's control and cannot be fixed or held on to.

I understand that many meditators get confused  between sati and samadhi.
Sati is not holding onto a single aramana or object. Sati arises with other
mental phenonmena. I understand that vipassana isn't about holding onto a
single object like samadhi pratice. I have never done any vipassana
meditation in which I tried to keep focused on one object or aramana.
Vipassana is seeing reality as it appears here and now at the six sense
doors.

It wasn't until I did vipassana that  I became convinced that Buddhist
vipassana is the way.  Books, including the Tipitaka were great to read and
even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the phenomena at the six sense
doors and reflecting on that experience in the light of the Dhamma teaching
that proved it to me.  I am not here referring to any supernatural events,
bright lights, voices of deities etc. I am not here claiming to have
achieved Nibbana or any other supreme state etc.

Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and practice, but I find that
calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of breathing is a lot like a
quick spring clean through the mind and body with opposite effects to those
of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or sex on TV etc. When we
sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting is a blameless activity
and that there is no person sitting or breathing etc.

Sarah wrote:

>What is an experienced practitioner?

I understand that this term may be confusing. I mean some one who has been
on retreats and has the confidence of those who have been on retreats as one
who understands vipassana. This will be a debatable point for many.  Each of
us must make a choice about this.  Followers of this or that meditation
technique or this or that guru will provide different advice. We each have
to decide for our selves.   Of course we should be aware of the Kalama Sutta
and other warnings of the Lord Buddha when choosing a teacher.

Sarah wrote:

>The Buddha taught that vipassana is the development of wisdom so why
>should it be reduced to a technique which is learnt on
>a course?

Vipassana may not be learned on a course too. Some people will benefit while
others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or studying Tahn Ajahn
Sujin's books and talks.  Some will benefit and others will not. Even among
those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little etc.  I don't
think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a course. That
would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to something
learned by reading a book or participating in an internet list.  Vipassana
is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activities.

Sarah wrote:

>I think that when there is no direct understanding of
>the reality that appears at this moment, there is no
>knowledge of what vipassana is. This applies to us
>all.

Precisely.

Sarah wrote:

>If we have the idea of having that understanding
>and being aware next month during a special course, it
>shows a lack of confidence in the power of
>understanding now. It also suggests a lack of
>knowledge about the objects of understanding, the
>realities that need to be known now.

Yes I agree with you here. However, for people who are still finding their
way through the books and various recommendations to this or that teacher, I
think a 'special course' provides a worldly way to begin study and
vipassana.  Then as we begin to really understand, we can see that going on
courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the Buddha Dhamma and
that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is wrong view.

I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not restricted to
special courses or retreats.  But going on a retreat may help the arising of
right view on this point.  I  haven't been on retreats taught in the west or
outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not before then,
everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at all times
regardless.

In response to my suggestion to Sotujana to examine motives for wanting to
teach vipassana Sarah wrote:

>I can't say for anyone else what their various motives
>are and I agree with you that we need to be very
>honest about our different (wholesome and unwholesome)
>motives. However, the greatest gift is the gift of the
>Buddha's teachings.  If we can help others to
>understand a little about the true meaning of
>vipassana (development of understanding), then this is
>very praiseworthy. If we wait until we're experts, we
>may be dead! As I said to Sotujana, I believe that by
>reading, considering and developing more understanding
>we'll be able to help better.

Although the Buddha Dhamma may be the greatest gift from one to another. I
wonder if teaching a 'basic vipassana' course is the same thing as giving
the gift of Buddha Dhamma. All the cautions in the previous message were
attempting to point at this issue. A vipassana meditation course can be
almost anything, depending on what the person who sets up to be teacher
wishes.  Perhaps in ignorance, it is quite possible that very little Buddha
Dhamma is being given, only more ignorance, fantasy, greed, aversion, and so
on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the guise of
Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves and their
students.

After death is rebirth and and death and rebirth and death and so on.  Don't
be so attached to this life. It will soon end and another will begin.  Are
you afraid to go to sleep? You know you will wake because you have a
lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death is not so
obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is certain unless
we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books?  Wouldn't it
be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives eh!

Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in ignorance and suffer
the consequences.

This point is very very important. When we criticise meditators for sitting
and wanting to change themselves etc. are we not being hypocritical for not
criticing those who would want to change other people. Is there not a self
wanting to change some one, here or there, in both instances?  Motives are
good but ignorance is present in both cases.  The presence of ignornace will
create suffering and rebirth etc.

Everything must be done with great care and diligence.

Sarah wrote that there are problems with searching for 'vipassana' on the
internet because it brings up a range of different understandings. Why do
you want to control which understandings appear?  Yes there are some right
and wrong views. How do you know yours are right views?  We each must find
the way.

I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have right view or
at least have right view most of the time. Others might say that they have
more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most teachers will cite
the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the sacred texts etc.
We all interpret things according to our accumulated conditioning. We find
our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your right view is
better than someone else's?

Sarah wrote about spending a long time doing vipassana mediation practices
in India and Sri Lanka but had a wonderful experience when Ann introduced
Nina's book and some tapes :
>After reading the first page of ADL
>I was never inclined to 'meditate' again....Realities
>are anatta, beyond control.  Behind my practice for
>all this time had been a lurking idea of self who
>could be aware.

I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn Ajahn Sujin but
haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and ignorant, I don't
know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the group about
find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It isn't that I
disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the belief.

Practicing vipassana meditation with the lurking idea of a self who can be
aware is probably common with all beginners, no matter how long they have
practiced. This goes for all areas of life and not just meditation. The
lurking idea of self is present for most of us whatever we do. As ordinary
people puttujanna (?spelling) we need to realise this point.

Sarah I hope that you and other Dhammastudygroup list members can be patient
with me.

Sarah thank you for prompting me to consider these issues in more detail and
try to put them into words. I am trying to find a way to explain this
properly to Than Ajahn Sujin and the others in the Saturday English language
discussion group.  It is very hard. I venture to say it is many times harder
than writing a PhD but also far more rewarding.  It may be that at some
point in this struggle I will realise that it is pointless or that it is
over or something like that. Who knows?

Sincerely

Michael
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/

 
2016 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 2:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma for children

 
  Dear Michael,
a very interesting post. As I have three children and am a sol
father at the moment I will add a little.

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > Dear
Dhammastudygroup members
> 
> > Although they are exceptionally intelligent for their ages,
I
> think they are
> a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. 
I think intelligence is not the main issue. Whether they will
ultimately be interested in Dhamma depends on many conditions
including their accumualation from past lives. They may be
genius' but not be interested or they might be slow and yet
through accumulations come to have great confidence in Dhamma.
Paramattha dhamma is hard to understand for all of us. For my
children I stress a lot on kamma and vipaka. I don't talk about
this as different jatis("nature" i.e. kusala-wholesome,
akusala-unwholesome, vipaka-result and kiriya- inoperative) but
we discuus result and cause so that they can differentiate the
two. By learning about kamma there is understanding that
everything is conditioned and this is a strong basis for
understanding anatta.

I also don't understand it
> well enough
> myself yet.  I mainly introduce them to the more worldly
> Buddha Dhamma and
> always emphasise the reasoning behind it while trying to
> provide examples
> and links to their daily life so they can see how useful and
> skilful the the
> Buddha Dhamma can be.

It is all Dhamma. Sometimes we can learn as much from a jataka
story as we can from the Abhidhamma. It is so right that you
show that it is all daily life. Not some exotic ritual they
should do while in a temple.



Robert


 
2017 From: wynn   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 4:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome JimW & Wyn

 
  Reply below.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:40 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome JimW & Wyn


> Wyn, please tell us a little more about yourself too.
> Although I know (from the others' comments) is that
> you've been active on another list. What aspects of
> the Teachings are you interested in?
>
Well, i am not good at introducing myself!!!! What do you want to know about
me? You can sent questions to me privately. Sorry for the inconvenience
caused.

 
2018 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 5:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear michael,
I write only a little now as I guess sarah will reply.
--- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do, is to
> recommend to anyone
> I meet who is interested in vipassana that they should
> associate with people
> who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of Dhamma, listen
> to a lot of
> Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course run by
> trained and
> experienced practioners.

How is one to know who teaching vipassana properly if one has
not studied the teachings in detail? Anyone who goes on any sort
of meditation course will experience different phenomena than
their daily life. They will feel calmer because there are not
the usual distrations, they will experience concentration, right
or wrong, to some degree. And they will hear Dhamma. 
Imagine if they did not hear any Dhamma but were simply given a
technique to practise. They would still have "experiences" which
they would interpret according to their teachers words. As it is
 they do get Dhamma taught to them. But are they able to
separate the benefit of reflecting on Dhamma from the other
effects caused by these special practices. If not there is still
confusion about what the path entails.

I may be wrong but in my study of the Tipitika so far I haven't
read anywhere where laypeople were asked to go on meditaion
retreats. Even in the commenatries and sub-commentaries I have
never seen this. (I know very little pali so if someone has seen
a reference please tell me). If it does turn out that there is
no such thing in the Tipitika doesn't that mean that those who
teach in this way have to provide very good reasons why they do
so? If it is simply a case of getting a group of people in a
congenial situation where they can discuss and listen to Dhamma
and apply according to their bent then of course there would be
situations like this in the tipitika; but I had the idea that
the meditation places are run in very strict ways and people
must follow special techniques?

> Vipassana is seeing reality as it appears here and now at the
> six sense
> doors.

Could you describe this in more detail. 

> 
> It wasn't until I did vipassana that  I became convinced that
> Buddhist
> vipassana is the way.  Books, including the Tipitaka were
> great to read and
> even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the phenomena at
> the six sense
> doors and reflecting on that experience in the light of the
> Dhamma teaching
> that proved it to me. 

Are not the objects arising here and now the same as on a
meditation retreat? 

 > Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and practice, but
I
> find that
> calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of breathing
> is a lot like a
> quick spring clean through the mind and body with opposite
> effects to those
> of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or sex on TV
> etc. When we
> sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting is a
> blameless activity
> and that there is no person sitting or breathing etc.

Sati can arise and be aware at any moment. How are moments of
awareness different while watching TV? Are there not objects
arising at the six doors. While we are lost in the story there
is no awareness but it can certainly occur while watching sex or
even having it. Is there any feeling that you are being
"spiritual" while sitting calmly? Are you sure you are not
mistaking calm and samadhi for sati? 
I think we can say that at times quiet places are conducive to
contemplation, but so easy to cling to them and therefore
neglect the other parts of our life that are more frequent.
Sitting is not a blameless activity if there is any moha or
tanha or dosa. That is why we reduce life to just one moment.
You write that you know there is no one sitting but even
"sitting" is a concept; the realities are changing rapidly. One
moment perhaps sati but then how many without? 


> others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or
> studying Tahn Ajahn
> Sujin's books and talks.  Some will benefit and others will
> not. Even among
> those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little
> etc.  I don't
> think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a
> course. That
> would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to
> something
> learned by reading a book or participating in an internet
> list.  Vipassana
> is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activities.
> 
Yes very true. Actually soon after I met Khun Sujin I went along
to a Zen place as some friends invited me. And we went throough
the rituals and the sitting and the fast walking and the
chanting. I told Khun sujin; and the way I told her indicated
that I thought this was not a time for awareness. She said
"awareness can arise anytime". 
As you note there are more than a few of Khun Sujin's students
who don't seem to get "it". Even amongst those who appear to
undersatnd there can be changes; last year one of her longtime
students and a teacher in his own right suddenly announced he
was going his own way, that he knew better. 
The thing is, as you well explain, the Dhamma is most profound.
One of the things I appreciate about Khun Sujin is that she
stresses this. On the other hand it seems that some of the
meditation people would say it is quite straightforward, simply
follow instructions. It is far too deep for such reductionism.
> 
> 
> Then as we begin to really understand, we can see
> that going on
> courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the
> Buddha Dhamma and
> that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is
> wrong view.

I think we are pretty close in how we see things but how many do
see this? Why not say it from the beginning?


> 
> I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not
> restricted to
> special courses or retreats.  But going on a retreat may help
> the arising of
> right view on this point.  I  haven't been on retreats taught
> in the west or
> outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not
> before then,
> everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at
> all times
> regardless.

To the extent that Dhamma is taught to that extent people will
benefit. If they teach aspects wrongly to that extent people are
misled. If they indicate that vipassana is a technique isn't
that misleading? Do they explain that sati cannot be made to
occur just by sitting and concentrating?
   Encouraging people to recollect the satipatthana? Anyone can
say "please have sati all day". But how? It takes right
conditions.
> 

> 
> Although the Buddha Dhamma may be the greatest gift from one
> to another. I
> wonder if teaching a 'basic vipassana' course is the same
> thing as giving
> the gift of Buddha Dhamma. All the cautions in the previous
> message were
> attempting to point at this issue. A vipassana meditation
> course can be
> almost anything, depending on what the person who sets up to
> be teacher
> wishes.  Perhaps in ignorance, it is quite possible that very
> little Buddha
> Dhamma is being given, only more ignorance, fantasy, greed,
> aversion, and so
> on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the
> guise of
> Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves
> and their
> students.
> 

Well exactly, you write exceedingly well and I agree with every
word.



You know you will wake because you
> have a
> lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death
> is not so
> obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is
> certain unless
> we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books? 
> Wouldn't it
> be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives
> eh!

We have confidence in rebirth by seeing the present moment. For
sure the more there is study of this moment the clearer
conditions become (even though still very unclear).`As one sees
that every moment has conditions how could we think that
conditions could suddenly stop. It is like doubting that the sun
will rise tommorow. 
> 
> Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in
> ignorance and suffer
> the consequences.

Yes teaching vipassana wrongly is a heavy matter.
>
> I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have
> right view or
> at least have right view most of the time. Others might say
> that they have
> more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most
> teachers will cite
> the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the
> sacred texts etc.
> We all interpret things according to our accumulated
> conditioning. We find
> our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your
> right view is
> better than someone else's?

Well put. However we can also find a few teachers who, when they
find that the Tipitika is not in accord with their teaching,
will say something like "theory and practice are different"; or
"this is a special techique that was lost"; or "this is a later
addition to the Tipitika" (meaning  the part that is in conflict
with their ideas isn't really Buddhism); or "the commentaries
misrepresent the Buddha" (meaning "my" way is better than the
ancients.)I guess though from what you have written that these
teachers are not ones that interest you.


> 
> 
> I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn
> Ajahn Sujin but
> haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and
> ignorant, I don't
> know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the
> group about
> find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It
> isn't that I
> disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the
> belief.

Fine and I don't think anyone really wants to convince you
Michael. We will put forward our interpretation of the Dhamma
and hope that others will correct us. Even if we are right how
could you suddenly change your ideas? It is all uncontrollable.
Nonetheless could you give us details where you think Acharn and
Sujin depart from Dhamma and where you are sceptical? If you are
correct it is in all our best interests to know. As far as any
wrong view goes I too never "doubt the sincerity of the belief";
because wrong view of any level is always accomapnied with lobha
(attachment) and this applies to subtle wrong practice which is
a type of view also. And, as I can tell from your thoughful
letter, you are well aware that wrongview might be very refined
indeed but still the level of attachment to it can be of a high
degree. Gayan, today translated the words of a Sri lankan
Abhidhamma teacher who said, at the end of his book explaining
the way we mistake akusala for kusala (unwholesome for
wholesome), that it was quite possible he was under a delusion
of this type somewhere and so be aware and beware. This is the
type of man who has the best interests of Dhamma at heart and is
not one who overestimates (adhimana).
Michael I like your letter alot. You express these matters
clearly. However we need to discuss many more details.
Satipatthana is no easy matter and we help each other by
pointing out the difficulties. 
Robert




2019 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Ch XIV

 
  > Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a 
vangcaka.
> The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is 
incalculable.
> The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept 
it, be aware
>  of it, and beware.

Dear Gayan,

Anumodana in sharing the complete list with us, and if you feel like 
a line by line translation of the Ven. author's book, we would love 
to read it.  Please don't worry if he might have had vancaka 
delusions too, as long as we are not the ariya they would be able to 
arise even while there is the real kusala arising as well, only at 
different moments and possible to different degrees for distinct 
individuals.  Again, many people have benefited from your 
introduction of this list to their attention, so anumodana for this 
opportunity to study it in some detail,

Amara

 
2020 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 11:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Alex,

---  wrote:

> Please give me some
> examples so that I can 
> understand how these Three Baskets complement each
> other in 
> explaining the truth.

I was about a third of the way through reading the PTS
Vinaya when I discoverd dsg, and it's sort of been on
hold since then.  However, it is wonderful reading and
I'm looking forward to getting back to it eventually.

Off hand, I can't offer an example of instruction on
the subject of paramattha dhamma, though I'd be
surprised to find nothing.  In the Buddha's
explanations of his reasons for imposing new rules,
there are often very interesting references to topics
other than discipline.  I'll try to find something
pertinent.

That said, to me, the most immediately obvious way in
which the Vinaya complements the Suttanta and the
Abhidhamma is by actually containing them, in the
sense that the Vinaya IS the structure of the
Bhikku-Sangha which has maintained and perpetuated the
entire Buddhadhamma for twenty-five centuries so that
you and I can still discover it today.  Apparently,
for several hundred years, the Suttanta were preserved
soley by the verbal recitation of monks.  It never
ceases to amaze me that this simple structure,
consisting only of these 226 precepts, has made it
possible for this commune to continue an unbroken
existence for such a long time.  Interestingly, too,
there were corrupt monks aplenty even in the Buddha's
day--the Vinaya is designed in such a way as to take
the inevitability of that fact into account.  The
Sangha survives.  

With the (also inevitable) deterioration of the
teaching, the role of the Bhikku-Sangha in the future
remains to be seen.  Obviously with the availability
of the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma (not to mention the
Vinaya) to laypeople via print and electronic media,
the Bhikku-Sanghas' role as the more or less exclusive
'container' of the Dhamma has obviously changed
already.  Still, gratitude for the role it has played
in the past in carrying the Dhamma all the way into
the twenty-first century where I can find it (not to
mention the great importance the Buddha clearly placed
upon it) is more than enough to inspire me with great
respect for the Vinaya and its living manifestation,
the Bikkhu-Sangha, for the rest of this life.

Forgive the long-winded response.  When I have time,
I'll try to have a look around for references to
paramattha dhamma in the Vinaya.

Regards, Ma'am,

Mike


 
2021 From: A T   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Mike,

   Thank you for taking time answer my elementary question.  Truly, I 
appreciate the survival of the Buddha's Teachings due to the disciplines of 
the Sangha.  Without the Disciplines, no doubt, we cannot have a chance to 
study the Teachings now.

Anumodana, Sir,
Alex

 
2022 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> On the other hand, for people
> like me, who
> are not under any such rule, I may continue gazing
> mindlessly,
> heedlessly, lustfully and blissfully.

This is such a good point.  All the sila are (maybe
foremost) protection.  If observed even without much
understanding, they protect 'oneself' as well as
others from akusala kamma vipaka.  From this
viewpoint, a monk is much better 'protected' than are
you or I...

> This is why understanding the difference between
> concept and
> reality is the key. WE have a story of sila - that
> is we believe
> that 'we" are keeping sila or not keeping sila. But
> sila is
> simply a mental reality, a dhamma, that arises for
> the briefest
> possible moment before passing away.

Yes, discernment again--are we regarding the moment of
sila or the concept of sila?  For me, it's pretty much
always the concept--I know because there's always the
sense that 'I'm' keeping or breaking the sila.  If it
were real awareness, for that moment--no 'I'.

> This is a misunderstanding. There can be moments of
> sila even
> while one is drunk. For example, you are drunk,
> someone offers
> you more beer but sati arises and you refuse it.
> This is sila.
> As always only by breaking down 'life" into just one
> moment can
> we understand this. There truly is no person, only
> moments, of 4
> different jatis. This is the crux of the matter.

Yes, and thanks again for this instructive response.

mn




 
 
2023 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Difficulties

 
  Dear Jim,

Welcome to the group!  I'm looking forward to reading
your perspectives.  I'm not aware of anyone else here
with a Korean Buddhist background.
  
--- Jim Wilson  wrote:

> I am wondering 
> how to gain access to it. Help would be appreciated.

By now someone else has probably already directed you
to:

http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html

I'm new to the group too, and have found this
extremely helpful.  There are several other pali
glossaries available on the internet; if you're
interested please let me know (off-list) and I'll
forward the URL's.

Regards,

Mike


 
2024 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

Just want to take moment to say 'thanks' for this very
thoughtful post.  I'm EXTREMELY glad you haven't been
put off by differences of opinion expressed here. 
I'll try to respond at greater length by and by, and
look forward to reading more from you soon.

Regards,

Mike


 
2025 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

Just want to take moment to say 'thanks' for this very
thoughtful post.  I'm EXTREMELY glad you haven't been
put off by differences of opinion expressed here. 
I'll try to respond at greater length by and by, and
look forward to reading more from you soon.

Regards,

Mike


 
2027 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 3:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Dear Robert, 
An afterthought: When trying this again recently, it occurred to me that I hadn't, in the past, been 'watching the dosa' at all. I'd been attempting to 'watch' the concept of the previously existing dosa, to no effect of course, since sati can't take an unreality as an object (thanks to you all for this information!). In the attempt I'm describing, my attention switched to the present 'hardness'--immediately it was extremely clear that the 'dosa' I thought I'd been 'watching' was long gone--so completely gone that it was exactly as if it had never arisen and. Very interesting... 

Regards, 

mn 





2028 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 4:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching dosa', thinking & concepts

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> As we know, there can be reflection on dosa, for
> example, both wisely and unwisely, with awareness
> and
> without awareness. 

Excellent point, and I really didn't know it until
recently...

> It's very easy to reflect with
> lobha (wishing it away, however subtly) or with
> dosa(again with different degrees) or with that good
> old moha...

...definitely...

> So often when there is an idea of
> watching
> (I'm not saying this is so in Michael J's case),
> there
> is an idea of a 'watcher'...

I'm certainly not either.  In my case however, that
ditthi was (is?) nearly omnipresent... 
 
> I've been meaning to (belatedly as usual) add
> something to some of your earlier posts about
> thinking
> and thoughts (concepts), but I'm not sure whether
> it's
> about to be a  dose of overkill after Robert's &
> Amara's excellent comments...

Please!  'I' needs all the overkill 'I' can get!

> You'll have left many of these behind at the kiddie
> table, so I'm not suggesting there is anything here
> you don't know!

There's plenty, believe me...
 
> O.K. to get a few points quite clear:
> 
> 1. Thinking (not necessarily in words) thinks about
> concepts i.e. stories. Thinking is real, the stories
> are not. 

Right--got that now, didn't before make the
distinction between thinking and concepts.
 
> 2.  When we talk about good or wholesome thoughts,
> we
> are referring to the citta and cetasikas that do the
> thinking, not the thoughts. 

Right!  (ditto for akusala thoughts I presume?)

> As we discussed earlier,
> we can say 'have less dosa', for example, with many
> different kinds of citta and with right or wrong
> view
> about self. 

...right...
 
> I might add that just because there is a lurking
> idea
> of self doesn't mean the thinking cannot be
> wholesome...for example at the moment of
> consideration
> for another, when one is concerned for their
> welfare,
> it's kusala, there is metta (maybe) and it's not
> unique to Buddhists! At that moment the citta is
> calm.

...right...

> 3.  When we say, or the Buddha says, stop the bad
> thoughts or change these for good thoughts, it means
> understand and be aware of the unwholesome thinking
> at
> this moment (or of the unwholesome cetasikas to be a
> little more precise). 

Yes.  A useful distinction and reflection, I think.

> At a thinking/intellectual
> level
> it can also mean think about useful or 'correct'
> concepts and not about useless ones.

...right...
 
> 4.  Whatever is taught, even if a sutta is referring
> to the development of jhanas, the essence is that
> all
> realities are anatta.  Listeners don't necessarily
> need to be told this in every sentence.

True.  Though in my case, it might help...
 
> 5. It is the understanding of realities that is
> important when we use conventional language whether
> we
> are discussing abhidhamma details or the weather.
> The
> daily life and language don't change. The
> understanding does.

...right.
 
> 6. The understanding of samatha can also develop in
> daily life if there is clear understanding of the
> objects of samatha and how these can calm the mind
> at
> this moment. 

I'm beginning to see this--barely.

> With the development of satipatthana,
> there is less and less clinging to different kinds
> of
> kusala, but the understanding understands the value
> of
> any moment of kusala at any level. 

Right!  Understanding understands...
 
> 7. Sometimes we think we may have wasted time
> following a wrong practice for a long time. You may
> feel you didn't learn anything useful in the Zen
> monastery and sometimes I think this about my time
> in
> the temple in Sri lanka. But it's just thinking.
> There
> were moments of understanding at some level, some
> seeds were being planted in order for other
> teachings
> to make more sense later. 

I suppose that's true (actually a Theravada monastery
and a Theravada meditation center.  All my Zen
experience was strictly amateur...).  Some people have
to learn the hard way...  
 
> 8.  We may hear or reflect (as in your  example of
> the
> Twofold Thought Sutta) on the danger of harmful
> thought. For some while hearing this there will be
> conditions for panna to arise at the level of
> satipatthana. For others it may be a condition for
> wholesome thought. It depends on the understanding
> at
> that moment. We need to remember when reading the
> suttas, that most the listeners had developed very
> high levels of panna and did not need to have the
> realities stressed at every point. It's important to
> know the difference between direct awareness and
> thinking.

Understood.
 
> 9. We shouldn't underestimate the power of panna. if
> we think we have to work it all out intellectually
> first in detail and that it's too difficult to be
> directly aware of a reality such as seeing or
> visible
> object at this moment, this is a condition for there
> not to be any awareness or understanding!

Right--a dangerous obstacle...
 
> 10. As I'm sure you realize by now, the panna is the
> key, rather than the cetana, out of the 'vicious
> cycle' you and Sukin discussed sometime back.

Yes!  I'm thinking of it as 'discernment' lately.
 
> 10. you suggested in a post that we need to
> 'deliberately' pick up a micchaditthi that's less
> miccha than what you just put down...closer and
> closer
> - (sorry I'm not quoting you exactly)...

...no, that's close enough...

> but I think
> it's not so much a matter of level steps as hiking
> up
> and down some rugged mountains (hopefully each one
> higher than the last!)..There are moments of kusala
> at
> different levels and then moments of akusala at
> different levels. This remains true whether we're in
> the zen monastery, at the astrologer's or here. The
> only difference is that with the development of more
> understanding, amongst those mountain peaks, there
> can
> be moments of this higher level of kusala
> (satipatthana) which slowly turns the spotlight on
> the
>  other mountains and crevices and valleys ....

Interesting simile.  I'll have to mull this one
over...
 
> 11. People before the Buddha's time attained jhanas
> and high levels of samatha practice. This was not
> something new. The teaching of anatta and the
> development of vipassana was.

Right!

> Mike, I really don't know if anything here is of any
> help to you or anyone else. Pls pick me up on any
> mistakes I've made or anything that is
> confusing....sometimes I say what is clear or
helpful
> to myself but the opposite to others! 

This is all of tremendous help.  I still am definitely
new at this and can use all the help I can get.

> As Gayan would
> say, I'm just going to click anyway!


And as I said to Gayan, I'm glad you clicked.

Thanks as always,

Mike


 
2029 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Dear Mike,
When dosa isn't present it isn't present. Now whether you watch,
don't watch, try to have it don't try to have it, dosa cannot
stay all the time. It has to have the right conditions to be be
present. Even someone who has never heard any dhamma, done any
meditation or whatever will know there are times when dosa is
absent and when it is not. Most of the time when it is absent
there is lobha. And this is life: vipaka (result of kamma)
arising at the doors and then following that cittas with either
dosa, or moha or lobha (aversion, ignorance, greed). Because of
these defilements we do this and do that and do other things
too; and these condition new vipaka. This is the round of birth
and death and it never stops even for a moment over all our
billions of lives. 
Sometimes after the vipaka we have not defilements but kusala
(wholesomeness). This can be divided into two types: with
panna(wisdom) or without. And because of this we do such things
as giving, or we develop samattha and all the other good
actions. However, these also condition vipaka and so keep the
round of birth and death spinning. Only the development of
satipatthana can  understand it all and only that special type
of awareness leads away from rebirth. 
Even when we feel very unhappy there can be moments of sati
associated with panna arising in between the other cittas with
dosa and thus some understanding of it all as anatta.

Now was what you described sati of satipatthana? Really I can't
say- these matters have to be known each for oneself. If it was
good - but any clinging to it won't help it come in the future.
As your example perhaps indicates when citta takes another
object, such as a parammattha dhamma (eg hardness) and sees it
as paramattha there cannot be dosa at that time because dosa
relies so much on avijja (ignorance) "darting among concepts."
The more the world is broken down into paramattha dhammas the
less avijja runs among concepts. Some people have more
tendencies to be aware of colour than of hardness for example,
others (as Amara noted recently) completely neglect awareness of
dhammas when eating. This is all by accumulations and
conditions. 
I used to be very careful about citta - was it with dosa or
lobha etc. In hong kong Sarah reminded me that these kilesa are
conditioned by the different objects that arise at the senses
doors . This was very useful as it conditioned more study of the
different dhammas at the doors - such as color and sound. I
still remember her saying this over 9 years ago - it was that
useful. Jonothan once indicated to me that when we are very
concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a clinging to
self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma into psychology.
(Actually he said much more and much better so please ask him to
explain).
Anyway as you are seeing the study of realities is fascinaiting
and provided it is done without desire (such as wanting results
or trying to change things) most useful. Easy to do with the
idea of self doing it though.
Robert

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> An afterthought:  When trying this again recently, it occurred
> to me that I hadn't, in the past, been 'watching the dosa' at
> all.  I'd been attempting to 'watch' the concept of the
> previously existing dosa, to no effect of course, since sati
> can't take an unreality as an object (thanks to you all for
> this information!).  In the attempt I'm describing, my
> attention switched to the present 'hardness'--immediately it
> was extremely clear that the 'dosa' I thought I'd been
> 'watching' was long gone--so completely gone that it was
> exactly as if it had never arisen and.  Very interesting...
> Regards,
> mn
> 
> 



 
2030 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Dear Robert,

I had some misgivings about this as soon as I'd sent
it.  Something didn't seem quite right.  I'll cut up
your response a little to illustrate:

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> When dosa isn't present it isn't present. Now
> whether you watch,
> don't watch, try to have it don't try to have it,
> dosa cannot
> stay all the time. It has to have the right
> conditions to be be
> present. 

Of course...

> Even someone who has never heard any
> dhamma, done any
> meditation or whatever will know there are times
> when dosa is
> absent and when it is not. Most of the time when it
> is absent
> there is lobha. 

Yes, or moha (maybe even more often?)

> And this is life: vipaka (result of
> kamma)
> arising at the doors and then following that cittas
> with either
> dosa, or moha or lobha (aversion, ignorance, greed).

...exactly...

> Because of
> these defilements we do this and do that and do
> other things
> too; and these condition new vipaka. This is the
> round of birth
> and death and it never stops even for a moment over
> all our
> billions of lives.

...right...
 
> Sometimes after the vipaka we have not defilements
> but kusala
> (wholesomeness). This can be divided into two types:
> with
> panna(wisdom) or without. And because of this we do
> such things
> as giving, or we develop samattha and all the other
> good
> actions. However, these also condition vipaka and so
> keep the
> round of birth and death spinning. Only the
> development of
> satipatthana can  understand it all and only that
> special type
> of awareness leads away from rebirth.

Yes--my working hypothesis, anyway.  
 
> Even when we feel very unhappy there can be moments
> of sati
> associated with panna arising in between the other
> cittas with
> dosa and thus some understanding of it all as
> anatta.

Yes...
 
> Now was what you described sati of satipatthana?

No, I don't think so.  But I can't be sure--most
notable was a sense of surprise at the sudden absence
of dosa.  Still, this was obviously retrospective.

> Really I can't
> say- these matters have to be known each for
> oneself. If it was
> good - but any clinging to it won't help it come in
> the future.

Right!

> As your example perhaps indicates when citta takes
> another
> object, such as a parammattha dhamma (eg hardness)
> and sees it
> as paramattha there cannot be dosa at that time
> because dosa
> relies so much on avijja (ignorance) "darting among
> concepts."

Yes...

> The more the world is broken down into paramattha
> dhammas the
> less avijja runs among concepts. 

Right--just moments (though I'm not claiming to know
this from direct experience!)

> Some people have
> more
> tendencies to be aware of colour than of hardness
> for example,
> others (as Amara noted recently) completely neglect
> awareness of
> dhammas when eating. This is all by accumulations
> and
> conditions. 
> I used to be very careful about citta - was it with
> dosa or
> lobha etc. In hong kong Sarah reminded me that these
> kilesa are
> conditioned by the different objects that arise at
> the senses
> doors. 

(in part--correct?)

> This was very useful as it conditioned more
> study of the
> different dhammas at the doors - such as color and
> sound. I
> still remember her saying this over 9 years ago - it
> was that
> useful. 

Thanks--I'll bear that in mind...

> Jonothan once indicated to me that when we
> are very
> concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a
> clinging to
> self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma into
> psychology.

Yes, this hits the nail on the head, and accounts for
my misgiving.  Clearly there was the desire present to
be dosa-free, and the idea that I could 'achieve'
that.

> (Actually he said much more and much better so
> please ask him to
> explain).

I hope he might pick up on this...

> Anyway as you are seeing the study of realities is
> fascinating

oh, yes--

> and provided it is done without desire (such as
> wanting results

Hmm...well, maybe some day...

> or trying to change things) most useful. Easy to do
> with the
> idea of self doing it though.

Yes, and that's the crux I think.  Oh, well--just an
interesting moment--helpful inasmuch as it led to this
instructive response.  Thanks, as always...

mn


 
2031 From:  
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch XIV

 
  Dear Amara,

     Thanks very much for your compassionate comments.

Actually I dont have any doubts about the venerable because the Warning Line is
his.
He himself warns us that he might be under the influence of a vancaka, because
mind is so diversy and tricky.
Actually there are  no particular dhammas as vancakas, but akusalas become
vancakas because of there cheating ability
So he says the number of vancakas is incalculable.

What he has done here is commenting on the 38 lines in Nettippakarana atthakatha
using his abhidhamma knowledge.

As the focus must be set on the lines in netti-a, the Pali experts can interpret
those lines, using their experience and knowledge.

About the translation, what I did was translate the words in his book,
What I intended was to introduce the title and subject of vancaka to my dhamma
friends.
But I cant guarantee that i have translated them to what the venerable has
intended.
I am not a translator and am not an expert in any language.

So I think that as now you know about the vancaka, it is 'safe' to get the help
of experts so the exact meaning of the pali phrases in netti commentary can be
extracted.

It would be really brilliant if a sinhala-english expert can translate the works
of the venerable, they are really a treasure.



rgds.

 
2032 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch XIV

 
  Thanks for the clear explanation Gayan. Amara will, I guess,
pass this on to the  Pali commitee.  I am one of those who was
born on the outer borders of Jambudipa where it is (or was-
internet is changing things) hard to hear Dhamma. Also I am not
like Michael or Jon who can listen and read in Thai, so must
miss much of the wondeful teachings. You have the advantage of
being able to read and listen in English and Singhala - it is
very helpful. 
One thing I do have is the kamma condition to be able to read
your translation which was really great. I hope it can be edited
and put on the web for all someday.
Robert
---  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Amara,
> 
>      Thanks very much for your compassionate comments.
> 
> Actually I dont have any doubts about the venerable because
> the Warning Line is
> his.
> He himself warns us that he might be under the influence of a
> vancaka, because
> mind is so diversy and tricky.
> Actually there are  no particular dhammas as vancakas, but
> akusalas become
> vancakas because of there cheating ability
> So he says the number of vancakas is incalculable.
> 
> What he has done here is commenting on the 38 lines in
> Nettippakarana atthakatha
> using his abhidhamma knowledge.
> 
> As the focus must be set on the lines in netti-a, the Pali
> experts can interpret
> those lines, using their experience and knowledge.
> 
> About the translation, what I did was translate the words in
> his book,
> What I intended was to introduce the title and subject of
> vancaka to my dhamma
> friends.
> But I cant guarantee that i have translated them to what the
> venerable has
> intended.
> I am not a translator and am not an expert in any language.
> 
> So I think that as now you know about the vancaka, it is
> 'safe' to get the help
> of experts so the exact meaning of the pali phrases in netti
> commentary can be
> extracted.
> 
> It would be really brilliant if a sinhala-english expert can
> translate the works
> of the venerable, they are really a treasure.
> 
> 
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 
> 



 
2033 From:  
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 3:26pm
Subject: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear friends,

     I want to make a request now.

It would be an immense help for the ppl in the list here if you can discuss the
suttas and teachings about the 'samma ditthi'.
This will really help in understanding the paramatta dhammas.

Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has explaind how a training
person in the 8 fold path looks at things.

I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in an earlier post, I like to
hear your understandings and comments on the suttas on samma ditthi.

as in Pali what a puthujjana does is ' mannati'
where as a sekha would do ' ma manni'
and an arahant would do 'na mannati'.


Thanks

 
2034 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 6:28pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > It would be an immense help for the ppl in the list here if you can 
discuss the
> suttas and teachings about the 'samma ditthi'.
> This will really help in understanding the paramatta dhammas.


Dear Gayan,

You have touched upon the heart of the Buddha's teachings, 
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika) or right view or understanding of 
realities as they really are, the only way to end samsara and the 
only thing other religions ignore.  While faith is required in all 
other religions, the Buddha encourages us to prove his words 
ourselves, and instead of telling us that he is a God who can help 
us in exchange for our faith and obedience, he tells us that we must 
do the work ourselves as he had done...  Although his immense 
beneficience in helping others is beyond words, and we only have to 
study his hard earned teachings to follow him on the path that he 
discovered after zillions of eons of preparation.  Panna on the most 
basic intellectual level would be to know about kamma, about how 
things arise, how they are under no one's  control, even the 
Buddha's- otherwise he would have made us all enlightened without 
having to do anything, about the eternal samsara caused by kamma for 
each individual, and about how to end it all, with the right 
conditions.  Most importantly, how to accumulate the right 
conditions, or panna to the level required in order to eliminate 
wrong view entirely, and after that, all kilesa, even the finest and 
most hidden ones.  

I am sure many people such as Robert, better versed in quoting the 
Tipitaka than I am, would come up with many suttas to help you 
understand this, so for my part I would like you to look at some of 
Khun Sujin's explanations, I quote from Summary of Paramatthadhamma 
Part VIII Vipassana-Bhavana in the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>:

 For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of 
realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from 
the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the
truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through 
the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very 
moment.  It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, 
tasting, knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no 
knowledge of the true characteristics of realities as they truly 
are.  The Buddha manifested the realities that arise, appear and 
evolve through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind 
every day at each instant in detail, so one might see the harm of 
akusala-dhamma and samsara-vatta.  Since one does not see the harm, 
one would not endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is
the panna that fully realizes the characteristics of realities 
appearing as they truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. 

The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana 
differ in the aramana and the levels of panna.  The former has 
aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful 
upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a 
unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as 
aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take 
note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until 
it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or 
the selves.  The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a 
brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi.  The result of vipassana-bhavana 
is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as
they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the 
level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the 
level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all 
kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. 

 Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be straight and true and 
know that they still have all the kilesa.  They must not desire to 
eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person cannot
precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because they must first 
eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, that clings to 
realities that arise concurrently as the selves, entities and 
people.  Only then would other kilesa be eradicated in sequence, 
respectively. 

 Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, 
entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects?  The 
same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense 
contact. 

 Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very 
rapidly at all times.  The Buddha manifested the way to practice to 
develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is 
only one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely 
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), 
samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta 
(samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika),
samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) 
samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). 

At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path 
(excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 
virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) 
would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that 
sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either 
nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense or mind.  And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently 
with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine 
and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or 
rupa-dhamma  little by little, regularly and constantly until there 
is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. 

 Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana.  When 
sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct
realities as 

 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
kayanupassana-satipatthana. 

 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
vedananupassana-satipatthana. 

3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
cittanupassana-satipatthana. 

4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 

(...)

It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the eight ariya-magga 
or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be mindful of the 
characteristics of each reality that arises and appears through
the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind each day to arise, 
according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the akusala-dhamma 
accumulated over such a long period of time in the samsara-vatta, 
even including this lifetime each day since our birth.  Those who 
understand the causes and results of realities as they truly are 
would therefore be persistent in listening to, studying and 
examining the dhamma to understand about realities through the eyes, 
ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until it becomes paccaya to 
compose satipatthana to arise and to be correctly mindful, take 
note, examine and study the characteristics of the realities 
appearing according to what one has heard and understood.  All 
dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, are 
anatta.  They could arise when there are paccaya or when the
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there 
would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, 
noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing 
through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. 

Those who develop panna are straightforward.  When satipatthana 
arises they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati.  
When satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The perseverance 
that arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, 
takes note and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma that appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right
perseverance): sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and 
anurakkhanapadhana. 

    Sanvarapadhana is the perseverance in not allowing 
akusala-dhamma (that has not arisen) to arise. 
    Pahanapadhana is the perseverance in abandoning akusala-dhamma 
that has arisen. 
    Bhavanapadhana is the perseverance in making kusala-dhamma (that 
has not arisen) arise.
    Anurakkhanapadhana is the perseverance in developing to the most 
steadfast and complete the kusala-dhamma that has already arisen. 

The perseverance that form the 4 sammappadhana would be basis for 
the success, together with other sampayutta-dhamma that arise 
concurrently with realities that are the 4 iddhipada: 

 1) Chandiddhipada is the chanda-cetasika or the satisfaction from 
noting, examining and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma appearing as they really are.
(Sammohavinodani Atthakatha Vibbhangapakarana 
Iddhipadavibbhanganidesa)Achieving results based on gratification is 
like a minister's son who is not remiss in his duties in serving the 
king, thus receiving titles to that affect. 

  2) Viriyiddhipada is the viriya-cetasika, the perseverance in 
taking note, examining, knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma 
and rupa-dhamma appearing. 1Achieving results based on perseverance 
like a minister's son who pleases the king by being indomitable in 
his functions thus receiving titles. 

 3) Cittiddhipada is the citta. 2Achieving results based on citta is 
like a minister's son who receives titles because of his right birth 
and nature. 

 4) Vimansiddhipada is the panna-cetasika that ponders, notices, 
examines the characteristics of realities. 3Achieving results based 
on panna is like a minister's son who receives titles based on his 
knowledge. 

 These minister's sons all achieve their titles by right of their 
respective efficiencies. 

The functions of these 4 iddhipada depend on the accumulation and 
development of the five indriya, which are the principal realities 
in leading towards samma-magga, the right way to practice. The five 
indriya: 

 1) Saddhindriya is the saddha-cetasika, the principal element of 
having saddha to be mindful of the characteristics of realities 
appearing. 

 2) Viriyindriya is the viriya-cetasika, the principal element of 
not being lazy, not being discouraged to be mindful of realities 
appearing. 

 3) Satindriya is the sati-cetasika, the principal element of not 
forgetting, being mindful of the characteristics of realities 
appearing. 

 4) Samadhindriya is the ekaggata-cetasika, the principal element of 
being steadfast in the arammana appearing. 

 5) Pannindriya is the panna-cetasika, the principal element of 
pondering, examining, and taking note of the characteristics of 
realities appearing. 

When the five indriya have been developed to become a strong reality 
unwavering in the study of any arammana appearing, it becomes the 5 
bala (powerful realities) namely 

 1) Saddha-bala          unperturbed by lack of faith. 
 2) Viriya-bala            unperturbed by discouragement. 
 3) Sati-bala                  unperturbed in mindfulness of any 
reality that appears. 
 4) Samadhi-bala         unperturbed by agitation and instability. 
 5) Panna-bala            unperturbed by ignorance. 

 For saddha, viriya, sati and samadhi to become powerful realities, 
panna must be bala from {nowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma 
and rupa-dhamma more thoroughly so it is unperturbed to be mindful 
of how the instant of seeing is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The 
same applies to the instant of hearing, smelling, tasting and 
knowing bodysense contact.  When panna which has arisen with sati 
that is mindful of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma has matured to become vipassana-nana of the respective 
level, it would be composed of the seven bojjhanga, the principal 
dhamma in the enlightenment of the ariya-sacca-dhamma.  The seven 
bojjhanga are: 

 1) Sati-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: sati-cetasika 
 2) Dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: panna-cetasika 
 3) Viriya-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: viriya-cetasika 
 4) Piti-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: piti-cetasika 
 5) Passaddhi-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: kaya-passaddhi-cetasika 
and citta-passaddhi-cetasika
 6) Samadhi-sambojjhanga 
     The principal element of enlightenment: ekaggata-cetasika 
 7) Upekkha-sambojjhanga 
     The principal element of enlightenment: 
tatramajjhattata-cetasika 

 When panna has been fully developed and ready to clearly realize 
the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the principal elements of 
enlightenment which are the seven bojjhanga, and complete with the 
37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4 sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, 
the 4 iddhipada, the 5 indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 
constituents of the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the 
8 constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely 
samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika, samma-vaca-cetasika,
samma-kammanta-cetasika, samma-ajiva-cetasika, 
samma-vayama-cetasika, samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would 
arise to clearly realize the reality of nibbana as magga-vithi 
through the mano-dvara...

(End Quote) 


In short, right understanding has many level, but all are in regards 
to knowing realities as they really are, which, when powerful enough 
through accumulated studies of realities as they present themselves, 
even now as you read this message, which is only sight and seeing, 
with different colors appearing and long periods of thoughts 
interposing as you consider the reasonings, as well as other 
realities that appear at this moment, all are right view which can 
be accumulated, on the intellectual and eventually on the 
experiencing level, to gradually strengthen and develop panna.

I hope this has not been more information than needed, anumodana in 
your excellent question,

Amara

 
2035 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 7:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan,

---  wrote:

 
> Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has
> explaind how a training
> person in the 8 fold path looks at things.
> 
> I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in
> an earlier post, I like to
> hear your understandings and comments on the suttas
> on samma ditthi.

I'm really looking forward to whatever discussion your
request might engender.  In case anyone would like to
have a look on-line,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn1.html



 
2036 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  --- Michael J Jackson  wrote:
> Dear Sarah and other interested list members
> 
> Due to conditioning there is a tendency to be
> detailed and 'long-winded'.  I
> am not a teacher, only a mostly ignorant student,
> with some shame and some
> good intentions, displaying various degrees of
> ignorance and knowledge.  May
> the following remarks be corrected, criticsed and
> brought into line with the
> Buddha Dhamma.
> 
Dear Michael,

Thank you very much for considering my post in such
detail. Pls be as 'long-winded' as you like. I think
this is a really important area of discussion and it's
very helpful for me too to consider your points and
try to voice 'my' understanding. We're all ignorant
students most the time but this is a good place to
help each other a little along the way. I can tell
you're going to be a great asset to the group and I'm
sure you'll adding plenty of interest to the
discussions in Bkk!

If you don't mind, I'll refer to the points you've
raised in due course....I'm very busy with all the
kids I teach (6-19yrs!) at the moment.

I'll also look forward to meeting you shortly in Bkk.
We'll be there 2nd and 3rd Dec (before Cambodia) and
9th,10th,11th Dec (after Cambodia). Nina VG will also
be there then! Amara & Elle are in charge of the
discusion schedules (I believe).

Pls keep up your comments meantime and shout anytime
you disagree. You've studied in depth and considered
the Teachings far more extensively than most.

Best rgds for now,
Sarah

p.s. Sukin, do hope you're fully recovered now & we
look f/w to meeting you shortly too.


 
2037 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear gayan,
Good topic; the only problem being that it is so important that
it is hard to know where to begin. Amara's passage from Acharn
sujin is maybe a good basis to ask for clarification or make
comments on.
The Mulapariyaya sutta is deep. It is one of those suttas that
is a must to read again and again. And only by relying on the
Atthakattha and Tikas can we get a proper grasp of it (to the
extent that acumulations allow). Fortunately there is a
comprehensive translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which he gives a
passage from the sutta, then the commentary and then the Tika.
It is very readable and reasonably priced: The Root of Existence
Buddhist Publication Society.
here is just a brief taste: p40 AN UNINSTRUCTED WORDLING (the
actual sutta). And commentary: "Herein he needs to be taught
because he posseses neither learning(agama) nor spiritual
achievement (adhigama). ..Because he has neglected to study,
question and discriminate the aggegates (khandas),
elements(dhatus) sense bases(ayatanas), truths, laws of
conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc, nor spiritual
achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be
achieved by practice he is said to be "uninstructed"..
Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Gayan,
> 
> ---  wrote:
> 
>  
> > Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has
> > explaind how a training
> > person in the 8 fold path looks at things.
> > 
> > I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in
> > an earlier post, I like to
> > hear your understandings and comments on the suttas
> > on samma ditthi.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to whatever discussion your
> request might engender.  In case anyone would like to
> have a look on-line,
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn1.html
> 



 
2038 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:08pm
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  > I'll also look forward to meeting you shortly in Bkk.
> We'll be there 2nd and 3rd Dec (before Cambodia) and
> 9th,10th,11th Dec (after Cambodia). Nina VG will also
> be there then! Amara & Elle are in charge of the
> discusion schedules (I believe).


Dear Sarah,

I'm afraid I'm only involved as far as announcement of the schedule 
and not in its setting, which would be up to Elle and Khun Sujin 
mainly, I guess!

Will keep you as posted as I am,

Amara

 
2039 From: Michael J. Jackson   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:52pm
Subject: Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Robert, Mike, Sarah and other list members interested in this 
thread

Reading your respective responses to my previous long-winded remarks 
created happy feelings and long consecutive moments of maana.  

I shall stand by for further comments before responding. 

Please note that if you meet me in person, you will probably be 
disappointed.  The act of writing allows me time to edit so that the 
finished text only appears thoughtful and well considered - a mere 
illusion. I can get quotes, check sources, check consistency and 
logic, check  coverage and completeness and so on. This is not so 
easy to do when talking, especially in a group with  many people 
eager to make a contribution or ask a question. Members of the 
Bangkok English speaking group will attest to the fact that I have 
frequently 'put my foot in my mouth' during meetings.  I usually try 
to apologise later on. It is also possible to view such writing or 
attempts to speak as showing off.  

Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or lobha? I think this 
question could lead to a new thread on its own.  Among other things I 
guess it all depends on whether there is a self involved. 

I must also take this opportunity to praise Tahn Ajahn Sujin's 
ability to answer, what seem to me to be, difficult questions quite 
spontaneously with no apparent hesitation in Thai and only a litte in 
English when searching for the right English word.  Furthermore, the 
speech is gentle, polite and precise. This naturally inspires 
confidence and admiration among listeners.

Michael J Jackson
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/

 
2040 From: Michael J. Jackson   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:16pm
Subject: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  Dear Dhammastudylist members

I hope you don't mind me announcing this conference here on this list.

If it is against protocol, let me know so I will not do it again.

The 21st General Conference of the World Fellowship of Buddhists 
(WFB) is being held in Bangkok, Thailand from 5-10 December 2543
(2000).  The theme of the conference is 'Buddhism and Globalization'. 
This signifies the spread of Buddhism throughout the entire world and 
its transcendence of all boudaries. The theme of the seminar is 'Main 
Concept and Role of the World Buddhist University'. The World 
Buddhist University (WBU) will be inaugurated on Saturday, 9 December 
2543 in Bangkok. 

The WFB holds the General Conference every 2 years. The General 
Conference will be held at the Imperial Tara Hotel, 18/1 Sukhumvit 
Soi 26, Bangkok, 10110, Thailand. Tel. (662) 259 2900, Fax (662)259 
2896-7, Email: protectID, The Imperial Impala Hotel, 9 
Sukhumvit Soi 24, Bangkok 10110, Thailand Tel: (662) 2590053, Fax: 
(662)2588747.  The opening ceremony is scheduled to take place at the 
Thailand Cultural Centre on 6 December 2543.

The web site for the World Buddhist University is still being 
constructed. However, some of you may be interested to visit the WFB 
web site at:  http://www.wfb-hq.org/  for more information about the 
WFB and other WFB contact details.  

Michael J Jackson

 
2041 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:31pm
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  > The 21st General Conference of the World Fellowship of Buddhists 
> (WFB) is being held in Bangkok, Thailand from 5-10 December 2543
> (2000).  The theme of the conference is 'Buddhism and 
Globalization'. 
> This signifies the spread of Buddhism throughout the entire world 
and 
> its transcendence of all boudaries. The theme of the seminar 
is 'Main 
> Concept and Role of the World Buddhist University'. The World 
> Buddhist University (WBU) will be inaugurated on Saturday, 9 
December 
> 2543 in Bangkok. 
> 
> The WFB holds the General Conference every 2 years. The General 
> Conference will be held at the Imperial Tara Hotel, 18/1 Sukhumvit 
> Soi 26, Bangkok, 10110, Thailand. Tel. (662) 259 2900, Fax (662)259 
> 2896-7, Email: ProtectID, The Imperial Impala Hotel, 9 
> Sukhumvit Soi 24, Bangkok 10110, Thailand Tel: (662) 2590053, Fax: 
> (662)2588747.  The opening ceremony is scheduled to take place at 
the 
> Thailand Cultural Centre on 6 December 2543.


Dear Michael,

As our Cambodian trip will be from the 4th to the 9th, as far as I 
remember, you will have to represent us at the conference, if you 
are attending, and please be our observer as well, so you can tell 
us all about it!  We count on you to ask them a lot of questions, 
for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray from realities we 
would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they can tell you 
about the realities before them, we should rejoice!!!  (Don't tell 
them this though!)  Either way it should be interesting, enjoy,

Amara

 
2042 From: habu   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:40pm
Subject: new web site: zen-forum.com - communicate about zen, buddhism and related topics

 
  welcome

since 15th november 2000, the zen-forum is online.
it is a new place on the internet for everyone interested in zen and
buddhism.

it is for you:
the novice and the master, the ones asking and the experienced, followers
and critics.

if you know something, share it - if not: ask!
please use zen-forum, don't be shy. others are waiting for your input.

the structure
we decided to put up a very basic structure and are awaiting your
contributions on developing the structure of the forum. the zen-forum
shall be a dynamical platform for conversation. we can add more and
change forums any time.

the beginning
of course, the beginning is not easy.
nobody wants to make the first post.
please post anyway.

we hope, you like it...

http://www.zen-forum.com/

 
2043 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Friends,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 

 wrote:

> Fortunately there
> is a
> comprehensive translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which
> he gives a
> passage from the sutta, then the commentary and then
> the Tika.
> It is very readable and reasonably priced: The Root
> of Existence
> Buddhist Publication Society.

A printable order form for Bhikku Bodhi's translation
is available @:

http://members.aol.com/uparatana/BookService/section1.html

Internet orders are not yet available; price listed is
only $6.50 (US?)


 
2044 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:10pm
Subject: Re: new web site: zen-forum.com - communicate about zen, buddhism and related topics

 
  > welcome
> 
> since 15th november 2000, the zen-forum is online.
> it is a new place on the internet for everyone interested in zen and
> buddhism.
> 
> it is for you:
> the novice and the master, the ones asking and the experienced, 
followers
> and critics.
> 
> if you know something, share it - if not: ask!


Welcome to our group too, Habu,

How wonderful that you welcome questions, may I ask what 'Zen' 
means?  Does the word have Japanese roots?  It does not look like a 
Pali word to me, I have always wondered where it came from and about 
its etymology.  Or is it Chinese?  Is it true that Japanese Buddhism 
was linked to the feudal system for a very long time, and many 
Shoguns used the order to spy for them?  I have always been 
fascinated by Ninja stories and such (more lobha!)  One of my best 
memories of my visit to Japan was a tea ceremony in a most beautiful 
garden in a tiny hut with a rough beam that was about 2000 years 
old!  I did not get the spiritual part very much but the ceremony 
was beautifully executed, with very precise gestures and utensils, 
though the hut was tiny and the entrance really minute!  Maybe you 
could remind us of the meanings of the rituals?  

Looking forward very much to your reply,

Amara

 
2046 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Difficulties

 
  Jim

Welcome to the group, and thanks for joining.

> I am enjoying it, but i am also having a problem
> that i would 
> appreciate feedback on.  The main problem is the
> language; i just 
> lack familiarity with the very large number of pali
> terms freely 
> distributed on the posts here.  I studied Buddhism
> in Korea, and i 
> have a large vocabulary of Chinese and Chinese
> derived Buddhist 
> terminology; but it doesn't seem to map very well to
> this discussion 
> going on here.  

This is a problem we all have to one degree or
another.    Just stick with it and you will find that
most of the terms used recur quite frequently and can
be easily picked up, especially with the help of some
of the reference materials others have already
mentioned.

Look forward to your participation.

Jonothan


 
2047 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,
--- "Michael J. Jackson"  wrote: > Dear
> . 
 I shall stand by for further comments before responding. 
>

We will certainly look forward to your comments and criticisms
of our words. Probably the harder you are on us the better; it
really can condition reflection. And you may well uncover a few
(many?) hidden blindspots where we are clinging individually or
collectively (I hope so).

 .  
> 
> Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or lobha? I think
> this 
> question could lead to a new thread on its own.  Among other
> things I 
> guess it all depends on whether there is a self involved. 
> 
We have been circling samsara for so so long. WE are simply
kilesa (defilements), squeezed into an attractive or not so
attractive sheath. So almost all the time there are defilements
seeping out of this tightly packed wrapper. And Dhamma
discussions are no exception.` The only difference is that there
are or can be a few more moments when the stream of defilements
are interupted. It is great that you see that sometimes
(often?)there is lobha(attachment) or mana (conceit), as one of
the functions of wisdom is to know this. All that has to be done
is to see it and gradually this seeing will lead away from it.
IF we can't see it then we are in trouble; then there is no
warning system; no way to escape. Once in Bangkok when I was
having a discussion I told a friend that I have conceit at times
when I talk about Dhamma. She was shocked and told me I must
never have conceit when talking about Dhamma. This is too
idealistic and takes no account of the way things really are.
Conditions are such that conceit and attachment and dosa
(aversion) will arise at any time. I am not saying "go out and
have conceit, attachment and aversion as much as you like" but
when we know only the arahant has eliminated conceit we realise
it must be there; better to be awake about this than thinking we
are better than we really are. Conceit in particular can be so
subtle that it is hard to know. Still it is often there,
especially when we do something good and know that we have done
so. This does NOT mean: "don't do good because conceit will
follow." Learn about conceit, that is the best way, I think. 
Robert



 
2048 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:19pm
Subject: On Second Thought...

 
  Dear Friends,

Since Robert recommends it, and since it may be much
more practical to do it from here than from wherever
you are, I'd be very glad to bear the expense of
obtaining and mailing a copy of Bhikku Bodhi's
Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, via airmail, to
anyone in the group who'd like to participate in an
e-discussion.  Seems to me this might be valuable as
an introduction to the study of commentaries for
people (like myself) who have never even read one...!

If you'd like a copy, please send your mailing address
to:

protectID

and thanks in advance for the opportunity.

mn 


 
2049 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,

Very briefly,

--- "Michael J. Jackson" 
wrote:

> Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or
> lobha? 

In my case, most definitely!  There is no question
that the strongest motivating force for my
participation is the unwholesome desire for acceptance
and approval by the membership.  And the maana
cetasika you mentioned.  Forget about alcohol!  I can
get maana-drunk for a week on a word of praise from
one of the advanced students.  It's a
head-scratcher... 

> I must also take this opportunity to praise Tahn
> Ajahn Sujin's 
> ability to answer, what seem to me to be, difficult
> questions quite 
> spontaneously with no apparent hesitation in Thai
> and only a litte in 
> English when searching for the right English word. 
> Furthermore, the 
> speech is gentle, polite and precise. This naturally
> inspires 
> confidence and admiration among listeners.

I've just been listening to tapes of her talks and, as
I said recently to Robert, she sounds to me like a
deva (only smarter).

MIke


 
2050 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:

> We count on you to ask them a lot
> of questions, 
> for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray
> from realities we 
> would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they
> can tell you 
> about the realities before them, we should
> rejoice!!!  (Don't tell 
> them this though!)

Outstanding notion, Khun Amara!


 
2051 From: Jim Wilson   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 2:24am
Subject: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  Good Friends:

This is my first post asking for feedback on a specific teaching.  If 
there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use 
that i don't know about, please let me know.

I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional 
Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara 
Paccaya (Immediate Continguity).

Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that 
distinguishes the two.  I think of both of them as like causing like; 
as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment.  Or when the 
thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the 
next moment.  Is this correct?

However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be 
placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa.

Any assistance will be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Jimfw

 
2052 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:04am
Subject: Praise : was Writing and Speaking

 
  Dear Dhammastudygroup list members, especially Robert, Mike and Sarah

I wrote too soon again.  "Roo mai tan" (a pithy Thai phrase that captures
the sense in which mindfulness is not established).

Last Saturday, the English speaking Dhamma discussion group met as usual in
the comfortable airconditioned back room at the Foundation in Bangkok .
This time Jack Tippayachan from California joined the session.  Jack
demonstrated a deep knowledge of the Dhamma and commented that the session
in Bangkok was fun because we all laughed a lot.  He also took an
opportunity to praise Tahn Ajahn Sujin for the excellence of the teaching,
the great patience she shows us and other virtues. Others in the group
including Khun Sukin made similar comments or noises of affirmation.

There was a young man from a foreign country who ordained to be a Buddhist
monk in Thailand. When he went on alms round in the morning, people would
bow down in front of him and offer food.  This man felt unworthy of such
respect and offerings. He was only a beginner with so much to learn and so
many defilements.  Then an older monk explained that the people were not
respecting him at all. In fact the people were respecting the Lord Buddha
who found the path, the Dhamma teaching about the path and the Sangha who
have realised the path.  Ignorance is recieving shame, embarrassment and
blame.

Just so, any praise for the extent to which messages to this list have kept
in line with the Buddha Dhamma is due entirely to the Buddha, the Dhamma and
the Sangha.

Ignorance is receiving shame, embarrassment and blame.

 
2053  
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:19am
Subject: Appearance And Disappearance

 
  Dear friends,

   This weekend, my Abhidhamma teacher told me a secret to realize 
Anatta.  If we can stretch out a moment into a period of 10 or 20 
minutes for example, we'll be able to see that everything around
us, including ourselves, appears and disappears along with the subtle 
changes.  Then, we won't cling to the concepts.

   Image that someone sits in front of you talking.  After ten 
minutes, he disappears totally into thin air.  Ten minutes later, he 
appears again.  Another ten minutes pass, he disappears, and then 
after ten minutes, he reappears.  Everything around you is doing the 
same.  Simultaneously, you are also appearing and disappearing every 
ten minutes! 

Anumodana,
Alex

 
 
2054 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 6:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Praise : was Writing and Speaking

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

> Just so, any praise for the extent to which messages
> to this list have kept
> in line with the Buddha Dhamma is due entirely to
> the Buddha, the Dhamma and
> the Sangha.
> 
> Ignorance is receiving shame, embarrassment and
> blame.

EXCELLENT POINT! SADHU! and thanks.  (By the way
(anyone), are shame, embarrassment and blame akusala
cetasikas with names?).


 
2055 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 11:43am
Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  > If 
> there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use 
> that i don't know about, please let me know.


Dear Jim W.,

No formal preceedures here, please feel free to post any questions 
you wish, perhaps just that they concern the Buddha's teachings!


> I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional 
> Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara 
> Paccaya (Immediate Continguity).
> 
> Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that 
> distinguishes the two.  I think of both of them as like causing 
like; 
> as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment.  Or when the 
> thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the 
> next moment.  Is this correct?
> 
> However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be 
> placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa.


As I understand it, anantara-paccaya is the immediate cause for the 
next citta to arise, with no gap in time possible, the only exception 
being the cuti citta of the arahanta.

Samanantara-paccaya are the sequential cause for citta to follow a 
certain order in their arising, for example in the vithi citta 
process, the sampatthichanna, santirana, votthapana and javana must 
arise in the proper sequence, again with the exception of the cuti 
citta of the arahanta, which should in others be followed by the 
patisandhi-citta.

For more details please read the chapters on the citta in 
the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of 
<http://dhammastudy.com/>,

Amara

 
2056 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 11:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Appearance And Disappearance

 
  Dear Alex,
Thanks. It is true isn't it- nothing lasts at all. This type of
consideration about anicca is useful. The more we accept that
the better. Thinking alone isn't enough but at least seeing that
everything must accord with the nature of parammattha dhammas
helps us to see things in this light to some extent. Scientists
have gradually uncovered that matter is almost nothing, simply
space and very tiny particles changing rapidly: this is still a
conceptual understanding but it accords with the way things
really are (which if it is true it must). They know that every
piece of matter is changing at a fanatstic rate. However, even
the best scientists can't become enlightened by this knowledge
as only direct experience of dhammas leads to the deepest type
of wisdom. 
I saw a passage in a book that included an interview with the
head of the physics department at the University of Chicago
(where they first strated making the atomic bomb). It was in the
1930's and he was telling someone that they now knew that all
matter was so ephemeral. He said he found it hard to accept that
the very floor they were standing on was just space and
particles in flux - nevertheless that is what they had found. We
accept this easily now because of our education but it is not so
easy to see.  The actual change is much more radical than even
scientsits can realise; it all passes away completely and arises
again billions of times in a split second according to the
scriptures.
Robert
---  wrote: > Dear friends,
> 
>    This weekend, my Abhidhamma teacher told me a secret to
> realize 
> Anatta.  If we can stretch out a moment into a period of 10 or
> 20 
> minutes for example, we'll be able to see that everything
> around
> us, including ourselves, appears and disappears along with the
> subtle 
> changes.  Then, we won't cling to the concepts.
> 
>    Image that someone sits in front of you talking.  After ten
> 
> minutes, he disappears totally into thin air.  Ten minutes
> later, he 
> appears again.  Another ten minutes pass, he disappears, and
> then 
> after ten minutes, he reappears.  Everything around you is
> doing the 
> same.  Simultaneously, you are also appearing and disappearing
> every 
> ten minutes! 
> 
> Anumodana,
> Alex
> 
> 



 
2057  
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: Appearance And Disappearance

 
  Dear Robert,

> He said he found it hard to accept that
> the very floor they were standing on was just space and
> particles in flux - nevertheless that is what they had found. 

   If he had known that every particle of that floor changed due to 
decaying at the same time.  He would be completed out of his mind!  :-
)))  Then, he saw that he himself changed, too.  He would be a good 
disciple of the Buddha.  :-)))

> We
> accept this easily now because of our education but it is not so
> easy to see.  The actual change is much more radical than even
> scientsits can realise; it all passes away completely and arises
> again billions of times in a split second according to the
> scriptures.

   The Buddha's wisdom is amazing.

Anumodana,
Alex

 
2058 From:  
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 0:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Amara and Robert,

Thanks for your explanations.!!

Robert, what is the english phrases used by Bhikkhu Bodhi for Pali 'mannana'?


rgds

 
2059 From:  
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael.

you said-->
The act of writing allows me time to edit so that the
finished text only appears thoughtful and well considered - a mere
illusion. I can get quotes, check sources, check consistency and
logic, check  coverage and completeness and so on. This is not so
easy to do when talking, especially in a group with  many people
eager to make a contribution or ask a question.


same here.

:o)



rgds.

 
2060 From:  
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Appearance And Disappearance

 
  Dear Robert

you said-->
 He said he found it hard to accept that
the very floor they were standing on was just space and
particles in flux - nevertheless that is what they had found. We
accept this easily now because of our education but it is not so
easy to see.  The actual change is much more radical than even
scientsits can realise; it all passes away completely and arises
again billions of times in a split second according to the
scriptures.


in mulapariyaya sutta, the puthujjanas 'mannana'(verb) as ....is 'pathavi',from
'pathavi' ,in 'pathavi'...etc...with all.

It would be really helpful if you( or anyone) can share your (his/her)
understanding on this.



rgds

 
2061 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Appearance And Disappearance

 
  Dear gayan,
I wonder if we were once dhamma students together in the distant
past. We seem to have rather similar areas of interest. Your
question about the mulapariyaya sutta is one I found (and still
do) well-worth looking into. I'll send you a reply later today.
Robert
---  wrote: > 
> in mulapariyaya sutta, the puthujjanas 'mannana'(verb) as
> ....is 'pathavi',from
> 'pathavi' ,in 'pathavi'...etc...with all.
> 
> It would be really helpful if you( or anyone) can share your
> (his/her)
> understanding on this.
> 
> 
> 
> rgds
> 
> 
> 



 
2062 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 4:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  Dear Jim:

Here's a quote from NVG's Conditions:

Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and
samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in
meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. The preceding citta is the
condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is
the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma).

My understanding of other people's explanation is that the two pacayas
are different in letters (proximity, and proximity arising in order). 
Their meanings are the same.  The conditioning dhammas are the same,
the conditioned dhammas are the same, and the way the conditioning
dhammas condition the conditioned dhammas are the same.  

A. Santi, in a taped discussions of pacaya, explained that the Buddha
explained the same phenomenon in two different ways to help people with
different accumulations to understand the meaning.  A. Sujin, however,
didn't confirm this (in the conversation), but confirmed the
differentiations between the two pacayas.  

My speculation (watch out!) for the two different teachings (in
letters) is to tighten the understanding of the phenomenon.  It is not
that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, but
that it must condition the next citta in certain order.   Nobody
controls this ordering: stressing the delusion of control, the delusion
of self.  

It is analogous to explaining a sankhara dhamma (conditioned dhammas
that arise) that it must also be sankhatta dhamma (conditioned dhammas
that arise, and then must fall away).  With the two explanations,
explaining the same dhammas, there can be no doubt that conditioned
dhamma does not last.  It arises because of conditions, and then it
must fall away.  This captures all the three common characteristics:
annica, dukha, anatta.

kom
--- amara chay  wrote:
> > If 
> > there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use 
> > that i don't know about, please let me know.
> 
> 
> Dear Jim W.,
> 
> No formal preceedures here, please feel free to post any questions 
> you wish, perhaps just that they concern the Buddha's teachings!
> 
> 
> > I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional 
> > Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara 
> > Paccaya (Immediate Continguity).
> > 
> > Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that 
> > distinguishes the two.  I think of both of them as like causing 
> like; 
> > as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment.  Or when the 
> > thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the 
> > next moment.  Is this correct?
> > 
> > However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be 
> > placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa.
> 
> 
> As I understand it, anantara-paccaya is the immediate cause for the 
> next citta to arise, with no gap in time possible, the only exception
> 
> being the cuti citta of the arahanta.
> 
> Samanantara-paccaya are the sequential cause for citta to follow a 
> certain order in their arising, for example in the vithi citta 
> process, the sampatthichanna, santirana, votthapana and javana must 
> arise in the proper sequence, again with the exception of the cuti 
> citta of the arahanta, which should in others be followed by the 
> patisandhi-citta.
> 
> For more details please read the chapters on the citta in 
> the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of 
> <http://dhammastudy.com/>,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 


 
2063 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 6:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  Dear Jim,
You ask hard questions! Good to see you working on this profound
stuff. You will be able to help us out in the future when Jim
Anderson comes up with problems during his translation of the
commentary to the Patthana. I am a bit too tied up at the moment
to research this topic . Kom would perhaps have a good idea
though - or JimA or Sarah.
One useful fact: the 24 paccaya can be reduced down to 6 main
conditions because some of the conditions are essentially the
same but were classfied differently as the Buddha was stressing
different aspects. Now in fact as you indicate these two
conditions are the same, they are only classified differently. 
--- Jim Wilson  wrote: > Good Friends:
> 
> .  I think of both of them as like
> causing like; 
> as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment. 
 
I think the example you give is mainly asevana paccaya
(repetition condition) because the javana cittas where anger
arises run in a series of seven . Once they begin no one can
stop them because of asevana paccaya. However, of course anatara
and samanatara are also present at this time, and so because
this anger now can condition anger in the future too; it becoems
habitual. 
 Anatara and samantara paccaya are the conditions that ensure
there is never a gap between cittas; that after the arising of
one citta another must follow immediately. For example even at
death this condition works to condition patisandhi citta
(rebirth consciousness) immediately in the next life - even if
this new life is a zillion miles away.The only times when this
doesn't occur is 1. upon parinibbana (final nibbana)of the
arahant; then these conditions cease and no new citta arises
ever again.
2. upon the special state called nirodha samapatti attainable
only by a few arahants and anagami who have developed mastery of
jhana. At this time these conditions are suspended for up to a
week. But they take up immediately that this special type of
concentration ends.
3. the birth of the special being who is born in the
asanna-satta plane where there is rupa but know nama.
robert


 


 
2064 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 8:09pm
Subject: Mulapariyaya sutta

 
  Dear gayan,
Here is some details on mannana:
About the mulapariyaya sutta:
For this explanation I rely on the commentary translated by
Bhikkhu Bodhi as well as his introduction.
Bhikkhun Bodhi writes “The Pali word we have rendered
''conceiving,'' mannana, comes from the root man, 'to think''.
But what is indicated by this word is not simple discursive
thinking, either of a morally wholesome or unwholesome character
and may involve either a right or a wrong grasp of its object.
The word mannana signifies a different, more developed type of
thinking, one that is decidedly unwholesome and always involves
a wrong grasp of the object. Mannana is distortional
thinking-thinking which, under the domination of defiled
prediliction, imputes to its object properties or relational
implications grounded not in the thing itself, but in the
constructive activity of the subjective imagination” End
passage.
 The commentary says that mannana is a synonym for papanca (see
my letter about this a few months back). This is interesting as
papanca is of three types: tanha, mana and ditthi (desire,
conceit and craving).  Now, as I understand it papanca is at a
far deeper level than just the developed thinking Bodhi seems to
indicate above. However , in other sections of his introduction
he seems to acknowledge this. For instance he has a note which
says “it cannot be stressed strongly enogh that the ..basic
structure of ego bias is already present in toto as a potential
in the worldlings mental constitution”. And in another section
he relates mannana to the vipallasa (the perversions of
cognition). He notes that there are  three levels of perversion:
perception (sanna) citta, and views (ditthi). He says “the
perversion of perception occurs when the object is simply noted
through one of the four distortional frames without further
development. (this is the deepest level). If the object is
subsequently reflected upon in the same mode there takes palce a
perversion of thought. And if, through repeated reflection, the
conviction arises that this frame yields an accurate picture of
the world, the distortion has evolved into a pereversion of
views” The four perversions are seeing the foul as beautiful,
the unpleasuarable to be pleasuarable, the impermanent to be
permanent and the not self to be self.  Thus he acknowledges
that these perversions (and mannana ) are also present before
any thinking in words.

 .Bodhi writes “It is significant in this respect that the
commentary glosses the word mannana by the word papanca, The
activity of conceiving, the commentary points out, is motivated
by three underlying mental factors which impart to x craving
(tanha) , conceit  , and views . Under the influence of craving
the egoistic bias comes to expression in thoughts of longing and
desire. Under the influence of conceit it becomes manifest in
judgments and comparisons whereby we rank ourselves…. as
superior, equal, or inferior. And under the influence of views,
i.e. the theoretical bent of thought, the ego-bias issues in
dogmas, tenets, and speculations concerning the reality and
nature of the personal self and its focus, the world. Whereas
the uninstructed worldling conceives the aggregates through
craving, conceit, and views'  '' This is mine, this am I, this
is my self,'' the learner knows to reverse this mode of
consideration. Applying his direct knowledge to the aggregates,
he contemplates them thus : '' This is not mine, this am I not,
this is not my self '' By the first he attenuates craving, by
the second of self. As he persists in his practice  of
contemplation, his insight gradually develops to maturity,” 

In the commentary itself (p50) it says “concepts due to
proliferation (papanca) are grounded upon perception”

So this is the first part. Did you take up Mikes offer to send
the book to anyone who wants it? If you get a copy we can then
all refer directly to it which will be more efficient, I think,
than just qouting a few sections here and there. there is a lot
in it and to do it justice will take some time.
In the meantime any direct questions about it are wlecome.
Robert



 
2065 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:34pm
Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  > Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and
> samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in
> meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. 

Dear Kom,

Thank you for the precisions, I would like to add just one little 
note: samanantara comes from sama, which means good, orderly, in 
groups + anantara which means immediate, no time gap, without 
interval.  Khun Sujin confirms that they intend the same paccaya or 
causes but also that they are differntiated to stress different 
aspects: not only do they condition the sequential dhamma but also 
from the samanantara aspect, in the right order.

The citta and the cetasika condition one another from several 
perspectives, as explained in Tan Ajaan's book 'Paccaya Sankep' in 
Thai, do you have that?  I will ask Khun Jack to take some back to 
your groups.  I am also translating it (slowly at the moment because 
I have lots of other obligations for quite some time still) but 
these two paccaya are explained in detail on pp. 21-23.  

Anumodana in your detailed study,

Amara

 
2066 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  Dear Jim,

Yes, as Kom & Robert have explained, anantara P. and
samanantara P. are exactly the same in terms of
function, condition and conditioned dhamma. The reason
for explaining them seaparaely is that different
people appreciate a different emphasis.
 
For example, when we talk about anantara P, the
emphasis is on the fact that there's no chance of a
break in the cittas (mental states) because it
conditions another citta immediately after by
proximity. When we talk about samanantara p., the
emphasis is on the fact that though the next citta
arises, there is no chance for it to do 'as it likes
but it does so in accordance with the fixed order' of
cittas so there is no break. A very subtle change of
emphasis. In the PTS Guide to Conditional Relations
(v.helpful), it says 'proximity condition (anantara)
is like the Universal Monarch who has gone forth into
the homeless life and contiguity condition
(samanantara) is like the Universal Monarch who has
died.  Each is the condition for the eldest son to
become the monarch.'

So I agree w/ Kom that the different classifications
are to help people with different accumulations
understand anatta. I don't think it matters if one
doesn't understand the difference in these
explanations as they are the same paccaya. We find
these different classifications throughout the
abhidhamma.  Look at all the different ways the same
cetasikas (mental factors) are classified for example.

Keep up your good qus which are very relevant to the
list....

Best rgds,
Sarah





 
2067 From:  
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 9:59pm
Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  This statement, "It is not that the citta conditions the citta arising 
immediately after it, but that it must condition the next citta in certain 
order.", should read:
 
"It is not only that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after 
it, but that it must also condition the next citta in a certain order."


---  Kom Tukovinit  
wrote:
> Dear Jim:
> 
> Here's a quote from NVG's Conditions:
> 
> Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and
> samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in
> meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. The preceding citta is the
> condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is
> the
> conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma).
> 
> My understanding of other people's explanation is that the two pacayas
> are different in letters (proximity, and proximity arising in order). 
> Their meanings are the same.  The conditioning dhammas are the same,
> the conditioned dhammas are the same, and the way the conditioning
> dhammas condition the conditioned dhammas are the same.  
> 
> A. Santi, in a taped discussions of pacaya, explained that the Buddha
> explained the same phenomenon in two different ways to help people 
with
> different accumulations to understand the meaning.  A. Sujin, however,
> didn't confirm this (in the conversation), but confirmed the
> differentiations between the two pacayas.  
> 
> My speculation (watch out!) for the two different teachings (in
> letters) is to tighten the understanding of the phenomenon.  It is not
> that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, but
> that it must condition the next citta in certain order.   Nobody
> controls this ordering: stressing the delusion of control, the delusion
> of self.  
> 
> It is analogous to explaining a sankhara dhamma (conditioned dhammas
> that arise) that it must also be sankhatta dhamma (conditioned 
dhammas
> that arise, and then must fall away).  With the two explanations,
> explaining the same dhammas, there can be no doubt that conditioned
> dhamma does not last.  It arises because of conditions, and then it
> must fall away.  This captures all the three common characteristics:
> annica, dukha, anatta.
> 
> kom

 
2068 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 1:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear Sarah,

In a message dated: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:45 AM EST you wrote:

>you mentioned in another post (sorry I don't have it
>here) that you had a better idea while writing (I
>think!) of how to integrate your 'meditation and
>study'. I'd be interested to hear what you have in
>mind.

I was thinking of bringing the two together in the same sitting. Instead of
just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the option of engaging in
dhamma study if desired. This would be helpful when the mind is too
distracted to stay focussed on the breath as is often the case. The idea it
that the dhamma study is substituted for the type of discursive thinking
that just goes around in circles going nowhere. By dhamma study in a sitting
(or another posture) I mean working with the Pali texts directly from memory
by recitation or reflection without the aid of a book in front of me.

I have been trying it out and am finding it to be a better way. Dhamma study
also helps to focus and concentrate the mind. I have noticed that after
spending some time with the study part and then turning my attention back to
the breath, the breath is clearer.

Sorry for being so late in responding to your message. I have been having
email problems with egroups. A lot of messages have been bouncing and not
getting through to me. I have never had a problem quite like this before. I
then opened up an email account with yahoo.com, but the messages were
bouncing from there as well. Lately the situation has improved and the
messages have been getting through. I have no idea why this problem is
happening or why some servers are refusing to deliver.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

 
 
2069 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear Jim,

Some interesting parallels:

--- Jim Anderson  wrote:

> I was thinking of bringing the two together in the
> same sitting. Instead of
> just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the
> option of engaging in
> dhamma study if desired. 

For some time, I was keeping Uposatha by staying up
all night, reciting some Puja, and
sitting/walking/sitting till dawn, then morning
Puja--then sleeping in...!  When I discovered dsg, I
changed this practice to something like what you're
now doing, (though I didn't exclude reading or
listening) and found it a great improvement.

> By
> dhamma study in a sitting
> (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali
> texts directly from memory
> by recitation or reflection without the aid of a
> book in front of me.

You're probably aware that this is one of the
instructions that the Buddha gave to Maha-Moggallana
for overcoming the third nivarana:

"But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear,
you should think and reflect within your mind about
the Dhamma as you have heard and learnt it, and you
should mentally review it. Then it is possible that,
by so doing, torpor will disappear. 

AN 7:58, from 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#sloth

If not, I'm mighty impressed that you came to that
conclusion independently--though I probably shouldn't
be surprised considering the breadth and depth of your
practice...

Good luck with your egroups connection.  It would be
great to hear more from you, if you can find the
time...

Regards,

Mike


 
2070 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:15am
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  Can we really presume to judge how far Buddhism has declined? 

And if so, assuming you feel it's important enough to ask the 
question 'why does panna know', why not tell them they got the answer 
wrong and they fail 'the test'? 

metta, joe

---  "m. nease"  wrote:
> --- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> > We count on you to ask them a lot
> > of questions, 
> > for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray
> > from realities we 
> > would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they
> > can tell you 
> > about the realities before them, we should
> > rejoice!!!  (Don't tell 
> > them this though!)
> 
> Outstanding notion, Khun Amara!
> 

 
2071 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:19am
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  Pardon, that should have been 'what does panna know,' of course!

Although 'why does panna know' might generate an interesting side 
discussion ...

joe

---  "Joe Cummings"  wrote:
> Can we really presume to judge how far Buddhism has declined? 
> 
> And if so, assuming you feel it's important enough to ask the 
> question 'why does panna know', why not tell them they got the 
answer 
> wrong and they fail 'the test'? 
> 
> metta, joe
> 
> ---  "m. nease"  
wrote:
> > --- amara chay  wrote:
> > 
> > > We count on you to ask them a lot
> > > of questions, 
> > > for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray
> > > from realities we 
> > > would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they
> > > can tell you 
> > > about the realities before them, we should
> > > rejoice!!!  (Don't tell 
> > > them this though!)
> > 
> > Outstanding notion, Khun Amara!
> > 

 
2072 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:54am
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  > Pardon, that should have been 'what does panna know,' of course!
> 
> Although 'why does panna know' might generate an interesting side 
> discussion ...
> > Can we really presume to judge how far Buddhism has declined? 
> > 
> > And if so, assuming you feel it's important enough to ask the 
> > question 'why does panna know', why not tell them they got the 
> answer 
> > wrong and they fail 'the test'? 



> > > > We count on you to ask them a lot
> > > > of questions, 
> > > > for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray
> > > > from realities we 
> > > > would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they
> > > > can tell you 
> > > > about the realities before them, we should
> > > > rejoice!!!  (Don't tell 
> > > > them this though!)



Dear Jim,

I could go on and on about the present state of the sankha and the 
lack of study of the Buddha's teachings from the direct source of the 
Tipitaka and following 'simplified and improved' methods of practice 
in classes of individual teachers these days, which is really an 
insult to the Buddha's teachings because had there been a better and 
faster way he would certainly have not said that it was the eka-magga.
Yet most of the people who practice have never really studied his 
words before proceding to 'sit'.  They take a phrase here and a 
quotation there and interpret it as they please and do not see his 
teachings as a whole that work together to explain a great reality, 
the truth, which can  be proven right now, even as we sit here and 
see light and color, so different from sounds and touches at your 
fingertips, each reality able to teach us of their different 
characteristics which when accumulated to a certain level, could 
spectacularly show is the complete separation of nama and rupa, never 
to be subject of doubt again.  These same realities that continuously 
present themselves could lead to higher and higher knowledge 
respectively and culminate in the eradication of all kilesa, if the 
study continues and panna accumulates.

This is the kind of knowledge people often consider too hard and 
unnecessary, most would rather go and sit with their eyes closed and 
not study realities, but expect panna to arise, never knowing that 
they do that with the self full of lobha for things to happen.  That 
does not apply to those who sit with the awareness of realities, that 
they are attached to the posture, that thoughts arise and fall away 
just like any reality, that all are anatta, that panna could arise as 
they sit if sati also arises to know the realities that appeat to the 
citta with sati then.  But for the person to know that, he must have 
prior knowledge of what sati is and what panna is and how they arise 
and operate.  Which still requires some studying on the intellectual 
level in any case.

Those who teach about the dhamma generally think they know best 
already even though often they could not answer any of the essential 
questions, and they often get angry if asked things they could not 
answer- even though if only they took the trouble to read the 
Buddha's teachings, all the answers are there, in fact some of the 
questions I would never have dreamt of are also answered there.  In 
any case I suppose one might try to convince others they are wrong, 
but in my experience it is better to tell people who are interested 
and ask about it rather than argue that this or that person is not 
saying things that are taught in the Tipitaka, unless they ask your 
opinion.  Then of course I believe that honesty is the best policy, 
since in trying to humor someone in their wrong view must bring some 
kind of unhappy results in the future as well!

Again, these are my personal opinions and in no way reflect those of 
this list!

Amara

 
2073 From: Jim Wilson   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:04am
Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  ---  Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Jim:
> 

Dear Kom:

Thank you for a clear elucidation.  I found this very helpful.

> Here's a quote from NVG's Conditions:
> 
> Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and
> samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in
> meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) 54. The preceding citta is the
> condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is
> the
> conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma).
> 
> My understanding of other people's explanation is that the two 
pacayas
> are different in letters (proximity, and proximity arising in 
order). 
> Their meanings are the same.  The conditioning dhammas are the same,
> the conditioned dhammas are the same, and the way the conditioning
> dhammas condition the conditioned dhammas are the same.  
>

I wonder if you could give an example of how the two categories would 
be used in an explanation of the arising of a thought moment which 
conditions the next thought moment?
 
> A. Santi, in a taped discussions of pacaya, explained that the 
Buddha
> explained the same phenomenon in two different ways to help people 
with
> different accumulations to understand the meaning.  A. Sujin, 
however,
> didn't confirm this (in the conversation), but confirmed the
> differentiations between the two pacayas.  
> 
> My speculation (watch out!) for the two different teachings (in
> letters) is to tighten the understanding of the phenomenon.  It is 
not
> that the citta conditions the citta arising immediately after it, 
but
> that it must condition the next citta in certain order.

So it is the order that is crucial here?  Is that right.  That a 
particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next citta, 
but a particular citta in a chain of causation?  Is this 
deterministic, or is it possible, through meditation, to break such a 
sequence?

Once again, thank you for your clarity.

Best wishes,

Jimfw

   Nobody
> controls this ordering: stressing the delusion of control, the 
delusion
> of self.  
> 
> It is analogous to explaining a sankhara dhamma (conditioned dhammas
> that arise) that it must also be sankhatta dhamma (conditioned 
dhammas
> that arise, and then must fall away).  With the two explanations,
> explaining the same dhammas, there can be no doubt that conditioned
> dhamma does not last.  It arises because of conditions, and then it
> must fall away.  This captures all the three common characteristics:
> annica, dukha, anatta.
> 
> kom

 
2074 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:07am
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  Dear all,

I forgot to sign off for two more days (a birthday party of the 
sponsor of our website, Khun Walee Davahastin, to be held at one of 
her hotels by the sea at Cha-am) and I look forward to reading all 
the postings when we get back,

See you all soon,

Amara

 
2075 From: Jim Wilson   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:12am
Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> You ask hard questions!

Hi Robert:

Thank you for inviting me to this board.  My primary background is in 
chinese buddhist traditions.  My acquaintance with pali buddhism is 
newer, but i am finding it such a rich resource for clarification.  I 
don't mean to ask "hard" questions, just attempting to gain some 
clarity.  If i ask something that everyone has already gone over a 
dozen times, just let me know.

 Good to see you working on this profound
> stuff. You will be able to help us out in the future when Jim
> Anderson comes up with problems during his translation of the
> commentary to the Patthana. I am a bit too tied up at the moment
> to research this topic . Kom would perhaps have a good idea
> though - or JimA or Sarah.
> One useful fact: the 24 paccaya can be reduced down to 6 main
> conditions because some of the conditions are essentially the
> same but were classfied differently as the Buddha was stressing
> different aspects.

I was reading Ledi Sayadaw's introduction to the paccaya and came 
across sections where he said that a particular condition was the 
same as another one.  This puzzled me as i didn't understand, if they 
are the same, why the system needs 24 categories.  From your post, 
and also Kom's, i am thinking that in some cases this is an example 
of upaya; though the meaning may be the same, the approach to the 
meaning differs.  Is this similar to the sense you have of it?

Your comment that the 24 conditions can be simplified into 6 primary 
conditions is interesting to me.  Can you give me a resource on these 
6 core conditions?  In the Sarvastivada Abhidharma they list 4 causes 
and 6 conditions, and i am wondering if there is a closer connection 
between the two systems if viewed in this way?  Perhaps not, but i 
think it would be worthwhile comparing.

 Now in fact as you indicate these two
> conditions are the same, they are only classified differently. 
> --- Jim Wilson  wrote: > Good Friends:
> > 
> > .  I think of both of them as like
> > causing like; 
> > as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment. 
>  
> I think the example you give is mainly asevana paccaya
> (repetition condition) because the javana cittas where anger
> arises run in a series of seven . Once they begin no one can
> stop them because of asevana paccaya. However, of course anatara
> and samanatara are also present at this time, and so because
> this anger now can condition anger in the future too; it becoems
> habitual. 

I am SUCH a beginner here!!!  It had not occured to me, though now it 
seems obvious, that more than one condition can apply in a particular 
analysis.  I had fallen into an either/or view.  But as you pointed 
out, several aspects can be present at the same time.  Though, i 
suspect, there would be a predominant condition?

Once again, thanks for your help.

Best wishes,

Jimfw

>  Anatara and samantara paccaya are the conditions that ensure
> there is never a gap between cittas; that after the arising of
> one citta another must follow immediately. For example even at
> death this condition works to condition patisandhi citta
> (rebirth consciousness) immediately in the next life - even if
> this new life is a zillion miles away.The only times when this
> doesn't occur is 1. upon parinibbana (final nibbana)of the
> arahant; then these conditions cease and no new citta arises
> ever again.
> 2. upon the special state called nirodha samapatti attainable
> only by a few arahants and anagami who have developed mastery of
> jhana. At this time these conditions are suspended for up to a
> week. But they take up immediately that this special type of
> concentration ends.
> 3. the birth of the special being who is born in the
> asanna-satta plane where there is rupa but know nama.
> robert
> 
> 
>  
> 

 
2076 From: Jim Wilson   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:20am
Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  ---  Sarah Procter Abbott 
 wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> 

Greetings:

Thanks you for your assistance.

> Yes, as Kom & Robert have explained, anantara P. and
> samanantara P. are exactly the same in terms of
> function, condition and conditioned dhamma. The reason
> for explaining them seaparaely is that different
> people appreciate a different emphasis.
>  
> For example, when we talk about anantara P, the
> emphasis is on the fact that there's no chance of a
> break in the cittas (mental states) because it
> conditions another citta immediately after by
> proximity. When we talk about samanantara p., the
> emphasis is on the fact that though the next citta
> arises, there is no chance for it to do 'as it likes
> but it does so in accordance with the fixed order' of
> cittas so there is no break. A very subtle change of
> emphasis. In the PTS Guide to Conditional Relations
> (v.helpful), it says 'proximity condition (anantara)
> is like the Universal Monarch who has gone forth into
> the homeless life and contiguity condition
> (samanantara) is like the Universal Monarch who has
> died.  Each is the condition for the eldest son to
> become the monarch.'

This illustration is very helpful.

> 
> So I agree w/ Kom that the different classifications
> are to help people with different accumulations
> understand anatta. I don't think it matters if one
> doesn't understand the difference in these
> explanations as they are the same paccaya.

Right now, i am trying to lift the fog on conditional relations.  So 
i'll probably ask irrelevant questions, or questions that don't quite 
matter or hit the mark.  Let me know if that is the case.

Thanks for your help.

Best wishes,

Jimfw

 We find
> these different classifications throughout the
> abhidhamma.  Look at all the different ways the same
> cetasikas (mental factors) are classified for example.
> 
> Keep up your good qus which are very relevant to the
> list....
> 
> Best rgds,
> Sarah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

 
2077 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 9:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  Dear Jim,
thanks for the reply.
--- Jim Wilson  wrote: > --- In > Hi Robert:
> Thank you for inviting me to this board. 
Glad you accepted.

 My primary
> My acquaintance with pali
> buddhism is 
> newer, but i am finding it such a rich resource for
> clarification.  I 
> don't mean to ask "hard" questions, just attempting to gain
> some 
> clarity.  If i ask something that everyone has already gone
> over a 
> dozen times, just let me know.

We want hard questions and easy questions and a dozen times is
sure to be only scratching the surface of any aspect of the
BuddhaDhamma. 
 
> I was reading Ledi Sayadaw's introduction to the paccaya and
> came 
> across sections where he said that a particular condition was
> the 
> same as another one.  This puzzled me as i didn't understand,
> if they 
> are the same, why the system needs 24 categories.  From your
> post, 
> and also Kom's, i am thinking that in some cases this is an
> example 
> of upaya; though the meaning may be the same, the approach to
> the 
> meaning differs.  Is this similar to the sense you have of it?

This is one part but also I think it is stressing different
aspects of the condition. 


> 
> Your comment that the 24 conditions can be simplified into 6
> primary 
> conditions is interesting to me.  Can you give me a resource
> on these 
> 6 core conditions?  
I think the Abhidhammathasangha (an ancient compendium of
Abhidhamma - it used to be the first thing that monks studied-
an introduction to the tipitika and abhidhamma) has mentioned
this although I just looked it up on the web and couldn't find a
reference. You might want to read over what it says about
pacccaya though:
http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/chapter_8.htm


In the Sarvastivada Abhidharma they list 4
> causes 
> and 6 conditions, and i am wondering if there is a closer
> connection 
> between the two systems if viewed in this way?  Perhaps not,
> but i 
> think it would be worthwhile comparing.

I looked over some stuff from the Abhidhamkosa (sarvastivada?)
once and found the conditions had similar names but found them
rather different. For example if you look at hetu paccaya in the
therevada and compare it with hetu-pratyaya of the later sanskit
schools it is quite different.
> 
>   It had not occured to me, though
> now it 
> seems obvious, that more than one condition can apply in a
> particular 
> analysis.  I had fallen into an either/or view.  But as you
> pointed 
> out, several aspects can be present at the same time.  Though,
> i 
> suspect, there would be a predominant condition?

Probably. But it may vary at different times, even in a very
similar type of moment. Here is a sentence from the
visuddhimagga(XVii217)"in the course of an existence..these five
bases (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) are conditions in six ways,
as support, prenascence,faculty, disscociation,presence and
non-disapearrance conditions, for the sixth, the mind-base,
comprising eye, ear, nose, tongue and body cosciouness..."
Every moment is conditioned by several paccaya and likewise each
moment functions as a condition for other moments in various
ways. It is so complex but it is happening now and the Buddha
understood it all and classified it perfectly in order that we
could begin to see it - and thus slowly, very slowly come out of
delusion.
You wrote to kom:
> > "So it is the order that is crucial here?  Is that right. 
That a 
particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next
citta, 
but a particular citta in a chain of causation?  Is this 
deterministic, or is it possible, through meditation, to break
such a 
sequence?"

In fact during a sensedoor process, for example seeing, even the
Buddha's mind door processes follow an inevitable series:
1.atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) .
 2.bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) .
 3 .bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga) , the last bhavanga
arising before the object is experienced through the sensedoor
4.five-sense-door-adverting -consciousness
(Pahcadvaravajjacitta) , which is a kiriyacitta .
 5 .sense-cognition (dvi-pancavinnana, seeing- consciousness,
etc.) , which is vipikacitta. 
6.receiving-consciousness (sampaticchana-citta) , which is
vipikacitta. 
7. investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) which is
vipakacitta. 
8 .determining-consciousness (votthapanacitta) which is
kiriyacitta.
 9-15 seven javana-cittas (''impulsion'' , kusala citta or 9-15 
or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats) . _
16.registering-consciousness (tadarammana-citta) which may or
may not arise, and which is vipaka cita. 
17. registering-consciousness. 

However, it is not inevitable that the the javana cittas are
only of one type(in the Buddhas case they are only kiriya). In
our case they may be akusala(unwholesome) or kusala(wholesome).
There are several conditions which are applying at this time and
which determine whether the javana is kusala or akusala (but if
the first javana is kusala then the following must be also and
same for akusala). It is so interesting to learn about this as
it all happening now, even while you read this. So completely
anatta, uncontrollable, not-self.But we cling to it with
distorted perception and think,"I am seeing", "I am
understanding", "I am having kusala", "I am having akusala". "I
am doing good", "I am doing bad", "I can change" It is all
rooted in delusion because of not uncovering and seeing the way
things really are.
Robert



 
2078 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 9:54am
Subject: RE: Fonts for Pali

 
  Dear DSSFB Group,
I'm getting set to retype Nina van Gorkom's letters from about 1975 onward
for placement on the web (and perhaps eventually other forms of
distribution) with her approval and permission. I would like to use a font
that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words on the web.  
For my coursework (on Hindu-Buddhist architecture) which went on the web,
the I.T. unit here at NUS (Singapore) used a program 'embedded fonts' which
was able to display the fonts on I.Explorer 5. The font I used was one I
created with Fontographer (for mac and pc) which I can send to Amara (or
others who need such a font) and maybe it will work in the same way our NUS
web works, but only through Explorer 5. I also have something called
'Dtimes' which works on mac (but I don't know if it is around for pc). The
Word font Amara uses (Tahoma) for her own work is not available on mac. 
Does anyone have suggestions for solving this problem?
Pinna
p.s. I much appreciate the lively discussions, especially on abhidhamma, and
grapbling with 'reality.'


 
2079 From:  
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 2:33pm
Subject: Re: welcome Wyn

 
  ---  wynn  wrote:

> Well, i am not good at introducing myself!!!! What do you want to 
know about
> me? You can sent questions to me privately. Sorry for the 
inconvenience
> caused.

Wynn
No need to apologise.  A self-introduction is not obligatory.  
Welcome to the list, anyway.  Good to have you with us.
Jonothan

 
2080 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 3:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  --- Jim Anderson  wrote
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> I was thinking of bringing the two together in the
> same sitting. Instead of
> just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the
> option of engaging in
> dhamma study if desired. This would be helpful when
> the mind is too
> distracted to stay focussed on the breath as is
> often the case. The idea it
> that the dhamma study is substituted for the type of
> discursive thinking
> that just goes around in circles going nowhere. By
> dhamma study in a sitting
> (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali
> texts directly from memory
> by recitation or reflection without the aid of a
> book in front of me.

I think recitation and reflection (with or without the
aid of a book) can be extremely helpful. Of course it
all depends on the understanding while reciting or
reflecting...as khun Sujin is fond of saying, a phrase
reflected on with right understanding is more useful
than reading the whole Tipitaka with wrong
understanding, especially wrong understanding of self.
I tend to read a few sentences or hear a phrase on a
tape and reflect on it during the day whilst teaching
(work teaching), hiking, doing my yoga or whatever.
For this reason, I seldom finish a text and there are
large chunks of the Tipitaka I haven't read or read so
long ago I've forgotten whether I've read them or not!

On the other hand if I'm distracted or 'my' mind is
going round in circles, I don't feel this is any
impediment to my practice. There are different
realities at these times which can be known too. If
there is right understanding, there is right
concentration automatically at that moment on the
object appearing.
> 
> I have been trying it out and am finding it to be a
> better way. Dhamma study
> also helps to focus and concentrate the mind. I have
> noticed that after
> spending some time with the study part and then
> turning my attention back to
> the breath, the breath is clearer.
> 

Conventionally I agree it's important to focus and
concentrate the mind. For example, we can say that
when you're translating a pali text you need to do
these. Of course, in reality, it's an illusion to
think that the mind can be concentrated at will or
that in terms of the development of satipatthana that
these more 'concentrated' times are any more suitable.

You also raise the subject of breath and anapannasati.
Others have mentioned their meditations on breath too.
This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to
hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect.

You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which case
pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I know
you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply and
respect that you may not want to discuss your own
'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the
translation work too!

I hope you get yr email problems sorted out. At least
yr messages aren't coming out in duplicate with long
time delays as mine were until I changed to yahoo.
(Maybe it's sth do do with server alliances, but I
have no idea really!).

Best rgds and pls don't apologise for delays.

Sarah




 
2081 From:  
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mulapariyaya sutta

 
  Thanks indeed robert,

:o)

And your explanation and bhikku bodhi's explanation go along with the way I am
studying right now...

when it comes to papanca, its a perversion of vitakkas,
['advanced' version of vitakkas]
its like in the story where - a man arranges all the
titbits(bones,veins..etc..etc) of a ferocious animal and give life to it, and
then the animal kills the guy -
When the vitakkas 'galore' and get entangled the much more destructive papanca
and papanca samkha appear.

And of course the mannana is not just TMD ( tanha , mana ,ditthi ) but a further
developed thing..

And in the Trainee, he trains as ' this is not mine, etc.....' { Pali - ma manni
}so its a step by step process.


the papanca proliferation entanglement is the key here...


rgds.

 
2082 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2000 4:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mulapariyaya sutta

 
  dear gayan,
It should be noted that mannana, papanca, as I see it, are
present even before there is any actual conceiving in words. I
think if we envisage mannana and papanaca starting off in at a
very tiny point and then rapidly expanding into a massive
triangular shape (or expanding universe) we get the general
idea. At the pinhead stage these perverted ways of seeing are so
refined, almost undetectable. At the outskirts we have such
ideas as Aliens in comets coming to take us away.
The only way to get to really understand it though is by
investigating right at the very moment they arise. That is:
during the sensedoor and minddoor processes. This is something
that only a Buddha can teach. Other ways, other teachers,
science, philosophy, religion, psychology, cults, they can help
us in a various ways by revealing aspects of the truth. But only
the Dhamma can get to this fundamental point where  all kilesa
blossoms from.
Robert
---  wrote: > 

> Thanks indeed robert,
> 
> :o)
> 
> And your explanation and bhikku bodhi's explanation go along
> with the way I am
> studying right now...
> 
> when it comes to papanca, its a perversion of vitakkas,
> ['advanced' version of vitakkas]
> its like in the story where - a man arranges all the
> titbits(bones,veins..etc..etc) of a ferocious animal and give
> life to it, and
> then the animal kills the guy -
> When the vitakkas 'galore' and get entangled the much more
> destructive papanca
> and papanca samkha appear.
> 
> And of course the mannana is not just TMD ( tanha , mana
> ,ditthi ) but a further
> developed thing..
> 
> And in the Trainee, he trains as ' this is not mine, etc.....'
> { Pali - ma manni
> }so its a step by step process.
> 
> 
> the papanca proliferation entanglement is the key here...
> 
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
2084 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear Mike,

From: m. nease 
Date: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 1:23 PM EST

>Dear Jim,
>
>Some interesting parallels:
>
>--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
>
>> I was thinking of bringing the two together in the
>> same sitting. Instead of
>> just trying to focus on the breath, I would have the
>> option of engaging in
>> dhamma study if desired.
>
>For some time, I was keeping Uposatha by staying up
>all night, reciting some Puja, and
>sitting/walking/sitting till dawn, then morning
>Puja--then sleeping in...!  When I discovered dsg, I
>changed this practice to something like what you're
>now doing, (though I didn't exclude reading or
>listening) and found it a great improvement.

I remember you mentioning keeping an all night Uposatha vigil to d-l some
time ago. This is something I have not tried myself. The closest I ever came
was at a weekend peace meditation retreat in 1979 where a small group of us
were meditating in shifts around the clock in the shrine hall and catching
up on sleep at odd hours.

>> By
>> dhamma study in a sitting
>> (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali
>> texts directly from memory
>> by recitation or reflection without the aid of a
>> book in front of me.
>
>You're probably aware that this is one of the
>instructions that the Buddha gave to Maha-Moggallana
>for overcoming the third nivarana:
>
>"But if, by so doing, that torpor does not disappear,
>you should think and reflect within your mind about
>the Dhamma as you have heard and learnt it, and you
>should mentally review it. Then it is possible that,
>by so doing, torpor will disappear.
>
>AN 7:58, from
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel026.html#sloth

I was not aware of this sutta until you brought it up. I have read the four
nikayas in English at least 15 years ago but have since forgotten most of
it. My preference now is to spend more time reading texts in Pali rather
than in English. I had a quick look at this sutta in English and Pali and I
thank you very much for letting me know about it. It is a gift of the
dhamma! I understand that this sutta teaching was instrumental in helping
Mahamoggallana to become an arahant. The sutta is packed with some really
powerful teachings and I like the part on solitude.

>If not, I'm mighty impressed that you came to that
>conclusion independently--though I probably shouldn't
>be surprised considering the breadth and depth of your
>practice...

It would not be fair to say I came to that conclusion independently, if
indeed, you could call it a conclusion. There is plenty of other teachings
in the tipitaka with its commentaries that can also lead one in the same
direction. I have long been interested in the memorizing of Pali texts and
keeping them in memory as this is the way the texts were handed down during
the first five centuries from the time of the Buddha. I have worked and
continue to work at memorizing pages of the Tipitaka (about 60 pages are
being maintained) and I'm convinced of the potential for the human mind to
memorize and retain the whole Tipitaka with its commentaries in Pali (about
50,000 pages). Lately, I have been memorizing some more pages from the
Dhammasangani (now up to the description of samadhindriyam in the first
kusala citta) and the Patthana (up to the exposition of the conascence
condition). I know I will not complete this work in this lifetime but it
is worth it to me to get started anyway.

I don't know if Jonothan is yet in Ottawa for the conference, but I can tell
you that winter has finally arrived here (about a week ago) and we had the
coldest night so far last night. My thermometer read 2F (-17C) this
morning. Brrrr... it's time to throw another log on the fire.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

 
 
2085 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] On Second Thought...

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear 

Mike,

This is a kind offer...anumodana!

We already have a copy and look forward to further
discussion.  Indeed it is an excellent example of what
we have discussed about needing to read the suttas
with an understanding of the abhidhamma. (This holds
true of the vinaya too, I believe.) 

Sarah

p.s. I loved your comments about getting 'maana-drunk
for a week on a word of praise....' Yes, we're all so
susceptible to those 8 woldly conditions!

 

Friends,
> 
> Since Robert recommends it, and since it may be much
> more practical to do it from here than from wherever
> you are, I'd be very glad to bear the expense of
> obtaining and mailing a copy of Bhikku Bodhi's
> Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, via airmail, to
> anyone in the group who'd like to participate in an
> e-discussion.  Seems to me this might be valuable as
> an introduction to the study of commentaries for
> people (like myself) who have never even read
> one...!
> 
> If you'd like a copy, please send your mailing
> address
> to:
> 
> protectID
> 
> and thanks in advance for the opportunity.
> 
> mn 
> 



 
2086 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma for children

 
  Dear Robert & Michael,

michael wrote

> > > Although they are exceptionally intelligent for
> their ages,
> I
> > think they are
> > a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. 

Robert wrote

> I think intelligence is not the main issue. Whether
> they will
> ultimately be interested in Dhamma depends on many
> conditions
> including their accumualation from past lives. They
> may be
> genius' but not be interested or they might be slow
> and yet
> through accumulations come to have great confidence
> in Dhamma.
> Paramattha dhamma is hard to understand for all of
> us.

I think this is a really good point. We're so used to
thinking in terms of conventional intelligence and we
tend to think that if a child is quick to pick up
other  subjects he/she will be quick to pick up the
dhamma. Of course the understanding of the dhamma is
not another subject and I sometimes find my students
who can most appreciate what I say about kusala
(wholesomeness) at any level are the 'slower'
students. It depends on so many conditions and
accumulations. We can see amongst this discussion
group the accumulations and areas of interest are very
different and yet we're all interested in
understanding the Teachings more.

It's interesting what we teach children too. I talk a
lot about different kusala and akusala cetaikas
(wholesome and unwholesome mental states) usually in
general terms and related to experiences and a lot
about the 5 precepts and occasionally about paramattha
dhammas (absolute realities), but seldom about kamma
and vipaka.....now I'm reminded by Robert to do so
more.

Many thanks to you both for your useful prompts.

Sarah 


 
2087 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 9:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma for children

 
  dear sarah and Michael,
 Today Alex(8) said me that his cousins don't get to hear
Buddhism and that this was a pity. I reminded him that when we
stayed at my sisters house a 18 months ago I told them all the
story of culla-cunda and maha-cunda . This is the story of two
pigs and how their owner finally decided to kill one of them for
food. It relates how maha-cunda told culla-cunda that all must
die and that we should face our death fearlessly. Anyway I told
it in a fair amount of detail - there were about 9 or 10 family
listening.  Of all of them Luke(9) was the most impressed. He
said to Alex and roxanne, the next time they met, that they were
lucky to hear these stories. I am not sure if he took it
literally or simply as a good story but I stressed the truth of
it as I told it (ignoring skeptical grunts from one member of
the audience). Luke does very badly at school though.
Three points to look at here, perhaps.
1. In conventional terms Luke is not intelligent, however he
seemed to see the point of that story.
2. We westerners, when telling people about Dhamma, often avoid
details about past lives and what we perceive as non-scientific
aspects of buddhism. I think this is a valid but not always. For
some hearing about past lives and the workings of kamma makes
immediate sense to them. In the end they have to see this
otherwise they cannot begin to fathom how conditions work.
3. The last point: I think no rule about what we teach or when.
Sometimes it is better to say nothing. Sometimes it is good to
speak even if your words aren't particularly welcome.  


Robert


 
2088 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 10:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Mike
 
> > Jonothan once indicated to me that when we
> > are very
> > concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a
> > clinging to
> > self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma
> into
> > psychology.
> 
> Yes, this hits the nail on the head, and accounts
> for
> my misgiving.  Clearly there was the desire present
> to
> be dosa-free, and the idea that I could 'achieve'
> that.
> 
> > (Actually he said much more and much better so
> > please ask him to
> > explain).
> 
> I hope he might pick up on this...

To be honest, i don't recollect the exchange.  But
Robert's recollection would be correct, I'm sure.

Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form of
akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it
is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting
this as a form of 'practice'.  (Indeed, whole schools
of meditation practice have built up around this
concept.)  This of course would be a mistake, because
it is wanting to be other that we truly are at that
moment.  And of course, getting rid of the dosa of the
present moment by such means does not address the
fundamental problem - lack of developed understanding.

Actually, most of the ideas we have about 'practice'
are wrong view (miccha ditthi).  This should not
surprise us.  Just as we have more akusala in general
in a day that kusala, so too with miccha ditti/samma
ditthi in particular.  Once we manage to accept this,
it means we are more likely to recognise the miccha
ditthi when it arises.  This is vital for creating the
right conditions for more awareness and right
understanding to arise.

As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously
unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing.  Much
more useful than supressing those moments of akusala!

Jonothan


 
2089 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2000 10:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Gayan

> as in Pali what a puthujjana does is ' mannati'
> where as a sekha would do ' ma manni'
> and an arahant would do 'na mannati'.

Could you explain a little, or give a translation of
the Pali terms, please.

thanks

Jonothan


 
2090 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali

 
  Dear Pinna Lee,


--- "Indorf,Pinna Lee"  wrote:

> I
> would like to use a font
> that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words
> on the web.  

I have downloaded several pali fonts, and can't
remember, now, where I got them all.  But there are
several, I think, available via Andy Shaw's wonderful
'Palitrans':

http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/paltra.htm

There's also a brilliant piece of software there Andy
created called Paliwords, which you can download.

I believe that any font that Khun Amara installs on
her server will make it possible for us to view any
file saved in that font from her website.  But I don't
know web technology at all well, so I may be (as is so
often the case!) mistaken.

Hope this helps, and very nice to meet you.  I'm
reading Nina's AIDL at present and it is immediately
in my personal top ten best books ever read (tipitaka
aside)--and vying for the number one spot.  So
naturally I'm very glad to know that more of her
writing may soon be available on-line.

So good luck, best wishes and I hope this helps!

Mike  


 
2091 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:22am
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  I am not going to get up and ask this question about panya.  I am surprised
at the comments posted on this topic.  If panya arises, it won't necessarily
be because I asked such a question.

How can you all be so sure you know better than attendees at the WFB
conference?  How does this confidence arise?

Is there something we should know about the WFB aside from the obvious
faults of any international organsation?  Is there some kind of hidden
agenda or scandal that we should all be aware of?

The World Buddhist University web site went up yesterday. It is still under
construction, but it is a start.

http://www.wb-university.org/

Michael

 
2092 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:55am
Subject: censorship and meditation - Ajahn Santi, Wat Dhammakaya, Helen Jandamit, delusions

 
  Dear Robert

Thank you for taking the time to write those notes about Ajahn Santi,
meditation training and Helen Jandamit.  I read your message just before I
had to go out. I was thinking about what you had said and composed a few
replies in my head while sitting on the BTS electric light rail on my way to
meet with a friend.  I thought of many things. Your message has inspired me
to write another longish message exploring antipathy to meditation among
DhammaStudyGroup people as percieved by me.  I am still looking forward to
Sarah's response to my earlier message on this thread.  Amara's position as
expressed in her recent message of Wed, 22 Nov (To: Jim; Subject: Re: World
Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok) was the most
extreme recent example.

I hope some members who are anti-meditation can back up arguements with
specific examples and details of what is wrong with various meditation
methods or styles.  I have read the books on the website and provided at the
Foundation but these only provide critical details of the samadhi style
meditation techniques as being inappropriate for lay people or possibly even
inappropriate for monks these days.  Amara and others refer to "sitting with
closed eyes" without seeming to understand what is going on.

I think many of the vipassana meditation teachers would agree with some of
these criticisms. However, I have not yet found a similar detailed criticism
of the vipassana meditation techniques or books that are popular these days.
In fact the vipassana meditation techniques such as those of Goenka and
Mahasi Sayadaw are probably more popular than the samadhi methods anyway.
Comments such as those of Amara are not very informative or useful for
people such as myself who are trying to understand these issues. As Amara
admits herself, her remarks are only her opinions. I would like more detail
please.  Simply equating all meditation together and criticising is just
like someone criticising people who read books, as though all people who
read are equally competent at reading and are reading books that are equally
useful.  Should we say that all people who listen to lectures are
benefiting? We have to find out what is the content of the lecture and find
out if the member of the audience is paying attention etc.  To a casual
observer who has not practiced meditation, it may seem that meditation is
about closing the eyes and daydreaming. Actually this does happen sometimes
but so does seeing reality as it is actually happening at the six sense
doors.

AJAHN SANTI
Thank you Robert for defending Ajahn Santi. I was not criticising Ajahn
Santi personally. I was using that event as an example of how members of the
Foundation and this DhammaStudyGroup seem to be against meditation.  The
name of the meditation centre or the teacher or the method of meditation was
not mentioned at the time that Ajahn Santi made those remarks. All the
audience and Ajahn Santi knew was that it was a meditation retreat and that
is all.  Without even knowing which meditation centre or teacher or style,
Ajahn Santi discouraged them to meditate or learn anything more about it. He
did not ask the couple and nor did he explain the various popular schools
and what might be wrong with each of them. It seemed as though he believed
that all meditation schools were a waste of time.

This is similar to Sarah's wish to control the content of the Internet
search results for vipassana" (vipassana teaching resources thread). Isn't
this a form or censorship?

Robert, even your own withholding of information about Helen Jandamit was
censorship. Who are we to judge was is appropriate for others?  This issue
of right view is a thorny one indeed.

Robert wrote of Ajahn Santi:
> He apparently suggested that they would be better off studying
> Dhamma and it seemed that you thought it was inappropriate for
> him to do this. (or did I read you wrongly?)

I would have been more impressed if Ajahn Santi had not discouraged them
from meditating but rather encouraged them to read more and attend Dhamma
discussions at the Foundation and left it up to the couple to make up their
own minds.  I think that doing both meditation and study are necessary and
that neither should be neglected.  Ajahn Santi did discourage the couple
from meditating.  It is also likely that  other stronger admonitions were
being provided after the lecture by other long-time followers of the
Foundation.

How can you all be so sure you have right view and that censoring in this
way is appropriate?  What is the basis for this?

Robert wrote regarding the couple in this example:
> Firstly, I want to say that from my point of view anyone should
> do as they wish. And anyway it is up to accumulations and
> conditions what anyone will listen to and what they will
> practice. For that reason my first reaction is that you are
> right: let them do what they wish and don't try to influence
> them in any way. That is what I thought when I read your post.

This is not quite what I meant. I think that we should provide information
that we have as neutrally as possible, saying that this is "what I believe"
and "these are the reasons why I believe it", however, "you have to make up
your own mind".  This is still influencing people but it is not aggressive
or pushy.  I mean how can you be so sure that you are right?

Robert continues straight on from the above quote:
> Today I considered again. I thought about it this way: "what if
> that couple were my mother and father?" wouldn't I then try to
> direct them as far as possible in what I believed was towards
> what the Buddha really taught?. And shouldn't I try to help all
> I meet just as if they are my mother or father? "

From where I stand, it makes no difference who they are.  We usually know
our parents and have a close relationship with them and this often muddies
things a bit. However (looking for clarity), we have a duty to anyone who
crosses our path and expresses an interest in Dhamma to put accross our
understanding as it is but with the qualification that "this is only my
understanding so far, BUT... I have not achieved the goal, I am liable to
wrong view, so beware.  You have to choose.  You are responsible for your
path.  Don't trust anyone absolutely even your children or your parents."

WAT DHAMMAKAYA
Robert described the Wat Dhammakaya meditation school.  I personally don't
think of them as Theravada Buddhists either. Perhaps they should start a new
religion and call it something else but not Theravada Buddhist.  The land
deals and other corruption scandals are quite discouraging. I have never
been interested in their teaching. It seems to be very commercial and petite
bourgeois.  It may suit some people.  If their management was transparent
and accountable and there were a few other changes in their administration
as well then there may be a role for them in society. Not everyone is ready
for Paramatta Dhamma/vipassana.  Note that these remarks are made without
having studied the Dhammakaya doctrines, I am just going on what I read in
the newspaper and found out through conversations (look out).

Regarding Wat Dhammakaya, Robert continues:
>Would that couple
> be better off listening to Santi or going there?

This is the same point as above, it is not up to us to censor information.
Watch out for the straw man here!

Robert writes about fate:
>The other thing
> is that it is not by accident that the couple came to the
> foundation; Acharn Santi would know that and it is right that he
> encourages them to listen. If after they listen they decide it
> is not for them, fine they can go elsewhere and meditate as much
> as they wish. Or they can mix the two or whatever their
> accumulations lead them to do. But it is good to have had at
> least the chance to listen.

What is the basis for saying that it isn't an accident that they came to the
Foundation.  Would it be an accident if they left the Foundation?  If it
isn't an accident, then was it planned?  Who planned it and implemented it?
Do we all have some kind of destiny  meeting at the Foundation?  This
passage starts with it being no accident but then ends with it being a
chance.  What are the odds?


HELEN JANDAMIT
Robert writes:
> One more example: In an earlier letter you mentioned the
> well-known vipassana teacher Helen Jandamit and that you had
> originally contacted the foundation, not because you wanted to
> discuss Dhamma, but in the hopes of finding Acharn helens
> address. People can go along to her vipassana meditation
> retreats at Wat mahathat (where the base for mahasi style is or
> was); she has many years experience of teaching vipassana. In
> fact, I have a confession: I am just as guilty as Acharn Santi
> in that I was pleased you had found the foundation and did not
> immediately post Acharn Helens address  even though I knew it.
> This is because I thought it would be to your advantage to
> listen to Khun Sujin even if later you went elsewhere. I believe
> it was by conditions and your accumulations that you managed to
> contact the Dhamma study and support foundation.

I can update your knowledge of Wat Mahadhatu a bit here.  As far as I know,
Helen Jandamit hasn't been a regular teacher or resident of Wat Mahadhatu
for many years. I haven't actually met Helen but we share a common set of
teachers.  The Upachaya Bhikkhu who oversaw my ordination back in 2525 was
Ven. Phratepsitimuni, the head of section 5 at Wat Mahadhatu and therefore
the top Bhikkhu in charge of vipassana meditation for Thailand.  I believe
Ven. Phratepsitimuni finished the highest grade Pali exams  with distinction
and then went to Burma to study and practice vipassana meditation with
Mahasi Sayadaw as a young monk before his final position at Wat Mahadhatu.
Mahasi Sayadaw was also an eminent Pali scholar (but that is another story).
I believe that Helen practiced with Ven. Phratepsitimuni for many years and
helped teaching women (Thai and foreign) at section 5 during this period.
She also translated some of Ven. Phratepsitimuni's books and tapes from Thai
into English.  In addition to this, we have another teacher in common in the
person of Ven. Phrakrupalad Khao Titawanno (also known as Ven. Phra Khru
Bhavananusit or just Loong Poo Khao), the Abbot of Wat Boonsrimunigorn in
northeast Bangkok, where I was ordained. In fact Helen dedicated a recent
book to him.  So with these common elements, you can probably understand why
I might like to meet with her and talk about our teachers. I also wanted to
find out information about other old friends that we may have in common but
with whom I have lost touch, most particularly, George Bickel, who while in
robes was known as Annavilo Bhikkhu.  I had temporarily given up looking for
Helen but then found that she is one of the key people at the World
Fellowship of Buddhists Conference, so I shall see her there.

I visited Section 5 at Wat Mahadhatu about 3 weeks ago and found that it is
not the same as it once was. I have changed and people have come and gone.
The new people are different to the old people etc. Ven Phratepsitimuni
passed away years ago and there seems to be now one of his stature in the
Dhamma (he was actually very short physically) to replace him.  Khun Yai
(another old friend of mine), a Thai lay woman who speaks good English,
guides many of the lay women and nuns in Section 5 and helps foreigners who
pass by and stop for a while.  Jack Kornfield's guide to meditation centres
in Thailand is well out of date now and not to be relied upon.  I don't have
the time or energy to write a new version either.

I am puzzled about this censorship thing with the Foundation and
DhammaStudyGroup. How can you be so certain that you know what is best for
others?  What else is being held back with the "closed fist"?

>   Helen Jandamit's  meditation method follows the Mahasi system
> and those who go along think they are experiencing vipassana
> stages and so on.

***Robert can you elaborate on this please?  I know about the vipassana
stages (in theory) but I am very interested in why you say "go along
think(ing) they are experiencing vipassana stages and so on".   This use of
the word "thinking" is important. You seem to imply that followers of this
approach are not really experiencing vipassana stages. Is this right?  Can
you write some more about this or cite some books or articles I can read
about it.  I am very interested in this issue and would be very grateful if
you could help me on this point.***

DELUSIONS
Robert continues describing Helen Janamit's teaching:
>For some time she has been claiming to be
> channelling not only the Archangel Michael but also the Buddha
> himself; you can go to her website and read what the Buddha
> tells her. I would guess you were unaware of this? Despite
> micchaditthi (wrong view) revealing itself to this degree she
> has a sizeable following who think she is showing them the way
> to nibbana. If you are still interested you can find all the
> details at this site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/al/dhamma/home.html
> Her centre's address is 26/9 Lardprao Lane 15
> Jatujak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand

I shall visit this site soon and see what she has to say. I am very
interested in this and if true, I am also very disappointed. This is a
person who has read very widely and deeply in the Tipitaka and would know
well what is and is not considered to be the Buddha Dhamma.  This knowledge
Dhamma has not prevented her from taking this wrong view. It might not be
productive to speculate about it by I am curious about how this arose?

It isn't the first time that something like this has happened. I have seen
it before. I knew some foreign monks in Thailand who were using Carols
Castenada - Don Juan mythology and mixing this with Buddhadasa Buddhism and
Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana.  According to the wrong views of these monks, the
Ajahn became a Nagual and these monks became key off-siders (I forgot the
technical term Castenada uses). This all happened seemingly without the
knowledge of the Thai Ajahn.   Needless to say the foreign monks  were a bit
confused and confusing. Fortunately for me I had already read 4 or 5 books
in the Castenada series while in my teens so I was not "sucked in".  Perhaps
because of experiences like these, I am quite wary.  This wariness may be
evident in some of my remarks. I do think I am old enough now to be able to
make up my mind about what is Buddhism and what is not. Robert (and Sarah)
please don't "protect" me from the delusions of others, but do shake me by
the shoulder (by e-mail if not in person) if you think I'm heading that way.
Of course I shall do the same.

Even if there are many more cases of people who have practiced meditation
and started seeing visions or attempting to merge Buddhism with something
else, we shouldn't assume that this is so with all meditators. Would you say
that because some people who drive cars badly and crash into others that all
car drivers are bad?  Would you say that all people who read the Tipitaka
and misunderstood it and taught wrongly (according to someone's judgement)
means that all people who read the Tipitaka are wrong and bound to have
wrong view?  Please don't judge meditators so harshly yet.  We need some
more substantive arguments and evidence first.

Michael

 
2093 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Good one, Ms. P-A,

And, since you like a laugh, here's the text of a
message I've just sent off to BPS.  Hope you find it
amusing...

Dear Sir or Ma'am,
 
I have been entirely frustrated in my attempts to
find, on your website, the order form mentioned in
your 'Ordering info'.
 
This has occasioned the arising of many moments of the
second nivarana with their attendant opportunities for
the cultivation of understanding of them, for which I
say, anumodhana.
 
However, I would still like to proceed with the
ordering process.  Kindly advise at your convenience.
 
Thanks in advance and, in retrospect, for all your
wonderful work.
 
Sincerely,
 
m. nease 

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:
> --- Jim Anderson  wrote
> > Dear Sarah,
> > 
> > I was thinking of bringing the two together in the
> > same sitting. Instead of
> > just trying to focus on the breath, I would have
> the
> > option of engaging in
> > dhamma study if desired. This would be helpful
> when
> > the mind is too
> > distracted to stay focussed on the breath as is
> > often the case. The idea it
> > that the dhamma study is substituted for the type
> of
> > discursive thinking
> > that just goes around in circles going nowhere. By
> > dhamma study in a sitting
> > (or another posture) I mean working with the Pali
> > texts directly from memory
> > by recitation or reflection without the aid of a
> > book in front of me.
> 
> I think recitation and reflection (with or without
> the
> aid of a book) can be extremely helpful. Of course
> it
> all depends on the understanding while reciting or
> reflecting...as khun Sujin is fond of saying, a
> phrase
> reflected on with right understanding is more useful
> than reading the whole Tipitaka with wrong
> understanding, especially wrong understanding of
> self.
> I tend to read a few sentences or hear a phrase on a
> tape and reflect on it during the day whilst
> teaching
> (work teaching), hiking, doing my yoga or whatever.
> For this reason, I seldom finish a text and there
> are
> large chunks of the Tipitaka I haven't read or read
> so
> long ago I've forgotten whether I've read them or
> not!
> 
> On the other hand if I'm distracted or 'my' mind is
> going round in circles, I don't feel this is any
> impediment to my practice. There are different
> realities at these times which can be known too. If
> there is right understanding, there is right
> concentration automatically at that moment on the
> object appearing.
> > 
> > I have been trying it out and am finding it to be
> a
> > better way. Dhamma study
> > also helps to focus and concentrate the mind. I
> have
> > noticed that after
> > spending some time with the study part and then
> > turning my attention back to
> > the breath, the breath is clearer.
> > 
> 
> Conventionally I agree it's important to focus and
> concentrate the mind. For example, we can say that
> when you're translating a pali text you need to do
> these. Of course, in reality, it's an illusion to
> think that the mind can be concentrated at will or
> that in terms of the development of satipatthana
> that
> these more 'concentrated' times are any more
> suitable.
> 
> You also raise the subject of breath and
> anapannasati.
> Others have mentioned their meditations on breath
> too.
> This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to
> hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect.
> 
> You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which
> case
> pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I
> know
> you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply
> and
> respect that you may not want to discuss your own
> 'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the
> translation work too!
> 
> I hope you get yr email problems sorted out. At
> least
> yr messages aren't coming out in duplicate with long
> time delays as mine were until I changed to yahoo.
> (Maybe it's sth do do with server alliances, but I
> have no idea really!).
> 
> Best rgds and pls don't apologise for delays.
> 
> Sarah
> 


 
2094 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 10:17am
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  > I am not going to get up and ask this question about panya.  I am 
surprised
> at the comments posted on this topic.  If panya arises, it won't 
necessarily
> be because I asked such a question.


Dear Michael,

See how you could not control even what you do?  There's anatta for 
you.

> 
> How can you all be so sure you know better than attendees at the WFB
> conference?  How does this confidence arise?


I am not: if you reread what I said, these are the exact words: 
'We count on you to ask them a lot of questions, 
for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray from realities we 
would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they can tell you 
about the realities before them, we should rejoice!!!'  What's wrong 
with this exactly?  Or does panna concern anything else but 
realities and the dhamma which also means the truth, the Buddha's 
teachings?

 
> Is there something we should know about the WFB aside from the 
obvious
> faults of any international organsation?  Is there some kind of 
hidden
> agenda or scandal that we should all be aware of?


Is there?  What does that concern what is taught there or what is 
discussed there in any case?


Amara

 
2095 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 10:27am
Subject: Re: censorship and meditation - Ajahn Santi, Wat Dhammakaya, Helen Jandamit, delusions

 
  > Your message has inspired me
> to write another longish message exploring antipathy to meditation 
among
> DhammaStudyGroup people as percieved by me.  I am still looking 
forward to
> Sarah's response to my earlier message on this thread.  Amara's 
position as
> expressed in her recent message of Wed, 22 Nov (To: Jim; Subject: 
Re: World
> Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok) was the 
most
> extreme recent example.


Dear Micheal,

Since you picked my letter as an extreme example of anti-meditation, 
I would like to say that I have nothing against meditators, any more 
than other religions on earth, I am only sorry they do not study the 
teachings and realities that appear normally in daily life as well 
which would of course keep them from learning the Buddha's teachings 
which does seem to me a waste of time (even of lifetimes!).  I also 
said that that did not apply to meditators who studied as they sit.  
The exact quote:

'I could go on and on about the present state of the sankha and the 
lack of study of the Buddha's teachings from the direct source of  
the Tipitaka and following 'simplified and improved' methods of 
practice in classes of individual teachers these days, which is 
really an insult to the Buddha's teachings because had there been a 
better and faster way he would certainly have not said that it was 
the eka-magga. Yet most of the people who practice have never really 
studied his words before proceding to 'sit'.  They take a phrase 
here and a quotation there and interpret it as they please and do 
not see his teachings as a whole that work together to explain a 
great reality, the truth, which can  be proven right now, even as we 
sit here and see light and color, so different from sounds and 
touches at your fingertips, each reality able to teach us of their 
different characteristics which when accumulated to a certain level, 
could spectacularly show is the complete separation of nama and 
rupa, never to be subject of doubt again.  These same realities that 
continuously present themselves could lead to higher and higher 
knowledge respectively and culminate in the eradication of all 
kilesa, if the study continues and panna accumulates.

This is the kind of knowledge people often consider too hard and 
unnecessary, most would rather go and sit with their eyes closed and 
not study realities, but expect panna to arise, never knowing that 
they do that with the self full of lobha for things to happen.  That 
does not apply to those who sit with the awareness of realities, 
that they are attached to the posture, that thoughts arise and fall 
away just like any reality, that all are anatta, that panna could 
arise as they sit if sati also arises to know the realities that 
appeat to the citta with sati then.  But for the person to know 
that, he must have prior knowledge of what sati is and what panna is 
and how they arise and operate.  Which still requires some studying 
on the intellectual level in any case.' 

(End quote-  it feels wierd to quote myself, by the way.)

I would appologize and will if you could point out anything untrue 
or slanderous of anyone at all here.  I have never been above 
admitting my mistakes when I saw that I am wrong, and being the 
ordinary person as opposed to the ariya I have often been wrong.  
But if you were fair enough, Michael, instead of being so defensive 
of meditators, why don't you consider what others are saying to see 
if what is being said is true?

The individual has his accumulations, and they should realize that.  
Sit as much as you want, as long as panna arises of realities as 
they really are.  What is the use otherwise?  In the Buddha's days 
more arahantas did not attain the jhanas, according to the Tipitaka, 
or do you contest this?  Therefore the jhanas are not necessary to 
condition enlightenment of any level, not even the very first, 
feeble nana of vipassana or the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, which 
leads to all other vipassana level, and enlightenment of all levels.  
Do you agree?

Samma-samadhi is extremely hard and require many conditions to 
arise, (see Tan Ajaan's explanations in the chapter on Samatha-
Bhavana in the 'Summary' in the advanced section of 
<http://dhammastudy.com/>) whereas Vipassana could arise under almost 
any conditions except with akusala citta and even then they could 
alternate, and when there are the five nivarana-dhamma.  Do you 
disagree?  Miccha-samadhi is very dangerous, could lead to all kinds 
of abnormalities and such, is that not true?  Vipassana in daily 
life is most beneficent and accumulates knowledge and could never be 
harmful in any way, or don't you agree?

Which is why samadhi has never interested me, although if you prefer 
that, go ahead, no one can force anyone else to do anything, in the 
end, and as you yourself experienced earlier, not even you yourself 
can.  In fact for me, that might be better than doing things like 
going hunting or fishing as I have seen priests do in other 
religions and regions of the world.  That would not condition panna 
to arise.  But if it were samma-samadhi, full of kusala-citta 
although without anatta there would still be the self that is so 
full of kusala and not just realities that arise and fall away as 
kusala citta, there would inevitably be clinging to that state, and 
no further panna accumulated, rather more hidden akusala clinging 
to the self and the jhanas achieved.  Do you see the harm in this?  
The Buddha did and that is why he taught vipassana even as 
one 'meditates', but not only then, one could do that anywhere, I 
repeat, deep sea diving, skiing on mountain tops or sitting in front 
of the computer screen seeing diverse colors (and recognizing them 
as pannati-different moments) or touching keys and mouses (mice?) 
and thinking and the rest.  Other poeple have other preferences, and 
most of the great arahantas did have jhana, I simply don't think I 
have the requirements for such a difficult path that leads to what I 
am not interested in.  I am however interested in panna, in what the 
Buddha taught which I am confident is the best and most direct way 
possible, something I could prove for myself and not depend on 
someone else to tell me about my personal experiences, not even Tan 
Ajaan, although I am greatly indebted to her for teaching me how, in 
fact for giving me a new life, and of this none could ever convince 
me otherwise.  Again this is my personal thought and I am not trying 
to convince anyone against anything, only they could do it for 
themselves in the end.  

I don't think the other topics concern me, so I hope to hear from 
you again soon,

Amara

 
2096 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 11:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] censorship and meditation - Ajahn Santi, Wat Dhammakaya, Helen Jandamit, delusions

 
  --- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > Dear
Robert

Dear michael,
Thank you for your detailed letter. 

> Robert, even your own withholding of information about Helen
> Jandamit was
> censorship. Who are we to judge was is appropriate for others?

OK. I am guilty of censorship.



>  This issue
> of right view is a thorny one indeed.
> 
> Robert wrote of Ajahn Santi:
> > He apparently suggested that they would be better off
> studying
> > Dhamma and it seemed that you thought it was inappropriate
> for
> > him to do this. (or did I read you wrongly?)
> 
> I would have been more impressed if Ajahn Santi had not
> discouraged them
> from meditating but rather encouraged them to read more and
> attend Dhamma
> discussions at the Foundation and left it up to the couple to
> make up their
> own minds. 

But won't they make up their own minds anyway? 

 I think that doing both meditation and study are
> necessary and
> that neither should be neglected.  Ajahn Santi did discourage
> the couple
> from meditating.  It is also likely that  other stronger
> admonitions were
> being provided after the lecture by other long-time followers
> of the
> Foundation.
 The last time I went to Khunying napporots house (where they
discuss Dhamma once a month) a lady suggested that I should
spend a month at an Achan cha temple to do meditataion, She told
me she has been listening to Achran sujin for 10 years but finds
she needs both.  I said this didn't interest me but the fact is
you will find numerous people who listen to acharn sujin who
also meditate. Indeed some meditation teachers lsiten to Acarn
sujins radio program. I think you will find that you can put
your views about this again and again and again- we will be
happy if you do. We will never say, on this list, that you
cannot. If we did say you couldn't put forward your opinion this
would be censorship. On the other hand some of us will put
forward our ideas as well- some of them may conflict with yours.

You write
> "How can you all be so sure you have right view and that
> censoring in this
> way is appropriate?  What is the basis for this?
I mean how can you be so sure that you are right?"

This is fair comment. perhaps I am under a major delusion.
Perhaps the Tipitika is all wrong. Maybe the world is controlled
by  a God. Or maybe we are all dreaming the whole thing. I think
it is hard to be sure of anything. However I think when I write
or speak people usually know that it is the personal opinion of
the speaker. I don't have to put "in my opinion" in front of
everything I write or say. Nor to I have to conclude every
statement with "I might be wrong". This is taken for granted. In
fact I notice you make some similar statements where you seem to
imply you know that a group is wrong (implying that your view is
right) You say:
"WAT DHAMMAKAYA
> Robert described the Wat Dhammakaya meditation school.  I
> personally don't
> think of them as Theravada Buddhists either. Perhaps they
> should start a new
> religion and call it something else but not Theravada
> Buddhist.  ..... I
> have never
> been interested in their teaching."  I am sure Wat Dhammkaya
people would feel this was injust nevertheless I agree with you.

To be really and truly absolutely honest though we would have to
say, wouldn't we, that they could be right? We might be under
some delusion. A couple of years ago  cult memebers in san Diego
killed themselves because they thought that Aliens in a comet
were taking them to heaven (HEAvens Gate cult). My strong
opinion is that they are wrong. However I don't know that.
Perhaps they are now in Heaven enjoying eternal bliss. 



> Robert writes about fate:
> >The other thing
> > is that it is not by accident that the couple came to the
> > foundation; Acharn Santi would know that and it is right
> that he
> > encourages them to listen. If after they listen they decide
> it
> > is not for them, fine they can go elsewhere and meditate as
> much
> > as they wish. Or they can mix the two or whatever their
> > accumulations lead them to do. But it is good to have had at
> > least the chance to listen.
> 
> What is the basis for saying that it isn't an accident that
> they came to the
> Foundation.  Would it be an accident if they left the
> Foundation?  If it
> isn't an accident, then was it planned?  Who planned it and
> implemented it?
> Do we all have some kind of destiny  meeting at the
> Foundation?  This
> passage starts with it being no accident but then ends with it
> being a
> chance.  What are the odds?

You see my main guidance comes from the Tipitika. According to
the Abhidhamma EACH and EVERY moment is conditioned by a various
conditions. We have been talking about these recently, the 24
paccaya elucidated in the Patthana. In loose terms kamma and its
results. The reason we ever heard Buddhism is not by chance it
is because of conditions from the past and present. Likewise the
reason we hear wrong teachings is conditioned too. This is not
fate, neither is is controlled by anyone. 
It is not chance that you became interested in Buddhism. It was
conditioned because also in past lives you were interested. 
> 
> 
> HELEN JANDAMIT
> > I can update your knowledge of Wat Mahadhatu a bit here.  As
> far as I know,
> Helen Jandamit hasn't been a regular teacher or resident of
> Wat Mahadhatu
> for many years. 

According to her Website she still teaches meditation retreats
there.


I haven't actually met Helen but we share a
> common set of
> teachers.  The Upachaya Bhikkhu who oversaw my ordination back
> in 2525 was
> Ven. Phratepsitimuni, the head of section 5 at Wat Mahadhatu
> and therefore
> the top Bhikkhu in charge of vipassana meditation for
> Thailand.  I believe
> Ven. Phratepsitimuni finished the highest grade Pali exams 
> with distinction
> and then went to Burma to study and practice vipassana
> meditation with
> Mahasi Sayadaw as a young monk before his final position at
> Wat Mahadhatu.
> Mahasi Sayadaw was also an eminent Pali scholar (but that is
> another story).
> I believe that Helen practiced with Ven. Phratepsitimuni for
> many years and
> helped teaching women (Thai and foreign) at section 5 during
> this period.
> She also translated some of Ven. Phratepsitimuni's books and
> tapes from Thai
> into English.  In addition to this, we have another teacher in
> common in the
> person of Ven. Phrakrupalad Khao Titawanno (also known as Ven.
> Phra Khru
> Bhavananusit or just Loong Poo Khao), the Abbot of Wat
> Boonsrimunigorn in
> northeast Bangkok, where I was ordained. In fact Helen
> dedicated a recent
> book to him.  I had temporarily given
> up looking for
> Helen but then found that she is one of the key people at the
> World
> Fellowship of Buddhists Conference, so I shall see her there.
> 

Thank you very much for all this background. You never mentioned
that you had such close connections when you posted the original
letter. And in fact you didn't mention that you were seriously
looking for her anymore.  If I known all this I would have sent
you the address immediately.

> I am puzzled about this censorship thing with the Foundation
> and
> DhammaStudyGroup. How can you be so certain that you know what
> is best for
> others?  What else is being held back with the "closed fist"?

Interesting analogy. You are referring to the Buddha saying that
he does not teach with a closed fist. All I can say is that the
teachers I know at the foundation give everything they know
about Dhamma whenever I ask. In fact I have met many other
Dhamma teachers and often I find that after a short time many of
them seem to get bored with questions. I remeber once I asked a
meditation teacher about anatta and he told me just to keep
sitting "what you are asking about is just theory. It can't help
you". he made me feel so stupid that I actually stopped studying
Dhamma for several months. I have spent hours at a time with
Khun Sujin and she has always answered all my questions without
any sign of impatience.
 I think the closed fist the Buddha was talking about was not
referring to such examples as: myself not immediately giving you
the address of someone who has (in my opinion) an obvious wrong
understanding of Dhamma. I think if I was stingy with Dhamma and
did not explain what I know that this would be a closed fist.
You can check out the numerous letters I have written on this
list and see whether you think it is fair to say that I "hold
back with the "closed fist"".
 



> > DELUSIONS
> Robert continues describing Helen Janamit's teaching:
> >For some time she has been claiming to be
> > channelling not only the Archangel Michael but also the
> Buddha
> > himself; you can go to her website and read what the Buddha
> > tells her. I would guess you were unaware of this? Despite
> > micchaditthi (wrong view) revealing itself to this degree
> she
> > has a sizeable following who think she is showing them the
> way
> > to nibbana. If you are still interested you can find all the
> > details at this site:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/al/dhamma/home.html
> > Her centre's address is 26/9 Lardprao Lane 15
> > Jatujak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand
> 
> I shall visit this site soon and see what she has to say. I am
> very
> interested in this and if true, I am also very disappointed.

Michael I don't understand. You have written this letter highly
critical of my stance but now you seem to be saying that you
know Acharn helen has wrong view because she channels the
Buddha. You wrote earlier "How can you all be so sure you have
right view and that
> censoring in this
> way is appropriate?  What is the basis for this?
How do you know you are right?" 
Well now I ask how do you know she isn't in direct communication
with the Buddha? As you describe she has been through long years
training with all these teachers that you think highly of. As
you note she is an important speaker at the World Foundation of
Buddhists. She has been teaching  meditation for years. Why do
you assume she knows less than you? 
> This is a
> person who has read very widely and deeply in the Tipitaka and
> would know
> well what is and is not considered to be the Buddha Dhamma.

Here you seem to be saying that the Tipitika is the basis we
should rely on. I agree.

> This knowledge
> Dhamma has not prevented her from taking this wrong view. It
> might not be
> productive to speculate about it by I am curious about how
> this arose?

Would you ask her when you meet? Or do you feel that anyone is
entitled to their opinion and should not be hindered or
corrected or censored in any way. Would you still recommend that
anyone go to her and learn meditation?  Of course anyone can
read the whole Tipitika and still see it through the eyes of
"self". I said recently that I am reading the Visuddhimagga
again and how different it is than when I first read it. When i
first studied it was all "me" reading it.
 
> It isn't the first time that something like this has happened.
> I have seen
> it before. I knew some foreign monks in Thailand who were
> using Carols
> Castenada - Don Juan mythology and mixing this with Buddhadasa
> Buddhism and
> Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana.  According to the wrong views of
> these monks, the
> Ajahn became a Nagual and these monks became key off-siders (I
> forgot the
> technical term Castenada uses). This all happened seemingly
> without the
> knowledge of the Thai Ajahn.   Needless to say the foreign
> monks  were a bit
> confused and confusing. Fortunately for me I had already read
> 4 or 5 books
> in the Castenada series while in my teens so I was not "sucked
> in".  Perhaps
> because of experiences like these, I am quite wary. 

Yes I have seen many other examples too. For this reason I will
always do my best to try to help people in a direction that I
believe will most help them. As you indicate I may be under a
major delusion but it doesn't seem that way (then again delusion
never does). If this is censorship then so be it. I will
continue doing so. 
> 
> Even if there are many more cases of people who have practiced
> meditation
> and started seeing visions or attempting to merge Buddhism
> with something
> else, we shouldn't assume that this is so with all meditators.

I agree.  My main concern is with wrong view. In fact I meditate
a lot myself. But right view arises because of listening, and
considering and appying correctly. People don't see this and
mistake calm and strange experiences for vippassana.


> Would you say
> that because some people who drive cars badly and crash into
> others that all
> car drivers are bad?  Would you say that all people who read
> the Tipitaka
> and misunderstood it and taught wrongly (according to
> someone's judgement)
> means that all people who read the Tipitaka are wrong and
> bound to have
> wrong view?  Please don't judge meditators so harshly yet. 

The thing is no one these days can meditate properly without
understanding Dhamma. My only concern is that people listen
enough to Dhamma. If they want to meditate that is fine but I
will continue to encourage them to study and consider.  For
instance if anyone on this discussion group wants to go on a
meditation retreat with any teacher at all it is fine by me; I
will continue to write to them in exactly the same way. And I
know khun sujin and others will continue to help them. On the
other hand I will point out wrong view or wrong practice when
(in my opinion) they have it. If this is censorship so be it.


Robert




 
2097 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 0:36pm
Subject: Vipassana meditation reply to michael

 
  .Dear Michael,
 I hope some members who are anti-meditation can back up
> arguements with
> specific examples and details of what is wrong with various
> meditation
> methods or styles.  I have read the books on the website and
> provided at the
> Foundation but these only provide critical details of the
> samadhi style
> meditation techniques as being inappropriate for lay people or
> possibly even
> inappropriate for monks these days.  Amara and others refer to
> "sitting with
> closed eyes" without seeming to understand what is going on.
> 
> I think many of the vipassana meditation teachers would agree
> with some of
> these criticisms. However, I have not yet found a similar
> detailed criticism
> of the vipassana meditation techniques or books that are
> popular these days.
> In fact the vipassana meditation techniques such as those of
> Goenka and
> Mahasi Sayadaw are probably more popular than the samadhi
> methods anyway.
> Comments such as those of Amara are not very informative or
> useful for
> people such as myself who are trying to understand these
> issues. As Amara
> admits herself, her remarks are only her opinions. I would
> like more detail
> please. 

Yes. Detail is most useful. I have asked you several times
though for details about how you believe satipatthna should be
developed. You refered us to mahasi sayadaw. However, as  you
have stressed different people interpret his practice
differently. Rather than me trying to guess what the sayadaw
meant could you explain exactly how YOU understand it.

it may seem that
> meditation is
> about closing the eyes and daydreaming. Actually this does
> happen sometimes
> but so does seeing reality as it is actually happening at the
> six sense
> doors.

Great so please descibe what IS actually happening at the six
sense doors as you understand it. I have talked with many people
who meditate and don't meditate and they all have different
ideas about this. I don't know if you include me as
anti-meditation? Since I meditate this would not be really
correct. If you mean I am anti-meditation because I don't go on
retreats lead by "trained and experienced practioners", as you
put it earlier, then perhaps I am. Sometimes, though, I go and
stay by myself in a little hut in the forest. I take a few
Dhamma books and spend the time reading, walking and
contemplating- and studying dhammas as they appear. I haven't
been able to do that recently because of my family
responisiblities but I will do so when times are right. 
Robert





 
2098 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 2:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana meditation reply to michael

 
  Dear michael,
I forgot to come back to this section of your letter:
You wrote
> ***Robert can you elaborate on this please?  I know about the
> vipassana
> stages (in theory) but I am very interested in why you say "go
> along
> think(ing) they are experiencing vipassana stages and so on". 
>  This use of
> the word "thinking" is important. You seem to imply that
> followers of this
> approach are not really experiencing vipassana stages. Is this
> right?  Can
> you write some more about this or cite some books or articles
> I can read
> about it.  I am very interested in this issue and would be
> very grateful if
> you could help me on this point.***
> 

I will write more on this - a most difficult subject- but first
I would like you to reply in your comprehensive and clear way
about the development of satipatthana and your experiences of
seeing realities "as they are at the six doors". Also I sent a
reply to your post
(Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana)on
Monday which you very nicely thanked me for, but you didn't
address most of the points I brought up. Could you look over it
again and give some reponse.
Robert



 
2099 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 2:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  Dear michael,
Amara wrote:
Dear Michael,

"As our Cambodian trip will be from the 4th to the 9th, as far
as I 
remember, you will have to represent us at the conference, if
you 
are attending, and please be our observer as well, so you can
tell 
us all about it!  We count on you to ask them a lot of
questions, 
for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray from
realities we 
would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they can tell you

about the realities before them, we should rejoice!!!  (Don't
tell 
them this though!)  Either way it should be interesting, enjoy,"

You seemed to take offense at this. You wrote:
--- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > I am
not going to get up and ask this question about panya.  I
> am surprised
> at the comments posted on this topic.  If panya arises, it
> won't necessarily
> be because I asked such a question.
> 
> How can you all be so sure you know better than attendees at
> the WFB
> conference?  How does this confidence arise?
> 
> Is there something we should know about the WFB aside from the
> obvious
> faults of any international organsation?  Is there some kind
> of hidden
> agenda or scandal that we should all be aware of?" 

I think you took Amara's comments a little seriously. As I
indicated in my post you possibly might not meet so many peolple
anyway. I only spoke to one at any length - and that person did
a lot more talking than me. And there is no chance of you asking
any questions to the whole assembly; only registered speakers
can do that. She meant ask and discuss just as we do when we
meet (is that what you meant Amara?)- that is how I took it
anyway. I also don't think she meant to imply any scandals or
hidden agendas- nor did my letter mean to. 
robert
> 
> 
> 



 
 
2100 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 2:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali

 
  Pinna

It's great that you are willing to do this, and that
Nina has agreed to you doing so.

I am not quite clear as to what the problem is
exactly.  Have you tried using the program from
before, and sending a sample page or 2 to Amara to see
how it works when uploaded to her website?

Jonothan


--- "Indorf,Pinna Lee"  wrote: >
Dear DSSFB Group,
> I'm getting set to retype Nina van Gorkom's letters
> from about 1975 onward
> for placement on the web (and perhaps eventually
> other forms of
> distribution) with her approval and permission. I
> would like to use a font
> that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words
> on the web.  
> For my coursework (on Hindu-Buddhist architecture)
> which went on the web,
> the I.T. unit here at NUS (Singapore) used a program
> 'embedded fonts' which
> was able to display the fonts on I.Explorer 5. The
> font I used was one I
> created with Fontographer (for mac and pc) which I
> can send to Amara (or
> others who need such a font) and maybe it will work
> in the same way our NUS
> web works, but only through Explorer 5. I also have
> something called
> 'Dtimes' which works on mac (but I don't know if it
> is around for pc). The
> Word font Amara uses (Tahoma) for her own work is
> not available on mac. 
> Does anyone have suggestions for solving this
> problem?
> Pinna
> p.s. I much appreciate the lively discussions,
> especially on abhidhamma, and
> grapbling with 'reality.'




 
2101 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 3:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Jim A


> I don't know if Jonothan is yet in Ottawa for the
> conference, but I can tell
> you that winter has finally arrived here (about a
> week ago) and we had the
> coldest night so far last night. My thermometer read
> 2F (-17C) this
> morning. Brrrr... it's time to throw another log on
> the fire.

I have in fact finished my visit to Ottawa, and
managed to excape before the real cold set in
(although it was quite cold enough at -3C, thank you).

I hope you have a good supply of firewood for the next
few months.  Otherwise your energy will be used up
keeping warm rather than studying texts!  However, the
study of realities can continue whatever the
circumstances - adversity is no obstacle to awareness
of the reality appearing at the present moment, once
the understanding of that has been developed.

Jonothan


 
2102 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:22pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali

 
  Dear Mike and Jonothan

Thanks for the feedback.  I have looked up Andy's page and will go back to
it when I have more time and access to a printer (office hours).  I do not
work on Windows, but the font may be more suitable than the one I created.

Jonothan, Amara has indicated to me that she does not put diacritical marks
in the things she puts on the web, because they do not read properly on the
screen and I do not know the technical details of 'embedded fonts' which our
technical unit used for my course web page, but it took them a while to get
it working. I don't know if Amara would be able to do it and it only works
for Explorer 5 and above, so the question was for something more universal
and readily available.  I will, however, give Amara a copy of the font I
made if we do not find anything else. I will check out Andy's font. 

Pinna

> ----------
> From: 	m. nease
> Sent: 	Saturday, November 25, 2000 3:48 AM
> Subject: 	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Fonts for Pali
> 
> Dear Pinna Lee,
> 
> 
> --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee"  wrote:
> 
> > I
> > would like to use a font
> > that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words
> > on the web.  
> 
> I have downloaded several pali fonts, and can't
> remember, now, where I got them all.  But there are
> several, I think, available via Andy Shaw's wonderful
> 'Palitrans':
> 
> http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/paltra.htm
> 
> There's also a brilliant piece of software there Andy
> created called Paliwords, which you can download.
> 
> I believe that any font that Khun Amara installs on
> her server will make it possible for us to view any
> file saved in that font from her website.  But I don't
> know web technology at all well, so I may be (as is so
> often the case!) mistaken.
> 
> Hope this helps, and very nice to meet you.  I'm
> reading Nina's AIDL at present and it is immediately
> in my personal top ten best books ever read (tipitaka
> aside)--and vying for the number one spot.  So
> naturally I'm very glad to know that more of her
> writing may soon be available on-line.
> 
> So good luck, best wishes and I hope this helps!
> 
> Mike  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

 
2103 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 10:58pm
Subject: vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael

 
  Dear Robert, Sarah, Amara and Sukin

After reading the e-mails exchanged recently and reflecting on the Dhamma
discussions I have participated in at the Foundation, I have decided to
suspend active participation in the list to research and write down my
(mis)understanding of vipassana. This break will also give Sarah time to
respond to the Teaching Vipassana Resources thread.

Today's English language Dhamma discussion group at the Foundation was
largely taken up with responding to my questions.  Jack kindly offered to
teach me some Abhidhamma. I may take him up on that later.  After the
session, Amara and I shook hands.

I feel embarrassed that I have taken up so many good people's time and
energy and yet stubbornly resist progress.  I hope you all will be patient
with me as I take this time out to research and write an essay or dot points
or whatever it will become. If nothing else, the encounter with this group
has stimulated me to search for the words to describe my understanding of
vipassana.  I also want to also find the Tipitaka sources for this
understanding.

If all goes to plan, I may then post the result to the list or take it to
the discussion group or both. This document may then give Robert and others
interested in vipassana meditation a clearer picture of my level, or the
quality of understanding. If not then the document may form the basis for
further discussions on these threads, particularly if it is linked back to
the Tipitaka.

Sukin told Neil and I this afternoon that  it would be good for Foundation
members to find a way to explain the problems of vipassana meditation to
meditators who encounter the Foundation. So I proceed with the hope that
further efforts to clarify these issues will benefit many others as well.

I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will eventually answer those
questions asked by Robert and Amara at a later date. Please stand by for a
few days or a week.

Michael J

 
2104 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2000 11:05pm
Subject: Sarah and others coming to Bangkok

 
  Dear Sarah and others coming to Bangkok on the way to Cambodia

Sarah you mentioned in an earlier e-mail that you will be in Bangkok before
and after going to Cambodia.

As I understand the routine (http://www.dhammastudy.com/schedule.html ),
every first Saturday in the month is all day Dhamma discussion in Thai
language at Khunying Noparatana's house.  I don't know if you will be
attending on Saturday, 2 December?  I am still not sure myself yet. It is
possible that I may be busy with other activities that Saturday.  Perhaps we
could meet on Sunday, 3 December?  Unfortunately I shall be quite busy on
the weekend of 9 and 10 Demember with voluntary work at the World Fellowship
of Buddhists Conference.

If you would like to meet I can be contacted by e-mail on
protectID or by telephone in Bangkok on 216 0400 ext 3220.
More contact details are on my web site http://www.ozemail,com.au/~jiesheng/

Michael J

 
2105 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 1:25am
Subject: Re: vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael

 
  > I feel embarrassed that I have taken up so many good people's time 
and
> energy and yet stubbornly resist progress.  I hope you all will be 
patient
> with me as I take this time out to research and write an essay or 
dot points
> or whatever it will become. If nothing else, the encounter with this 
group
> has stimulated me to search for the words to describe my 
understanding of
> vipassana.  I also want to also find the Tipitaka sources for this
> understanding.


Dear Michael,

I really feel that you are overstretched, and need to take it easy, 
perhaps relax your work schedule a little.  If I were you I would 
concentrate on your research and study a little with Jack, perhaps 
help him edit English tapes for the radio, so you can listen to some 
of our earlier English discussions, some of which are quite good, 
and get LOTS OF SLEEP.  Remember all are only nama and rupa and you 
can't force anything to happen, just know them as they are, (and not 
try to name them so much, remember the present!)  I hope you will 
join us while our friends from abroad are here, we hope to hold 
several discussions, some of which will be hosted be Sarah and 
Jonothan precisely.  As the situation in Cambodia is rather unstable, 
there might be some changes in plan, but I hope to keep everyone 
updated, so please check here or call Elle and Ivan, whose numbers 
are also on the schedules page.

See you soon,

Amara

 
2106 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 9:54am
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,

Firstly, let's get this clear. No one is saying any of it is easy! 
Secondly, take it easy and just reply when you like. There needs to be 
plenty of consideration and digestion! Sorry for my delay..I'm going 
to go thr' now (7am on Sunday mornijng) to see if I have anything to 
add.

I'll just mention a couple of points raised in yr later posts first. 

Please don't think that I or anyone else is trying to day 'don't go 
and do your vipassana meditation' or that it has no benefits.  
Personally, I think it may have many benefits, such as health 
benefits. But when we are talking about the development of 
satipatthana or vipassana as taught by the Buddha, that's another 
matter. for this, we need to look at 'our' practice very carefullly.

I'm goint to cut out big chujnks of yr post, following yr earlier 
suggestions about the length of posts on this list!

> 
> The main point I was trying to make in my earlier
> message was that
> instructing others about vipassana meditation is a
> big responsibility with
> consequences.  Without a very good knowledge of the
> Dhamma both from the
> Tipitaka and insight through direct experience
> setting up to be a teacher or
> a student of such a teacher is frought with danger
> despite possibly good
> intentions.

agreed. this raises the question of what is vipassana and what is 
meditation or bhavana?
> 
> The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do,
> is to recommend to anyone
> I meet who is interested in vipassana that they
> should associate with people
> who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of
> Dhamma, listen to a lot of
> Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course
> run by trained and
> experienced practioners, just as I have recommended
> in this and the earlier
> message.
> 
By vipass med course I asume you mean one taught by Mr Goenka (or his 
students) or one in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition. What is the purpose 
and how does the course help?

> Here are some links to texts for Dhamma teachers and
> recommendations by the
> Lord Buddha that we can read online in English
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html#sorts
> Digha Nikaya 12  Lohicca Sutta
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-159.html
> Anguttara Nikaya V.159   Udayi Sutta
> (another sutta with relevance to aspiring teachers
> of Dhamma)
> 
good quotes and reminders about the practice, the development of 
understanding. Yes, it's one thing teaching the abhidhamma or  
meditation or anything else. It's another thing to develop 
understanding at this moment. So the qu is how is understanding 
developed at this moment?

> Perhaps participating in a list like this we are
> part student and part
> teacher. I prefer to think of myself as student
> because there is still so
> much ignorance, greed and aversion.

I'm sure we're all agreed on this.
> 
> A teacher with so much ingnorance, greed and
> aversion can knowingly and
> unknowingly lead others astray, behave badly and
> bring the Sasana into
> disrepute.
> 
> When we mention a relevant sutta or personal
> experience we are not teaching
> so much as exchanging information among friends in
> the Dhamma.

yes, well put.
> 
 raise questions. One of the long time followers
> introduced two new people
> (Thais), who had come down from Chiang Mai on the
> way to enter a meditation
> retreat in Bangkok.  Ajahn Santi discouraged them
> from going to the
> meditation retreat and encouraged them instead to
> listen to the Dhamma, just
> as Tahn Ajahn Sujin and Nina Van Gorkom do.  

I'm not going to go into this one further. just to say, we need to be 
careful about judging others' motives...If you advise someone to go 
right instead of left, this is not what I'd call censorship...!


> I agree with Tahn Ajahn Sujin, Ajahn Santi, Nina Van
> Gorkom and others who
> say that we should study the Dhamma so we know more
> about the phenomena that
> arise. I am glad that I had read widely before I
> started meditating.
> However, I disagree with anyone who says that
> meditation is always a waste
> of time or a useless activity.  I understand that
> phenomena  arise and pass
> away naturally without any control and that to sit
> down thinking 'I am going
> to purify this mind of mine' is wrong view. 

So, you're a little unusual in that you study the Dhamma and read 
widely first. As a result there are likely to be many more conditions 
for understanding at some level to arise and develop whether you 
'meditate' or go to live in the forest or run around Bangkok. It's 
great that you appreciate the wrong view that is hard for most to 
recognise even intellectually.

> Nevertheless, I still believe
> it is wholesome to sit and watch the breathing to
> calm the body and mind.  I
> believe it is skilful to 'choicelessly' note all the
> phenomena arising at
> six sense doors, as in satipatthana. This is
> intermittent and there are
> moments of sati, moments of day dreaming and so
> forth.  Sati is not under
> any person's control and cannot be fixed or held on
> to.
> 
This is the crux of the matter. Watching the breathing is common, very 
common. I even do this in a breathing technique I learnt for asthma 
problems and in my yoga I do most days. The body and mind calm down 
and there are conditions for pleasant feelings (mostly!). There can be 
noting of sensations or other phenomena or there can be the 'sweeping' 
of sensations even. This is rather similar to the clearing of energy 
channels or chi that we experience here whilst doing Tai Chi or having 
acupuncture. 

The question is whether these experiences have anything to do with the 
understanding of realities, of seeing and visible object appearing 
now. If we agree that there can be realities appearing at these times 
(and why not?) then it means there is no reason why we shouldn't 
follow these activities if we enjoy them or find them useful for say 
our health as I do.  If however, we follow them just because we think 
there will be more awareness at these times, like using a mirror to 
look at realities which aren't clear enough the rest of the time, then 
I question the understanding  of the Buddha's teachings. I would also 
suggest that whenever we have the idea of another time, another place 
as being more suitable for the practice, that there's an idea of self 
luring behind this thinking.

This can be quite subtle and is not unique to meditators. if we have 
the idea that a monk's like is more suitable (for our practice) or the 
trip to Cambodia even, again there is clinging (usually with wrong 
view) and certainly no undestanding or realities here and now.

> I understand that many meditators get confused 
> between sati and samadhi.

> It wasn't until I did vipassana that  I became
> convinced that Buddhist
> vipassana is the way.  

So is there an idea of 'I do vipassana'?

Books, including the Tipitaka
> were great to read and
> even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the
> phenomena at the six sense
> doors and reflecting on that experience in the light
> of the Dhamma teaching
> that proved it to me.  I am not here referring to
> any supernatural events,
> bright lights, voices of deities etc. I am not here
> claiming to have
> achieved Nibbana or any other supreme state etc.

well, this is really good because it's a real hindrance if there is an 
idea of having ticked off those stages when there isn't even the 
understanding of the difference between nama and rupa.
> 
> Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and
> practice, but I find that
> calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of
> breathing is a lot like a
> quick spring clean through the mind and body with
> opposite effects to those
> of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or
> sex on TV etc. When we
> sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting
> is a blameless activity
> and that there is no person sitting or breathing
> etc.

Well as Robert has discussed, the citta determines what is blameless, 
not the activity. Who can tell by outer appearances?  most of what we 
take for calm is attachment for sure. Breathing is a concept and not 
an object of satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of 
vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any other concept. We can 
say many, many times that there is no person sitting and this is right 
thinking, but it is not right understanding of a reality.> 

> Sarah wrote:
> 
> >What is an experienced practitioner?
> 
> I understand that this term may be confusing. I mean some one who 
has been
> on retreats and has the confidence of those who have been on 
retreats as one
> who understands vipassana. This will be a debatable point for many.  
Each of
> us must make a choice about this.  Followers of this or that 
meditation
> technique or this or that guru will provide different advice. We 
each have
> to decide for our selves.   Of course we should be aware of the 
Kalama Sutta
> and other warnings of the Lord Buddha when choosing a teacher.

Yes, very debatable. I know 'vipassana meditation' students who 
started on retreats with me in the very early 70s and to this date 
have never picked up a dhamma book and have no interest at all in 
abhidhamma. They'd get high marks. Nina VG on the other hand would get 
zero marks and Khun Sujin, just a few perhaps! I remember once having 
a long walk and chat with mr Goenka and Munindra (in Bodh Gaya). 
Munindra was teaching us both some very basic abhidhamma. In those 
days, mr Goenka was already quite well-known as a meditation teacher 
but knew very little abhidhamma. When I asked them even then why it 
was necessary to set aside a special time, they both agreed it wasn't, 
but said for the inexperienced, they needed these props. Well, my 
question now is why not start in the right way, rather than starting 
in the wrong way and changing it later. In other words, the practice 
should start with right view of realities as anatta.
> 
> 
> Vipassana may not be learned on a course too. Some people will 
benefit while
> others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or studying 
Tahn Ajahn
> Sujin's books and talks.  Some will benefit and others will not. 
Even among
> those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little etc.  
I don't
> think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a course. 
That
> would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to 
something
> learned by reading a book or participating in an internet list.  
Vipassana
> is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activitie

o.k.

> Yes I agree with you here. However, for people who are still finding 
their
> way through the books and various recommendations to this or that 
teacher, I
> think a 'special course' provides a worldly way to begin study and
> vipassana.  Then as we begin to really understand, we can see that 
going on
> courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the Buddha 
Dhamma and
> that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is wrong 
view.

sorry to be picky, but again how do 'we' begin vipassana? Like you 
say, on the last day, they may be told  that compartmentalising 
practice is wrong, but still, this is what they've been taught that 
doing vipassana is all about..... These courses may have changed a lot 
since my very out-dated experiences, but what I found, like Robert's 
experience he mentioned, is that very limited questions are encouraged 
and there is very little (if any) open discussion on realities as 
detailed in the abhidhamma....one is just told to go and experience 
sensations and other realities with no knowledge of what these are. In 
your case, I would suggest that the benefit and any understanding 
developing during this time is more as a result of what you have read 
and considered than as a result of the meditation instructions.
> 
> I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not restricted 
to
> special courses or retreats.  But going on a retreat may help the 
arising of
> right view on this point.  I  haven't been on retreats taught in the 
west or
> outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not before 
then,
> everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at all 
times
> regardless.

Well if there is at least the right theoretical understanding of 
realities, in other words the development of vipassana, one could say 
that going to a movie or any other activity may help the right view. 
Of course, it is not the movie or the quiet meditation room, but the 
seeds planted from having heard and considered what is right that 
helps the right view. Today this may happen in the meditation room, 
tomorrow it may be in the cinema. if one clings to either venue as 
being the place where right view will arise it is wrong. This also 
applies to the Foundation Room too!>
 
 on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the guise 
of
> Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves and 
their
> students.

Yes!  it's good you care about this too.
> 
> After death is rebirth and and death and rebirth and death and so 
on.  Don't
> be so attached to this life. It will soon end and another will 
begin.  Are
> you afraid to go to sleep? You know you will wake because you have a
> lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death is not 
so
> obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is certain 
unless
> we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books?  
Wouldn't it
> be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives eh!

Well, i'm not sure where this was coming from, but 2 pts anyway. 
Firstly, I like to be reminded any number of times about the urgency 
of developing rt understanding at this moment. In this regard I find 
it helpful to be reminded by the Buddha that fire is on our heads and 
that death may come at any moment. This is not to condition attachment 
to life or fear but to remind us not to be neglectful of present 
conditioned realities, to develop understanding of these realities as 
anatta now. There is death at each moment too, this moment has gone 
and now another. I, personally, wouldn't be very onterested in 
recollecting past lives...each moment is just like this one and so at 
the end of life too....the more we understand this moment, the more we 
understand past lives and future lives. Robert gave a wonderful post 
recently on the subject of urgency (not in front of me but it was 
about the test of understanding whilst being murdered!).
> 
> Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in ignorance and 
suffer
> the consequences.

o.k.
> 
> This point is very very important. When we criticise meditators for 
sitting
> and wanting to change themselves etc. are we not being hypocritical 
for not
> criticing those who would want to change other people. Is there not 
a self
> wanting to change some one, here or there, in both instances?  
Motives are
> good but ignorance is present in both cases.  The presence of 
ignornace will
> create suffering and rebirth etc.
> 
> Everything must be done with great care and diligence.

Good points. We need to be honest about our motives. Just as when you 
encourage your children to share their sweets, there may be moments of  
wise (kusala) encouragement of wholesomeness and because they are your 
children, there may be moments of wishing they were more generous or 
were 'better' children with attachment. In the same way, when we 
question someone's 'practice' there will be many different cittas 
(moments of consciousness) arising, someone will be skilfull (we hope) 
and others not so. There are bound to be many moments of ignorance in 
between the kusala ones for SURE! It depends on conditions and this is 
why it's important to know more about different realities appearing 
now. Again when we speak or advise or sometimes criticise (this 
suggests dosa), there may or may not be any wrong view of self at that 
time.

Michael, we need to learn as much as we can about realities being 
experienced now. I hope you don't mind me saying this, but you seem to 
be very concerned about others' motives.....over-enthusiastic, 
criticising, censoring, acting with a tight-fist etc.....It MIGHT be 
more helpful to you if you just listen to the words without trying to 
second-guess the motives.  We really cannot know for others most the 
time, but even if they are not as skilful as we'd like, why let that 
deter us from hearing what may prove useful? 

> Sarah wrote that there are problems with searching for 'vipassana' 
on the
> internet because it brings up a range of different understandings. 
Why do
> you want to control which understandings appear?  Yes there are some 
right
> and wrong views. How do you know yours are right views?  We each 
must find
> the way.

This is a good example of what I just said. On later posts you have 
referred to how I'm trying to 'censor' the internet in this regard! I 
must say, it's hard  for me not to smile quite a lot! Yes, it's 
conditioning lobha! I can't even work out how to use a hotlink like 
Mike does so well and Jonothan has to bookmark all the useful Buddhist 
pages for me as I'm such an imbecile in this regard. The idea of being 
able to censor other sites is very funny but it might be fun to do!

O.K. trying to be more serious, again it's like advising your kids if 
they ask you whether they should go right or left. Just because you 
advise them to go right hardly means you are trying to control them or 
censor their behaviour. In the example above, you advised Sotujanna 
(if I'm not mistaken) that she might search vipassana on the internet. 
Now I've never done this but I  merely questioned the advice saying, 
in my opinion, I expected that there may be wrong views (i.e. not in 
accordance with the Buddha's teachings). For you, however, I'd say, go 
there, search it and report back. You've heard all the views anyway! 
This list is not about all giving exactly the same advice. 

Any right views expressed here or anywhere else do not belong to me or 
anyone else. Samma ditthi is samma ditthi. It understands realities 
and is anatta. It comes back to knowing the details of those realities 
again and I'm sure you're hearing plenty about them from khun Sujin.
> 
> I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have right 
view or
> at least have right view most of the time. Others might say that 
they have
> more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most teachers 
will cite
> the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the sacred 
texts etc.
> We all interpret things according to our accumulated conditioning. 
We find
> our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your right 
view is
> better than someone else's?

Michael, the only way to know what is right is to study the Tipitaka, 
listen, consider and test out what is right. Any understanding does 
not belong to any teacher or even to the Buddha. Yes, there is bound 
to be plenty of doubt and wondering in between. BUT there can be 
awareness and understanding of the thinking as another conditioned 
reality too! Also not mine, not a teacher's...
> 

> I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn Ajahn 
Sujin but
> haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and ignorant, 
I don't
> know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the group 
about
> find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It isn't 
that I
> disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the belief.

Pls remain sceptical and question, question, question. The Teachings 
are not to be accepted blindly and you'll find you hear something that 
makes sense at the Foundtion or here and then you'll go away and have 
plenty of doubts. Fine! Btw I don't claim to have found any way, as 
you put it. I claim to read, hear, consider and study the Buddha's 
Teachings which make a lot of sense to me, a lot lot more sense than 
the psychology I was originally trained in! Sometimes a little 
understanding develops, but this is just a beginning for a moment only 
and hardly constitutes having found the way, though I thank you for 
the compliment(?)!
> 
> Practicing vipassana meditation with the lurking idea of a self who 
can be
> aware is probably common with all beginners, no matter how long they 
have
> practiced. This goes for all areas of life and not just meditation. 
The
> lurking idea of self is present for most of us whatever we do. As 
ordinary
> people puttujanna (?spelling) we need to realise this point.

..and it's great you see this as the lurking problem! There can be 
different moments, however....moments with wrong view of self, many 
more moments of clinging to self (not necessarily with wrong view) and 
in between moments with a little understanding.
> 
> Sarah I hope that you and other Dhammastudygroup list members can be 
patient
> with me.

likewise!> 

> Sarah thank you for prompting me to consider these issues in more 
detail and
> try to put them into words. I am trying to find a way to explain 
this
> properly to Than Ajahn Sujin and the others in the Saturday English 
language
> discussion group.  It is very hard. I venture to say it is many 
times harder
> than writing a PhD but also far more rewarding.  It may be that at 
some
> point in this struggle I will realise that it is pointless or that 
it is
> over or something like that. Who knows?

Michael, don't underestimate A.Sujin. She's heard similar difficulties 
so many, many times and understands exactly where you are coming from 
and will continue to patiently explain about realities for as long as 
you like. You're EXTREMELY fortunate to have these opportunities at 
this time tho' you'll be sceptical about this, I know! No worries!

I'm not sure which struggle may prove pointless..? In any case this is 
more thinking about concepts. The thinking can be known as a reality 
now.

Pls keep telling us about yr impressions of the discussions at the 
Foundtion too....like a diary...it keeps us in touch with topics being 
discussed there for one thing and yr impressions will be similar to 
others I'm sure.

Certainly we're really looking f/w to meeting you, Sukin & Betty who 
we haven't met yet from this list. There may be some uncertainty about 
the Cambodia trip...(well isn't there always!)...We arrive on the Sat 
2nd Dec. Jonothan will certainly go to part of the session at Khunying  
N's. I may or may not (he speaks Thai, but I don't). In any case, we'd  
like to arrange a very informal get together at the Shangrila (where 
we'll be staying) on say Sat 2nd at 4.30p.m. or on Sunday 3rd at same 
time (assuming no Eng disc is arranged then w/ K.S.) or both! If you 
or anyone else (Sukin, Betty, Ivan & Elle, Amara, Shin..) is inclined 
to come to either, maybe give me an indication off list 
with yr ph nos if I don't have them in case 
there are last minute changes. Hopefully Nina & Lodevick may join us 
too and maybe K.Sujin, but I wouldn't want to press this as she'll be 
so busy.... (Anyone can leave a message for us at the hotel too under 
ABBOTT j.)

Time I got out for some fresh air and

 
2107 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 10:05am
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  ....the last line got cut out about fresh air and breakfast up the 
peak calling (maybe too late for the hike now!)

Michael, we'll all look f/w to yr responses...but take yr time & see 
you next week!

Sarah

 
2108 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 7:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say
that  the concept of breath cannot be the object of
insight or vipassana. Of course there can be
understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on breath
or any other concept, but the object must be a reality
such as softness/hardness or thinking.

I also apologise for many typos...I started from this
server and then found Michael's letter had been
'truncated', so I changed to the egroups 'master' list
but found at the end I couldn't save a draft to check
later after I came back from my hike, so it had to be
clicked a little early! As I said, I'm a very slow
internet learner!

Sarah


I said before

>Breathing is a concept and not 
an object of satipatthana, so there cannot be the
development of 
vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any other
concept. We can 
say many, many times that there is no person sitting
and this is right 
thinking, but it is not right understanding of a
reality.> 




 
2109 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 9:22am
Subject: Vancaka Pali

 
  > thina middha  ->   cheat(s) as
> 
> 
> #samadhi
> #papaviramanatha
> #gnana
> #paratthakamatha
> #alpecchatha
> 
> 
> eg-  I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others  I will 
let others
>  do it and get merit for themselves.


Dear Gayan, and all our Pali literates,

Last evening our experts convened to study Gayan's vancaka for the 
second time, (we have finished no. 4) and no one could figure out 
the following terms in Pali:

> #papaviramanatha
> #gnana
> #paratthakamatha
> #alpecchatha

Could you send us the correct spellings and approximate meanings so 
that we could compare it with the Thai Pali?  

You have opened quite a can here and with Khun Sujin's comments it 
has taken a new depth for me, as something very intricate that one 
needs to be very careful in distinguishing.

Looking forward to your reply and anumodana in advance,

Amara

 
2110 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael

 
  Michael

> After reading the e-mails exchanged recently and
> reflecting on the Dhamma
> discussions I have participated in at the
> Foundation, I have decided to
> suspend active participation in the list to research
> and write down my
> (mis)understanding of vipassana.

I for one would be very sorry not to have your
continued participation in the list.  As I said in a
recent post, we all have misunderstanding (wrong view)
about vipassana, so you are not alone in that.  It is
the aim of this list to help everyone, by mutual
support and encouragement, to have less of it.

I would like to suggest an alternative approach. 
Adopting the model of you own excellent website, use
this list as a sounding board for your
work-in-progress.  After all, to complete your magnum
opus (because that's what it would turn out to be),
you will need to answer such questions as what,
according to the tipitaka, is vipassana, is bhavana,
is meditation, is understanding, is practice, etc.  
These are the very questions which we all seek the
answers to, from sources within the tipitaka.

> Today's English language Dhamma discussion group at
> the Foundation was
> largely taken up with responding to my questions. 
> Jack kindly offered to
> teach me some Abhidhamma. I may take him up on that
> later.  After the
> session, Amara and I shook hands.

I am glad to hear that peace has been made!  I
understand why you felt that Amara's comments on your
WFB post were uncalled for.  However, knowing Amara as
I do I am sure she did not mean it the way you took
it.  It is just her style of writing.  Anyway,
initiation by fire in the form of an Amara post has
become something of a ritual on this list, and you
join some very distinguished company (Kom and Gayan
included) who have survived with flying colours!
[Think of it this way:  Amara=Deva;
Amara-fire=angel-fire]

> Sukin told Neil and I this afternoon that  it would
> be good for Foundation
> members to find a way to explain the problems of
> vipassana meditation to
> meditators who encounter the Foundation. So I
> proceed with the hope that
> further efforts to clarify these issues will benefit
> many others as well.

I am aware of this perception among those who first
come across the Foundation.  However, in my experience
discussing this aspect is not particularly fruitful,
as is shown by the recent less-than-edifying exchange
on this list.  This is not meant as a criticism, least
of all of you as a relative newcomer to the list, but
simply as an observation to be kept in mind for the
future.  If we stick to the nitty-gritty of what the
Buddha had to say about things, we will all benefit.

> I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will
> eventually answer those
> questions asked by Robert and Amara at a later date.
> Please stand by for a
> few days or a week.

Take one or 2 points that interest you at a time, and
don't feel obliged to respond to every point. 
Otherwise the sheer volume of mail becomes
unmanageable.  We would rather have you with us and
participating than off the list trying to keep up!

Looking forward to meeting you, and other listies,
later this week.

Jonothan





 
2111 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Nov 26, 2000 10:53pm
Subject: welcome

 
  Welcome to Kim G. for signing our guest book and with the hope that you will
logon on join our discussions. It was a great pleasure to meet you at my
son's temple last week and I hope we will stay in touch via the dhammastudy
discussions.

With metta,
Betty


__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
2112 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:05am
Subject: Schedules

 
  Dear all,

These are the latest updates on the next few weeks' schedules:

Friday Dec. 1: arrival of our friends from abroad

Sat.   Dec. 2: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Khunying Noparatana's

Sun.   Dec. 3: 9.00-12.00      "       " DSSFB (or the Shang?) 
Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali 
committee (vancaka).

Mon.-Sat. morning- Dec. 4 - 9: Cambodia

Sat.   Dec. 9: 13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (flexible)

Sun.   Dec. 10: 9.00-12.00      "       " DSSFB (or the Shang?) 
Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali 
committee (vancaka).

Mon.   Dec. 11: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Ivan and Elle's

Tues.  Dec. 12: 9.00-12.00 discussions at DSSFB (flexible)
               13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (flexible)

Wed.-Fri. morning- Dec. 13 - 15: Kanchanaburi

Program ends ****

Sarah and Jonothan, please contact me or Ivan and Ell if you would 
like to change or arrange anything on the flexible dates, 

Everyone, please keep checking our pages or with Ell and Ivan for 
changes and updates, and tell your friends,

Thanks for your attention and anumodana,

Amara

 
2113 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:49am
Subject: Re: vipassana as (mis)understood by Michael

 
  > > Today's English language Dhamma discussion group at
> > the Foundation was
> > largely taken up with responding to my questions. 
> > Jack kindly offered to
> > teach me some Abhidhamma. I may take him up on that
> > later.  After the
> > session, Amara and I shook hands.
> 
> I am glad to hear that peace has been made!  I
> understand why you felt that Amara's comments on your
> WFB post were uncalled for.  However, knowing Amara as
> I do I am sure she did not mean it the way you took
> it.  It is just her style of writing.  Anyway,
> initiation by fire in the form of an Amara post has
> become something of a ritual on this list, and you
> join some very distinguished company (Kom and Gayan
> included) who have survived with flying colours!
> [Think of it this way:  Amara=Deva;
> Amara-fire=angel-fire]


Dear Jonothan, 

Thanks to our deep, wide and calm river our peace is sanctified!  By 
the way please look for my private note!

Amara

 
2114 From:  
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 2:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Jonathan,

Actually I dont know how to translate them, thats why I put these here,

mannana is a key word to understand samma ditthi,
and a correct english translation will really help many people.

in an another pali gatha , buddha says

the beings ( satta) yena yena hi mannati, tato tam hoti annata

'the ignorant beings do mannana with various things, so the annata ( otherness)
arises.'

( thisness and otherness is the cause of samsara vata )


I will give the references if I can find them quickly.



rgds.




Jonothan Abbott  on 11/24/2000 08:47:36 PM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

Gayan

> as in Pali what a puthujjana does is ' mannati'
> where as a sekha would do ' ma manni'
> and an arahant would do 'na mannati'.

Could you explain a little, or give a translation of
the Pali terms, please.

thanks

Jonothan

 
2115 From:  
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 3:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vancaka Pali

 
  Dear amara,


papaviramanata-

papa + viramana  ( disliking the evil deeds ? ) [ for the correct meaning , I
will have to go home and see the text, I will mail the exact thing tomorrow]

gnana ( nana )-

Knowledge

parattakamata -

para + atta + kama ( unselfishness, liking to do welfare for others )

alpeccata-

alpa + icca      ( requiring just a little , living on a small amout of
resources)


rgds.






"amara chay"  on 11/27/2000 07:22:27 AM


Subject:  [DhammaStudyGroup] Vancaka Pali





> thina middha  ->   cheat(s) as
>
>
> #samadhi
> #papaviramanatha
> #gnana
> #paratthakamatha
> #alpecchatha
>
>
> eg-  I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others  I will
let others
>  do it and get merit for themselves.


Dear Gayan, and all our Pali literates,

Last evening our experts convened to study Gayan's vancaka for the
second time, (we have finished no. 4) and no one could figure out
the following terms in Pali:

> #papaviramanatha
> #gnana
> #paratthakamatha
> #alpecchatha

Could you send us the correct spellings and approximate meanings so
that we could compare it with the Thai Pali?

You have opened quite a can here and with Khun Sujin's comments it
has taken a new depth for me, as something very intricate that one
needs to be very careful in distinguishing.

Looking forward to your reply and anumodana in advance,

Amara

 
2116 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Schedules

 
  Dear everyone,

Some more precisions concerning the schedule:

> These are the latest updates on the next few weeks' schedules:
> 
> Friday Dec. 1: arrival of our friends from abroad
> 
> Sat.   Dec. 2: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Khunying Noparatana's 
(Thai)
> 
> Sun.   Dec. 3: 9.00-12.00      "       " DSSFB (English)
> Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali 
> committee (vancaka).
> 
> Mon.-Sat. morning- Dec. 4 - 9: Cambodia
> 
> Sat.   Dec. 9: 13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (English)
> 
> Sun.   Dec. 10: 9.00-12.00      "       " DSSFB (English) 
> Afternoon sessions in Thai, late afternoon (16.00-18.00) Pali 
> committee (vancaka). (Thai)
> 
> Mon.   Dec. 11: 9.00-15.00 discussions at Ivan and Elle's (English)
> 
> Tues.  Dec. 12: 9.00-12.00 discussions at DSSFB (English)
>                13.30-17.00 discussions at DSSFB (English)
> 
> Wed.-Fri. morning- Dec. 13 - 15: Kanchanaburi


Amara

 
2117 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2000 6:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vancaka Pali

 
  Dear Amara,
Thank you for letting us know about the continuing interest in
The Vancaka. I am especially pleased that Khun Sujin is now
commenting on them; and that you are finding them beneficial. I
see several more meetings planned according to the schedule at
the DSSF. I sent her Jim's except from the atthakatha along with
a few of gayans translations and am glad she is going into it in
more depth. It is one of those topics that is so daily life - we
are always mistaking subtle akusala for kusala. Sometimes we
correct someone who has a wrong view but we do with a citta
rooted in dosa (aversion), not compassion, or we feel so
satisfied in proving OURSELF to be right. Or, as Michael
explained, we write something useful and then feel conceit.
These akusala are bound to arise but by learning about the way
akusala(unwholesomeness) masquerades as kusala we can start to
see through them. We are not so fooled - and that is an aspect
of wisdom. After a certain point these vangaka become so refined
that only the person who actually has them can know if they are
present- but he will only know if sufficient understanding
arises.
Robert
> 
> Dear Gayan, and all our Pali literates,
> 
> Last evening our experts convened to study Gayan's vancaka for
> the 
> second time> You have opened quite a can here and with Khun
Sujin's
> comments it 
> has taken a new depth for me, as something very intricate that
> one 
> needs to be very careful in distinguishing.
> 
> Looking forward to your reply and anumodana in advance,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
2118 From:  
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 0:10am
Subject: Pertinent Post

 
  Dear Friends,

This is borrowed from Pariyatti Book Service's 'Daily Words of the 
Buddha'.  Thought it struck a particularly resonant note for this 
group:

Those who mistake the unessential to be essential 
and the essential to be unessential, 
dwelling in wrong thoughts, 
never arrive at the essential.

Dhammapada 11

Concepts w/sakkaya-ditthi vs. paramattha dhamma?  The story of MY 
life...

 
2119 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 0:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

Thanks for the schedule update.  Do you have any
current information on scheduling of broadcasts in
English of Ajahn Sujin's talks on internet radio?

My apologies if you've posted this all before.

Thanks in advance...

mn


 
2120 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 1:30am
Subject: Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9

 
  >  Do you have any
> current information on scheduling of broadcasts in
> English of Ajahn Sujin's talks on internet radio?


Dear Mike,

We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30 BKK time since 
that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get it, would make 
one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both in English, 
starting this Dec. 1st, 2000.  We are way behind editing the tapes, 
though, so it migh be a while before the English really air.  Sorry 
for the delay, it's been a bit hectic lately!

I would like to also announce the schedule of the first half of 
December in the newsletter section (Newsletter 9) at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> just finished uploading.  Have a look at 
the lovely background!

Enjoy,

Amara

 
2121 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 2:56am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  On Ma~n~nati,

Hello. I may be able to contribute something to the discussion of Ma~n~nati.
Please allow me, as a first posting, to jump right in.

Start with the Pali/English Dictionary:

[Related to Greek: “Mood”, “Anger” “To Think of” “Wish to”; Latin: memini,
to think of, mens>mind, meneo; Gothic: Munan, to think, muns, opinion; Old
Islandic: man; Old High German: minna, love; Anglo Saxon: myne, intention]

Primary: To think, to be of opinion, to imagine, to deem.
The short form: ma~n~ne is used like an adverb: as affirmative particle and
is inserted without influencing the grammatical or syntactical construction
of the sentence; meaning: “methinks”.

Secondary: To imagine, to be proud, to be conceited, to boast.

Man > mind > >mentation > In the Pali, I believe “thinking” is what is
intended when this word is used for mental activity.

Jonothan’s examples look like they are from the Mulapariyaya:

what a puthujjana does is ' mannati'   ma~n~nati
where as a sekha would do ' ma manni'  maa ma~n~ni
and an arahant would do 'na mannati'.  na ma~n~nati

The Ordinary Common Man Thinks About Pa.thavi
The Seeker says [to himself] “think not” of Pa.thavi
The Arahant doesn’t [Arahants don’t] think about Pa.thavi

In regard to Gayan’s statement that: ma~n~nana is a key word to understand
sammaa ditthi. How we think evolves out of our View. [and, as in the
example, but here from the ones: first comes mind, and then follow all good
and bad conditions whatsoever.]“Thinking about” is the state of one who has
low views, for one who has high view, there is no thinking about (or, at
least, “thinking about” can be easily identified as a straying from high
view) because the view has been set. The middle practice is Thinking About
High View, but that should be seen as a temporary measure to provide for a
stepping stone between thinking about the world from the usual points of
view and not thinking about the world. At such a time as it is clearly
 “seen” as it really is, thinking about it is no longer needed.

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm
ICQ#94992160

 
2122 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 4:50am
Subject: PS

 
  Lotta Mikes here, (being dragged around by our name? Who is God?) You can
call me MO.


Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm
ICQ#94992160

 
2123 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 6:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] PS

 
  Hey, MO,

Jesus!  You know Hebrew, too?!  I started out here as
mn, but was encouraged to use 'Mike'. 

That last post was wonderful, look forward to more.  

Is philology your (professional) field, by the way?

Best Regards,

Mike

--- Michael Olds  wrote:
> Lotta Mikes here, (being dragged around by our name?
> Who is God?) You can
> call me MO.



 
2124 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 6:57am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] PS

 
  mnike,

>You know Hebrew, too?

No, just lived in New York for a long time.

Is philology your (professional) field?

Also no, I have no profession, although I have been called Professor
Professor.


Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm
ICQ#94992160

 
2125 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 7:48am
Subject: another welcome

 
  Dear Mo,

A big welcome here...yes we like new 'faces' or rather
new styles and expertise....I'm going to take yr 1st
post out to breakfast to 'digest' as I'm running late
now!

Many thanks and we look f/w to hearing plenty from you
and it's great if you can help us fill in some of
those  interesting and difficult terminologies and
etymologies. We always encourage new members to say a
little about themselves with regard to their interest
in dhamma, so if you feel inclined to tell us more,
pls do. (Not compulsory!)

Thanks & Mo sounds fine it that's o.k. with you.
Professor Professor is a little too long to type out
ev.time! Mike is the original Mike on list so he gets
to keep that (actually mnike is an interesting
deviation.. !) and then we have Michael J who keps the
longer name to match his longer posts!

now I'm really running late!
welcome, anyway
Sarah


--- Michael Olds  wrote: >
mnike,
> 
> >You know Hebrew, too?
> 
> No, just lived in New York for a long time.
> 
> Is philology your (professional) field?
> 
> Also no, I have no profession, although I have been
> called Professor
> Professor.
> 
> 
> Best Wishes!
> Michael Olds    California
> > http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm
> ICQ#94992160
> 
> 



 
2126 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:09am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] another welcome

 
  Sarah,

Thank you for the welcome. I hope I can contribute a little, learn
something, and get away before I make too much trouble!

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 3:48 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] another welcome


Dear Mo,

A big welcome here...yes we like new 'faces' or rather
new styles and expertise....I'm going to take yr 1st
post out to breakfast to 'digest' as I'm running late
now!

Many thanks and we look f/w to hearing plenty from you
and it's great if you can help us fill in some of
those  interesting and difficult terminologies and
etymologies. We always encourage new members to say a
little about themselves with regard to their interest
in dhamma, so if you feel inclined to tell us more,
pls do. (Not compulsory!)

Thanks & Mo sounds fine it that's o.k. with you.
Professor Professor is a little too long to type out
ev.time! Mike is the original Mike on list so he gets
to keep that (actually mnike is an interesting
deviation.. !) and then we have Michael J who keps the
longer name to match his longer posts!

now I'm really running late!
welcome, anyway
Sarah


--- Michael Olds  wrote: >
mnike,
>
> >You know Hebrew, too?
>
> No, just lived in New York for a long time.
>
> Is philology your (professional) field?
>
> Also no, I have no profession, although I have been
> called Professor
> Professor.
>
>
> Best Wishes!
> Michael Olds    California
> > http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm
> ICQ#94992160
>
>



 
2127 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:39am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > Hello. I may be able to contribute something to the discussion of 
Ma~n~nati.
> Please allow me, as a first posting, to jump right in.


Dear Mo,

Wow!! and welcome to a spectacular debutant!  Looking forward to more 
of your scrumptious posts,

Amara

 
2128 From:  
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 0:12pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear  MO,

:o)

Thanks for the compassionate explanation,
Just feel free to make trouble here...( oops..can I say that , Abbot Sir Madam?
)

trouble is what we all need, after all this is not the brahma life which will be
trouble free for aeons but still glued to the samsara....

pls trigger for more 'trouble' and hopefully more 'samvega' will arise


:oD

rgds.

 
2129 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Mike O,
You might remember me from earlier this year when we
corresponded on the Pali Old-line list, moderated by yourself.
Welcome to the discussion!
Dear gayan,
I liked your little reminder about Samsara. I was just thinking
today how amazing it is that these bodies keep going for as long
as they do. Each moment is conditioned in manifold ways, and
those conditions are likewise conditioned.  Now we are in the
human realm but we don't know when, maybe a few short processes
from now, cuti-citta(death consciousness ) will arise and then
patisandhi will ocur in a new life, as animal or man or deva or
somewhere else. 
Robert
---  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear  MO,
> 
> :o)
> 
> Thanks for the compassionate explanation,
> Just feel free to make trouble here...( oops..can I say that ,
> Abbot Sir Madam?
> )
> 
> trouble is what we all need, after all this is not the brahma
> life which will be
> trouble free for aeons but still glued to the samsara....
> 
> pls trigger for more 'trouble' and hopefully more 'samvega'
> will arise
> 
> 
> :oD
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 
> 



 
 
2130 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 2:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  Dear Jim,

As we previously discussed, not only the current citta conditions the
next citta to arise (anantara), it must also condition the next citta
to arise in order (samanantara).   I believe it is possible to make a
chart that lists the cittas that can arise after a particular citta
based on the information in the tipitikas.  For examples,

cuti citta -> patisanti citta
patisanti citta -> bhavanga citta
bhavanga citta -> bhavanga citta/panca-dvara citta/mano-dvara citta/???

There are some more restricted ordering near cuti citta, patisanti
citta, jhana citta, lokuttara citta, and possibly others.  However,
trying to make this into a truly deterministic (like a state machine)
chart is most likely to be beyond a layperson (impossible??? except for
samasam-buddha), as it involves knowing the exact conditioning dhammas,
their degrees, timings, etc. that determine the next citta.

In summary, what I understand are the followings:
1) Except for an Arahat's citta, a citta must condition the next citta
to arise (even after some cessation in the case of asanna-satta-brahma
or an anagami or an arahat in certain meditation states)
2) It must condition the next citta in order.  There may be a choice of
just one or more than one possible following cittas.  I believe it is
possible to list the choices for all possible following cittas.
3) Given more than one possible citta, you will need to know all
possible conditioning cittas, their strengths and degrees, and their
timings, to know which one would be the next one.    

Now, given the general discussion, let me take a shot at your specific
questions.

Q) the arising of a thought moment which  conditions the next thought
moment
A) I assume a thought moment here means a whole series (the entire vara
of vithi cittas) experiecing pannatti as the aramana: in fact, a bunch
of series in succession.  If we assume the followings:
mano-dvara-vithi -> bhavanga (at least 2?) -> mano-dvara-vithi ->
bhavanga (at least 2?) -> ...
mano-dvara-vithi comprises of:
i) mano-dvara-vithi citta (1)
ii) javana citta (kusala/akusala/kiriya for an arahat) (7)
iii) (there is no thatalampana as the entire vithi experiences
pannatti)
Then it is easy to see how the general explanations 1) and 2) can be
applied.

Q)  So it is the order that is crucial here?  Is that right.  That a 
 particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next citta, 
 but a particular citta in a chain of causation?  Is this 
 deterministic
A) I hope the general explanation answers this set of questions.

Q) is it possible, through meditation, to break such a sequence?
A) The jhana citta doesn't really break such a sequence.  It just
"chooses" one of the next possible cittas to arise, one that is
different from the non-jhana citta.  It may also causes the delay of
the next citta to arise for a period of time, but certainly the next
citta must arise after jhana citta after the cessation.

kom

--- Jim Wilson  wrote:
> ---  Kom Tukovinit  > 
> I wonder if you could give an example of how the two categories would
> 
> be used in an explanation of the arising of a thought moment which 
> conditions the next thought moment?
>  
> So it is the order that is crucial here?  Is that right.  That a 
> particular citta gives rise to, conditions, not just any next citta, 
> but a particular citta in a chain of causation?  Is this 
> deterministic, or is it possible, through meditation, to break such a
> sequence?



 
2131 From: wewynal   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 2:37pm
Subject: Cause of suffering

 
  How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question "What is the cause of suffering?"

Please help.

Thank you.
~ Wynn


 
 
2133 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Gayan
 
> Actually I dont know how to translate them, thats
> why I put these here

Could have fooled me.  You seem to have such a good
grasp of the texts.  I thought I was the only one who
didn't understand it!
 
> mannana is a key word to understand samma ditthi,
> and a correct english translation will really help
> many people

Yes, I'm beginning to get a sense of its importance. 
But I am also beginning to doubt that a suitable terms
exists in English.  Bhikkhu Bodhi says as much in his
introduction.

Perhaps you and Amara could tell us something about
the terms that are used in Singhala and Thai to
translate this term?

> in an another pali gatha , buddha says
> 
> the beings ( satta) yena yena hi mannati, tato tam
> hoti annata
> 
> 'the ignorant beings do mannana with various things,
> so the annata ( otherness)
> arises.'
> 
> ( thisness and otherness is the cause of samsara
> vata )
> 
> 
> I will give the references if I can find them
> quickly.

Thanks.  I look forward to that.

Jonothan


 
2134 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:56pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Michael O

Welcome to the list, and many thanks for the very
thoughtful and extensive explanation.
 
> Jonothan’s examples look like they are from the
> Mulapariyaya:

Yes, I think this is so (actually they were Gayan's
examples).  Haveing been spurred to look it up, here
is part of what BB says about the term in the
introduction to his translation:

"The word "mannana" signifies a different, more
developed type of thinking [than simple discursive
thinking], one that is unwholesome and always involves
a wrong grasp of the object. ... I have [translated]
it as "conceiving", though this English word hardly
does justice to the full meaning of the original." 

> what a puthujjana does is ' mannati'   ma~n~nati
> where as a sekha would do ' ma manni'  maa ma~n~ni
> and an arahant would do 'na mannati'.  na ma~n~nati
> 
> The Ordinary Common Man Thinks About Pa.thavi
> The Seeker says [to himself] “think not” of Pa.thavi
> The Arahant doesn’t [Arahants don’t] think about
> Pa.thavi

The commentary explains that the worldling, since he
has not abandoned any of the "conceivings" [of which
there are 4], is described as one who conceives.
The arahat, who has abandoned them all, is described
as one who does not conceive.
The learner has abandoned the conceiving of view and
has diminished the others;  he is neither one who
conceives, like the worldling, nor one who does not
conceive, like the arahat.
 
> In regard to Gayan’s statement that: ma~n~nana is a
> key word to understand
> sammaa ditthi. How we think evolves out of our View.
> [and, as in the
> example, but here from the ones: first comes mind,
> and then follow all good
> and bad conditions whatsoever.]“Thinking about” is
> the state of one who has
> low views, for one who has high view, there is no
> thinking about (or, at
> least, “thinking about” can be easily identified as
> a straying from high
> view) because the view has been set. The middle
> practice is Thinking About
> High View, but that should be seen as a temporary
> measure to provide for a
> stepping stone between thinking about the world from
> the usual points of
> view and not thinking about the world. At such a
> time as it is clearly
>  “seen” as it really is, thinking about it is no
> longer needed.

Michael, we are very fortunate to have your input to
the list.  I look forward to your participation in the
discussions.

Jonothan


 
2135 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] PS

 
  MO

> Lotta Mikes here, (being dragged around by our name?
> Who is God?) You can
> call me MO.

OK, got it!

Jonothan


 
2136 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:00pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Gayan

> Thanks for the compassionate explanation,
> Just feel free to make trouble here...( oops..can I
> say that , Abbot Sir Madam?)

Watch your step, lad

Abbott Sir



 
2137 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering

 
  Wynn

 > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question
> "What is the cause of suffering?"

I think you have set yourself a very difficult task.
Allow yourself plenty of time!

Surely the person would need to understand what
'suffering' is, before you can talk about its cause. 
This seems to me the more difficult of the 2 to
grasp/convey.  Does the person have any idea about
this?

Jonothan



 
2138 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Jonothan,

--- Jonothan & Sarah Abbott 
wrote:

> Breathing is a concept and not an object of 
> satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of 
> vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any 
> other concept.

Now that you've said this, it seems quite obvious.  
Still, this single sentence is (for myself) the
clearest and most succinct explanation of the
underlying differences we've been discussing to date.

This is meant as a personal observation only, as it
perfectly highlights the biggest (perhaps) wrong
turning that I took when attempting institutionalized
vipassana bhavana.  Whether or not this is true for
anyone else is clearly a matter for individual
investigation.

This, to me, is the great advantage of this group and
its specific focus on abhidhamma--had I not had the
good luck(?!) to encounter you all, I don't think I'd
have ever made the distinction between paramattha
dhamma and concept.  Thanks again!

Mike   


 
2139 From:  
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:39pm
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear SARAH (sorry!),

---  Sarah Procter Abbott 
 wrote:

> I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say
> that  the concept of breath cannot be the object of
> insight or vipassana. Of course there can be
> understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on breath
> or any other concept, but the object must be a reality
> such as softness/hardness or thinking.

Well!  Having previously applauded the sentence you've corrected 
here, I'm doubly curious.  Is it true that understanding or insight 
may arise while the mind is 'darting among unrealities'?  Seems I 
need to look at this a little more closely.

I guess that, given that only one citta can arise at a time, with 
only one object, the problem is with the expression.  Not really 
a 'mind darting'...still, this does bring to mind the simile of 
trying to get milk by twisting a cow's horn.

Please excuse my rambling.  Maybe I'm just mixed up in semantics.  
Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance...Mike

 
2140 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:48pm
Subject: Re: Cause of suffering

 
  > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question "What is the 
cause of suffering?"


Dear Wynn,

I would recommend that those interested read an article in the 
intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> called 'Kamma', 
where the cause of dukkha, not only suffering but impermanence, is 
quite well explained.  Other shorter Q&As such as 2 and 3(2nd part) 
might also be of some use.  Shorter still are the FAQs where most 
non-Buddhists will see many of their most frequent questions 
discussed, which might provide some perspectives to their questions.

Hope you find something useful,

Amara

 
2141 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2000 11:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Breath was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Mike,
 There is a little more to it than Sarah indicated. (This wasn't
her main point so she naturally didn't go into detail- and note
that she made a slight correction in a later post)
Almost always breath is concept when we are aware of it.
Especially when it is used as an object for samattha and a
nimitta arises this is obviously concept. And even during
vipassana when there is awareness of the different namas and
rupas that arise almost simultaneoulsy with breath - the breath
itself is not an object for satipatthana. However breath is
actually composed of rupas that are conditioned ONLY by citta
(citta-samutthana-rupa). Only special type of wisdom can
actually distinguish between the rupas that are citta-samutthana
-rupa and say those that are utu -samutthana-rupa. Thus we might
think we are experiencing the rupas that are conditioned by
citta but actaully be observing other types - it is exceedingly
hard to know. And most of the time whatever rupa we experience
is seen only with vinnana(consciousness) and sanna (perception)
but not with panna (wisdom). Breath is a real hard one. (Isn't
it all?)
Robert

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Jonothan,
> 
> --- Jonothan & Sarah Abbott 
> wrote:
> 
> > Breathing is a concept and not an object of 
> > satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of 
> > vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any 
> > other concept.
> 
> Now that you've said this, it seems quite obvious.  
> Still, this single sentence is (for myself) the
> clearest and most succinct explanation of the
> underlying differences we've been discussing to date.
> 
> This is meant as a personal observation only, as it
> perfectly highlights the biggest (perhaps) wrong
> turning that I took when attempting institutionalized
> vipassana bhavana.  Whether or not this is true for
> anyone else is clearly a matter for individual
> investigation.
> 
> This, to me, is the great advantage of this group and
> its specific focus on abhidhamma--had I not had the
> good luck(?!) to encounter you all, I don't think I'd
> have ever made the distinction between paramattha
> dhamma and concept.  Thanks again!
> 
> Mike   
> 
> 



 
2142 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 0:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dera Mike,
Since sarah is usually tardy in replying and I will add a little
more. See my comments below.
--- ups.com, Sarah Procter Abbott 
>  wrote:
> 
> > I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say
> > that  the concept of breath cannot be the object of
> > insight or vipassana. Of course there can be
> > understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on breath
> > or any other concept, but the object must be a reality
> > such as softness/hardness or thinking.
> 
> Well!  Having previously applauded the sentence you've
> corrected 
> here, I'm doubly curious.  Is it true that understanding or
> insight 
> may arise while the mind is 'darting among unrealities'? 
> Seems I 
> need to look at this a little more closely.
> 
> I guess that, given that only one citta can arise at a time,
> with 
> only one object, the problem is with the expression.  Not
> really 
> a 'mind darting'...

The Visuddhimagga says that this object it is not for ordinary
people but only for Mahapurisa - great ones such as Rahula and
the other 80 great disciples of the Buddha. It says that
mindfulness of breathing appears easy but is the probably the
hardest of  the 38 objects of samattha. This doesn't mean that
ordinary people can't develop it but it needs a lot of care and
background and prior development in past lives. When it is
developed as an object of samattha there will come a time when a
nimitta appears and that is taken as the object - this is a
concept as Sarah notes. '
It is also included in the satipatthana sutta and we may wonder
why since it is an object for samattha. For one thing for those
who are released in both ways (no longer viable)after leaving
jhana the jhana cittas themselves can be object for
staipatthana. Even for those whose vehicle is pure vipassana
while focusing on the breath many different realities appear
(because the mind is such that it cannot continually focus on
one object except during jhana) So at times vedana, feeling, may
be predomint (vedanupassana) and thus taken as an object for
sati, at other times rupa, such as hardness or heat
(kayanupassana). At other times drowsiness (dhammanupassana
sati) and this is an object. These are just a few possibilities.

This is the way vipassana develops no matter whether in daily
life or whether one lives under a tree. No matter whether breath
is the object or not. Avijja is always darting among concepts
but in between panna is arising and seeing paramattha dhammas as
they are, little by little. Try and force it though and it is
sure to be done with an idea of self. It is panna (wisdom) that
arises and knows- that is its function. The essential conditions
for this (re;your post yesterday) is profound and repeated
reflection about dhammas which conditions yoniso manasikara(wise
attention) to the various objects that are arising. Being in a
quiet place can be a supporting condition for this to occur, but
it is not at all an essential condition. 
Robert


 
2143 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 0:52am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering

 
  Jonothan, Robert, Wynn,

Jonothan, thanks for the welcome, mostly I have come to learn. A few folks
here know my style and know that I have no familiarity at all with the
Abhidhamma. So I hope I will listen well.

Robert, howdy, glad to run into you again.

Wynn,

I go along with Jonothan here: start with DUKKHA. I have a fair amount of
experience trying to teach people about DUKKHA. I have found that the word
you use for DUKKHA makes a lot of difference. Most all men in America, for
example, will decline to admit that they "suffer." Tell them about "Angst"
or "Anxiousness" and that's the last they will listen to you. They all
acknowledge that they experience Pain.

Almost all people will admit that they are vulnerable to experiencing Pain.
The justification for using this word is easy: in the Digha,
MahaSatipatthana sutta, section on Dhamma at the end, under The Four Truths,
for the Definition of DUKKHA you get one contrasted pair which is DUKKHA and
MISERY; Physical Pain and Mental Pain. So at one point DUKKHA is defined as
Pain. (To be used exactly as in English, defining Physical or mental pain by
it's context). This is also where to look for a broad detailed definition of
Dukkha and of the Origin of Dukkha.

In terms of getting across the idea that it is Hunger/Thirst that is the
cause of DUKKHA, look to the example where the Buddha was trying to teach
the concept to someone he had a pretty good idea would not grasp the idea if
put in philosophical terms. He asked him if there were not some individual
in his home town who, if they met with death or serious injury, or
incarceration would cause him to feel upset. Of course he said that there
was such a person. Then the Buddha asked if there were people in the man's
home town about whom he would care nothing if they met with death, injury,
or incarceration. And again there were such individuals. Then he asked the
man to describe what it was that was the reason that in one case he would
feel bad and in the other not.
Of course the answer was that in the one case he cared and in the other he
did not.

Finally, one other idea: let the questions come to you. It is a very strong
learning experience to teach another Dhamma, but this can be dangerous also.
If the other individual senses that it is not his interests you have in mind
when teaching, he will back off, understanding that his teacher is not
practicing the Objective Detachment he is teaching. The best measure of the
other person's interests is the exact question they  have asked.

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
http://home.pacbell.net/mikeolds/index.htm
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering


Wynn

 > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question
> "What is the cause of suffering?"

I think you have set yourself a very difficult task.
Allow yourself plenty of time!

Surely the person would need to understand what
'suffering' is, before you can talk about its cause.
This seems to me the more difficult of the 2 to
grasp/convey.  Does the person have any idea about
this?

Jonothan



 
2144 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 2:18am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering

 
  Good one, Mo,

--- Michael Olds  wrote:

I've sometimes also found it useful to point out (to
myself, also) that in any unhappiness, desire can
always be found--even if only the desire for something
to be other than it is.  This doesn't take much more
than a little cursory introspection.  If the listener
is willing and open-minded, I think this is a nice
conceptual introduction to the second noble truth.

mnike


 
2145 From: wewynal   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 2:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering

 
  I think he already understood "suffering" in the Buddhist sense. I explained
that to him already.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonothan Abbott 
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering


> Wynn
>
>  > How do I explain to a non-Buddhist on the question
> > "What is the cause of suffering?"
>
> I think you have set yourself a very difficult task.
> Allow yourself plenty of time!
>
> Surely the person would need to understand what
> 'suffering' is, before you can talk about its cause.
> This seems to me the more difficult of the 2 to
> grasp/convey.  Does the person have any idea about
> this?
>
> Jonothan
>
>

 
 
2146 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 2:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear Sarah,

In a message dated: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:01 AM EST you wrote:

>You also raise the subject of breath and anapannasati.
>Others have mentioned their meditations on breath too.
>This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to
>hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect.
>
>You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which case
>pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I know
>you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply and
>respect that you may not want to discuss your own
>'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the
>translation work too!

I don't mind discussing some aspects of the practice of anapanassati such as
its purpose and goal. From reading recent posts on this list it appears
that some members, including you and Amara, do not practise meditation
or are not interested in doing so. I have no problem with this and can
accept that there can be other ways of looking at and practising dhamma that
differ from my own. I believe that ultimately everyone has to find the way
best suited for him or her. This is probably the first Theravada group
(DSSF) that I have encountered that does not encourage people to meditate.
However, the main reason I'm on this list is the shared interest in the
Abhidhamma teachings and the development of understanding.

I should give a little bit of my meditation background to help you
understand why I'm interested in this practice. I have been meditating
regularly since 1973 and have done many meditation retreats alone or with a
group. The meditation centres that I have stayed at are Samye Ling,
Scotland, 1973; Karme Choling, Vermont, 1974, 1978, 1982; Insight Meditation
Society, Barre, MA 1976, 1978; & The Dharma Centre of Canada, Ontario,
many times from 1979 to 1992. I stopped attending group retreats about nine
years ago when I felt that they were no longer helping me and that I would
be better off just to carry on by myself. I think my approach to meditation
falls on the side of samatha instead of the more popular vipassana. My main
purpose in meditating is to develop concentration to a higher degree in the
direction of the jhanic attainments. I understand that, according to the
Visuddhimagga, XIV.7, concentration is the proximate cause of understanding.
This became clear to me in 1985 when I had a direct insight experience that
I knew could not have taken place without the associated calmness of a
concentrated mind I was also experiencing. So for me I consider a higher
degree of concentration to be an excellent support for developing
understanding.

Towards the end of the long list of 56 arupino dhammas of the first kusala
citta in the Dhammasangani there are three pairs of terms: sati &
sampajanna, samatha & vipassana, paggaha & avikkhepa. Of the three pairs, I
consider my practice to be based on the middle pair: samatha & vipassana
(meditation & dhamma study). Others may prefer to base their practice on the
first pair (with mindfulness) instead.

Thanks for your other comments in the same message. I have sent this
response several times since Sunday but none of them got through, so this is
a 5th try with some editorial changes to the original response. I continue
to have email problems but the messages from egroups are getting to me
although yahoo has been sending me 3 to 6 copies of the same message.

May you and the others have a safe and pleasant journey to Bangkok and
Cambodia.

Jim A.

 
2147 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering

 
  Dear Wyn,
What is suffering in the Buddhist sense?
Robert
--- wewynal  wrote: > I think he already
understood "suffering" in the Buddhist
> sense. I explained
> that to him already.



 
2148 From: Satisotujana   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:15am
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2149?expand=1

Introducing the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061166114009152031050057046140006253136248038136183193071193172194143142 listerv! 

This list is for anyone interested in Theravada Buddhism, and 
specifically with the practice of mindfulness (sati) and the four 
foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana).  We will discuss the 
Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas as well as all issues relating to 
both meditation and mindfulness in everyday life.  The list is 
unmoderated and welcomes all serious, mature disscusants.
  
You may subscribe from our Webpage:
http://satipatthana.org/

With Metta, Satisotujana

 
2149 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 10:54am
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2149?expand=1

 
  > Introducing the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061166114009152031050057046140006253136248038136183193071193172194143142 listerv! 
> 
> This list is for anyone interested in Theravada Buddhism, and 
> specifically with the practice of mindfulness (sati) and the four 
> foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana).  We will discuss the 
> Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas as well as all issues relating 
to 
> both meditation and mindfulness in everyday life.  The list is 
> unmoderated and welcomes all serious, mature disscusants.
>   
> You may subscribe from our Webpage:
> http://satipatthana.org/



Dear Satisotujana

Congratulations!  It's most beneficial to discuss the dhamma and we 
hope you have numerous participants!  I hope also that you will not 
be too busy to look in here from time to time, you are not leaving 
us, are you?  See you soon on the list,

Anumodana with all your kusala cetana,

Amara

 
2150 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:05am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering

 
  ÿþ  
2151 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear jim,
Just a couple of comments. 
Anyone who is going to develop samattha needs many supporting
conditions. These include seclusion and long periods of
application- and I think you have all these in abundance.
Secondly it needs a lot of wisdom which depends on careful study
and interpretation of the pali texts - and as you mentioned your
reliance on the Patisambhidhimagga (where they stress so much on
how desire can slip in), you have a good basis there too. 
On the quote from the Visudhimagga I might write some more about
concentration and how it is a support for panna tonight (am at
work now).
I guess the countryside is looking a litle white where you are?
Winter is just beginning here in the south of Japan and we
usually have one or two days where it snows in late January.
Robert
--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
> In a message dated: Thursday, November 23, 2000 3:01 AM EST
> you wrote:
> 
> >You also raise the subject of breath and anapannasati.
> >Others have mentioned their meditations on breath too.
> >This is a very important topic. I'd be interested to
> >hear what your purpose and goal is in this respect.
> >
> >You may feel this is unwelcome probing, in which case
> >pls don't feel under any obligation to answer. I know
> >you've studied and considered the Teachings deeply and
> >respect that you may not want to discuss your own
> >'practice' further. I know you're very busy with the
> >translation work too!
> 
> I don't mind discussing some aspects of the practice of
> anapanassati such as
> its purpose and goal. From reading recent posts on this list
> it appears
> that some members, including you and Amara, do not practise
> meditation
> or are not interested in doing so. I have no problem with this
> and can
> accept that there can be other ways of looking at and
> practising dhamma that
> differ from my own. I believe that ultimately everyone has to
> find the way
> best suited for him or her. This is probably the first
> Theravada group
> (DSSF) that I have encountered that does not encourage people
> to meditate.
> However, the main reason I'm on this list is the shared
> interest in the
> Abhidhamma teachings and the development of understanding.
> 
> I should give a little bit of my meditation background to help
> you
> understand why I'm interested in this practice. I have been
> meditating
> regularly since 1973 and have done many meditation retreats
> alone or with a
> group. The meditation centres that I have stayed at are Samye
> Ling,
> Scotland, 1973; Karme Choling, Vermont, 1974, 1978, 1982;
> Insight Meditation
> Society, Barre, MA 1976, 1978; & The Dharma Centre of Canada,
> Ontario,
> many times from 1979 to 1992. I stopped attending group
> retreats about nine
> years ago when I felt that they were no longer helping me and
> that I would
> be better off just to carry on by myself. I think my approach
> to meditation
> falls on the side of samatha instead of the more popular
> vipassana. My main
> purpose in meditating is to develop concentration to a higher
> degree in the
> direction of the jhanic attainments. I understand that,
> according to the
> Visuddhimagga, XIV.7, concentration is the proximate cause of
> understanding.
> This became clear to me in 1985 when I had a direct insight
> experience that
> I knew could not have taken place without the associated
> calmness of a
> concentrated mind I was also experiencing. So for me I
> consider a higher
> degree of concentration to be an excellent support for
> developing
> understanding.
> 
> Towards the end of the long list of 56 arupino dhammas of the
> first kusala
> citta in the Dhammasangani there are three pairs of terms:
> sati &
> sampajanna, samatha & vipassana, paggaha & avikkhepa. Of the
> three pairs, I
> consider my practice to be based on the middle pair: samatha &
> vipassana
> (meditation & dhamma study). Others may prefer to base their
> practice on the
> first pair (with mindfulness) instead.
> 
> Thanks for your other comments in the same message. I have
> sent this
> response several times since Sunday but none of them got
> through, so this is
> a 5th try with some editorial changes to the original
> response. I continue
> to have email problems but the messages from egroups are
> getting to me
> although yahoo has been sending me 3 to 6 copies of the same
> message.
> 
> May you and the others have a safe and pleasant journey to
> Bangkok and
> Cambodia.
> 
> Jim A.
> 
> 



 
2152 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:15am
Subject: cause of suffering

 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cause of suffering


Dear Wynn,
    Won't it be better if you ask your Non-buddist friend that what is suffering to him, because basic or common understanding of suffering in every individual is very different. It is better for us to understand what is his understanding of suffering first, and from there we can know how to begin the right understanding to him. And after his understanding of suffering, then going to the cause of suffering later. 
sincerely,
Ms.Shin 
 
 
2153 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 3:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear Jim A,

Thank you so much for your interesting and open
comments and all the detail you give. I'm sorry you're
having trouble w/yahoo/egroups...you're not alone. I'm
not sure which is worse: a) receiving multiple copies
of evrything as you do or b) sending out repeat copies
as I was. My solution in the end was to change server.

I may refer back to some of your comments later
(probably after the trip as I'm frantically juggling
students, parents, office work and getting ready). I
would like to just comment and raise a question on the
first part of your post for now.

--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> I don't mind discussing some aspects of the practice
> of anapanassati such as
> its purpose and goal. From reading recent posts on
> this list it appears
> that some members, including you and Amara, do not
> practise meditation
> or are not interested in doing so. I have no problem
> with this and can
> accept that there can be other ways of looking at
> and practising dhamma that
> differ from my own. I believe that ultimately
> everyone has to find the way
> best suited for him or her. This is probably the
> first Theravada group
> (DSSF) that I have encountered that does not
> encourage people to meditate.

I think we need to ask the qus. 'what is meditation'
and what does it mean 'to practise meditation'? I've
just checked my Oxford dict. which defines meditate as
'exercise the mind in contemplation'. Under this
definition, I'm sure anyone here could be said to
meditate, but you may say I'm quibbling over semantics
and this is not your meaning. We can see on this list
that even people who say they meditate in the sense of
'sitting' mean very different things. 'Your' practice
is very different from Michael J's practice and so on.

Personally, I prefer to consider the pali term of
bhavana (or mental development, s'times meditation). I
think what some of us are interested in is to
understand more about the 2 kinds of bhavana, i.e.
samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana and how these
(along with other kinds of kusala or skilful states)
can be developed in daily life. 

I try to understand more clearly what the Buddha
taught in this regard and understand, especially for
vipassana bhavana, that this doesn't exclude time
'sitting' in a quiet place nor does it demand it. The
key in vipassana bhavana is understanding the reality
appearing now and in samatha the key is understanding
how the given concepts or objects of samatha can calm
the mind.

I should mention that this list group consists of
about 5O people or groups with many views on this
subject of bhavana or meditation. We (I'm only
referring to those who have been around longer) look
forward to hearing and discussing these many views
further.

Thanks again, Jim. for your efforts to get your
important post thr' the list hurdles. I'm glad you
persisted and I apologise I cannot do justice to the
rest of your efforts for now.

Best rgds,
Sarah




 
2154 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 6:15pm
Subject: Translation

 
  Dear friends,

I am about halfway through the translation of 'Summary of Paccaya' 
(although the next two weeks I will probably have no time for it), 
today I came across this passage on p.35:

'Other than the 5 citta and their composing cetasika, other 
realities could be aramanadhipati.  The first obha-mula-citta- 
somanassa-sahagatam-ditthigata-sampayuttam-asankharikam is also 
aramanadhipati.  Does anyone like 
somanassa-sahagatam-ditthigata-sampayuttam-asankharikam?  It does 
not sound appealing but those with wrong view would like, would be 
pleased in the wrong view.

Therefore there appears to be much wrong view, attachment to it, and 
if the pleased feeling is accompanied by somanassa it would be 
somanassa-sahagatam-ditthigata-sampayuttam.

When one has studied the subject of paccaya in detail, one would see 
that it is difficult to change others' opinions, since each person 
is realities that arise and evolve according to accumulations of 
causes and conditions.  When a lot of wrong view is accumulated no 
matter the right reasoning the person who is satisfied with wrong 
view would prefer to continue to cling to the wrong view.
 
One should therefore really study the dhamma conscientiously, 
otherwise there might be wrong view about the dhamma, if there were 
not the right and thorough examination of the dhamma.'

(end quote)  


I think it is an opportune reminder for all of us, especially me, to 
do the best we can and leave all the rest to the individual's 
accumulations.  Again, that most difficult of the four among metta, 
karuna, mudita and upekkha, for me this last is still much to be  
developed.  Even the Buddha could not help everyone, in those times.  
So the best is all anyone has to offer, and be glad that we have 
done all we could!

By the way if anyone would like to see the half-translation as is 
without waiting for the completed book, please contact me off list,

Amara

 
2155 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 29, 2000 9:06pm
Subject: samma-samadhi (was meditation & study )

 
  --- 
Dear group,
I thought there might be some interest in Jim's reference on the
visuddhimagga:
Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> . "I understand that,
> according to the
> Visuddhimagga, XIV.7, concentration is the proximate cause of
> understanding.
> This became clear to me in 1985 when I had a direct insight
> experience that
> I knew could not have taken place without the associated
> calmness of a
> concentrated mind I was also experiencing. So for me I
> consider a higher
> degree of concentration to be an excellent support for
> developing
> understanding."

To understand this subject the Abhidhamma is helpful. Samadhi is
also called ekaggata cetasika and it accompanies all cittas
(sabbacitta sabarana). Thus it can be of all four jatis, kusala,
akusala, vipika and kitiya. When samattha meditation is
correctly developed then ekaggata cetasika becomes powerful and
focuses on the object of samattha, such as metta or the breath.
This samma-samattha always arises in conjunction with alobha
(detachment). When we simply concentrate on an object of
samattha it is possible to mistake lobha (attachment) and
ekaggata cetasika of the akusala jati (unwholesome) for
samma-samadhi. Even when we develop samattha correctly it can
become an immediate object for attachment- as the Patthana
notes. It can be a very strong object for attachment indeed,
because it is a decidely higher existence than our usual daily
life where moments of kusala(wholesomeness are intermitant).
When it is developed to the stage of jhana the purity of mind
and bliss and clarity is profound. For those who can develop
mastery jhana can be the basis for vipassana. Even for those who
go by insight alone, sukka-vipassaka, dry insight workers,
samattha is a supporting condition, as are all kusala including
genorosity and respect. Samattha can also be a condition for
miccha-ditthi (wrong view) as the Brahmajala sutta shows. 

Now what sort of samattha is meant by the visuddhimagga(xiv7)
when it says the proximate cause of panna(wisdom)? Obviously it
is not miccha-samadhi. Bear in mind that miccha-samadhi(wrong
concentration) comes in countless variations. If it arises in
conjunction with refined lobha(desire) it will feel calm and
peaceful. Samma-samadhi is of two main types: that associated
with satipatthana vipassana and that associated with samattha.
This is a little complicated, as we can perhaps say that the
type associated with samattha, if we include those who use
samattha as a base for vipassana, can function as both. However
for the path of pure vipassana samadhi is not the same as with
samattha meditation.
Whenever any citta arises there is samadhi. At any moment of
satipatthana, correct understanding of a paramattha dhamma,
there must be samadhi associated with it it. That type of
samadhi is samma-samadhi but it only lasts for  that moment or
moments that insight is occuring. It has the function of fixing
or focusing on the object. If samma-samadhi did not arise then
panna would not have a clear object to insight. At the moments
of vipassana-nana samadhi becomes very strong and the minddoor
process is vividly seen. However, both before and  after those
moments, samadhi may be at its usual daily life levels.
Samma-samadhi is a most necessary ingredient of the eighfactored
path but we must know that it can only arise when there is
samma-ditthi. That is why samma-ditthi(right understanding) is
of such significance in our discussions. 
I think newcomers to the list feel that many of us think
concentration and virtue (samadhi and sila) are something that,
if not injurious to the path, are at least dispensable. That is
not so, at least for me, nevertheless my main concern is with
the dangers of wrong view and its corollary, wrong practice.
This is due to my own very confused early years in Buddhism,
trying so hard but being blind to the difference between sati
and samadhi, and not realising that all my actions were
conditioned by a self, even while I was saying and thinking
"there is no self". Comparing the later ease of life since
learning about Abhidhamma means that I want others to likewise
benefit.
This does not mean that we should not talk about sila and
samattha. I  certainly need regular reminders about sila. And
samattha too (even if we are not trying to develop jhana) should
not be neglected- all kusala can be a support for vipassana.
Robert



 
2156 From: sotujana   
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 7:09am
Subject: thank you to Amara

 
  >Dear Satisotujana
>Congratulations!  It's most beneficial to discuss the dhamma and we 
>hope you have numerous participants!  I hope also that you will not 
>be too busy to look in here from time to time, you are not leaving 
>us, are you?  See you soon on the list,
>Anumodana with all your kusala cetana,
>Amara

Thank you very much, Amara!  If the Satipatthana listserv is even
partially as thought provoking and educational as the 
DhammaStudyGroup is I will consider it a success!  And no, I am not
leaving this list, though to be honest I bet most listmembers didn't 
know I was on it to begin with -- I tend to be rather quiet.  This list is 
one of my favorites, however, and I don't consider a day complete 
until I have read the digest.

with Metta, Satisotujana

 
2157 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 10:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear Robert,

Thanks for your comments below and for your later post on samma-samadhi. I
guess I'm fortunate in having the opportunity to study and practice the
dhamma in a quiet setting all year around without family and job
commitments.

The Patisambhidhamagga is a very important guiding text for my practice. You
will have noticed how the text first begins with a long treatise on
sammaa-di.t.thi (~Naa.na-kathaa) followed by a shorter one on
micchaa-di.t.thi before coming to the treatise on the mindfulness of
breathing.

It has turned milder here lately and nearly all the accumulated snow has
melted away. But this is only the beginning of winter and once the snow
builds up it stays with us until about the end of March. I believe the
coldest it got here last winter was around -33C.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:09 PM


>Dear jim,
>Just a couple of comments.
>Anyone who is going to develop samattha needs many supporting
>conditions. These include seclusion and long periods of
>application- and I think you have all these in abundance.
>Secondly it needs a lot of wisdom which depends on careful study
>and interpretation of the pali texts - and as you mentioned your
>reliance on the Patisambhidhimagga (where they stress so much on
>how desire can slip in), you have a good basis there too.
>On the quote from the Visudhimagga I might write some more about
>concentration and how it is a support for panna tonight (am at
>work now).
>I guess the countryside is looking a litle white where you are?
>Winter is just beginning here in the south of Japan and we
>usually have one or two days where it snows in late January.
>Robert

 
2158 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 11:03am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation & study (was: Pali qu)

 
  Dear Jim and Robert,

--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> You
> will have noticed how the text first begins with a
> long treatise on
> sammaa-di.t.thi (~Naa.na-kathaa) followed by a
> shorter one on
> micchaa-di.t.thi before coming to the treatise on
> the mindfulness of
> breathing.

Just a personal note:  From my experience,
understanding of miccha-ditthi is of primary
importance.  Also, the definition of right effort that
appears in many places in the Tipitaka, begins with
something to the effect of, 'it leads to the going
down of unwholesome states already arisen and the
non-arising of unwholesome states as yet unarisen; it
leads to the arising of wholesome states as yet
unarisen and the continuation, development and
perfection of wholesome states already arisen' or
something closely to that effect.  I'm paraphrasing,
and might be hard-put to produce citations.  Just
thought this was pertinent.  I may be wrong about this
(I usually am!) and welcome corrections!

mn 


 
2159 From:  
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 0:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear jonothan,

This is the gatha,
I am sorry that I couldnt trace the references, as the source that I copied the
gatha from is no longer with me.
I had copied it for my reference, but hadnt written down the references ...

I will write it down,
I hope that mike will be able to find the references[  :o) ]

I invite all the friends to give the exact meaning and interpretation +
explanation for us,


Here goes,


ayam loko santaapajaato, passa pareto rogam wadati attano,
yena yena hi ma~n~nati , tato tam hoti a~n~nataa,
a~n~natabhaavi bhavasatto , loko bhava pareto bhavamevabhinandati,
yadabhinandati tam bhayam, yassa bhaayati tam dukkham,
bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vuussati.

I got the general Idea of this,
But like a more Authentic one.

:o)



santaapajaato loko -> world born by santaapa
passa pareto  -> beacause of the passa ( contact )
rogam attano -> the soul-desease
bhavasatto bhavamevabhinandati -> the beings of the bhava get delight of the
bhava
yadabhinandati tam bhayam -> bicos of that byaya arises
yassa bhaayati tam dukkham -> and bicos of that bhaya , dukkha arises
bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vussati -> to get rid of that bhava
, holylife is lived


Rgds







Jonothan Abbott  on 11/28/2000 07:24:38 PM


Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

Gayan

> Actually I dont know how to translate them, thats
> why I put these here

Could have fooled me.  You seem to have such a good
grasp of the texts.  I thought I was the only one who
didn't understand it!

> mannana is a key word to understand samma ditthi,
> and a correct english translation will really help
> many people

Yes, I'm beginning to get a sense of its importance.
But I am also beginning to doubt that a suitable terms
exists in English.  Bhikkhu Bodhi says as much in his
introduction.

Perhaps you and Amara could tell us something about
the terms that are used in Singhala and Thai to
translate this term?

> in an another pali gatha , buddha says
>
> the beings ( satta) yena yena hi mannati, tato tam
> hoti annata
>
> 'the ignorant beings do mannana with various things,
> so the annata ( otherness)
> arises.'
>
> ( thisness and otherness is the cause of samsara
> vata )
>
>
> I will give the references if I can find them
> quickly.

Thanks.  I look forward to that.

Jonothan


 
2160 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 0:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan,

---  wrote:
 
> I will write it down,
> I hope that mike will be able to find the
> references[  :o) ]

Yeppers!  I will try--can you give me a few references
in english?

Your Friend,

mn


 
 
2161 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 9:42pm
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Mike,

I’m sorry I confused you by correcting the one
sentence in my very long post to Michael J that you
picked up on!

>---  Sarah 
>wrote:
>
>> Breathing is a concept and not an object of 
>> satipatthana, so there cannot be the development of

>>vipassana whilst focussing on the breath or any 
>> other concept.
>
>Now that you've said this, it seems quite obvious.  
>Still, this single sentence is (for myself) the
>clearest and most succinct explanation of the
>underlying differences we've been discussing to date.
>
>This is meant as a personal observation only, as it
>perfectly highlights the biggest (perhaps) wrong
>turning that I took when attempting institutionalized
>vipassana bhavana.  Whether or not this is true for
>anyone else is clearly a matter for individual
>investigation.
>
>This, to me, is the great advantage of this group and
>its specific focus on abhidhamma--had I not had the
>good luck(?!) to encounter you all, I don't think I'd
>have ever made the distinction between paramattha
>dhamma and concept.  Thanks again!

Well, this is the important distinction that needs to
be made because most of the time when there is
concentrating or focussing on an object there is no
understanding of a reality and hence no vipassana
development taking place. The small correction that
follows doesn't change this.


>sarah... wrote:
>
>> I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to say
>> that the concept of breath cannot be the object of
>> insight or vipassana. Of course there can be
>> understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on
breath
>> or any other concept, but the object must be a
reality
>> such as softness/hardness or thinking.
>

>Well! Having previously applauded the sentence you've
corrected 
>here, I'm doubly curious. Is it true that
understanding or insight 
>may arise while the mind is 'darting among
unrealities'? Seems I 
>need to look at this a little more closely.

Yes, except that technically speaking, they are
different moments. One moment there may be thinking
about breath (a concept), another moment there can be
awareness of thinking, hardness or softness, or any
other reality which appears. So while darting (or to
be precise, in between the darting), there can be
moments of understanding. Whilst breathing, standing,
walking, sitting, there are realities which can be
known. This is in essence what the Satipatthana Sutta
is discussing. Breathing, sitting, standing, walking
are concepts which cannot be known. But this is our
daily life. This is what we do. Whilst following these
activities, awareness can be developed naturally of
any realities appearing without any special focussing.

>I guess that, given that only one citta can arise at
a time, with 
>only one object, the problem is with the expression.
Not really 
>a 'mind darting'...still, this does bring to mind the
simile of 
>trying to get milk by twisting a cow's horn.
>
>Please excuse my rambling. Maybe I'm just mixed up in
semantics. 
>Any thoughts?

No, I think you understood the essence of the original
post perfectly (and my subsequent minor alteration
didn't change this). Your experiences and (former?)
confusion about concept and reality are common to all
of us. Seeing the dust in the eyes is not easy.

>Thanks in advance...Mike 

Thanks for urging me to clarify further too.

Sarah


 
2162 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Dear Jonothan,

Sorry to be so long in replying.  I've fallen behind
in my correspondence:

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form
> of
> akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it
> is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting
> this as a form of 'practice'.  

Too true!  However, I think the greatest danger is in
thinking that 'I'm' adopting the practice. 

> (Indeed, whole
> schools
> of meditation practice have built up around this
> concept.)  This of course would be a mistake,
> because
> it is wanting to be other that we truly are at that
> moment.  

Certainly a big mistake to take this for the eightfold
path!  Especially combined with sakkaya-ditthi and
somanassa-sahagata.  Kinda like treating heroin
addiction with morphine...

> And of course, getting rid of the dosa of
> the
> present moment by such means does not address the
> fundamental problem - lack of developed
> understanding.

...and MIGHT even preclude the possibility of its
development.
 
> Actually, most of the ideas we have about 'practice'
> are wrong view (miccha ditthi).  

Definitely--can't be helped.

> This should not
> surprise us.  Just as we have more akusala in
> general
> in a day that kusala, so too with miccha ditti/samma
> ditthi in particular.  Once we manage to accept
> this,
> it means we are more likely to recognise the miccha
> ditthi when it arises.  This is vital for creating
> the
> right conditions for more awareness and right
> understanding to arise.

Yes, learning to recognize akusala in general and
miccha-ditthi in particular is essential, I think.
 
> As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously
> unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing.  Much
> more useful than supressing those moments of
> akusala!

Definitely.  And often with the welcome side effect of
displacing the akusala anyway--without 'anyone'
needing to 'look at' anything--hah!
 
Mike


 
2163 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Nov 30, 2000 11:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:
>  
> > Do you have any
> > current information on scheduling of broadcasts in
> > English of Ajahn Sujin's talks on internet radio?
> 
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30
> BKK time since 
> that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get
> it, would make 
> one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both
> in English, 
> starting this Dec. 1st, 2000.  

This is excellent news.  If this is on schedule, it
should be tomorrow night.  Can you please remind me of
where I can find this on the internet?  Thanks in
advance!

> We are way behind
> editing the tapes, 
> though, so it migh be a while before the English
> really air.  Sorry 
> for the delay, it's been a bit hectic lately!
> 
> I would like to also announce the schedule of the
> first half of 
> December in the newsletter section (Newsletter 9) at
> 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> just finished
> uploading.  Have a look at 
> the lovely background!

Very nice!  And thanks again...

Mike


 
2164 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 0:25am
Subject: Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9

 
  > > We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30
> > BKK time since 
> > that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get
> > it, would make 
> > one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both
> > in English, 
> > starting this Dec. 1st, 2000.  
> 
> This is excellent news.  If this is on schedule, it
> should be tomorrow night.  Can you please remind me of
> where I can find this on the internet?  Thanks in
> advance!


Dear Sir!

The easiest is still to go to the link on the Schedules page in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and click on the internet radio TV5 
there, at the bottom of the page.

I would appreciate any feedback, thanks in advance,

Amara

 
2165 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 1:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan and Mike N.

>Dear jonothan,
>
>This is the gatha,
>I am sorry that I couldnt trace the references, as the source that I copied
>the gatha from is no longer with me.
>I had copied it for my reference, but hadnt written down the references ...

The gatha is found in the Lokasutta of the Udaana (Ud 3.10).

>I will write it down,
>I hope that mike will be able to find the references[  :o) ]
>
>I invite all the friends to give the exact meaning and interpretation +
>explanation for us,
>
>
>Here goes,
>
>
>ayam loko santaapajaato, passa pareto rogam wadati attano,
>yena yena hi ma~n~nati , tato tam hoti a~n~nataa,
>a~n~natabhaavi bhavasatto , loko bhava pareto bhavamevabhinandati,
>yadabhinandati tam bhayam, yassa bhaayati tam dukkham,
>bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vuussati.

The reading given in the Indian Devanagari ed. is:

aya.m loko santaapajaato, phassapareto roga.m vadati attato, [or attano]
yena yena hi ma~n~nati, tato ta.m hoti a~n~nathaa.

a~n~nathaabhaavii bhavasatto loko, bhavapareto bhavamevaabhinandati,
yadabhinandati ta.m bhaya.m, yassa bhaayati ta.m dukkha.m,
bhavavippahaanaaya kho panidam brahmacariyam vussati.

These gathas are also quoted in the Nettippakarana and Petakopadesa. I have
looked at a couple of translations which appear somewhat unclear and
confused to me, so I won't offer any here. Masefield and ~Naa.namoli
translates 'ma~n~nati' as 'conceives'. The Udana commentary notes:
[conceives] due to the conceits of view, conceit, and craving.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2166 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 2:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Sadhu, cooperation!

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-10.html

--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> Dear Gayan and Mike N.
> 
> >Dear jonothan,
> >
> >This is the gatha,
> >I am sorry that I couldnt trace the references, as
> the source that I copied
> >the gatha from is no longer with me.
> >I had copied it for my reference, but hadnt written
> down the references ...
> 
> The gatha is found in the Lokasutta of the Udaana
> (Ud 3.10).
> 
> >I will write it down,
> >I hope that mike will be able to find the
> references[  :o) ]
> >
> >I invite all the friends to give the exact meaning
> and interpretation +
> >explanation for us,
> >
> >
> >Here goes,
> >
> >
> >ayam loko santaapajaato, passa pareto rogam wadati
> attano,
> >yena yena hi ma~n~nati , tato tam hoti a~n~nataa,
> >a~n~natabhaavi bhavasatto , loko bhava pareto
> bhavamevabhinandati,
> >yadabhinandati tam bhayam, yassa bhaayati tam
> dukkham,
> >bhava vippahaanaya kho panidam brahmacariyam
> vuussati.
> 
> The reading given in the Indian Devanagari ed. is:
> 
> aya.m loko santaapajaato, phassapareto roga.m vadati
> attato, [or attano]
> yena yena hi ma~n~nati, tato ta.m hoti a~n~nathaa.
> 
> a~n~nathaabhaavii bhavasatto loko, bhavapareto
> bhavamevaabhinandati,
> yadabhinandati ta.m bhaya.m, yassa bhaayati ta.m
> dukkha.m,
> bhavavippahaanaaya kho panidam brahmacariyam
> vussati.
> 
> These gathas are also quoted in the Nettippakarana
> and Petakopadesa. I have
> looked at a couple of translations which appear
> somewhat unclear and
> confused to me, so I won't offer any here. Masefield
> and ~Naa.namoli
> translates 'ma~n~nati' as 'conceives'. The Udana
> commentary notes:
> [conceives] due to the conceits of view, conceit,
> and craving.
> 
> With best wishes,
> Jim A.
> 
> 



 
2167 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 4:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> The easiest is still to go to the link on the
> Schedules page in 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and click on the
> internet radio TV5 
> there, at the bottom of the page.
> 
> I would appreciate any feedback, thanks in advance,

I will certainly keep you posted--thanks again!

mn


 
2168 From: shinlin   
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 11:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9

 
  FANTASTIC...... Anumodana
Ms.Shin Lin
Zebra Computer Company Limited
1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd
Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400
Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines )
Fax : 66-2-6516001
company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: amara chay 
To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:25 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Schedules + Newsletter 9





> > We are trying to get another half hour slot at 11.30
> > BKK time since 
> > that will be at 21.30 CA time, which, if we do get
> > it, would make 
> > one half hour at 2.30am and 11.30am BKK time, both
> > in English, 
> > starting this Dec. 1st, 2000.  
> 
> This is excellent news.  If this is on schedule, it
> should be tomorrow night.  Can you please remind me of
> where I can find this on the internet?  Thanks in
> advance!


Dear Sir!

The easiest is still to go to the link on the Schedules page in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and click on the internet radio TV5 
there, at the bottom of the page.

I would appreciate any feedback, thanks in advance,

Amara



 
 
2169 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 8:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Jim and Mike

Great,

Thanks! Thanks! Thanks!


Jim I would like to know your understandings about

itthabhava and an~n~atabhava



rgds

 
2170 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 8:20pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Robert

you said-->

"Each moment is conditioned in manifold ways, and
those conditions are likewise conditioned.  Now we are in the
human realm but we don't know when, maybe a few short processes
from now, cuti-citta(death consciousness ) will arise and then
patisandhi will ocur in a new life, as animal or man or deva or
somewhere else."

yes indeed..and its controller-less..hmm..

I remember a story in tipitaka where the scene is the (conventional) death
of a very virtuous monk...apart from all his virtue the next stage of the
continuum was as a little insect in his(previous life) own robe..just
because at the death moment his citta had lobha for his brand new glowing
robe...but its was just for a very short time ( may be hours or days) as
then the next stage of continuum which was in a deva world ,was conditioned
by his virtues .. so funny

No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to time looking
at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny vatta..


rgds

 
2171 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 8:46pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan,
Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same
elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those
of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who
were skilled in  Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed
special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think
we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is
conditioned by accumulations and kamma.
I  love that example of the monk who became an insect and then a
deva. Even while he was an insect he had clinging to the robe
(and no doubt believed he could control things- he probably
thought he was a fortunate bug to have such a nice robe to
infest-maybe he looked down on the other insects who lived in
poor quality robes!). It is simply lobha and delusion that make
us cling to the khandas in whatever existence we are in.
Robert

---  wrote: > 
> Dear Robert
> 
> you said-->
> 
> "Each moment is conditioned in manifold ways, and
> those conditions are likewise conditioned.  Now we are in the
> human realm but we don't know when, maybe a few short
> processes
> from now, cuti-citta(death consciousness ) will arise and then
> patisandhi will ocur in a new life, as animal or man or deva
> or
> somewhere else."
> 
> yes indeed..and its controller-less..hmm..
> 
> I remember a story in tipitaka where the scene is the
> (conventional) death
> of a very virtuous monk...apart from all his virtue the next
> stage of the
> continuum was as a little insect in his(previous life) own
> robe..just
> because at the death moment his citta had lobha for his brand
> new glowing
> robe...but its was just for a very short time ( may be hours
> or days) as
> then the next stage of continuum which was in a deva world
> ,was conditioned
> by his virtues .. so funny
> 
> No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to
> time looking
> at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny
> vatta..
> 
> 
> rgds
> 
> 
> 



 
2172 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 11:02pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Nice story! Do you recall where the story lives in tipitika?


>I remember a story in tipitaka where the scene is the (conventional) death
>of a very virtuous monk...apart from all his virtue the next stage of the
>continuum was as a little insect in his(previous life) own robe..just
>because at the death moment his citta had lobha for his brand new glowing
>robe...but its was just for a very short time ( may be hours or days) as
>then the next stage of continuum which was in a deva world ,was conditioned
>by his virtues .. so funny
>
>No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to time looking
>at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny vatta..
>
>
>rgds
>

 
2173 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Dec 1, 2000 11:52pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > No wonder why arahants 'laughf' ( hasituppaada) from time to time 
looking
> at funny worldlings who are hilariously stuck on to the funny 
vatta..


Dear Gayan,

Just a little remark, the hasitupada citta do not cause laughter, at 
most a smile.  Not like for us, when the smile (or anything more than 
that,) is mostly lobha!
=^_^=
Amara

 
2174 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 0:26am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  ---   wrote:
> Nice story! Do you recall where the story lives in tipitika?


Dear dhd5,

Hi! and welcome!  I'm sure Gayan, Mike or someone will get you the 
references, and look forward to rereading it with you,

Amara

 
2175 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 1:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan,

You ask:
>
>Jim I would like to know your understandings about
>
>itthabhava and an~n~atabhava
>
Actually, I was not familiar with these two words until you mentioned them.
To find out more I normally check the dictionaries and commentaries. The CPD
translates 'itthabhaava' as: such an existence, or the existence here (in
this life). It also cites some commentarial interpretations: = manussatta,
or manussabhaava, or attabhaava, or cakkavaa.la. So the interpretation will
depend on the context the word is found in. The CPD translates
'itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava' as: existence thus and otherwise, in this and
another form.

The commentarial interpretation given for AN IV.9 (4.1.9) is:

itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaavan ti ettha itthabhaavo naama aya.m attabhaavo,
a~n~nathaabhaavo naama anaagatattabhaavo; evaruupo vaa a~n~no pi
attabhaavo itthabhaavo naama, na evaruupo a~n~nathaabhaavo naama;
ta.m itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava.m. (AA iii 13)

'itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava' -- here, this self-existence is called
'itthabhaava', the future self-existence is called 'a~n~nathaabhaava'; or
another such-like self-existence is called 'itthabhaava', not (another)
such-like (self-existence) is called 'a~n~nathaabhaava';
'ta.m itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava.m'.

This is just my rough translation.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
 
2176 From:  
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 5:41am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Gayan,
> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same
> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those
> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who
> were skilled in  Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed
> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think
> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is
> conditioned by accumulations and kamma.

Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded of 
a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the Abhidhamma 
vs the Suttas.

I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes"
as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything 
one needs is already in the Suttas?

Thank you and kindest regards,
Veronica Ma.

 
2177 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 9:19am
Subject: WHY Abhidhamma?

 
  Dear dhd5,
Welcome to the discussion. I think the story came from the
dhammapada commentary but Gayan can probably tell you for sure.

Dear veronica,
Welcome also. 
The Theravada tradition holds the Abhidhamma as the crowning
point, the zenith of the Buddha's doctrine.  Bhikkhu Bodhi notes
in his introduction to the Abhidhammatthasangaha "In Sri Lanka
King Kassapa V  had the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed on
gold plates and the first book set in gems, while another king,
Vijayabahu (eleventh century) used to study the Dhammasangani
each morning before taking up his royal duties and composed a
translation of it into Sinhala." 
While there is much Abhidhamma to be found in the suttas,
especially in the samyutta nikaya, the comprehensive detail in
the Abhidhamma is most useful for even those whose tastes lie
mainly with the suttas.
To understand the way things really are we have to analyse our
"world" into its constituent parts and learn what is concept and
what is truly real. This is the function of the Abhidhamma. 

Bodhi writes
"The great Buddhist commentator, Acariya Buddhaghosa, explains
the word "Abhidhamma" as meaning "that which exceeds and is
distinguished from the Dhamma" (dhammatireka-dhammavisesa), the
prefix abhi having the sense of preponderance and distinction,
and dhamma here signifying the teaching of the Sutta Pitaka.
When the Abhidhamma is said to surpass the teaching of the
Suttas, this is not intended to suggest that the Suttanta
teaching is defective in any degree or that the Abhidhamma
proclaims some new revelation of esoteric doctrine unknown to
the Suttas. Both the Suttas and the Abhidhamma are grounded upon
the Buddha's unique doctrine of the Four Noble Truths, and all
the principles essential to the attainment of enlightenment are
already expounded in the Sutta Pitaka. The difference between
the two in no way concerns fundamentals but is, rather, partly a
matter of scope and partly a matter of method. 
As to scope, the Abhidhamma offers a thoroughness and
completeness of treatment that cannot be found in the Sutta
Pitaka. Acariya Buddhaghosa explains that in the Suttas such
doctrinal categories as the five aggregates, the twelve sense
bases, the eighteen elements, and so forth, are classified only
partly, while in the Abhidhamma Pitaka they are classified fully
according to different schemes of classification, some common to
the Suttas, others unique to the Abhidhamma. Thus the Abhidhamma
has a scope and an intricacy of detail that set it apart from
the Sutta Pitaka. "




I have heard it said that the Abhidhamma is a later addition to
the Tipitika. This is considered a most ill-founded heresy
according to the Theravada tradition. The Atthasalini explains
that in the fourth week after the Enlightenment, while the
Blessed One was still dwelling near Bodhi Tree, he sat in a
jewel house, Ratanaghara, in the northwest direction. (I saw
this place in Boddhagaya in January and it has a marble tablet
commemorating the site) and contemplated the seven books of the
Abhidhamma Pitaka. While investigating the first six books his
body did not emit rays. However, upon coming to the Patthana,
when "he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal
conditional relations of root, object, and so on, his
omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. For as the
great fish Timiratipingala finds room only in the great ocean
84,000 yojanas in depth, so his omniscience truly finds room
only in the Great Book. Rays of six colours -- indigo, golden,
red, white, tawny, and dazzling -- issued from the Teacher's
body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Dhamma by
his omniscience which had found such opportunity."
The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa
deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could
grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his
students.

This is very brief. Please ask more if you would like further
confirmation of the value of Abhidhamma. 
Robert






 
2178 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 10:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Veronica,

See my response below.

>---  Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
>> Dear Gayan,
>> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same
>> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those
>> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who
>> were skilled in  Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed
>> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think
>> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is
>> conditioned by accumulations and kamma.
>
>Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded of
>a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the Abhidhamma
>vs the Suttas.
>
>I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes"
>as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything
>one needs is already in the Suttas?
>
>Thank you and kindest regards,
>Veronica Ma.
>
I think your question touches on the subject of the conventional teaching
(sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching (paramattha-desanaa)
which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N. Jayatilleke
translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge_ p. 364
as follows:

"the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those who are capable
of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the meaning,
discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who are capable of
listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth, discarding
ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute truth."
-- AA i 94

Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies: penetrating the
meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both 'visesa'].

Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the truth is possible
by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using the language
a person readily understands and there is no implication that one language
is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the view of modern
orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly regarding Ledi
Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an erroneous view'.

I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is dominated by
the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is dominated by the
absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either pitaka. It is
obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the two. I have noted
that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage or even warn
against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There is also much
doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, but the Pali
commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above, I think one
could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever venturing into
the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from both.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2179 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 10:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Jim,
Thanks for the additional info. and your mature (as always)
outlook here. A while ago you posted a brief summary that noted
the Abhidhamma especially distinguished nama and rupa - which is
of course what vipassana does. I forgot the exact wording but it
compared the vinaya, suttanta and Abhidhamma. It might be worth
reposting this.
Robert
--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear Veronica,
> 
> See my response below.
> 
> >---  Robert Kirkpatrick
> > wrote:
> >> Dear Gayan,
> >> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same
> >> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be -
> those
> >> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time
> those who
> >> were skilled in  Abhidhamma kept company, those who
> developed
> >> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We
> think
> >> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is
> >> conditioned by accumulations and kamma.
> >
> >Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am
> reminded of
> >a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the
> Abhidhamma
> >vs the Suttas.
> >
> >I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar
> tastes"
> >as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if
> everything
> >one needs is already in the Suttas?
> >
> >Thank you and kindest regards,
> >Veronica Ma.
> >
> I think your question touches on the subject of the
> conventional teaching
> (sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching
> (paramattha-desanaa)
> which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N.
> Jayatilleke
> translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of
> Knowledge_ p. 364
> as follows:
> 
> "the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those
> who are capable
> of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the
> meaning,
> discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who
> are capable of
> listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth,
> discarding
> ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute
> truth."
> -- AA i 94
> 
> Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies:
> penetrating the
> meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both
> 'visesa'].
> 
> Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the
> truth is possible
> by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using
> the language
> a person readily understands and there is no implication that
> one language
> is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the
> view of modern
> orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly
> regarding Ledi
> Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an
> erroneous view'.
> 
> I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is
> dominated by
> the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is
> dominated by the
> absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either
> pitaka. It is
> obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the
> two. I have noted
> that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage
> or even warn
> against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There
> is also much
> doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma,
> but the Pali
> commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above,
> I think one
> could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever
> venturing into
> the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from
> both.
> 
> With best wishes,
> Jim A.
> 
> 



 
2180 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Jim,

This is also a subject which has perplexed me, as you already know, which is
why I am here, to see what the fuss is about. One sentence of your last here
stands out as something I would like to get your understanding on.

You say:  There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught
the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did.

Can you give us a few quotes of materials which have been suggestive to you
that the conclusion that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha is
justifiable? As an outsider what I have heard is that the Abhidhamma was
taught by Sariputta after the Miracle of the Twins to the dwellers in the
Tussita Realm. Is the real story different?

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Anderson 
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi


Dear Veronica,

See my response below.

>---  Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
>> Dear Gayan,
>> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same
>> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those
>> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who
>> were skilled in  Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed
>> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think
>> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is
>> conditioned by accumulations and kamma.
>
>Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded of
>a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the Abhidhamma
>vs the Suttas.
>
>I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes"
>as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything
>one needs is already in the Suttas?
>
>Thank you and kindest regards,
>Veronica Ma.
>
I think your question touches on the subject of the conventional teaching
(sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching (paramattha-desanaa)
which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N. Jayatilleke
translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge_ p. 364
as follows:

"the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those who are capable
of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the meaning,
discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who are capable of
listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth, discarding
ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute truth."
-- AA i 94

Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies: penetrating the
meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both 'visesa'].

Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the truth is possible
by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using the language
a person readily understands and there is no implication that one language
is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the view of modern
orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly regarding Ledi
Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an erroneous view'.

I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is dominated by
the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is dominated by the
absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either pitaka. It is
obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the two. I have noted
that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage or even warn
against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There is also much
doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, but the Pali
commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above, I think one
could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever venturing into
the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from both.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2181 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 0:13pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] WHY Abhidhamma?

 
  Robert, thank you for this summary, as you will no doubt notice I had just
moments before asked Jim to give us such a summary.

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:19 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] WHY Abhidhamma?


Dear dhd5,
Welcome to the discussion. I think the story came from the
dhammapada commentary but Gayan can probably tell you for sure.

Dear veronica,
Welcome also.
The Theravada tradition holds the Abhidhamma as the crowning
point, the zenith of the Buddha's doctrine.  Bhikkhu Bodhi notes
in his introduction to the Abhidhammatthasangaha "In Sri Lanka
King Kassapa V  had the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed on
gold plates and the first book set in gems, while another king,
Vijayabahu (eleventh century) used to study the Dhammasangani
each morning before taking up his royal duties and composed a
translation of it into Sinhala."
While there is much Abhidhamma to be found in the suttas,
especially in the samyutta nikaya, the comprehensive detail in
the Abhidhamma is most useful for even those whose tastes lie
mainly with the suttas.
To understand the way things really are we have to analyse our
"world" into its constituent parts and learn what is concept and
what is truly real. This is the function of the Abhidhamma.

Bodhi writes
"The great Buddhist commentator, Acariya Buddhaghosa, explains
the word "Abhidhamma" as meaning "that which exceeds and is
distinguished from the Dhamma" (dhammatireka-dhammavisesa), the
prefix abhi having the sense of preponderance and distinction,
and dhamma here signifying the teaching of the Sutta Pitaka.
When the Abhidhamma is said to surpass the teaching of the
Suttas, this is not intended to suggest that the Suttanta
teaching is defective in any degree or that the Abhidhamma
proclaims some new revelation of esoteric doctrine unknown to
the Suttas. Both the Suttas and the Abhidhamma are grounded upon
the Buddha's unique doctrine of the Four Noble Truths, and all
the principles essential to the attainment of enlightenment are
already expounded in the Sutta Pitaka. The difference between
the two in no way concerns fundamentals but is, rather, partly a
matter of scope and partly a matter of method.
As to scope, the Abhidhamma offers a thoroughness and
completeness of treatment that cannot be found in the Sutta
Pitaka. Acariya Buddhaghosa explains that in the Suttas such
doctrinal categories as the five aggregates, the twelve sense
bases, the eighteen elements, and so forth, are classified only
partly, while in the Abhidhamma Pitaka they are classified fully
according to different schemes of classification, some common to
the Suttas, others unique to the Abhidhamma. Thus the Abhidhamma
has a scope and an intricacy of detail that set it apart from
the Sutta Pitaka. "




I have heard it said that the Abhidhamma is a later addition to
the Tipitika. This is considered a most ill-founded heresy
according to the Theravada tradition. The Atthasalini explains
that in the fourth week after the Enlightenment, while the
Blessed One was still dwelling near Bodhi Tree, he sat in a
jewel house, Ratanaghara, in the northwest direction. (I saw
this place in Boddhagaya in January and it has a marble tablet
commemorating the site) and contemplated the seven books of the
Abhidhamma Pitaka. While investigating the first six books his
body did not emit rays. However, upon coming to the Patthana,
when "he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal
conditional relations of root, object, and so on, his
omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. For as the
great fish Timiratipingala finds room only in the great ocean
84,000 yojanas in depth, so his omniscience truly finds room
only in the Great Book. Rays of six colours -- indigo, golden,
red, white, tawny, and dazzling -- issued from the Teacher's
body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Dhamma by
his omniscience which had found such opportunity."
The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa
deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could
grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his
students.

This is very brief. Please ask more if you would like further
confirmation of the value of Abhidhamma.
Robert






 
2182 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 1:16pm
Subject: members websites

 
  Dear group,
I thought you might be interested in the following links. These
are Buddhism Websites of members of this discussion group. If
any are missing please let me know:

http://www.dhammastudy.com/  run by Amara

http://www.zolag.co.uk/  website of Zolag a Buddhist publisher ,
and owned by Alan Weller, an occasional poster here.

http://www.buddhadust.org/ owner Michael Olds

http://satipatthana.org/  owner Satisotujana

http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/  owner Mike Potter

All these sites have a wealth of information on Theravada
Buddhism.
Robert




 
2183 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 7:17pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Me, too. Very edifying, if not scrumptious. My accumulations are such 
that I often have trouble accepting what English speakers say certain 
Pali terms mean until an etymology is available. 

There are so many inaccurate and misleading translations and usages 
hanging around 'farang dhammaland' that, for me, it feeds doubt. 
Sometimes the scene reminds me of business management seminars where 
a large quotient of jargon is employed to disguise the fact that no 
one quite knows what they're talking about! 

More, please!

Joe

---  "amara chay"  
wrote:
> 
> > Hello. I may be able to contribute something to the discussion of 
> Ma~n~nati.
> > Please allow me, as a first posting, to jump right in.
> 
> 
> Dear Mo,
> 
> Wow!! and welcome to a spectacular debutant!  Looking forward to 
more 
> of your scrumptious posts,
> 
> Amara

 
2184 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 7:36pm
Subject: buddhadasa's view, as interpreted by santikaro bhikkhu

 
  Would anyone care to comment on the following exchange which appeared 
on the Buddhadasa egroup forum?

Joe Cummings wrote:

> Thanks very much for the excerpt from 'Mindfulness'. I found it very
> elucidating in terms of the question I was asking earlier about
> 'calming the formations' vis a vis Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's thought. If
> your translation is reasonably accurate, then the Ven. Ajahn seems 
to
> be confirming the line I was suggesting previously, that sati must
> arise before the formations arise in order for them to 'calm' or 
stop
> (i.e., not arise).

### Santikaro: This is true in one meaning of the word SANKHARA, that 
is, the meaning equivalent to the 4th khandha, more or less thinking 
& emotions.

    However, SANKHARA has other applications, one of them very subtle.
If one overlooks the different ways that some key Pali terms are used,
the result will be a rigid system that loses the Buddha's skillful
insight & flexibility.

> Hence once formations have arisen, sati observes and if pañña is
> present, causality may be altered, but sati cannot affect a 
formation
> already conditioned by previous kamma or action. This accords with 
the
> tipitaka of course, ...

### Santikaro: It does? The effects of "past kamma" is only sometimes 
linear & mechanistic. The 3-fold distinction on how soon kamma bears 
fruit allows for a lot of non-linear causality. This is reinforced by 
the understanding, primarily in Abhidhamma, that there are 24 kinds of
paccaya (conditions).

    In short, the tradition often speaks of how the effects of "old
kamma" can be influenced by "new kamma."

    If "sati cannot affect a formation already conditioned by previous
kamma or action," where & how is that SANKHARA stored or somehow
maintained in such an isolated condition? (Your assertion, btw, does 
not fit w/ the best of recent neuro-biology.)

> and strengthens confidence in practice. So it appears obvious that
> Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did not and would not endorse a view that the
> formations could be 'calmed', ....

### Santikaro: I am curious what you base such assumptions on. He 
did, in fact, say that SANKHARA can be calmed. This is a well-known & 
widely accepted idea in Theravada Buddhism, even among those who are 
much more "orthodox" than us.

    It appears that your logic is leading you to various assumptions &
that you expect Ajarn Buddhadasa to agree with you. I suggest you 
review some of your assumptions & your understanding of key terms, 
like SANKHARA.

> but rather that, as your translation reads:
>
> "Each day, we have many contacts with our six senses, [and] no 
matter
> what the number is, we must have mindfulness which will bring wisdom
> in time. The defilement ( kilesa) and suffering (dukkha) will not
> arise."
>
> Notice that he doesn't say that kilesa or dukkha, once arisen, can 
be
> altered by mindfulness or wisdom. It would seem that this Buddhadasa
> Bhikkhu treatise ....

### Santikaro: More like a single booklet transcribed from a talk.

> confirms that even constant sati cannot stop the results of previous
> kamma, which will unfold according to the law of dependent 
origination
> as described by the Buddha himself.

### Santikaro: You're putting words in his mouth. You have been 
stressing a point
that you have every right to believe in, if you wish, & that seems in
accordance w/ orthodox Burmese teaching (Abhidhammist flavored).
However, you are wrong in this assumption of what Tan Ajarn taught.

    Are you familiar w/ the Buddha's teaching of Dependent
Co-origination? OR are you following the commentarial explanations of 
it (3 lifetimes)? The latter is a rather forced interpretation of 
what the Buddha is recorded to have said. The Suttas are open to 
other readings & Ajarn Buddhadasa strenuously disagrees w/ 
Buddhaghosa's commentarial line (now the Theravada orthodoxy) on some 
key points, e.g., the meaning of SANKHARA.

    I regret that I am slow to publish good translations of Tan 
Ajarn's understanding of these matters. SPMD is helping with some 
short passages and I have some major stuff in the works, for those 
who want to know Tan Ajarn's perspective. Please don't try to cram 
him into the orthodox view.

-------------

I think it's pretty clear that I'm on shaky ground myself (as usual), 
but what do you think of Santikaro's intimation that 
the 'Abhidhammist' school is linear and mechanistic? Obviously you 
wouldn't agree, but what's the counter?

 
2185 From:  
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 8:47pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Jim and Robert,

Thank you both for answering my question.  I very much appreciate and 
respect your straightforwardness and honesty.  

I have many questions.  Too many, I think sometimes. :)  But all my 
questions are with the intention to help me understand and remove 
doubt while there is still time, while I am lucky enough to be in
this life with a mind to do so.

So I thank you both for helping me do this.

Kindest regards,
Veronica.


---  "Jim Anderson"  wrote:
> Dear Veronica,
> 
> See my response below.
> 
> >---  Robert Kirkpatrick
> > wrote:
> >> Dear Gayan,
> >> Again I am struck by how we are both impressed by the same
> >> elements of the Tipitika. This is the way it should be - those
> >> of similar tastes gather together. In the Buddhas time those who
> >> were skilled in  Abhidhamma kept company, those who developed
> >> special powers associated; and many other groups also. We think
> >> we choose who our company is but at a deeper level it is
> >> conditioned by accumulations and kamma.
> >
> >Please excuse my jumping into this conversation, but I am reminded 
of
> >a question I would like to ask regarding the study of the 
Abhidhamma
> >vs the Suttas.
> >
> >I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes"
> >as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything
> >one needs is already in the Suttas?
> >
> >Thank you and kindest regards,
> >Veronica Ma.
> >
> I think your question touches on the subject of the conventional 
teaching
> (sammuti-desanaa) in contrast to the absolute teaching 
(paramattha-desanaa)
> which is discussed in the Anguttaranikaya commentary. K.N. 
Jayatilleke
> translates a part of it in his _Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge_ 
p. 364
> as follows:
> 
> "the Exalted One preaches the conventional teaching to those who
are 
capable
> of listening to this conventional teaching and penetrating the 
meaning,
> discarding ignorance and acquiring eminence. But to those who are 
capable of
> listening to his absolute teaching and penetrating the truth, 
discarding
> ignorance and acquiring distinction, he preaches the absolute 
truth."
> -- AA i 94
> 
> Note: the above translation has some inconsistencies: penetrating 
the
> meaning/ truth [both 'attha']; eminence/distinction [both 'visesa'].
> 
> Jayatilleke comments: "We note that the penetration of the truth is 
possible
> by either teaching, conventional or absolute; it is like using the 
language
> a person readily understands and there is no implication that one 
language
> is superior to the other." -- p.365. He also notes how the view of 
modern
> orthodoxy differs from that of the comy., particularly regarding 
Ledi
> Sayadaw who says that a conventional truth is 'just an erroneous 
view'.
> 
> I think it will be readily accepted that the Suttantapitaka is 
dominated by
> the conventional teaching while the Abhidhammapitaka is dominated
by 
the
> absolute teaching, but both teachings can be found in either
pitaka. 
It is
> obvious to me that the Suttanta is the more popular of the two. I 
have noted
> that some adherents of the Suttanta teachings do not encourage or 
even warn
> against the study of the Abhidhamma (eg Ajahn Sumedho). There is 
also much
> doubt about the Buddha actually having taught the Abhidhamma, but 
the Pali
> commentaries make it quite clear that he did. Given the above, I 
think one
> could just stick with the suttas, if desired, without ever
venturing 
into
> the Abhidhamma. But for me I'm interested in learning from both.
> 
> With best wishes,
> Jim A.

 
2186 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 9:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] buddhadasa's view, as interpreted by santikaro bhikkhu

 
  -Dear Joe,

It looks like an important discussion but I found your
conversation with Santikaro a little hard to follow. If you
could put your ideas direct to us then we can comment directly
on them otherwise we are likely to be agreeing and disagreeing
with both of you at different times. For instance it seems
Santikaro was initially agreeing with  the abhidhamma: “This is
> reinforced by 
> the understanding, primarily in Abhidhamma, that there are 24
> kinds of
Ø	paccaya (conditions).” >>>
So it didn’t seem that he was implying that the Abhidhamma is
linear or mechanistic. Also Santikaro was right in noting the
different meanings of sankhara.

Ø	In the meantime, I think it is fair to give some comments on
my position (which in no way reflects on any other members of
this group) with regard to Venerable Buddhadasa’s teachings. I
have read a fair number of his books, although I haven’t looked
over them for many years . I find him to be a brilliant writer
whose interpretation of the Dhamma is in many aspects sound.
However, he  also steps outside of the Theravada tradition in
several areas. As Santikaro writes (admiringly)“ Ajarn
Buddhadasa strenuously disagrees w/ Buddhaghosa's commentarial
line (now the Theravada orthodoxy)”
While some see this as a sign of his exceptional understanding
of Dhamma, I prefer to rely on the ancient Theravada tradition
and am doubtful that teachers of this later part of the
Buddhasasana (This Buddhist era) have more insight than the
ancient ones. Buddhadasa is often critical of the Abhidhamma and
the commentaries but on what basis? In the end it is his own
opinion that he is following. The Visuddhimagga III64 writes
that a teacher ‘who knows the texts, guards the heritage, and
protects the tradition, will follow the teachers’(the elders)
opinion rather than his own.” Buddhaghosa did not make up his
own ideas - for the most part he was a compiler who referred to
the ancient commentaries some of which were in existence even at
the first council.
Here I am simply "laying my cards on the table" and am not
trying to stop discussion. In fact it could be that Buddhadasa 
was deliberately being controversial in the hopes of provoking
debate and discussion: if so we do him justice by bringing up
any delicate points. So, thank you Joe and let us go into this
more.
Robert

--- Joe Cummings  wrote: > Would anyone care to
comment on the following exchange which
> appeared 
> on the Buddhadasa egroup forum?
> 
> Joe Cummings wrote:
> 
> > Thanks very much for the excerpt from 'Mindfulness'. I found
> it very
> > elucidating in terms of the question I was asking earlier
> about
> > 'calming the formations' vis a vis Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's
> thought. If
> > your translation is reasonably accurate, then the Ven. Ajahn
> seems 
> to
> > be confirming the line I was suggesting previously, that
> sati must
> > arise before the formations arise in order for them to
> 'calm' or 
> stop
> > (i.e., not arise).
> 
> ### Santikaro: This is true in one meaning of the word
> SANKHARA, that 
> is, the meaning equivalent to the 4th khandha, more or less
> thinking 
> & emotions.
> 
>     However, SANKHARA has other applications, one of them very
> subtle.
> If one overlooks the different ways that some key Pali terms
> are used,
> the result will be a rigid system that loses the Buddha's
> skillful
> insight & flexibility.
> 
> > Hence once formations have arisen, sati observes and if
> pañña is
> > present, causality may be altered, but sati cannot affect a 
> formation
> > already conditioned by previous kamma or action. This
> accords with 
> the
> > tipitaka of course, ...
> 
> ### Santikaro: It does? The effects of "past kamma" is only
> sometimes 
> linear & mechanistic. The 3-fold distinction on how soon kamma
> bears 
> fruit allows for a lot of non-linear causality. This is
> reinforced by 
> the understanding, primarily in Abhidhamma, that there are 24
> kinds of
> paccaya (conditions).
> 
>     In short, the tradition often speaks of how the effects of
> "old
> kamma" can be influenced by "new kamma."
> 
>     If "sati cannot affect a formation already conditioned by
> previous
> kamma or action," where & how is that SANKHARA stored or
> somehow
> maintained in such an isolated condition? (Your assertion,
> btw, does 
> not fit w/ the best of recent neuro-biology.)
> 
> > and strengthens confidence in practice. So it appears
> obvious that
> > Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did not and would not endorse a view that
> the
> > formations could be 'calmed', ....
> 
> ### Santikaro: I am curious what you base such assumptions on.
> He 
> did, in fact, say that SANKHARA can be calmed. This is a
> well-known & 
> widely accepted idea in Theravada Buddhism, even among those
> who are 
> much more "orthodox" than us.
> 
>     It appears that your logic is leading you to various
> assumptions &
> that you expect Ajarn Buddhadasa to agree with you. I suggest
> you 
> review some of your assumptions & your understanding of key
> terms, 
> like SANKHARA.
> 
> > but rather that, as your translation reads:
> >
> > "Each day, we have many contacts with our six senses, [and]
> no 
> matter
> > what the number is, we must have mindfulness which will
> bring wisdom
> > in time. The defilement ( kilesa) and suffering (dukkha)
> will not
> > arise."
> >
> > Notice that he doesn't say that kilesa or dukkha, once
> arisen, can 
> be
> > altered by mindfulness or wisdom. It would seem that this
> Buddhadasa
> > Bhikkhu treatise ....
> 
> ### Santikaro: More like a single booklet transcribed from a
> talk.
> 
> > confirms that even constant sati cannot stop the results of
> previous
> > kamma, which will unfold according to the law of dependent 
> origination
> > as described by the Buddha himself.
> 
> ### Santikaro: You're putting words in his mouth. You have
> been 
> stressing a point
> that you have every right to believe in, if you wish, & that
> seems in
> accordance w/ orthodox Burmese teaching (Abhidhammist
> flavored).
> However, you are wrong in this assumption of what Tan Ajarn
> taught.
> 
>     Are you familiar w/ the Buddha's teaching of Dependent
> Co-origination? OR are you following the commentarial
> explanations of 
> it (3 lifetimes)? The latter is a rather forced interpretation
> of 
> what the Buddha is recorded to have said. The Suttas are open
> to 
> other readings & Ajarn Buddhadasa strenuously disagrees w/ 
> Buddhaghosa's commentarial line (now the Theravada orthodoxy)
> on some 
> key points, e.g., the meaning of SANKHARA.
> 
>     I regret that I am slow to publish good translations of
> Tan 
> Ajarn's understanding of these matters. SPMD is helping with
> some 
> short passages and I have some major stuff in the works, for
> those 
> who want to know Tan Ajarn's perspective. Please don't try to
> cram 
> him into the orthodox view.
> 
> -------------
> 
> I think it's pretty clear that I'm on shaky ground myself (as
> usual), 
> but what do you think of Santikaro's intimation that 
> the 'Abhidhammist' school is linear and mechanistic? Obviously
> you 
> wouldn't agree, but what's the counter?
> 
> 




 
2187 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2000 11:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  ---  wrote: 
>  all my 
> questions are with the intention to help me understand and
> remove 
> doubt while there is still time, while I am lucky enough to be
> in
> this life with a mind to do so.
> 
Dear veronica,
These are noble sentiments that we would all be fortunate to
have. I'm looking forward to more input from you.
Robert


 
2188 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 6:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Hi Michael O.,

>Jim,
>
>This is also a subject which has perplexed me, as you already know, which
>is why I am here, to see what the fuss is about. One sentence of your last
>here stands out as something I would like to get your understanding on.
>
>You say:  There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught
>the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did.
>
>Can you give us a few quotes of materials which have been suggestive to you
>that the conclusion that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha is
>justifiable? As an outsider what I have heard is that the Abhidhamma was
>taught by Sariputta after the Miracle of the Twins to the dwellers in the
>Tussita Realm. Is the real story different?
>
>Best Wishes!
>Michael Olds    California

As you have noted later, Robert gave some details as follows:

"The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa
deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could
grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his
students."

This agrees with the more detailed account (p.16) given in the
Nidaana-kathaa of the Atthasaalinii, the commentary on the Dhammasangani.
The title of the translation of the commentary is _The Expositor_ (PTS).
Here's an excerpt:

"Sariputta, generalissimo of the Law, went there [a sandalwood forest near
Anotatta Lake], served the Supreme Buddha, and sat aside. Then to him, the
Teacher gave the method saying, 'Sariputta, so much doctrine has been
shown.' Thus the giving of the method was to the chief disciple, who was
endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of
the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. . . . . Now
Sariputta having learnt the Law taught (by the Teacher) preached it to five
hundred bhikkhus, his own pupils." -- p. 20-1

Also, in the introductory verses there is written:

". . .That which the Spirit of spirits [devaatidevo]
Unto the spirits taught, he afterwards,
The Leader, told it all in form concise
To Sariputta Elder, when he waited
On the Sage at Anotatta lake. And what
The Elder heard, he brought to plains of earth
And taught it to the brethren. And they all
Remembered it. And when the Council met,
By the wise son [Ananda] of the Videhi Dame
It was again rehearsed." -- p.2

So there you have it!

Welcome to the list! I'm fairly new around here myself, having come on board
about a month ago. I was surprised to find you showing up here not too long
afterwards.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2189 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 7:21am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Thanks Jim,

I would appreciate anything more you turn up as time goes on that reinforces
your conviction that the Abhidhamma is the work of the Buddha.

One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are presented in what I
would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th hand. When we hear
Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he either heard this as it was
spoken or heard it repeated to him by the Buddha at a later time. What I
hear in these lines is "What I hear is that Ananda heard this was the
Buddha's word from Sariputta."

In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no incongruity with the
suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to show itself to
have been put into the public view under false pretences, it would not
reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those who perpetrated the
hoax, and one would need to exercise extra special scrutiny of every
proposition, comparing each line to the suttas, and, as such, would
constitute a monumental waste of time.

So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone else who
cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone place the
citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a citana? What is the
origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of a citana?
What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? Is the citana of the Past
or of the Present or of the Future? Is a citana the self? Does citana belong
to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an aspect of citana?

Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of Citanas
constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, and in-so-far-as
they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to the degree
one was attached to them?

Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we should be training
ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am citanas"; not to
think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas" or "citanas
are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true that as
seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release from citanas?

I am just asking. I would like to know. This is the essence of my inquiry
into the Abhidhamma. Not simply the inquiry concerning citanas, for sure,
but this is the pattern of my concern. I see in those who study the
Abhidhamma an obsession with Dhamma that is to my mind contrary to Dhamma. I
have joined this group to learn if this conception of mine is just a bias.
My questions are structured but not argumentative. I am sincere.


Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Anderson 
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi


Hi Michael O.,

>Jim,
>
>This is also a subject which has perplexed me, as you already know, which
>is why I am here, to see what the fuss is about. One sentence of your last
>here stands out as something I would like to get your understanding on.
>
>You say:  There is also much doubt about the Buddha actually having taught
>the Abhidhamma, but the Pali commentaries make it quite clear that he did.
>
>Can you give us a few quotes of materials which have been suggestive to you
>that the conclusion that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha is
>justifiable? As an outsider what I have heard is that the Abhidhamma was
>taught by Sariputta after the Miracle of the Twins to the dwellers in the
>Tussita Realm. Is the real story different?
>
>Best Wishes!
>Michael Olds    California

As you have noted later, Robert gave some details as follows:

"The Buddha taught the Abhidhamma originally in the tavitimsa
deva realm and passed the summaries on to Sariputta, who could
grasp the complete meaning and who passed these onto his
students."

This agrees with the more detailed account (p.16) given in the
Nidaana-kathaa of the Atthasaalinii, the commentary on the Dhammasangani.
The title of the translation of the commentary is _The Expositor_ (PTS).
Here's an excerpt:

"Sariputta, generalissimo of the Law, went there [a sandalwood forest near
Anotatta Lake], served the Supreme Buddha, and sat aside. Then to him, the
Teacher gave the method saying, 'Sariputta, so much doctrine has been
shown.' Thus the giving of the method was to the chief disciple, who was
endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of
the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. . . . . Now
Sariputta having learnt the Law taught (by the Teacher) preached it to five
hundred bhikkhus, his own pupils." -- p. 20-1

Also, in the introductory verses there is written:

". . .That which the Spirit of spirits [devaatidevo]
Unto the spirits taught, he afterwards,
The Leader, told it all in form concise
To Sariputta Elder, when he waited
On the Sage at Anotatta lake. And what
The Elder heard, he brought to plains of earth
And taught it to the brethren. And they all
Remembered it. And when the Council met,
By the wise son [Ananda] of the Videhi Dame
It was again rehearsed." -- p.2

So there you have it!

Welcome to the list! I'm fairly new around here myself, having come on board
about a month ago. I was surprised to find you showing up here not too long
afterwards.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2190 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 8:48am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Michael,
Where was the converstion about citana? I don't know this word;
is it the same as citta?
--- Michael Olds  wrote: > Thanks Jim,
> 
> > So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of
anyone
> else who
> cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone
> place the
> citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a
> citana? What is the
> origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of
> a citana?
Robert


 
 
2191 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 9:06am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Robert,
Yes, apologies, two ts. Spelling these words is always a problem for me as I
began with the strong belief that in a spoken tradition spelling was not
important. I can't see how to pronounce cita without two ts. I went back
into the previous posts and see one at the beginning of this discussion
2034. One or two in particular went into greater detail but at a level that
seemed to assume knowledge of the meaning of the word . . . that is, in
Abhidhamma terms. But for some reason I have forgotten how to move around
through the posts and I get stuck in one and can't go ahead or back and must
start over. I seem to remember an arrow that would move to the next post
which is now missing when I view the list online.



Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi


Dear Michael,
Where was the converstion about citana? I don't know this word;
is it the same as citta?
--- Michael Olds  wrote: > Thanks Jim,
>
> > So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of
anyone
> else who
> cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone
> place the
> citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a
> citana? What is the
> origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of
> a citana?
Robert


 
2192 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 11:19am
Subject: Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Michael,
I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced
cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right
Jim?
Definitions are fundamental; so thanks for your comments which
will be of interest to many.
Citta is a synonym for viññána, the aggregate (khanda) of
consciousness. The visuddhimagga XIV82 "The words viññána, citta
and mano are one in meaning". and "Whatever has the
characteristic of cognising should be understood, all taken
together as the consciousness aggregate"
For a fairly detailed introduction to citta that many of this
list are familiar with these links takes you to a study by Sujin
Boriharnwanaket (translated by Amara):
http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1-8.html
and http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch9-16.html

If you read over those and make comments it will be easy for
everyone to reference and follow the discussion.
In the meantime you wrote:
"Is a citana the self? Does
> citana belong
> to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an
> aspect of citana?"
The answer to all these is NO. No self in citta at all. No self
anywhere in any of the khandas.
> 
> Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of
> Citanas
> constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self,
> and in-so-far-as
> they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to
> the degree
> one was attached to them?

Yes I would indeed say that.
> 
> Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we
> should be training
> ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am
> citanas"; not to
> think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas"
> or "citanas
> are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true
> that as
> seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release
> from citanas?

There is right thinking (thinking rooted in kusala -
wholesomeness) and wrong thinking (thinking rooted in akusala).
In my early days (the bad old days) in Buddhism I soon saw that
anatta (not self) was pretty important. So I would tell myself
that there was no self. The thing is though that I didn't really
know what was not self- it was always, either in a gross or
subtle way ME who was thinking "there is no self".
You wrote <<"Would you say that it was true or not that as
seekers we
> should be training
> ourselves not to think about "citanas"">>
We need to consider what we have learned about Dhamma so it is
necessary sometimes to think about Citta. If is is done wisely
it supports direct understanding. 
However, before we can really understand anything as anatta
(not-self) we have to study deeply and directly the different
dhammas (realities) as they arise in the present moment.
Otherwise we will always stay at an intellectual level where we
may correctly think that citta and other khandas are not-self,
not mine, etc. but this level is not sufficient to properly
penetrate dhammas and eradicate the latent tendency (anusaya) of
ditthi (view). Citta is arising every moment but it is hard to
properly understand its true nature.
Robert
> 

--- Michael Olds  wrote: > Thanks Jim,
> 
> I would appreciate anything more you turn up as time goes on
> that reinforces
> your conviction that the Abhidhamma is the work of the Buddha.
> 
> One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are
> presented in what I
> would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th hand.
> When we hear
> Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he either heard
> this as it was
> spoken or heard it repeated to him by the Buddha at a later
> time. What I
> hear in these lines is "What I hear is that Ananda heard this
> was the
> Buddha's word from Sariputta."
> 
> In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no
> incongruity with the
> suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to
> show itself to
> have been put into the public view under false pretences, it
> would not
> reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those who
> perpetrated the
> hoax, and one would need to exercise extra special scrutiny of
> every
> proposition, comparing each line to the suttas, and, as such,
> would
> constitute a monumental waste of time.
> 
> So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone
> else who
> cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone
> place the
> citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a
> citana? What is the
> origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of
> a citana?
> What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? Is the
> citana of the Past
> or of the Present or of the Future? Is a citana the self? Does
> citana belong
> to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an
> aspect of citana?
> 
> Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of
> Citanas
> constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self,
> and in-so-far-as
> they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to
> the degree
> one was attached to them?
> 
> Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we
> should be training
> ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am
> citanas"; not to
> think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas"
> or "citanas
> are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true
> that as
> seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release
> from citanas?
> 
> I am just asking. I would like to know. This is the essence of
> my inquiry
> into the Abhidhamma. Not simply the inquiry concerning
> citanas, for sure,
> but this is the pattern of my concern. I see in those who
> study the
> Abhidhamma an obsession with Dhamma that is to my mind
> contrary to Dhamma. I
> have joined this group to learn if this conception of mine is
> just a bias.
> My questions are structured but not argumentative. I am
> sincere.
> 
> 
> Best Wishes!
> Michael Olds    California
> > www.BuddhaDust.org
> ICQ#94992160
> 


 
2193 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 0:06pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Robert, I want to thank you immediately because obviously your reply is
going to require some homework and thought before I can respond. So, thank
you, this effort is much appreciated. . .big smile here, I know you knew
this was coming . . .but just let me tell you where my doubting mind has
immediately focused: On this business of needing to "think about" in order
to see not-self, and this breaking this thinking up into right thinking (I
would say "high" thinking sidebar: sammaa does mean right, in the sense
carpenters used it of at a right angle, or straight up, or straight; but the
word has lost most of that to our ears, and what we hear is "the only way"
all other ways are wrong, and this is contrary to the meaning, which is best
translated, but awkwardly as "consummate", or the highest, best. So my
high.) and "wrong thinking" (which translation is the result of wrong
thinking about sammaa, and which is not a good translation for micchaa which
is simply anything contrary to or in opposition to anything else). And,
since we did go over this ma~n~nati thing and have been made to understand
that as <Trainees> we should be training ourselves "Not to Think About", I
see some place here where some bridge building is going to be needed.

My actual, real-life experience tells me that what you describe is not the
way it works. I have experienced both directions in depth. The first is the
contrary way, this way of "thinking about". My experience is with modern
psychiatry where clearly focusing on one's problems is something that the
mind delights in; delighting in it, it goes out to recreate those problems;
problems get worse in this case and there is no amount of analysis or
insight into those problems which eliminates those problems, Freud and the
American Psychiatric Association notwithstanding. What it takes to eliminate
problems is behavior that does not cause problems. That's the first view,
which leads to the second view:

The second view is sit down meditation and the particular saying of the
Buddha which is called "Resolve" which I have used as a guide to my
meditation practice since I first came across it: "May I sit down here in
this cross legged position and not rise up again, though flesh wither away,
until I have achieved what a man can achieve." (Here it is:
http://www.buddhadust.org/ThePaliLine/The10thQuestion_2.htm#Resolve )
My actual practice experience tells me that sit down meditation, if done by
abandoning any willful act of mind (and here you do not need to get subtle
to get way up there, you just need to notice if a "train of thought" has
arisen, and if it has you let it go), speech or body whatsoever is like
putting up a sail in a high wind. It will take you right up. From UP you can
see all you want. It's not a matter of thinking.

This is just my immediate impression. I will now go study my homework!

Again thanks!

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 7:20 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma
Ditthi


Dear Michael,
I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced
cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right
Jim?
Definitions are fundamental; so thanks for your comments which
will be of interest to many.
Citta is a synonym for viññána, the aggregate (khanda) of
consciousness. The visuddhimagga XIV82 "The words viññána, citta
and mano are one in meaning". and "Whatever has the
characteristic of cognising should be understood, all taken
together as the consciousness aggregate"
For a fairly detailed introduction to citta that many of this
list are familiar with these links takes you to a study by Sujin
Boriharnwanaket (translated by Amara):
http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch1-8.html
and http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat2ch9-16.html

If you read over those and make comments it will be easy for
everyone to reference and follow the discussion.
In the meantime you wrote:
"Is a citana the self? Does
> citana belong
> to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an
> aspect of citana?"
The answer to all these is NO. No self in citta at all. No self
anywhere in any of the khandas.
>
> Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of
> Citanas
> constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self,
> and in-so-far-as
> they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to
> the degree
> one was attached to them?

Yes I would indeed say that.
>
> Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we
> should be training
> ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am
> citanas"; not to
> think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas"
> or "citanas
> are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true
> that as
> seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release
> from citanas?

There is right thinking (thinking rooted in kusala -
wholesomeness) and wrong thinking (thinking rooted in akusala).
In my early days (the bad old days) in Buddhism I soon saw that
anatta (not self) was pretty important. So I would tell myself
that there was no self. The thing is though that I didn't really
know what was not self- it was always, either in a gross or
subtle way ME who was thinking "there is no self".
You wrote <<"Would you say that it was true or not that as
seekers we
> should be training
> ourselves not to think about "citanas"">>
We need to consider what we have learned about Dhamma so it is
necessary sometimes to think about Citta. If is is done wisely
it supports direct understanding.
However, before we can really understand anything as anatta
(not-self) we have to study deeply and directly the different
dhammas (realities) as they arise in the present moment.
Otherwise we will always stay at an intellectual level where we
may correctly think that citta and other khandas are not-self,
not mine, etc. but this level is not sufficient to properly
penetrate dhammas and eradicate the latent tendency (anusaya) of
ditthi (view). Citta is arising every moment but it is hard to
properly understand its true nature.
Robert
>




 
2194 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 1:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Robert,

>Dear Michael,
>I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced
>cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right
>Jim?

That seems okay to me. Personally, I pronounce the 'i' as in 'hit' or 'it'.
But the shortened form of the long 'i' makes more sense. The division into
syllables is cit-ta, each 't' should be pronounced. I thought Michael's
original spelling 'citana' stood for 'cetana'. The Dhammasangani lists the
following synonyms for 'citta': mano maanasa.m hadaya.m pa.n.dara.m
manaayatana.m manindriya.m vi~n~naa.na.m vi~n~naa.nakkhandho
manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu.

Jim A.

 
2195 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 1:56pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Well, Jim, what is really going on is I am having two conversations at once,
and one of them IS about Cetanaa. How about considering that I asked the
same series of questions about that? I have a hard time (a very hard time)
catching the distinction between the two in spite of the dictionary. What
the heck is an "active" thought? I just don't see the physics this way.
Any light you can throw on it would be welcome. That said, I retreat into
the structure of my question(s) as the basis of my inquiry into what is
going on in the study of the Abhidhamma whatever the meaning of whatever
word.

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Anderson 
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request --
Samma Ditthi


Robert,

>Dear Michael,
>I know what you mean about the pronunciation! Citta - pronounced
>cheetta (cheet as in cheat but spoken faster). Is that right
>Jim?

That seems okay to me. Personally, I pronounce the 'i' as in 'hit' or 'it'.
But the shortened form of the long 'i' makes more sense. The division into
syllables is cit-ta, each 't' should be pronounced. I thought Michael's
original spelling 'citana' stood for 'cetana'. The Dhammasangani lists the
following synonyms for 'citta': mano maanasa.m hadaya.m pa.n.dara.m
manaayatana.m manindriya.m vi~n~naa.na.m vi~n~naa.nakkhandho
manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu.

Jim A.

 
2196 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 5:27pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Michael (MO),

First of all, welcome (belatedly) to the discussion group, and
anumoddhana for your efforts for finding the truth and getting to the
bottom of it despite your suspicion and doubt about the origin of
abhidhamma.  I think this is what the buddha has taught: only by
knowing the truth as it is can one be freed of kilesa and samsara
(rebirth cycles).  

I would like to add to the active discussions that you are currently
leading.  I am not by anyway addressing all the questions that you
have, but would like to add some bits as foods for thought.

Buddha taught about realities as they truly are.  Even without him, the
realities exist as they are.  So ultimately, when someone teaches about
the truth (the four noble truths), they are teaching what Buddha
taught.  This is regardless of where the teaching comes from, the
vinayana, the sutta, the abhidhamma, the atthagatha, and from other
sources.   The question then becomes: without knowing about the truth,
how do we know who is speaking the truth.  What is the authenticity of
each source?

The Theravada tradition is obviously holding the tipitika as the most
authentic source of the truth, holding that the teachings come directly
from the Buddha himself.  Now, as you and other people have mentioned,
there are controversies about some sections of the tipitika, as well as
the commentaries added on to it.  Logically, don't we have some doubts
here about the ENTIRE tipitika itself?  Do you believe that one man can
remember, accurately, 82,000 different teachings as heard from the
Buddha and the Buddha's disciples?  Do you believe that after a few
hundred years of oral transmission of teachings, that the teachings
were written down accurately as the Buddha himself had taught?  Are
there any rigorous verifications of the different sources (as you might
see in bible studies) and are those verifications enough to ensure the
truth?

I think the answer lies in the fact that the truth is provable, in
every single moment of our life.  I think we are all in agreement here
that the core teachings in the tipitika are provable truth, at least to
oneself.  The problem then becomes, how do we know when the truth
appears to us, that it is the truth, and it is not just our delusion
about the truth.  I notice that I certainly have the liking of the
moment when I think I discover the truth.  Because of that, I sometimes
hold on to the idea as being the truth just because it makes sense, and
I like the idea.  

So, the advice that I have for myself is that, the best I can possibly
do, is to learn about the provable truth as much as I can, look for the
consistency and inconsistency, and see it for myself if they make any
sense, if the truth as taught appears as the truth as experienced. 
There is a sutta about the four great references (4 mahapradesh?) that
regardless of where the teaching comes from, we need to always
cross-reference with somewhere else.  It is not a waste of time: in
fact, it is the only way to come closer to the truth without knowing
the truth ourself.

Why do we need to understand (and think about it as it truly is) the
truth as it is before we can know what it truly is?  This is because
when the truth appears, it will be known as such and not otherwise. 
Not knowing the truth, we will undoubtedly mistake the truth as
nontruth, as the nontruth as truth.  Hence, learning about the truth is
the pre-requisite to developing the knowledge about truth.  Without it,
we will be only lost in the non-truth even if sometimes we may
experience the truth.

> Can someone place the citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? 
As Robert has mentioned, citta is vinnanakhanndas

> What is a citana? 
Citta is the element that is the chief in cognizing an object. 
Although the conascent cetasikas also cognizes the same object, their
functions differ from the citta in that citta's only and chief function
is to cognize the object.

> What  is the origin of a citana? 
As any sankharadhamma, when there are conditions causing the element to
arise, it will arise.  I believe Buddha explicitly refused to answer
the question about the original arising of citta in the rebirth cycles,
as it does not aid in learning about the truth.

>What sustains a citana? What is the end of a 
>citana?
>What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? 
AS any sankharadhamma, when there is no condition for the element to
arise, it does not arise.  In the case of citta, there is no citta
following cuti citta of the arahat as there is no more condition for
the next citta to arise.

>Is the citana of the 
>Past
>or of the Present or of the Future? 
As citta rises and falls, a particular citta can be classified into
past, present, and future.

>Is a citana the self? Does citana 
>belong
>to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an aspect of 
>citana?
There is no self in all realities (abhidhammas).

>experience is with 
>modern
>psychiatry where clearly focusing on one's problems is something that 
>the
>mind delights in; delighting in it, it goes out to recreate those 
>problems;
My conditions that could have use psychological help in the past has
been mostly attachments to the non-truth.  Our cittas are experts at
cognizing the non-truth: learning about the non-truth doesn't help
anybody.  Our suffering can be only eliminated by learning about the
truth.

>The second view is sit down meditation and the particular saying of
the
>Buddha which is called "Resolve" which I have used as a guide to my
My observation in this area is that Buddha knows the accumulations of
his pupils and can teach a pupil exactly as the pupil needs to
progress: he has the ability to teach the most efficient way that the
pupil can progress.  However, he did not teach everybody the same way. 
Not every ariya disciple becomes enlightened in that way.  Are you sure
you have the accumultations to progress in learning the truth in that
manner?

>I have a hard time (a very hard 
>time)
>catching the distinction between the two in spite of the dictionary. 
The citta is briefly described above.  Cetana is a cetasikas, a
sankhara khanndas, arising with all cittas.  The
most-readily-understandable interpretation is "intention".  When we
intend to do something (kill, lie, give, keep sila, etc.), there is
intention at work.

I hope this adds to the number of worms that are already crawling
around.

kom



 
2197 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 8:06pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Michael,
Just some brief comments.
--- Michael Olds  wrote: > Robert, I want
to thank you immediately because obviously your
> reply is
> going to require some homework and thought before I can
> respond. So, thank

 Glad to hear that this list is causing some consideration 

 . .big smile here, I
> know you knew
> this was coming . 
.
Yep, I figured you would be an active member and that is great.
It may be that we never come to agree on all matters pertaining
to Dhamma but I have a feeling we see, or will see, a sizeable
portion in much the same light. Not necessary that we have to
agree about everything; what we should do though is clearly
explain our interpretations so that we and anyone listening can
fully understand our positions. Hopefully we all learn something
that improves our understanding of Dhamma.

 .but just let me tell you where my
> doubting mind has
> immediately focused: On this business of needing to "think
> about" in order
> to see not-self, and this breaking this thinking up into right
> thinking 

Were you thinking about Dhamma when you composed this reply? Do
you think about Dhamma when you study the suttas? There are so
many levels of understanding but if there has never been
consideration of the Dhamma - and that is thinking - then 
higher levels cannot arise. Imagine telling someone to sit and
meditate but never teaching them any Dhamma- what could they
understand?

Certainly if we believe that thinking about dhammas is the same
as directly experiencing them then that is a delusion which must
obstruct direct insight. The moments of direct insight are not a
matter of thinking in words -for instance if understanding
vedana as vedana (feeling as feeling)there is simply
sati-sampajanna (mindfulness and clear comprehension)for those
brief moments. 
However, I would suggest that if we believe thinking must
obstruct insight into dhammas then that shows that one does not
see that "thinking" is simply different namas (mental phenomena)
including citta(consciousness) and cetana(volition) arising
because they are conditioned to arise. If we wish to stop
thinking isn't that moving away from that very moment when
thinking arises? Why not be aware of any moment just as it is.
You see there can be direct awareness even while thinking. Panna
(wisdom) slips in and insights any of the many paramattha
dhammas(realities) that are always arising.  This happens very
quickly.
This is one of the differences between samattha and satipatthana
vipassana. 
Robert


 
2198 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 8:49pm
Subject: Welcomes & Bkk update

 
  Hi Veronica & dhd5,

A late welcome from me to the list too and glad to see
you both posting. Veronica, you asked a good question
about studying the abhidhamma and we look forward to
hearing more from you both. Veronica, i assume you
study the Zen teachings as well as the original
Tipitaka?

Dear Group,

We're in Bangkok and had a good discussion today with
Khun Sujin and many old friends like Nina Van Gorkom
and her husband and also some members from this list
I'd not met before such as the group that have come
over from California to join our trip to Cambodia and
Betty.

We're off to Pnom Penh tomorrow (about 50 of us) and
will meet some serious Buddhist students and teachers
there who are able to listen to Khun Sujin's Thai
radio programme.

I'm delighted to see all the excellent posts in our
absence....this is a quick visit to our hotel's
business centre. We look forward to reading the posts
on the flight.

Best rgds for now,
Sarah

p.s. Michael J and Sukin, sorry not to have met you
this w'end. Do hope you can get to at least one of the
English discussions next weekend. (See Amara's 2nd
post titled 'Schedules' for details of this). The day
at Ell's house on the Monday will also be very
pleasant if you're free.



 
2199 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 10:11pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are presented 
in what I
> would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th hand. When we 
hear
> Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he either heard this 
as it was
> spoken or heard it repeated to him by the Buddha at a later time. 
What I
> hear in these lines is "What I hear is that Ananda heard this was 
the
> Buddha's word from Sariputta."


Dear MO,

Evam me sutam means this is what I heard, it does not specify whether 
it is second, third or fourth hand.  In fact several suttas are 
recounted as accounts heard from another party to whom that event was 
told by one of the original participants.  And the Buddhist teachings 
were first passed on by rote, several hundred arahanta recited exactly 
the same words without deviation, since there were no self or mana of 
any degree in the persons concerned, their memories were not like 
anything anyone thick with the self and kilesa could understand or 
imagine.  It is not like the Bible where the apostles, however few 
they were in the New Testament, for example, each told different 
details about the birth of Christ, etc.  Here every syllable was the 
same.  Whether the teachings are true has to be proven by the 
individual and their accumulations, what remains universal is that 
each being has eyes, ears, noses, tongues, bodysense and mind, and 
that is what the Buddha taught about that no other religion does.  
Whether he talked about them or not theses realities exist and whether 
we live in ignorance taking them for the self some God created or know 
them as they really are, realities that are impermanent that should 
not be taken for the self depends very much on the individual's 
accumulations.


> In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no incongruity with 
the
> suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to show 
itself to
> have been put into the public view under false pretences, it would 
not
> reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those who perpetrated 
the
> hoax, and one would need to exercise extra special scrutiny of every
> proposition, comparing each line to the suttas, and, as such, would
> constitute a monumental waste of time.


I am sure that if you could prove that this were true you would not be 
asking any questions here.


> So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone else 
who
> cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone place 
the
> citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a citana? 
What is the
> origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of a 
citana?
> What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? Is the citana of 
the Past
> or of the Present or of the Future? Is a citana the self? Does 
citana belong
> to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an aspect of 
citana?


As Robert said, citanas do not exist.  The citta is vinnana khandha.  
The cetana cetasika is sankhara khandha.  You take both for the self, 
plus a lot of other realities, because of ignorance.


> Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of 
Citanas
> constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, and 
in-so-far-as
> they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to the 
degree
> one was attached to them?
> 
> Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we should be 
training
> ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am citanas"; 
not to
> think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of citanas" or 
"citanas
> are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is not true that 
as
> seekers this should be our practice, then what is the release from 
citanas?
> 
> I am just asking. I would like to know. This is the essence of my 
inquiry
> into the Abhidhamma. Not simply the inquiry concerning citanas, for 
sure,
> but this is the pattern of my concern. I see in those who study the
> Abhidhamma an obsession with Dhamma that is to my mind contrary to 
Dhamma. I
> have joined this group to learn if this conception of mine is just a 
bias.
> My questions are structured but not argumentative. I am sincere.


I would suggest that you read the book Summary of Paramatthadhamma in 
the advanced section of <http://dhammastudy.com/> for more precise 
terminology on which to base our discussions and perhaps a more solid 
understanding of the abhidhamma, then if you have any more questions 
we could discuss them more clearly.

Anumodana in your sincere interest,

Amara

 
2201 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 3, 2000 10:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 213

 
  Dear betty,
thanks for the message and good to have your participation. Glad
to hear you met with Nina and sarah and Jon and others. Look
forward to any bits you can pass on from the discussions now
happening in bangkok and cambodia.
One little technical point. This last post included all the
other posts for the day, a total of 60somethingb or whatever.
Could you chop off any non relevant stuff before posting.
Thanks
robert


 
2202 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 2:33am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Robert,

You first in that my dialog with you began first:

RK: . . . I have a feeling we see, or will see, a sizeable
portion in much the same light. Not necessary that we have to agree about
everything; what we should do though is clearly explain our interpretations
so that we and anyone listening can fully understand our positions.
Hopefully we all learn something that improves our understanding of Dhamma.

MO: I have been discussing the dhamma with people since the early sixties. I
have always found that putting myself out there and taking the battering
that usually resulted was one of the most effective learning tools for me. I
look to the suttas and how most of them came to be as my model. Debate in
the old days was a lively art.

The problem, as I see it is that there are one or two key concepts which if
taken in the wrong way can alter one’s entire understanding of the Dhamma. I
cit-a um . . . Letting Go for one. If one does not grasp the idea that the
key to the entire structure is letting go, [sammaa Sankappa #1: nekkhamma]
then the purpose of every other teaching is lost. So my response to this is:
Agree on anything or not, I wish you nothing but the best, but the key for
me is seeing a few things correctly whether or not anyone agrees with me.

MO: . . .but just let me tell you where my doubting mind has immediately
focused: On this business of needing to "think about" in order to see
not-self, and this breaking this thinking up into right
Thinking [and wrong thinking]

RK: Were you thinking about Dhamma when you composed this reply? Do
you think about Dhamma when you study the suttas? There are so
many levels of understanding but if there has never been
consideration of the Dhamma - and that is thinking - then
higher levels cannot arise. Imagine telling someone to sit and
meditate but never teaching them any Dhamma- what could they
understand?

MO: It is possible for an individual who has never heard the Dhamma to
attain the goal by careful observation. This is the condition of the Buddha,
this is the condition of “Silent” Buddhas. Putting those to one side as
being the case for beings of extraordinary determination; for the rest
hearing [what we can conclude is essential key concepts of] the Dhamma is
needed. We do have the case of individuals who have heard extremely little
of the Dhamma who have grasped it’s meaning. That this must be the case is
dictated by simple logistics: most people in the Buddha’s day will have
heard no more than one sutta (pick one). There was no writing in the general
population. Not everyone could follow the Buddha around. If you examine the
suttas you will notice that even broken into parts they almost always hold
up as complete “Dhammas” in the sense of having the essential ingredients in
them to lead an energetic, determined individual to the goal. I recall one
case where a Bhikkhu was taught only that “whatever it is, if it has
anything to do with Tanha, know that to be Not-Dhamma.”

My point in terms of studying the dhamma is that this study must be aimed
correctly. If we are going to be “thinking about” then we should approach
this thinking about as a matter of comprehending that which will most
readily facilitate letting go. Thinking should be done expeditiously. Study
dhamma to grasp the basic idea of dhamma – for this you will not find any
better vehicle than the Four Truths. “He who grasps the Four Truths Grasps
Dependent Origination.” Study Dhamma with the idea that by studying Dhamma
you are not making trouble for yourself elsewhere. Study Dhamma to develop
focus of mind so that when you have achieved Vision you will be able to see
what you see, not because studying dhamma will bring about vision. If you
study dhamma because you think that by understanding the detailed meaning of
each of its constituent parts in detail you will have in any way advanced
your progress toward freedom over and above what you could have got from the
Four Truths and you are doomed.

RK: Certainly if we believe that thinking about dhammas is the same
as directly experiencing them then that is a delusion which must
obstruct direct insight.

MO: Agreed – I believe this is the point I was making above in different
words.

RK:  The moments of direct insight are not a matter of thinking in
words -for instance if understanding vedana as vedana (feeling as
feeling)there is simply sati-sampajanna (mindfulness and clear
comprehension)for those brief moments.

MO: Here I see the first building block of a misunderstanding of the
Satipatthana: that Insight is it’s goal. We all study the words between the
refrains of the Satipatthana; few of us notice the refrain that ends each
section:

. . . thus he lives without self, downbound to nothing at all in the world.

Insight too is a passing phenomena. Insight if grasped incorrectly, as the
gain of some “right” view, is just leaping from one bound up condition to
another. It becomes an intellectual phenomena. Without “letting go” as the
guiding principle behind one’s effort, insight is useless.

RK: However, I would suggest that if we believe thinking must obstruct
insight into dhammas then that shows that one does not see that thinking" is
simply different namas (mental phenomena)including citta(consciousness) and
cetana(volition) arising because they are conditioned to arise.

MO: First I see thinking as obstructing insight into Dhammas; and second I
do not see how thinking this way shows that one does not see that thinking
is simply different namas. While one is thinking one is certainly not seeing
the rise and fall of mental phenomena. “Thinking” almost by definition, is
identification of “Self” with these cittas and cetanas.


RK: If we wish to stop thinking isn't that moving away from that very moment
when thinking arises?

MO: We do not “wish” to stop thinking. We train ourselves not to think
about. Thoughts arise, but not to “us.” They are not “our” thoughts.

RK: Why not be aware of any moment just as it is. You see there can be
direct awareness even while thinking.

MO: If you were to say this like this: “There can be direct awareness while
thoughts are rising and falling.” I would agree.

RK: Panna (wisdom) slips in and insights any of the many paramattha
dhammas(realities) that are always arising.

MO: This may be an Abhidhamma thing: the word “realities” has implications
of realness. To hold that any phenomena has realness is to hold the ditthi:
“it is”. My reading: PARAMATTHA = PARA pas around up overa sun – um; ATTHA
attaining; DHAMMA thing. To avoid the problems associated with “ultimate
realities” I would go with something like “fundamental phenomena.”

MO: I am not sure about this “insighting” that Panna does. I don’t see
pa~n~na out there busy doing anything that isn’t conditioned by the prior
preparation of the individual in his letting go of low views.

RK: This happens very quickly. This is one of the differences between
samattha and satipatthana vipassana.

MO: That these phenomena are occurring at an incredible speed is not in
question to my mind. The question is: to what degree is it necessary to
think about it to know how the details of it work in order to be able to see
that identification with it is the recipe for a bad end, and that therefore
it should be let go.

When I hear people comparing “samattha” and “satipatthana” vipassana, what I
am hearing is the discussion of the points of view of certain schools of
Buddhist thought. In my reading I see the satipatthana sutta as encompassing
both samattha and vipassana, and my tendency is to go with the sutta and
forget about the schools. I believe up past the learning of the theory of
how the system works, the proper practice as described in the suttas is to
develop samattha and vipassana equally.

Just let me conclude by restating my original thought: whether we agree
completely or only on a point or two or not at all, I have nothing but the
greatest respect, admiration, and affection for you and the others in the
community in that you are all doing something that I see is extraordinary
and rare in this effort to get to the bottom of things.

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

 
2203 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 4:41am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Kom:

Next!

Thank you for your welcome, and thank you again for taking the time and
effort to produce a well-thought-out and articulate document.

KT: Buddha taught about realities as they truly are.  Even without him, the
realities exist as they are.  So ultimately, when someone teaches about the
truth (the four noble truths), they are teaching what Buddha
taught.  This is regardless of where the teaching comes from, the
vinayana, the sutta, the abhidhamma, the atthagatha, and from other
sources.

MO: I completely agree with this and I stated as much in my original post.

KT: The question then becomes: without knowing about the truth,
how do we know who is speaking the truth.  What is the authenticity of
each source?

The Theravada tradition is obviously holding the tipitika as the most
authentic source of the truth, holding that the teachings come directly
from the Buddha himself.  Now, as you and other people have mentioned,
there are controversies about some sections of the tipitika, as well as
the commentaries added on to it.  Logically, don't we have some doubts
here about the ENTIRE tipitika itself?

MO: This much doubt is in fact healthy and is an aspect of learning
recommended by the Buddha in his instructions to test the truth.

KT: Do you believe that one man can remember, accurately, 82,000 different
teachings as heard from the Buddha and the Buddha's disciples?

MO: Absolutely. As Jim mentioned in a previous post, and as I know for
myself, there are Bhikkhus out there even today that hold the complete Sutta
Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka in memory. Think about it: eliminate your need to
hunt for food, shelter, clothing, and medicine; eliminate computers, TV,
Radio, and Books and Other writings; eliminate pursuit of sexual pleasure
and how much of your mind to you see is freed up for retaining suttas in
memory? Add to that the extraordinary uniformity in the Pali of both word
and idea throughout the entirety of the Sutta and Vinaya pitakas and you
have a document that has a quality which works greatly towards its accurate
retention over time: self correction through redundancy. [Look at the idea
of “compression” used for saving space when transmitting images over the
computer as an example of how redundancy can be used to advantage.]

KT: Do you believe that after a few hundred years of oral transmission of
teachings, that the teachings were written down accurately as the Buddha
himself had taught?

MO: This argument is made moot by your earlier argument that if what is
taught is the truth, it is what the Buddha taught.

The first thing one needs to do in this case is to ask one’s self what it is
that one is, one’s self, attempting to gain from studying this Dhamma. Then
one needs to examine the claims made by the various teachers out there. Then
one needs to examine the method suggested for accomplishing the goal. Then
one needs to follow that method. If that method accomplishes the stated
goal, then one can ask no more. Asking more one could ask if the Entire
teaching of this teacher who has taught something that does accomplish that
goal also is consistent with that part of that teaching that does accomplish
that goal. If it does, it doesn’t matter if the words are exactly those of
the original teacher or not. But in the case of This System, comprehending
the difficulty of the goal and the uniqueness in the world of it’s method,
we would necessarily have to come to the conclusion (having had all the
above experiences) that what we have in front of us in the Suttas is in fact
the word of the Buddha . . . or, if it isn’t, then the words we have in
front of us in the Suttas and Vinaya ARE the Buddha.

“He who sees the Four Truths, Beggars, sees Dependant Origination; he who
sees Dependant Origination sees Dhamma; he who sees Dhamma sees me.”

Finally: A few hundred years of oral transmission is only five or so
generations, many of those will have overlapped, allowing the older
generation to correct the younger. Given the freedom of mind I described
concerning the things of the world, it seems entirely plausible to me that
an oral tradition could have preserved largely intact, a document such as we
have in the Suttas.

But further, we have evidence in the Vinaya, in the case of the Brahmans who
wished to translate the suttas into Vedic that writing was in fact in
existence at the time. I argue that those of weak minds then would have
found the idea of writing down the dhamma irresistible. That we have no
evidence that this was the case doesn’t matter. This is an issue that will
never be resolved in a way provable to those without the Eye of Dhamma.

KT: Are there any rigorous verifications of the different sources (as you
might see in bible studies) and are those verifications enough to ensure the
truth?

MO: I thought that was what this Abhidhamma and Commentaries thing was all
about.

KT: I think the answer lies in the fact that the truth is provable, in
every single moment of our life.  I think we are all in agreement here
that the core teachings in the tipitika are provable truth, at least to
oneself.

MO: Complete agreement.

KT: The problem then becomes, how do we know when the truth appears to us,
that it is the truth, and it is not just our delusion about the truth.  I
notice that I certainly have the liking of the moment when I think I
discover the truth.  Because of that, I sometimes hold on to the idea as
being the truth just because it makes sense, and I like the idea.

So, the advice that I have for myself is that, the best I can possibly
do, is to learn about the provable truth as much as I can, look for the
consistency and inconsistency, and see it for myself if they make any
sense, if the truth as taught appears as the truth as experienced.

MO: Excellent technique. So the question is: If the Abhidhamma is the
superior dhamma (although, a hum, not in any way meaning to denigrate the
suttas), and all of the schools of Buddhism out there acknowledge at least
the suttas and Vinaya as authentic whereas there is differing opinion about
the Abhidhamma, would it not prove to be a wiser technique to begin with the
more fundamental dhamma and progress on through it to the point where it is
mastered?

Have you mastered the lesser Dhamma of the Suttas? I am not asking you to
respond. I am asking you if you have asked yourself this question.

But this is the heart of your question: The Truth, so called, is not
something you “get.” The Truth is what is left when you get rid of Low
Views. The evaluation is not “Do I have the Truth?” it is: “Do I have any
Low Views left?” Is there anything there that I regard as Me or Mine? Is
there anything there that, if it changed by death or injury or some other
calamity would cause me grief and lamentation? Is there anything there that
I still hold to be “real” or to have an ultimate existence or no existence
at all?, is there anything there that I hold to be “The One True way of
seeing things and all other ways are false.”

KT: There is a sutta about the four great references (4 mahapradesh?) that
regardless of where the teaching comes from, we need to always
cross-reference with somewhere else.  It is not a waste of time: in
fact, it is the only way to come closer to the truth without knowing
the truth our self.

MO: I believe this technique is described in the Vinaya, and is worded:
Check Sutta with Sutta and Vinaya with Vinaya. This is to eliminate those
places where there is inconsistency. Work with those places where there is
internal consistency. Again, I don’t think the idea here is that one should,
just because there is consistency, accept the truth of the thing without
testing.

KT: Why do we need to understand (and think about it as it truly is) the
truth as it is before we can know what it truly is?  This is because when
the truth appears, it will be known as such and not otherwise.  Not knowing
the truth, we will undoubtedly mistake the truth as non-truth, and the
non-truth as truth.  Hence, learning about the truth is the pre-requisite to
developing the knowledge about truth.  Without it, we will be only lost in
the non-truth even if sometimes we may experience the truth.

MO: Well here I can only partly agree. As I mentioned in my reply to Robert,
there is the case of determining the truth without prior contact with the
dhamma. And see my answer just above for determining “The Truth.”

My issue is: When the Truth can be found in the Four Truths, and No Truth is
Higher than these Truths, And these truths encompass all the other Truths of
this system, at what point does studying the Dhamma contradict those truths:
That to end DUKKHA one must end Thirst – and that includes Thirst for Dhamma
knowledge.

MO: Can someone place the citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas?

KT: As Robert has mentioned, citta is vinnanakhanndas

Thank you.

MO: What is a citana?

KT: Citta is the element that is the chief in cognizing an object.
Although the conascent cetasikas also cognizes the same object, their
functions differ from the citta in that citta's only and chief function
is to cognize the object.

MO: So we are talking about divisions in the “consciousness element” here?
One of the Six Great Elements.

MO: What is the origin of a citana?

KT: As any sankharadhamma, when there are conditions causing the element to
arise, it will arise.  I believe Buddha explicitly refused to answer the
question about the original arising of citta in the rebirth cycles, as it
does not aid in learning about the truth.

MO: I do not need to know about the original arising of citta; but in fact
when pressed he does say that it is TANHA.

What I am asking is what are the conditions that cause it to arise?

MO: What sustains a citana? What is the end of a citana? What is the way
that leads to the end of a citana?

KT: AS any sankharadhamma, when there is no condition for the element to
arise, it does not arise.  In the case of citta, there is no citta
following cuti citta of the arahat as there is no more condition for
the next citta to arise.

MO: None of this addresses my questions.

MO: Is the citana of the Past or of the Present or of the Future?

KT: As citta rises and falls, a particular citta can be classified into
past, present, and future.

MO: But you have said that cittas are conditioned. If cittas are
conditioned, how can they be anything but of the Past? And has not the
Buddha said: The Eye, Beggars, is of the Past. That which is of the Past,
put it away. Putting it away will be for your good and benefit for many a
long day.

MO: Is a citana the self? Does citana belong to the self? Is citana derived
of the self? Is the self an aspect of citana?

KT: There is no self in all realities (abhidhammas).

MO: Accepting with qualification concerning the word “realities”; Well said!

MO: experience is with modern psychiatry where clearly focusing on one's
problems is something that the mind delights in; delighting in it, it goes
out to recreate those problems;

KT: My conditions that could have used psychological help in the past have
been mostly attachments to the non-truth.  Our cittas are experts at
cognizing the non-truth: learning about the non-truth doesn't help
anybody.  Our suffering can be only eliminated by learning about the
truth.

MO: My point is that simply learning about the Truth is not enough:
One must remember the Truth; one must test the truth; one must evaluate what
one has tested; one must, relying on one’s conclusions continue on in ones
effort until one has achieved the final goal.

MO: The second view is sit down meditation and the particular saying of
The Buddha which is called "Resolve" which I have used as a guide . . .

KT: My observation in this area is that Buddha knows the accumulations of
his pupils and can teach a pupil exactly as the pupil needs to
progress: he has the ability to teach the most efficient way that the
pupil can progress.  However, he did not teach everybody the same way.
Not every ariya disciple becomes enlightened in that way.  Are you sure
you have the accumultations to progress in learning the truth in that
manner?

MO: I am sure you mean here to say: “One must make sure one has the
accumulations to progress in learning the truth in that manner.” I am
suggesting that at the least one must give this method a try! And as a
second place, to bite off what one can chew: if the Abhidhamma is for
superior minds, then surely one should begin with the suttas and stay with
them until they have been mastered before progressing on to that superior
(certainly more difficult to penetrate) doctrine.

MO: I have a hard time (a very hard time) catching the distinction between
the two in spite of the dictionary.

KT: The citta is briefly described above.  Cetana is a cetasikas, a
sankhara khanndas, arising with all cittas.  The most-readily-understandable
interpretation is "intention".  When we intend to do something (kill, lie,
give, keep sila, etc.), there is intention at work.

MO: Ok. Please bear with me: We have eye and visual object; with the contact
of the two [as I understood it] consciousness arises [sanna, vedana, vinnana
as one continuous process described by Sariputta as not being capable of
being perceived in distinctive units, i.e., this is a sanna, this is a
vedana, this is a vinnana]. An Element of that is a Unit called a citta.
That this element is confounded (sankhara) is clear. But it is arising as a
consequence of past action. It may carry with it the consequences of the
Intent with which that past action was made, but if it carries with it the
Intent for future action there is no escape from kamma by modification of
intent. Please help me understand the mechanism of action here.


Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

 
2204 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 5:29am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Amara,

Thank you for your response:

>MO: One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are presented
in what I would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th hand. When
we hear Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he either heard this
as it was spoken or heard it repeated to him by the Buddha at a later time.
What I hear in these lines is "What I hear is that Ananda heard this was the
Buddha's word from Sariputta."

AC: Evam me sutam means this is what I heard, it does not specify whether it
is second, third or fourth hand.  In fact several suttas are
recounted as accounts heard from another party to whom that event was
told by one of the original participants.

MO: Well Amara, I wasn’t trying to be scientifically accurate here. I was
trying to describe the distinction in the way the two documents present
themselves. I have found that the truth (not ultimate truth here but the
honest truth) or untruth of a thing often comes out as an inadvertent
statement by the speaker. Here I am suggesting that the two presenters are
presenting their documents in very different ways.

As I understand the tradition, the “Evam me Sutam”, while surely meaning
what you say, is intended in the special case of the Suttas to indicate that
it is, in fact, Ananda who is speaking. After that we are repeating and
should technically be saying: Evam me Sutam, (what I have read is that so
and so wrote down what was passed down through so and so many generations of
memorizers from a time when Ananda is said to have said Evam Me Sutam: . . .
“ But then, the same would have to be said about these words about the
Abhidhamma, which, essentially leaves us where we started.

AC: And the Buddhist teachings were first passed on by rote, several hundred
arahanta recited exactly the same words without deviation, since there were
no self or mana of any degree in the persons concerned, their memories were
not like anything anyone thick with the self and kilesa could understand or
imagine.

MO: Surely you mean to say: “As I have heard, the Buddhist teachings were .
. .” Just pulling your leg. This is also what I have heard and believe.

AC: It is not like the Bible where the apostles, however few they were in
the New Testament, for example, each told different details about the birth
of Christ, etc.  Here every syllable was the same.  Whether the teachings
are true has to be proven by the individual and their accumulations,

MO: As I have now stated a couple of times, I agree with this and so stated
in my original post [see below].

AC: what remains universal is that each being has eyes, ears, noses,
tongues, body-sense and mind, and that is what the Buddha taught about that
no other religion does.  Whether he talked about them or not these realities
exist and whether we live in ignorance taking them for the self some God
created or know them as they really are, realities that are impermanent that
should not be taken for the self depends very much on the individual's
accumulations.

MO: OK, no problem. I say again I have difficulty with that word “realities”
which has a meaning contradictory to the way it is being used here. Also, I
see this word “accumulations” coming up quite frequently. While I can
imagine the meaning of this word, it’s use here looks a lot like
“predestination.” I hope I have misunderstood and that what is intended is
not something that is hopelessly stuck in the Past?

>MO: In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no incongruity with
the suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to show itself
to have been put into the public view under false pretences, it would not
reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those who perpetrated the
hoax, and one would need to exercise extra special scrutiny of every
proposition, comparing each line to the suttas, and, as such, would
constitute a monumental waste of time.

AC: I am sure that if you could prove that this were true you would not be
asking any questions here.

MO: It is not my purpose here to be proving or disproving the authenticity
of the Abhidhamma. By asking the questions I have asked I will be able, by
the answers to determine if there is anything going on here that is worth
deeper examination by and for myself. If, in the process, I can see that
there is in the orthodox Abhidhamma that which is Not Dhamma according to
what I can see is orthodox dhamma in the suttas, then I will have my own
opinion and will keep it to myself. I have no wish to upset anyone’s belief
system. If, in the process of this investigation, some thing comes out that
proves the Abhidhamma to be an unorthodox document and there are others who
are taken from not-dhamma to dhamma, where is the harm?

>MO: So let me ask a question concerning dhamma of you or of anyone else who
cares to reply. There was talk here about citanas. Can someone place the
citanas for me in terms of the pancakkhandhas? What is a citana? What is the
origin of a citana? What sustains a citana? What is the end of a citana?
What is the way that leads to the end of a citana? Is the citana of the Past
or of the Present or of the Future? Is a citana the self? Does citana belong
to the self? Is citana derived of the self? Is the self an aspect of citana?

AC: As Robert said, citanas do not exist.  The citta is vinnana khandha. The
cetana cetasika is sankhara khandha.  You take both for the self, plus a lot
of other realities, because of ignorance.

MO: I do not thing Robert said anywhere that citanas do not exist (provided
we have the correct spelling). And, I think, given the understanding that I
have been given thus far, that to say that the cittanas/cetanas do not exist
would be incorrect.

I hope you are saying “One takes both for the self . . .”?

>MO: Would you say it was true or not that Penetrating Knowledge of
Citanas constituted knowing that citanas were changeable, not-self, and
in-so-far-as they were not self carried potential danger of causing Pain to
the degree one was attached to them?

Would you say that it was true or not that as seekers we should be
training ourselves not to think about "citanas"; not to think "I am
citanas"; not to think "citanas are mine"; not to think "I am made of
citanas" or "citanas are made of me"? If the answer to this is that it is
not true that as seekers this should be our practice, then what is the
release from citanas?

I am just asking. I would like to know. This is the essence of my
inquiry into the Abhidhamma. Not simply the inquiry concerning citanas, for
sure, but this is the pattern of my concern. I see in those who study the
Abhidhamma an obsession with Dhamma that is to my mind contrary to Dhamma. I
have joined this group to learn if this conception of mine is just a bias.

My questions are structured but not argumentative. I am sincere.

AC: I would suggest that you read the book Summary of Paramatthadhamma in
the advanced section of <http://dhammastudy.com/> for more precise
terminology on which to base our discussions and perhaps a more solid
understanding of the abhidhamma, then if you have any more questions
we could discuss them more clearly.

MO: Thank you for this reference which I will add to Roberts list of
suggested reading and will get to in time. Meanwhile I hope you are not
saying that I must understand what you are talking about before you are able
to teach me about what you are talking about? As I understand it, what we
are learning here was an oral trdition.



Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

 
2205 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 8:03am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > MO: Well Amara, I wasn't trying to be scientifically accurate here. 
I was
> trying to describe the distinction in the way the two documents 
present
> themselves. I have found that the truth (not ultimate truth here but 
the
> honest truth) or untruth of a thing often comes out as an 
inadvertent
> statement by the speaker. Here I am suggesting that the two 
presenters are
> presenting their documents in very different ways.
> 
> As I understand the tradition, the "Evam me Sutam", while surely 
meaning
> what you say, is intended in the special case of the Suttas to 
indicate that
> it is, in fact, Ananda who is speaking. After that we are repeating 
and
> should technically be saying: Evam me Sutam, (what I have read is 
that so
> and so wrote down what was passed down through so and so many 
generations of
> memorizers from a time when Ananda is said to have said Evam Me 
Sutam: . . .
> " But then, the same would have to be said about these words about 
the
> Abhidhamma, which, essentially leaves us where we started.


Dear MO,

It seems that the way that Sariputta did not repeat the words Evam me 
Sutam throughoout the abhidhamma teachings confused your reasoning.  
In fact Sariputta was very precise and when he spoke of the cetasika 
for example and having finished describing the 
sappa-citta-satarana-cetasika as universal and accompanying all citta 
he did not repeat this as he described all the 89 major kinds of 
citta.  This may leave you where he started but not the serious 
student.

 

> AC: what remains universal is that each being has eyes, ears, noses,
> tongues, body-sense and mind, and that is what the Buddha taught 
about that
> no other religion does.  Whether he talked about them or not these 
realities
> exist and whether we live in ignorance taking them for the self some 
God
> created or know them as they really are, realities that are 
impermanent that
> should not be taken for the self depends very much on the 
individual's
> accumulations.
> 
> MO: OK, no problem. I say again I have difficulty with that word 
"realities"
> which has a meaning contradictory to the way it is being used here. 
Also, I
> see this word "accumulations" coming up quite frequently. While I 
can
> imagine the meaning of this word, it's use here looks a lot like
> "predestination." I hope I have misunderstood and that what is 
intended is
> not something that is hopelessly stuck in the Past?


Realities are what exist and appear at this very instant to be proven, 
if one has the understanding of the dhamma as taught by the Buddha.  
Here in front of the computer screen does sight exist?  It is a vipaka 
citta arising from conditions accumulated in the past, as well as that 
which is accumulating now.  It is a dhatu of element that knows or 
experiences, whereas your eyes, ehen this dhatu is not there, would be 
like that of a dead persons or even the eyes being transplanted to 
another person, lying in ice somewhere.  Only when the transplant is 
finished and the receiver has the right accumulations, would the dhatu 
that sees arise in that eye again, as it does in yours the moment that 
you see.  What you see on the other hand is vanno, the visible object, 
whose characteristics are different from seeing, from sound, etc.  It 
is the only aramana of the eye dvara.  Yet each instant of vanno is 
different, the combinations are infinite and once that instant falls 
away you would never see that vanno again.  No two instants of vanno 
are identical, and they arise and fall away very rapidly, like the 
rotation of electrons and splitting of quarks.  Yet the citta or 
whatever you choose to call or spell them is 17 times faster than 
that.  They arise through the bodysense as you type or use the mouse, 
they do not exist only in rote form or in huge books and treatises but 
right under your nose, so to speak, but only if you studied them as 
the Buddha and Sariputta and the rest of the abhidhamma teachers teach 
you to understand how they work.  But the practical side is completely 
up to your accumulations whether to apply them or not, not even the 
Buddha can do that for you.



> MO: It is not my purpose here to be proving or disproving the 
authenticity
> of the Abhidhamma. By asking the questions I have asked I will be 
able, by
> the answers to determine if there is anything going on here that is 
worth
> deeper examination by and for myself. If, in the process, I can see 
that
> there is in the orthodox Abhidhamma that which is Not Dhamma 
according to
> what I can see is orthodox dhamma in the suttas, then I will have my 
own
> opinion and will keep it to myself. I have no wish to upset anyone's 
belief
> system. If, in the process of this investigation, some thing comes 
out that
> proves the Abhidhamma to be an unorthodox document and there are 
others who
> are taken from not-dhamma to dhamma, where is the harm?


I agree, none but to yourself.



> MO: Thank you for this reference which I will add to Roberts list of
> suggested reading and will get to in time. Meanwhile I hope you are 
not
> saying that I must understand what you are talking about before you 
are able
> to teach me about what you are talking about? As I understand it, 
what we
> are learning here was an oral trdition.


Thank you for the dialog, which conditioned some moments of study to 
arise in me as I wrote.  I do not think I have the qualifications to 
teach you anything but we could discuss the dhamma which is always 
useful and if it does not benefit you in any way, I will have tried my 
best and heve been forced to think of the truth and satipatthana and 
accumulated a little more right conditions for myself in the process! 
 So anumodana in your interest,

Amara

PS. Signing off for Cambodia, where I do not know if there would be 
any internet connections, we'll see what vipaka brings!  Am picking up 
Nina and Lodevijk up at 8.30 for the trip to the airport, Robert!  
They are in good hands!  (actually my chauffeur's, all of us)  
Yesterday I also explained in front of all concerned about the 
translations, and I think the VGs are all clear on my account, I am 
very happy about that!!!

 
2206 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 9:22am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Michael,

--- Michael Olds  wrote:
> MO: I completely agree with this and I stated as much in my original
> post.
> MO: This argument is made moot by your earlier argument that if what
> is
> taught is the truth, it is what the Buddha taught.
Thanks for your patience in reading through what we have already agreed
on: it gives me the confidence that we are on the same page.

> The first thing one needs to do in this case is to ask one’s self
> what it is
> that one is, one’s self, attempting to gain from studying this
> Dhamma. Then
> one needs to examine the claims made by the various teachers out
> there. Then
> one needs to examine the method suggested for accomplishing the goal.
> Then
> one needs to follow that method. If that method accomplishes the
> stated
> goal, then one can ask no more. Asking more one could ask if the
> Entire
> teaching of this teacher who has taught something that does
> accomplish that
> goal also is consistent with that part of that teaching that does
> accomplish
> that goal. 
>If it does, it doesn’t matter if the words are exactly
> those of
> the original teacher or not. But in the case of This System,
> comprehending
> the difficulty of the goal and the uniqueness in the world of it’s
> method,
> we would necessarily have to come to the conclusion (having had all
> the
> above experiences) that what we have in front of us in the Suttas is
> in fact
> the word of the Buddha . . . or, if it isn’t, then the words we have
> in
> front of us in the Suttas and Vinaya ARE the Buddha.
Totally agreed.  I think that we can now discuss why learning the
teachings in Abhidhammas is important.  

> the Abhidhamma is the superior dhamma 
The Buddha taught only the truth that will aid becoming free of all the
sufferrings.  If the truth helps one becoming free, that is the
superior truth for the person.   Hence, in this sense, the abhidhammas
is not superior to the sutta: they all teach the truths that help a
person becoming free.

> the Abhidhamma, would it not prove to be a wiser technique to begin
> with the
> more fundamental dhamma and progress on through it to the point where
> it is
> mastered?
I think we are in agreement here that knowing the fundamentals about
dhammas is the only way to proceed.  I think the difference here is
whether the Sutta and the Abhidhammas are "better" ways to know the
fundamentals.  I would like to present the following comments based on
my understandings:
1) The suttas are concise teachings exactly fitting the
accumulations/outlooks of the recipient.  It is deep, profound,
intricate, and subtle, as all the Master's teachings are.  The receiver
that became an ariya disciple succeeded not because of that teaching
alone, but because of the dhamma/panna accumulations done in countless
previous lives.  The Buddha himself had accumulations for the
englightenment for 4 asangayas (sp?) 100,000 kappa.  Maha-mogalana and
Sali-puttra each accumulated for 1 asangayas, 100,000 kappa.  
2) Without the needed accumulations, just a few short and medium
teaching alone cannot get a person to become an ariya disciple.
3) The abhidhammas are the books where all the deep, profound,
intricate, and subtle details are expounded upon.  This is for the
venuyasatta (slow learner, one who needs lengthy study) and other
people with no hope to become enlightend in this life, who, without the
explicit details, cannot grasp even the most fundamentals of dhammas. 
The abhidhammas are thus for the persons who did not have enough
accumulations to understand the truth based on the short teachings,
without the explicit details, alone.  In this sense, people who need to
study abhidhammas to correctly understand dhammas have in fact
"inferior" accumulations than the people who can understand it based on
the suttas alone.
4) Because of the explicitness of the abhidhammas, there are less
leeway to interpret dhammas as one pleases.  Because of this reason, if
the abhidhammas in fact teach the truth, it may lead a person with
certain kind of accumultations less astrayed from the truth.  Because
the suttra is not as explicit, we have more tendency to interpret it
anyway we like.
5) The elements of abhidhammas are in fact within the sutta itself.  I
have only personally seen a section of the sutta which explicitly
mentions the dhammas in the abhidhammas manner.   However, I have heard
that the abhidhammas are in fact, extracts from the suttas.
6) The main teacher from whom we quote frequently, Tan A. Sujin,
repeated time and time again that what we must compare the teachings
from all the three tipitikas: the meanings of the teachings must match
in order for us to have any kind of confidence that what we understand
is the truth.  We, as somebody who studies abhidhammas, do not hold
abhidhammas to be the ultimate authority: we hold all three tipitikas
to be the authority.
7) Hence, I think the main argument for studying the Abhidhammas first,
is to make sure that we correctly grasp the fundamentals of buddhism
(anicca, dukkha, and perhaps most importantly, anatta) before we wander
on from there.
8) I agree with you that learning and understanding the intricate
details of the teachings alone doesn't allow one to progress toward
becoming enlightened.  In fact, I am sure other people in this group
agreed to this as well.  Only directly knowing the truth can one
progress.  A. Sujin said as much.  However, we still need to
differentiate what is the truth and what isn't.

> Have you mastered the lesser Dhamma of the Suttas? I am not asking
> you to
> respond. I am asking you if you have asked yourself this question.
I have neither mastered the vinaya, the sutta, nor the abhidhamma.  I
am actively engaging in the studies of both the sutta and the
abhidhammas.  In fact, I totally agree that if I can master the
teachings based on the sutta alone, there is no need for me to study
abhidhammas.

> But this is the heart of your question: The Truth, so called, is not
> something you “get.” The Truth is what is left when you get rid of
> Low
> Views. The evaluation is not “Do I have the Truth?” it is: “Do I have
> any
> Low Views left?” Is there anything there that I regard as Me or Mine?
> Is
> there anything there that, if it changed by death or injury or some
> other
> calamity would cause me grief and lamentation? Is there anything
> there that
> I still hold to be “real” or to have an ultimate existence or no
> existence
> at all?, is there anything there that I hold to be “The One True way
> of
If I interpret what you mean by the high view (samma-dithi) and the low
views (micha-ditthi) right, then I think my position would be that I
need to both acquire the right views AND eliminate the wrong view.  

There are elements that are ultimate realities: they do exist, even
though they are not-self.  However, their existence are so brief, and
all arise only because there are conditions for them to arise, that
they are not worth "holding on" to.  How do we let go of them?  By
directly knowing them as they truly are: brief, non-significant, rising
only because there are conditions, not-self, that we can let go. 
Simply repeating to ourself that this is not me, it is not mine, I am
not in it, it is not in me, it is not self doesn't improve our direct
knowledge of the elements.  And again, this is a gross
misunderstandings of the "practice": I am by no way suggesting that
anyone in this group suffers it.  However, there are more subtle such
misconceptions.  How do we know which one is?

>My issue is: When the Truth can be found in the Four Truths, and No 
>Truth is
>Higher than these Truths, And these truths encompass all the other 
>Truths of
>this system, at what point does studying the Dhamma contradict those 
>truths:
>That to end DUKKHA one must end Thirst – and that includes Thirst for 
>Dhamma
>knowledge
I think we are in agreement here.  On the other hand, we can also
consider the purpose of studdying the tipitikas at the first place.  Do
we study it to: know it better than other people?   To teach other
people?  To show off?  These are of course the gross incorrect purpose
of studying it.  We study dhamma to relief ignorance, and to create
conditions causing panna to arise knowing the truth as it truly is.  
If we directly know the truth as it truly is, letting go happens
automatically (as a nana --- a step toward the maggha) when the
conditions are riped.  

>MO: So we are talking about divisions in the “consciousness element” 
here?
Yes, there are 89 (or 121) cittas classifications and 54 cetasikas. 
The characteristics of the citta is all the same: its chief and only 
function is to cognize an object.  The cetasikas, although also
cognizing objects, have other functions and characteristics
conditioning the citta.  Lobha, Dosa, Moha, Alobha, Adosa, Amoha,
stinginess, jealousy are all cetasikas.

>What I am asking is what are the conditions that cause it to arise?
According to an interpretation of patthana, seeing consciousness
requires 72 (???) conditions for the seeing consciousness to arise. 
Other cittas have the different set of conditions for arising. 
However, if you are coming from the view point of paticchasamutpadha,
avicca (ignorance) is the common cause of the rising of cittas.  Only
total elimination of avicca can a citta stop (permanently) arising.  

>MO: But you have said that cittas are conditioned. If cittas are
>conditioned, how can they be anything but of the Past? And has not the
>Buddha said: The Eye, Beggars, is of the Past. That which is of the 
>Past,
>put it away. Putting it away will be for your good and benefit for
many 
>a
>long day.
The conditioning dhammas for a conditioned dhamma can be the past, the
present, and in a slightly different sense, in the future.  The
conditioning dhammas causes the conditioned dhamma to arise, as well as
sustaining the conditioned dhamma.  Eliminating the conditions will
stop the arising of the dhamma.

>MO: Ok. Please bear with me: We have eye and visual object; with the 
>contact
>of the two [as I understood it] consciousness arises [sanna, vedana, 
>vinnana
>as one continuous process described by Sariputta as not being capable 
of
>being perceived in distinctive units, i.e., this is a sanna, this is a
>vedana, this is a vinnana]. An Element of that is a Unit called a 
citta.
>That this element is confounded (sankhara) is clear. But it is arising

as a
>consequence of past action. It may carry with it the consequences of 
the
>Intent with which that past action was made, but if it carries with it

the
>Intent for future action there is no escape from kamma by modification

of
>intent. Please help me understand the mechanism of action here.
Not all cetana causes future consequences.  Cetana of seeing
consciousness doesn't cause future consequences.  Cetana of an arahat
doesn't cause future consequences.  In order to understand this, we
need to expound on the details of patthana.

Again, my intention is not really to answer all questions, as there is
not enough time to explain everything in an email.  However, I hope
that you will see the truth and decide for yourself if studying
abhidhammas is a worthwhile endeaver or not.

kom




 
2207 From: wewynal   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 9:46am
Subject: Blessed One

 
  Hi,
 
When Buddhist literature refers to Buddha as the Blessed One, I wonder who blessed him? 

 
 
2208 From: Michael Olds   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 9:59am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Amara,

AC: It seems that the way that Sariputta did not repeat the words Evam me
Sutam throughout the abhidhamma teachings confused your reasoning.
In fact Sariputta was very precise and when he spoke of the cetasika
for example and having finished describing the sappa-citta-satarana-cetasika
as universal and accompanying all citta he did not repeat this as he
described all the 89 major kinds of citta.  This may leave you where he
started but not the serious student.

MO: On two issues in this one paragraph, Amara, you have both misunderstood
what was written in previous posts and, taking your misunderstanding as
fact, have formulated offensive opinions as to me personally and have taken
the further step of actually posting those opinions.

My reasoning in this matter is not confused. I have no reasoning whatsoever.
I was responding to a statement made by Jim who was reporting what he had
observed. I have read, to this point, nothing of the Abhidhamma.

Second, my statement was:

As I understand the tradition, the “Evam me Sutam”, while surely meaning
what you say, is intended in the special case of the Suttas to indicate that
it is, in fact, Ananda who is speaking. After that we are repeating and
should technically be saying: Evam me Sutam, (what I have read is that so
and so wrote down what was passed down through so and so many generations of
memorizers from a time when Ananda is said to have said Evam Me Sutam: . . .
“ But then, the same would have to be said about these words about the
Abhidhamma, which, essentially leaves us where we started.

This did not say that it left anyone where Sariputta started. It said that
your argument, that the words did not precisely indicate the path of
transmission, was irrelevant to the comparison I made between the two stated
paths.

The remark that the serious student would not be left at such a place was a
gratuitous crack at my seriousness. I have a sense of humor and display it
probably too frequently. As to how serious a student I am, I believe that
that is an issue for me to reconcile with myself.

>AC: what remains universal is that each being has eyes, ears, noses,
tongues, body-sense and mind, and that is what the Buddha taught
about that no other religion does.  Whether he talked about them or not
these realities exist and whether we live in ignorance taking them for the
self some God created or know them as they really are, realities that are
impermanent that should not be taken for the self depends very much on the
individual's accumulations.
>MO: OK, no problem. I say again I have difficulty with that word
"realities" which has a meaning contradictory to the way it is being used
here. Also, I see this word "accumulations" coming up quite frequently.
While I can imagine the meaning of this word, it's use here looks a lot like
"predestination." I hope I have misunderstood and that what is intended is
not something that is hopelessly stuck in the Past?


AC: Realities are what exist and appear at this very instant to be proven,
if one has the understanding of the dhamma as taught by the Buddha.

MO: This is blind reliance on authority and is unacceptable as an answer.

AC: Here in front of the computer screen does sight exist?

MO: This is the “it is” view. This is not-Dhamma. If this is the meaning of
these “Realities” and these “realities” are being taught by the Abhidhamma
then the Abhidhamma is teaching not-dhamma.

I do not yet come to a conclusion here.

You have proven to be a person who will misunderstand and attack personally
without careful consideration or fact checking. I have no confidence
whatsoever in your understanding of the Abhidhamma.

There must be a thousand suttas in the sutta Pitaka where someone comes up
to the Buddha and says: “How is it Gotama? Does the self exist?” and the
answer is “Not this!” [And, just to be on the safe side here, this line of
argument is not restricted to ideas concerning the self, but applies to any
phenomena whatsoever.]

And that is as it should be for the case is that for one who sees the
constructed nature of things it is not possible to hold the view that any
confounded thing exists; and for one who sees the ordinary world it is not
possible to hold the view that a thing does not exist. Therefore one
abstains from views and explains things in terms of their dependant
origination.

AC: It is a vipaka citta arising from conditions accumulated in the past, as
well as that which is accumulating now.  It is a dhatu of element that knows
or experiences, whereas your eyes, when this dhatu is not there, would be
like that of a dead persons or even the eyes being transplanted to another
person, lying in ice somewhere.  Only when the transplant is finished and
the receiver has the right accumulations, would the dhatu that sees arise in
that eye again, as it does in yours the moment that you see.  What you see
on the other hand is vanno, the visible object, whose characteristics are
different from seeing, from sound, etc.  It is the only aramana of the eye
dvara.  Yet each instant of vanno is different, the combinations are
infinite and once that instant falls away you would never see that vanno
again.  No two instants of vanno are identical, and they arise and fall away
very rapidly, like the rotation of electrons and splitting of quarks.  Yet
the citta or whatever you choose to call or spell them is 17 times faster
than that.  They arise through the body-sense as you type or use the mouse,

. . . they do not exist only in rote form or in huge books and treatises but
right under your nose, so to speak, but only if you studied them as the
Buddha and Sariputta and the rest of the abhidhamma teachers teach you to
understand how they work.

MO: They exist only if I have studied them? In fact I think that modern
physics has come up with something like that in the Heisenberg theory. I
would not ridicule your English here except that it has revealed again your
reliance on authority [you are not telling me something you know for
yourself, you are reciting doctrine], something explicitly advised against
in the suttas.

AC: But the practical side is completely up to your accumulations whether to
apply them or not, not even the Buddha can do that for you.

MO: There is that “accumulations” word again, and used in exactly this way
that indicates predestination. The meaning is one’s previous kamma? This is
not something that is so much out of one’s control as I am being lead to
believe it is from the way I am seeing this word being used here.

MO: It is not my purpose here to be proving or disproving the
Authenticity  of the Abhidhamma. By asking the questions I have asked I will
be able, by the answers to determine if there is anything going on here that
is worth deeper examination by and for myself. If, in the process, I can see
that there is in the orthodox Abhidhamma that which is Not Dhamma according
to what I can see is orthodox dhamma in the suttas, then I will have my own
opinion and will keep it to myself. I have no wish to upset anyone's belief
system. If, in the process of this investigation, some thing comes out that
proves the Abhidhamma to be an unorthodox document and there are others who
are taken from not-dhamma to dhamma, where is the harm?

AC: I agree, none but to yourself.

MO: If in the course of this investigation something comes out that proves
the Abhidhamma to be an unorthodox document and there are others who are
taken from not-dhamma to dhamma there is no harm. Period. Not to them, not
to me. Good is done.

“Those Beggars, Beggars, who explain not-dhamma as not-dhamma; following
these Beggars, Beggars, a great many beings are well lead and put on the
right track. Put on the right track a great many beings experience
happiness. And gain, service, and pleasure is brought to gods and men.
Furthermore Beggars, such Beggars create great good kamma and lead to the
preservation of the True Word.”

On the other hand:

“Those Beggars, Beggars, who explain not-dhamma as dhamma; following these
Beggars, Beggars, a great many beings are lead astray and thrown off track.
Thrown off, a great many beings experience unhappiness. And Loss,
disservice, and pain is brought to gods and men. Furthermore, Beggars, such
Beggars create great bad kamma and lead to the disappearance of the True
Word.”

Both from the Book of the Ones.

>MO: Thank you for this reference which I will add to Roberts list of
suggested reading and will get to in time. Meanwhile I hope you are
not saying that I must understand what you are talking about before you
are able to teach me about what you are talking about? As I understand it,
what we are learning here was an oral tradition.

>AC: Thank you for the dialog, which conditioned some moments of study to
arise in me as I wrote.  I do not think I have the qualifications to
teach you anything but we could discuss the dhamma which is always
useful and if it does not benefit you in any way, I will have tried my
best and have been forced to think of the truth and satipatthana and
accumulated a little more right conditions for myself in the process!
So anumodana in your interest,

MO: Well, if insulting people is the kind of “accumulations” you are looking
for this little exchange has credited your account with something today.

Additionally, you did not respond to many of the issues which I addressed to
you.


TO THE REST: Well that was fast. I was sure such a time as this would
quickly arrive, but this is a record. I stay on one of these forums only
until such a time as I suffer a personal attack. At that time I respond to
the open issues and concluding that unsubscribe from the board. This is a
policy and is impersonal as regards the rest of the board. I do not stay
because to thoroughly deal with personal attacks on a board owned by someone
else would be impossible and even an attempt would be a lengthy and serious
disruption of another persons property [yours and the list owners]. "When
bad conditions increase and good condiditions decrease, depart, even if it
means having to get up and go without saying goodbye."

Best Wishes!
Michael Olds    California
www.BuddhaDust.org
ICQ#94992160

 
2209 From: shinlin   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 11:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Blessed One

 
  Dear Wewynal,
    The teaching of the Lord Buddha is all about Dhamma or elements which are real and exist. When we realized or understood the Dhamma, gradually we will know that there is no Self and that everything is Dhamma, including ourself. The moment of understanding, is Panna or wisdom in understanding the truth or dhamma. Therefore in the Tipitaka, everything which the Lord Buddha said, was all about dhamma and the characteristic of it. So from here, we can understand that the Blessed One means that the elements of which the Lord Buddha has accumulated through Parami 10, is pure and omniscience. In the teaching of the Lord Buddha, everything are only dhatu or dhamma or elements, it is not a being or person or anything by assumptions. 
    Therefore in your question, the Blessed One doesn't mean that someone bless the Lord Buddha. BUT he is the Blessed One with full omniscience of purified elements like Panna(wisdom). I hope this can help you. If there is anything you need to understand, pls let me know.
with metta,
Shin
 
From: wewynal 
To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com 
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 8:46 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Blessed One


Hi,
 
When Buddhist literature refers to Buddha as the Blessed One, I wonder who blessed him? 



 
 
2210 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 11:26am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Michael,
I was just about to reply to your last post to me when I saw
your letter to Amara. See my comments below.
--- Michael Olds  wrote: > Amara,
> 
> TO THE REST: Well that was fast. I was sure such a time as
> this would
> quickly arrive, but this is a record. I stay on one of these
> forums only
> until such a time as I suffer a personal attack. At that time
> I respond to
> the open issues and concluding that unsubscribe from the
> board. This is a
> policy and is impersonal as regards the rest of the board. I
> do not stay
> because to thoroughly deal with personal attacks on a board
> owned by someone
> else would be impossible and even an attempt would be a
> lengthy and serious
> disruption of another persons property [yours and the list
> owners]. "When
> bad conditions increase and good condiditions decrease,
> depart, even if it
> means having to get up and go without saying goodbye."
> 
> Best Wishes!
> Michael Olds    California

As Jonothon pointed out recently to another member a fair number
of the current members of this group have had an email lashing
from Amara. I had a mild one myself and it does sting.
This is an unmoderated group so we do rely on each other to keep
order. I hope you will reconsider and carry on as an active
member. Amara is usually very amiable once she has made her
position clear; and as much as she is overly blunt when
disagreeing with someone she is also full of praise when one
posts something that she feels is genuinely useful (perhaps you
remember her first post to you where she said it was delicious
or something). It is her nature - a very frank person. 
I personally have no problem with anything you said, although I
disagree with some of it. As I said earlier we don't have to
agree but we all benefit by hearing each others interpretations.
best wishes
Robert



 
2211 From: shin lin   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 3:05pm
Subject: set a time in the chat room for dhamma talk

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends,
There is a chat room in the egroup. Would it be good if we set a GMT time 
for everyone to meet on the net and chat dhamma together on the net. It 
would be nice. 
suggestion,
Shin

 
2212 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 3:38pm
Subject: letter from Nina

 
  Dear group,
I thought you might like to hear some extracts from a letter I
got from Nina Van Gorkom today.
“It is a great asset for the internet group that Pali scholars
like Jim have joined. And it is very useful that Gayan gave
explanations to the Vancaka text (the Pali is so compact) which
I shall study. I really appreciate the efforts for translating
the commentary and tika to the Patthana.” She later writes “I
find when reading the Pali commentary I have to go very slowly
because of the amount of words I have to look up in the
dictionary”.
robert




 
2213 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 6:33pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear michael,
As I am not sure you are still on the list I just reply very
briefly. If anyone would like any detail on any aspect please
ask.

I earlier wrote RK: However, I would suggest that if we believe
thinking must obstruct
insight into dhammas then that shows that one does not see that 
thinking" is
simply different namas (mental phenomena)including
citta(consciousness) 
and
cetana(volition) arising because they are conditioned to
arise..>>>>

MO: First I see thinking as obstructing insight into Dhammas;
and 
second I
do not see how thinking this way shows that one does not see
that 
thinking
is simply different namas. While one is thinking one is
certainly not 
seeing
the rise and fall of mental phenomena. "Thinking" almost by
definition, 
is
identification of "Self" with these cittas and cetanas.>>>>>

Robert: Did the Buddha ever think? Did the arahants think? I
would suggest they did but they were not identified with cittas
and cetanas. 
Does a fly think? I would guess not in words but they have
concepts, they have papanca- tanha, ditthi and mana.


I earlier wrote RK: If we wish to stop thinking isn't that
moving away from that very 
moment
when thinking arises?>>

MO: We do not "wish" to stop thinking. We train ourselves not to
think
about. Thoughts arise, but not to "us." They are not "our"
thoughts.>>>>
 
Robert: Two sentences ago you said "Thinking almost be
definition is identification of "self" with these cittas and
cetasikas" Now you say "they are not our thoughts"

I earlier wrote RK: Why not be aware of any moment just as it
is. You see there can be
direct awareness even while thinking.>>>>

MO: If you were to say this like this: "There can be direct
awareness 
while
thoughts are rising and falling." I would agree.

RK: Panna (wisdom) slips in and insights any of the many
paramattha
dhammas(realities) that are always arising.

MO: This may be an Abhidhamma thing: the word "realities" has 
implications
of realness. To hold that any phenomena has realness is to hold
the 
ditthi:
"it is". My reading: PARAMATTHA = PARA pas around up overa sun -
um; 
ATTHA
attaining; DHAMMA thing. To avoid the problems associated with 
"ultimate
realities" I would go with something like "fundamental
phenomena.">>>>>>>

Robert: Yes fundamental phenomena is a better term but it is
clumsy that is why most translators opt for realities. Either
way we have to go into some detail to define the term.

<<MO: I am not sure about this "insighting" that Panna does. I
don't see
pa~n~na out there busy doing anything that isn't conditioned by
the 
prior
preparation of the individual in his letting go of low views.>>>

Robert: It is so important to see that there is no individual,
no us. There are simply khandas, dhatus, ayatanas arising and
passing away at enormous speed. It can so easily be a hidden
self who is letting go.

I earlier wrote RK: This happens very quickly. This is one of
the differences between
samattha and satipatthana vipassana.

MO: That these phenomena are occurring at an incredible speed is
not in
question to my mind. The question is: to what degree is it
necessary to
think about it to know how the details of it work in order to be
able 
to see
that identification with it is the recipe for a bad end, and
that 
therefore
it should be let go.>>>>
Robert: Well we could argue about exactly how much detail. Some
people might need less than others. For some no matter how much
they get it doesn't seem to help much. The Mahagopalaka sutta
(majjhima nikaya):
"And how bhikkhus does a Bhikkhu know the ford? In this sasana,
a Bhikkhu who occasionally vistits those monks who are
well-informed and who have learnt DhammaVinaya and patimokkha by
heart asks 'What is the etymology of this word sirs? What is the
meaning of this word Sirs?' Then those venerable monks disclose
to him what is to be disclosed, make clear what is to be made
clear, and on various points of the doctrine they set his doubts
at rest" Then the atthakattha says that "the monk who does not
know the ford" even when he approaches these learned monks does
not ask in the right way.For example "Having approached one who
is learned in Abhidhamma he asks questions about as to what
should be done according to the rules of the Vinaya" or he
doesn't ask anything.

MO:When I hear people comparing "samattha" and "satipatthana"
vipassana, what I am hearing is the discussion of the points of
view of certain schools of Buddhist thought. In my reading I see
the satipatthana sutta as encompassing both samattha and
vipassana, and my tendency is to go with the sutta and forget
about the schools. I believe up past the learning of the theory
of how the system works, the proper practice as described in the
suttas is to develop samattha and vipassana equally.>>>

Robert: I went to your website (Buddhadust) and looked up the
satipatthana sutta and commentary. I cut and pasted this:
"In regard to the pair of the dull-witted and the keen-witted
minds among tamable persons of the craving type and the
theorizing type, pursuing the path of quietude [samatha] or that
of insight [vipassana]" 
Robert


 
2214 From:  
Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 7:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Jim,

so as in loka sutta --> yena yenahi ma~n~nati , tato tam hoti a~n~nata
and then --> a~n~natabhavi bhavasatto loko, bhavapareto, bhavamevabhinandati


so the 'otherwise' happens because of this 'ma~n~nana'

so when no ma~n~nana exists ( as in an arahant ) theres no 'thus' and
'otherwise'



Thanks

 
2215 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 1:09am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Mo, Robert and Kom,

Thanks to you all:  MO, for your excellent questions
and Robert and Kom for your excellent replies.  I look
forward to more.

Mike




 
2216 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 1:28am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Bravo, MO and Robert--this keeps getting better. 
Please continue!
--- Michael Olds  wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> You first in that my dialog with you began first:
> 
> RK: . . . I have a feeling we see, or will see, a
> sizeable
> portion in much the same light. Not necessary that
> we have to agree about
> everything; what we should do though is clearly
> explain our interpretations
> so that we and anyone listening can fully understand
> our positions.
> Hopefully we all learn something that improves our
> understanding of Dhamma.
> 
> MO: I have been discussing the dhamma with people
> since the early sixties. I
> have always found that putting myself out there and
> taking the battering
> that usually resulted was one of the most effective
> learning tools for me. I
> look to the suttas and how most of them came to be
> as my model. Debate in
> the old days was a lively art.
> 
> The problem, as I see it is that there are one or
> two key concepts which if
> taken in the wrong way can alter one’s entire
> understanding of the Dhamma. I
> cit-a um . . . Letting Go for one. If one does not
> grasp the idea that the
> key to the entire structure is letting go, [sammaa
> Sankappa #1: nekkhamma]
> then the purpose of every other teaching is lost. So
> my response to this is:
> Agree on anything or not, I wish you nothing but the
> best, but the key for
> me is seeing a few things correctly whether or not
> anyone agrees with me.
> 
> MO: . . .but just let me tell you where my doubting
> mind has immediately
> focused: On this business of needing to "think
> about" in order to see
> not-self, and this breaking this thinking up into
> right
> Thinking [and wrong thinking]
> 
> RK: Were you thinking about Dhamma when you composed
> this reply? Do
> you think about Dhamma when you study the suttas?
> There are so
> many levels of understanding but if there has never
> been
> consideration of the Dhamma - and that is thinking -
> then
> higher levels cannot arise. Imagine telling someone
> to sit and
> meditate but never teaching them any Dhamma- what
> could they
> understand?
> 
> MO: It is possible for an individual who has never
> heard the Dhamma to
> attain the goal by careful observation. This is the
> condition of the Buddha,
> this is the condition of “Silent” Buddhas. Putting
> those to one side as
> being the case for beings of extraordinary
> determination; for the rest
> hearing [what we can conclude is essential key
> concepts of] the Dhamma is
> needed. We do have the case of individuals who have
> heard extremely little
> of the Dhamma who have grasped it’s meaning. That
> this must be the case is
> dictated by simple logistics: most people in the
> Buddha’s day will have
> heard no more than one sutta (pick one). There was
> no writing in the general
> population. Not everyone could follow the Buddha
> around. If you examine the
> suttas you will notice that even broken into parts
> they almost always hold
> up as complete “Dhammas” in the sense of having the
> essential ingredients in
> them to lead an energetic, determined individual to
> the goal. I recall one
> case where a Bhikkhu was taught only that “whatever
> it is, if it has
> anything to do with Tanha, know that to be
> Not-Dhamma.”
> 
> My point in terms of studying the dhamma is that
> this study must be aimed
> correctly. If we are going to be “thinking about”
> then we should approach
> this thinking about as a matter of comprehending
> that which will most
> readily facilitate letting go. Thinking should be
> done expeditiously. Study
> dhamma to grasp the basic idea of dhamma – for this
> you will not find any
> better vehicle than the Four Truths. “He who grasps
> the Four Truths Grasps
> Dependent Origination.” Study Dhamma with the idea
> that by studying Dhamma
> you are not making trouble for yourself elsewhere.
> Study Dhamma to develop
> focus of mind so that when you have achieved Vision
> you will be able to see
> what you see, not because studying dhamma will bring
> about vision. If you
> study dhamma because you think that by understanding
> the detailed meaning of
> each of its constituent parts in detail you will
> have in any way advanced
> your progress toward freedom over and above what you
> could have got from the
> Four Truths and you are doomed.
> 
> RK: Certainly if we believe that thinking about
> dhammas is the same
> as directly experiencing them then that is a
> delusion which must
> obstruct direct insight.
> 
> MO: Agreed – I believe this is the point I was
> making above in different
> words.
> 
> RK:  The moments of direct insight are not a matter
> of thinking in
> words -for instance if understanding vedana as
> vedana (feeling as
> feeling)there is simply sati-sampajanna (mindfulness
> and clear
> comprehension)for those brief moments.
> 
> MO: Here I see the first building block of a
> misunderstanding of the
> Satipatthana: that Insight is it’s goal. We all
> study the words between the
> refrains of the Satipatthana; few of us notice the
> refrain that ends each
> section:
> 
> . . . thus he lives without self, downbound to
> nothing at all in the world.
> 
> Insight too is a passing phenomena. Insight if
> grasped incorrectly, as the
> gain of some “right” view, is just leaping from one
> bound up condition to
> another. It becomes an intellectual phenomena.
> Without “letting go” as the
> guiding principle behind one’s effort, insight is
> useless.
> 
> RK: However, I would suggest that if we believe
> thinking must obstruct
> insight into dhammas then that shows that one does
> not see that thinking" is
> simply different namas (mental phenomena)including
> citta(consciousness) and
> cetana(volition) arising because they are
> conditioned to arise.
> 
> MO: First I see thinking as obstructing insight into
> Dhammas; and second I
> do not see how thinking this way shows that one does
> not see that thinking
> is simply different namas. While one is thinking one
> is certainly not seeing
> the rise and fall of mental phenomena. “Thinking”
> almost by definition, is
> identification of “Self” with these cittas and
> cetanas.
> 
> 
> RK: If we wish to stop thinking isn't that moving
> away from that very moment
> when thinking arises?
> 
> MO: We do not “wish” to stop thinking. We train
> ourselves not to think
> about. Thoughts arise, but not to “us.” They are not
> “our” thoughts.
> 
> RK: Why not be aware of any moment just as it is.
> You see there can be
> direct awareness even while thinking.
> 
> MO: If you were to say this like this: “There can be
> direct awareness while
> thoughts are rising and falling.” I would agree.
> 
> RK: Panna (wisdom) slips in and insights any of the
> many paramattha
> dhammas(realities) that are always arising.
> 
> 
=== message truncated ===



 
2217 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 3:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] set a time in the chat room for dhamma talk

 
  Dear Khun Shin,

I've thought of this myself--so naturally, I think
it's an excellent suggestion!  Why not propose a few
GMT's and see what kind of response you get?

Mike
--- shin lin  wrote:
> Dear Dhamma Friends,
> There is a chat room in the egroup. Would it be good
> if we set a GMT time 
> for everyone to meet on the net and chat dhamma
> together on the net. It 
> would be nice. 
> suggestion,
> Shin
> 
> 
> 



 
2218 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 4:49am
Subject: Hello all

 
  Kia ora koutou (hello all), 

  My name is Jody Pirret and I am pleased to introduce myself 
  to other members of this email group. In addition to the 
  personal information made available through the egroups 
  registration, I would just like to elaborate on my interests. 

  Through university study, I have come to be very interested 
  in the development of Western culture, philosophically, 
  materially, and, scientifically. I feel I am coming to know 
  how I have been conditioned to view myself within such 
  paradigms as biomedicine, psychology, physics, and, 
  economics. Presently, I question the way in which such 
  paradigms promote their truths above all other ways of doing 
  things. 

  Through philosophy, I have enjoyed discussing mind and reality. 
  Such topics have inevitably opened my eyes to the truths of 
  the East in the form of confucianism, taoism, and, Buddhism. 
  Therefore, it is with an empty cup that I seek to learn from 
  such treasures through such things as martial arts and meditation. 

  I feel all forms of buddhism have much to offer Western culture. 
  In terms of Theravada Buddhism, I read a book by Nina Van Gorkom.
  It had an old contact address of Robert Kirkpatrick's in it, and
  I was able to track him down. Thankfully, he put me on to this egroup.
  Therefore, I look forward to receiving comments from this, the 
  Dhamma study egroup. 

  Regards, Jody.

 
2219 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 7:36am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear group,
I wrote to Michael O privately and he politely wrote back
confirming that he was definitly staying off the list, not only
because of Amara's letter but also because:
<<<MO"I again noticed the reference to the idea that the
Abhidhamma considers
certain elements to have an ultimate reality. For me that closes
the 
case on
the Abhidhamma. This is definately not-dhamma and clearly
indicates to 
me
that this is a late aberation.">>>>

Needless to say I do not think Abhidhamma is "not-dhamma".
Back in april I had a discussion with a Mahayana monk and wrote
this (I think post 285- by the way searching the files is easy
using the search engine on egroups):


<<<<<<"Now a few words on the nature of dhammas (cittas,
cetasikas  and rupas). 
The word dhamma is often translated as reality. But
the word reality has connotations of something
substantial whereas dhammas , are too evanescent to
imagine. As I said  recently on this list. Any words
we
use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent,
momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot
convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away.
 
Take a moment of seeing: For  seeing to arise there
must be cakkhu
pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined
rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This
special rupa is the result of kamma. But
it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling
away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this
moment the force of the kamma is still working to
continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye,
the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of
the body, are also conditioned by different conditions
- not only kamma- and these rupas also only last for a
moment before vanishing forever. Every conditioning
factor is simarly evanescent as is every conditioned
moment. 

The reason I added this is to highlight the Theravada
understanding of dhammas. While the theravada is not
quite as radical in its interpretation of reality as
the Prajna- parimita sutta, it does nevertheless
demolish any ideas of substantiality.
I think this needs consideration as we(I mean
Theravada people) are prone to talk about "moments" of
mind, and so on. However what we mean by moments is
rather open to interpretation. Some might have an idea
of a moment as a self-contained unit- sort of like a
box that contains things  but that is prone to
disappear rather quickly. However from the Patthana -
the last book of the abhidhamma - we learn that
"moments" are highly dynamic with influences from past
and present factors. The dhammas themselevs are not
different form the quality they posses. In fact the
subcommentary to the Dhammasangani says that "there is
no other thing than the quality born by it" .   And no
moment is identical with another-It is true that such
dhammas as sanna or vedana are classified under the
same heading but the actual quality is influenced by
so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of
feeling is exactly the same.
I write all this as I want to emphasize that any idea
of cittas or cetasikas  being like some mental atom
(This is sort of how I saw things in my early days) is
not correct"".>>>>>> 

 I add this in case any of you are having the same concerns as
MO. As always if anyone wants elaboration on any point please
ask.


 Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Bravo, MO and
Robert--this keeps getting better. 
> Please continue!
> --- Michael Olds  wrote:
> > Robert,



 
2220 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 8:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all

 
  Dear Jody,
thanks for joining in! A number of the regular members,
including the list owners, are now in Cambodia meeting to
discuss Dhamma. Nina van gorkom and her husband as well as Sujin
Boriharnwanaket and other teachers of Dhamma are also there.
Hopefully someone will be able to get to a computer and pass on
a little of their discussions. 
robert
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: > Kia ora
koutou (hello all), 
> 
>   My name is Jody Pirret and I am pleased to introduce myself 
>   to other members of this email group. In addition to the 
>   personal information made available through the egroups 
>   registration, I would just like to elaborate on my
> interests. 
> 
>   Through university study, I have come to be very interested 
>   in the development of Western culture, philosophically, 
>   materially, and, scientifically. I feel I am coming to know 
>   how I have been conditioned to view myself within such 
>   paradigms as biomedicine, psychology, physics, and, 
>   economics. Presently, I question the way in which such 
>   paradigms promote their truths above all other ways of doing
> 
>   things. 
> 
>   Through philosophy, I have enjoyed discussing mind and
> reality. 
>   Such topics have inevitably opened my eyes to the truths of 
>   the East in the form of confucianism, taoism, and, Buddhism.
> 
>   Therefore, it is with an empty cup that I seek to learn from
> 
>   such treasures through such things as martial arts and
> meditation. 
> 
>   I feel all forms of buddhism have much to offer Western
> culture. 
>   In terms of Theravada Buddhism, I read a book by Nina Van
> Gorkom.
>   It had an old contact address of Robert Kirkpatrick's in it,
> and
>   I was able to track him down. Thankfully, he put me on to
> this egroup.
>   Therefore, I look forward to receiving comments from this,
> the 
>   Dhamma study egroup. 
> 
>   Regards, Jody. 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 



 
2221 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 11:40am
Subject: Dana to Myanmar?

 
  Dear group,
I sent a parcel of books (30 copies of Realities and Concepts,
Boriharnawanaket) to Burma (Bhikkhu Bodhi gave me the address
and said they would appeciate it).
It was to the International Buddhist University in Rangoon.
I got a nice letter back today.
"thank you for the valuable package. We are now teaching
vipassana and satipatthana and the subject of 'Realities and
concepts' is very informative and useful to us. As we are
teaching Nuns and bhikkhus also at the "sukra Theravada
university" we can also distribute these books there. This book
helps us with mental development in daily life. many thanks!"
They then ask if we have other English titles and whether we
could send them copies of those as well as more copies of R and
C.
So for those of you who are now in Bangkok and would like to
make merit take your chance!
The Address is
U Han Htay
International Buddhist University
NO.98 , 46th street
Yangoon
Myanmar


 
 
2222 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 4:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 214

 
  Dear Robert,
Yes, I realized my mistake right after I sent it, so I apologize for any
inconvenience caused.

Anumodhana,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
2223 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 9:47pm
Subject: Cambodia update

 
  dear Robert & friends,

just a quick check in from Pnom Penh to pick up on yr
hint! So glad to see all the messages, but we're all
behind on reading them! We've all been quite
overwhelmed by the reception from our Cambodian dhamma
friends. Busloads came to meet us at the airport and
talks given by A.Sujin at the temples are attended by
several hundred Cambodians each time and a lot of
monks also. They are really, really apprciative and
they seem to ask very intelligent questions which
reflect their abhidhamma studies and the time they
have been listening to her radio programs and the
teachings of one of her students who now teaches here.

We also had a very nice English discussion today and
the last part was concerning the details of the
abhidhamma and the purpose of studying these and how
much it was necessary to know. I may report in detail
later. 

Pnom Penh is very peaceful and members in our group
who were last here 30 yrs ago say that apart from one
or two new hotels, there are no apparent changes from
that time!

Jody, a big welcome and thankyou for giving us some
details about yourself. I look forward to more
discussion with you when I return to Hong Kong.

Best rgds to all...short of time for now.

Sarah
p.s. (again!)  JOE, I forgot to add your name last
time- do hope you can also join us in Bkk next
weekend. Pls check Amara's 2nd Schedules message about
a week ago for the details. IVAN we also hope you're
back for this!

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Dear Jody,
> thanks for joining in! A number of the regular
> members,
> including the list owners, are now in Cambodia
> meeting to
> discuss Dhamma. Nina van gorkom and her husband as
> well as Sujin
> Boriharnwanaket and other teachers of Dhamma are
> also there.
> Hopefully someone will be able to get to a computer
> and pass on
> a little of their discussions. 
> robert



 
2224 From: SELAMAT   
Date: Tue Dec 5, 2000 11:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia update

 
  Dear Sarah,
Just want to say "how are you" to Mrs Nina van Gorkom. May she always be
happy and healthy.

Would you please pass it to her.
anumodana,

selamat rodjali
dhamma study group bogor.


 
2225 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 6:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] letter from Nina

 
  Thanks, Robert, for posting these extracts from the letter. I'm the same
when it comes to reading Pali commentaries as I too have to spend a lot of
time looking up words in dictionaries and checking with other commentaries.
It can be quite a tedious process. I have been taking my time working on the
translation of the Patthana commentaries. It is something I'm not doing
everyday as I often get diverted to other areas of Pali & dhamma study,
partly due to the influence of this discussion group. I probably won't have
anything ready from the commentary to post to the group until after the new
year as the holiday season is coming up shortly and I'll be away for about
two weeks starting in about 10 days or so.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

>Dear group,
>I thought you might like to hear some extracts from a letter I
>got from Nina Van Gorkom today.
>“It is a great asset for the internet group that Pali scholars
>like Jim have joined. And it is very useful that Gayan gave
>explanations to the Vancaka text (the Pali is so compact) which
>I shall study. I really appreciate the efforts for translating
>the commentary and tika to the Patthana.” She later writes “I
>find when reading the Pali commentary I have to go very slowly
>because of the amount of words I have to look up in the
>dictionary”.
>robert

 
2226 From: jaran jai-nhuknan   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 9:36am
Subject: Cambodia

 
  Hello from Cambodia:

This is Jaran along with Nina, Amara, Sarah, Jonathan, Jack, Oii, Ell and O
(and her husband Chai). We are on a Dhamma trip to Cambodia with Tan A. Sujin.

We have been , to say the least, overwhelmed by the enthusiasm of the
Cambodians and the Dhamma we heard from the mouth of Tan A. Sujin. Questions
for the audience and Tan A. Sujin's answers are profound.

On the first session with Cambodians (more than thousand of them), she talks
about the three kinds of dhukka: physical suffering and unhappiness, the
changing of happiness and the impermanence of all dhamma. These three and
realized by different level of panna. (more later).

I met Nina, Jonathan, Sarah and Amara for the first time. They are great! We
are holding English sessions daily. Yesterday, we talked about something very
important (for me at least): the ''right study". The key is one has to know
what will help the arise of the awareness of THIS moment here and now. And one
has to know one's limit of understanding HERE and NOW.

Hope you all are well. My lobha wishes Kom was here, so I could learn more.

Full reports will come later. I have to go now.



 
2227 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 11:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all

 
  Welcome Jody !! One thing you would learn from this group is definitely the realities. Oh !! forgot, you will probably learn some Pali here too.
with regards,
shin
Ms.Shin Lin
Zebra Computer Company Limited
1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd
Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400
Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines )
Fax : 66-2-6516001
company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/
  
 
2228 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 1:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] letter from Nina

 
  Dear Jim,

--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Thanks, Robert, for
I have been taking my time
> working on the
> translation of the Patthana commentaries. It is something I'm
> not doing
> everyday as I often get diverted to other areas of Pali &
> dhamma study,
> partly due to the influence of this discussion group.

Don't feel any time pressure from us. Somehow it is  comforting
just knowing you are working on them.

 I
> probably won't have
> anything ready from the commentary to post to the group until
> after the new
> year as the holiday season is coming up shortly and I'll be
> away for about
> two weeks starting in about 10 days or so.

Off to paint the town red, eh. (just joking)

Best wishes
Robert



 
2229 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 5:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dana to Myanmar?

 
  Dear group,
I have taken the chance to do merit as suggested by Robert, by
visiting the foundation today and obtaining some books and sent
them to U Han Htay in Myanmar.
Fearing that I might be taking too many copies from a limited
amount of stock, I chose to take and send the following:-
10 copies of 'Realities and concepts'.
20 copies each of the 'Mental development' series.
10 copies of 'Abhidhamma in Daily life'.
20 copies of the 'Letters'
20 copies of the thin grey book the name of which I don't remember.
This I mention in case if anyone who might have a better estimate of
the stock of books at the foundation, might see the possibility of
sending more copies and do it.

Sukin.

Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:

> Dear group,
> I sent a parcel of books (30 copies of Realities and Concepts,
> Boriharnawanaket) to Burma (Bhikkhu Bodhi gave me the address
> and said they would appeciate it).
> It was to the International Buddhist University in Rangoon.
> I got a nice letter back today.
> "thank you for the valuable package. We are now teaching
> vipassana and satipatthana and the subject of 'Realities and
> concepts' is very informative and useful to us. As we are
> teaching Nuns and bhikkhus also at the "sukra Theravada
> university" we can also distribute these books there. This book
> helps us with mental development in daily life. many thanks!"
> They then ask if we have other English titles and whether we
> could send them copies of those as well as more copies of R and
> C.
> So for those of you who are now in Bangkok and would like to
> make merit take your chance!
> The Address is
> U Han Htay
> International Buddhist University
> NO.98 , 46th street
> Yangoon
> Myanmar
>
>

 
2230 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 6:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dana to Myanmar?

 
  Anumodana Khun Sukin and Khun Robert.
Ms.Shin Lin
Zebra Computer Company Limited
1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd
Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400
Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines )
Fax : 66-2-6516001
company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Sukinderpal Narula 
To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dana to Myanmar?


Dear group,
I have taken the chance to do merit as suggested by Robert, by
visiting the foundation today and obtaining some books and sent
them to U Han Htay in Myanmar.
Fearing that I might be taking too many copies from a limited
amount of stock, I chose to take and send the following:-
10 copies of 'Realities and concepts'.
20 copies each of the 'Mental development' series.
10 copies of 'Abhidhamma in Daily life'.
20 copies of the 'Letters'
20 copies of the thin grey book the name of which I don't remember.
This I mention in case if anyone who might have a better estimate of
the stock of books at the foundation, might see the possibility of
sending more copies and do it.

Sukin.

Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:

> Dear group,
> I sent a parcel of books (30 copies of Realities and Concepts,
> Boriharnawanaket) to Burma (Bhikkhu Bodhi gave me the address
> and said they would appeciate it).
> It was to the International Buddhist University in Rangoon.
> I got a nice letter back today.
> "thank you for the valuable package. We are now teaching
> vipassana and satipatthana and the subject of 'Realities and
> concepts' is very informative and useful to us. As we are
> teaching Nuns and bhikkhus also at the "sukra Theravada
> university" we can also distribute these books there. This book
> helps us with mental development in daily life. many thanks!"
> They then ask if we have other English titles and whether we
> could send them copies of those as well as more copies of R and
> C.
> So for those of you who are now in Bangkok and would like to
> make merit take your chance!
> The Address is
> U Han Htay
> International Buddhist University
> NO.98 , 46th street
> Yangoon
> Myanmar
>
>


 
 
2231 From:  
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 8:50pm
Subject: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  An uncle of mine died a few weeks ago. Such events prompt sadness, 
which is an unpleasant mental sensation. It SEEMS to be rooted in 
craving for something that isn't there, but Abhidhammatha Sangaha 
indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either pleasant or neutral. 
Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so?

I can see how aversion to the new conditions without the loved one 
might arise, but the feeling really seems to be more rooted in craving 
than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha correctly? 

Because the Abhidhamma presents such complex ideas in such a clear, 
simple way, there are bound to be other ways to organize and classify 
the same information that might be equally valid. However, part of 
what makes Abhidhamma work so well is that it has the imprimature of 
Buddha himself. Other Abhidhammas--even ones that were equally 
valid--would not be such worthy vehicles for faith. So, help me to 
understand "craving for things not present" as "aversion."

 
2232 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Dear dhd5,
Your questions and comments (in all your correspondence incl.
t.gem) shows your sincerity, confidence, understanding AND your
wish to understand more. I think these qualities are shared by
others on this forum and when I see it I am inspired too. Thank
you. I hope Kom, Mike and others will also reply to this most
useful post.
---  wrote: > An uncle of mine died a few weeks
ago. 

Condolences on your loss.

Such events prompt
> sadness, 
> which is an unpleasant mental sensation.
 
Unpleasant mental sensation - dukkha vedana can be grouped into
two types. 
The first type is bodily unpleasant feeling and is actually
akusala vipaka (unpleasant result) through the body sense. This
can be very slight(eg sitting on slightly hard chair) or
extremely severe painful feeling.
The other type is not vipaka (result) but is the unpleasant
feeling (domanassa vedana) that accompanies the different types
of dosa -mula -citta (consciousness rooted in aversion).


It SEEMS to be rooted
> in 
> craving for something that isn't there, but Abhidhammatha
> Sangaha 
> indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either pleasant or
> neutral. 
> Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so?


Yes, mourning is always rooted in dosa(ill-will). It is in fact
dosa - mula-citta which is always accompanied by domanassa
vedana (unpleasant feeling).  
> 
> I can see how aversion to the new conditions without the loved
> one 
> might arise, but the feeling really seems to be more rooted in
> craving 
> than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha correctly? 

Craving is a strong condition that supports the dosa (ill-will)
to arise. You want your uncle back - this is craving but because
this cannot happen there is immediate ill-will. 
It happens so fast - during the actual moments of craving there
is no unpleasant feeling but in a split second there can be so
many processes.  Craving, ill-will, craving, ill-will, craving,
ill-will. The ill-will (dosa), if it is strong, is accompanied
by equally strong unpleasant feeling. And this feeling will be
dominant and the neutral feeling (mostly)that is arising
intermittantly with the craving will not be noticed.
 However, our "job" is to learn about these matters, even under
these difficult circumstances. There can be direct study now of
these dhammas (eg dosa, unpleasant feeling, craving) and if this
is done in the right way (without looking for any results) you
may begin to see this, to some extent, as it really is. Then
your confidence in Abhidhamma with grow even firmer. 



> 
> Because the Abhidhamma presents such complex ideas in such a
> clear, 
> simple way, there are bound to be other ways to organize and
> classify 
> the same information that might be equally valid. However,
> part of 
> what makes Abhidhamma work so well is that it has the
> imprimature of 
> Buddha himself. Other Abhidhammas--even ones that were equally
> 
> valid--would not be such worthy vehicles for faith. 

So pleased to hear this expression of confidence in the Buddha's
Dhamma. (I don't know if there could be other equally valid ones
though?)
anumodana
Robert



 
2233 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 10:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dana to Myanmar?

 
  Dear sukin,
 `I read in a commentary that one should not delay when doing
good. We should think "let me be first to do it" and one should
take every opportunity. You are like that.
I don't know about other books but I know they have over a
thousand copies of Realities and Concepts left at the
foundation. So if anyone else wants to send more these might be
the book to go for. It is so expensive to send though. I was
amazed that it costs the same to send a parcel to Burma
(neighbour to Thailand) as it does to England! Still they
appreciate Abhidhamma there and English books on Dhamma are
scarce and much appreciated. Also very few people have internet
so they can't read the material on the web. I think it is very
worthwhile to send them to this address where they are likely to
be distributed in a most useful way.
Robert
ps Sukin - I hope you are can meet with sarah and the group when
they get back from cambodia.

--- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote: > Dear
group,
> I have taken the chance to do merit as suggested by Robert, by
> visiting the foundation today and obtaining some books and
> sent
> them to U Han Htay in Myanmar.
> Fearing that I might be taking too many copies from a limited
> amount of stock, I chose to take and send the following:-
> 10 copies of 'Realities and concepts'.
> 20 copies each of the 'Mental development' series.
> 10 copies of 'Abhidhamma in Daily life'.
> 20 copies of the 'Letters'
> 20 copies of the thin grey book the name of which I don't
> remember.
> This I mention in case if anyone who might have a better
> estimate of
> the stock of books at the foundation, might see the
> possibility of
> sending more copies and do it.
> 
> Sukin.
> 
> Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:
> 
> > Dear group,
> > I sent a parcel of books (30 copies of Realities and
> Concepts,
> > Boriharnawanaket) to Burma (Bhikkhu Bodhi gave me the
> address
> > and said they would appeciate it).
> > It was to the International Buddhist University in Rangoon.
> > I got a nice letter back today.
> > "thank you for the valuable package. We are now teaching
> > vipassana and satipatthana and the subject of 'Realities and
> > concepts' is very informative and useful to us. As we are
> > teaching Nuns and bhikkhus also at the "sukra Theravada
> > university" we can also distribute these books there. This
> book
> > helps us with mental development in daily life. many
> thanks!"
> > They then ask if we have other English titles and whether we
> > could send them copies of those as well as more copies of R
> and
> > C.
> > So for those of you who are now in Bangkok and would like to
> > make merit take your chance!
> > The Address is
> > U Han Htay
> > International Buddhist University
> > NO.98 , 46th street
> > Yangoon
> > Myanmar
> >
> >
> 



 
2234 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 10:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia

 
  Dear jaran,
Lovely to hear from you and thanks for the informative letter. I
hope you will be a regular contributor to the list. 
Yes, Acharn sujin is so helpful to let us understand that
Abhidhamma is not in the book - it is happening right now at
this moment. Whether we feel happy, sad, restless, calm,
confused or clear- it is simply dhammas and can be comprehended
as it is, as conditioned phenomena, not us.
Robert
--- jaran jai-nhuknan  wrote: > Hello from
Cambodia:
> 
> This is Jaran along with Nina, Amara, Sarah, Jonathan, Jack,
> Oii, Ell and O
> (and her husband Chai). We are on a Dhamma trip to Cambodia
> with Tan A. Sujin.
> 
> We have been , to say the least, overwhelmed by the enthusiasm
> of the
> Cambodians and the Dhamma we heard from the mouth of Tan A.
> Sujin. Questions
> for the audience and Tan A. Sujin's answers are profound.
> 
> On the first session with Cambodians (more than thousand of
> them), she talks
> about the three kinds of dhukka: physical suffering and
> unhappiness, the
> changing of happiness and the impermanence of all dhamma.
> These three and
> realized by different level of panna. (more later).
> 
> I met Nina, Jonathan, Sarah and Amara for the first time. They
> are great! We
> are holding English sessions daily. Yesterday, we talked about
> something very
> important (for me at least): the ''right study". The key is
> one has to know
> what will help the arise of the awareness of THIS moment here
> and now. And one
> has to know one's limit of understanding HERE and NOW.
> 



 
2235 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 10:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Hi,

As Robert mentioned, the mental unpleasantness (domanassa vedana) can
only arise with aversion (dosa).  Dosa has the characteristic of being
coarse, inflexible, unbending, not a suitable condition for kusala
citta to be arising with it.  Dosa arise because of the attachments
toward the 5 senses and their objects (kamakun 5): seeing, hearing,
tasting, smelling, and touching.  Only when there is no attachment to
the kamakun 5 that dosa will have no condition for arising (for Anagami
pugala, for arupa brahma).

Mourning is most likely a diverse set of cittas: one that cognizes the
good of the person who passes away (kusala), one that is attached to
the person's sight, sound, smell, and touch (akusala) or other that we
are associated as the person's, one that rises with dosa because of the
attachment (akusala), etc.  

If we remember what abhidhamma is: the truth, then there is no other
way to explain an event.  That's simply how it works.  It's only the
question of whether or not the explainer can explain the truth as it
truly is: the way the Buddha does.

Anumoddhana for your search of the truth.

kom

---  wrote:
> An uncle of mine died a few weeks ago. Such events prompt sadness, 
> which is an unpleasant mental sensation. It SEEMS to be rooted in 
> craving for something that isn't there, but Abhidhammatha Sangaha 
> indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either pleasant or neutral.
> 
> Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so?
> 
> I can see how aversion to the new conditions without the loved one 
> might arise, but the feeling really seems to be more rooted in
> craving 
> than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha correctly? 
> 
> Because the Abhidhamma presents such complex ideas in such a clear, 
> simple way, there are bound to be other ways to organize and classify
> 
> the same information that might be equally valid. However, part of 
> what makes Abhidhamma work so well is that it has the imprimature of 
> Buddha himself. Other Abhidhammas--even ones that were equally 
> valid--would not be such worthy vehicles for faith. So, help me to 
> understand "craving for things not present" as "aversion."



 
2236 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 11:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Friends,

Would a simple way to express this be that the
domanassa vedana here accompanies dosa *conditioned
by* lobha?  Thanks in advance for corrections.

Dhd5, may you and your family be well and happy and
free from suffering, and know peace.

mn

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> As Robert mentioned, the mental unpleasantness
> (domanassa vedana) can
> only arise with aversion (dosa).  Dosa has the
> characteristic of being
> coarse, inflexible, unbending, not a suitable
> condition for kusala
> citta to be arising with it.  Dosa arise because of
> the attachments
> toward the 5 senses and their objects (kamakun 5):
> seeing, hearing,
> tasting, smelling, and touching.  Only when there is
> no attachment to
> the kamakun 5 that dosa will have no condition for
> arising (for Anagami
> pugala, for arupa brahma).
> 
> Mourning is most likely a diverse set of cittas: one
> that cognizes the
> good of the person who passes away (kusala), one
> that is attached to
> the person's sight, sound, smell, and touch
> (akusala) or other that we
> are associated as the person's, one that rises with
> dosa because of the
> attachment (akusala), etc.  
> 
> If we remember what abhidhamma is: the truth, then
> there is no other
> way to explain an event.  That's simply how it
> works.  It's only the
> question of whether or not the explainer can explain
> the truth as it
> truly is: the way the Buddha does.
> 
> Anumoddhana for your search of the truth.
> 
> kom
> 
> ---  wrote:
> > An uncle of mine died a few weeks ago. Such events
> prompt sadness, 
> > which is an unpleasant mental sensation. It SEEMS
> to be rooted in 
> > craving for something that isn't there, but
> Abhidhammatha Sangaha 
> > indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either
> pleasant or neutral.
> > 
> > Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so?
> > 
> > I can see how aversion to the new conditions
> without the loved one 
> > might arise, but the feeling really seems to be
> more rooted in
> > craving 
> > than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha
> correctly? 
> > 
> > Because the Abhidhamma presents such complex ideas
> in such a clear, 
> > simple way, there are bound to be other ways to
> organize and classify
> > 
> > the same information that might be equally valid.
> However, part of 
> > what makes Abhidhamma work so well is that it has
> the imprimature of 
> > Buddha himself. Other Abhidhammas--even ones that
> were equally 
> > valid--would not be such worthy vehicles for
> faith. So, help me to 
> > understand "craving for things not present" as
> "aversion."
> 
> 
> 



 
 
2237 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 2:15am
Subject: Re: Mulapariyaya sutta

 
  Dear Gayan et al.:

Copies of Bhikku Bodhi's 'Mulapariyaya' with commentary are on the 
way to Gayan, Alex and myself.  If anyone else would like a copy, 
please send your mailing address to:

	ProtectID

If you've already sent me your address and I've mislaid it, my 
apologies.  Please send it again and I'll get off a copy to you right 
away.

p.s.

---   wrote:

> when it comes to papanca, its a perversion of vitakkas,
> ['advanced' version of vitakkas]

is 'papanca' the word sometimes translated as 'proliferation(s)'?

Thanks again...

mn

 
2238 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 4:34am
Subject: Some thoughts

 
  Hello everybody,

Thank you for the welcome's. I thought to make some
comments as a way to begin some input into any discussions. 
It seems Cambodia is a wholesome place!

In this lifetime, I have had experiences which have caused
the questioning of what it is to be in this world. I
was not born into comfort and acceptance, and so I did not
become contented into a fixed identity that a family
can provide, for example. Of course, I did develop attachments to a
"self" that were promoted through my upbringing, but
these were not very productive- the word akusala seems
fitting. In reality, no attachment seems productive, though
is it right to say that some produce better results towards
achieving nibbaana?

For many years, I assumed I was a substantial unity,
an autonomous individual with reason and unreason. I struggled
to find something to explain my humanity, my psychology.
I looked towards religions, self-development philosophies, etc,
but all seemed to promote a "self" to be attained and to
be practiced in certain ways. It seemed as if I was trapped
within "games of truth". They all seemed to say that they
knew how to play the "game of life", and that it had to be played
by their rules to win. How confusing! Actually, if I was to
elaborate on these "selves" with the use of an ancient Greek
concept: logos. All promoted a logos, a "master of truth"
within that is developed, which commands, and silences the
"barking dogs" of fear and doubt.

Then I discovered "social construction". This is the recognition
of how humans are shaped by the time they live in, as well as
by the culture, the body, the society, the community, the
social institutions, the geographic location, the family, 
the technologies, the language, and the social relationships 
they are a part of.In short, their accumulated conditions. Therefore, 
even our experiences of the six-doors vary, for example, aquired tastes.

Studying ideas related to such things as social construction,
I have come to realise how I have been conditioned to take things
for granted for the mere fact that they were all I had known,
such as the view of myself as a substantial unity. The history of
many things that are taken for granted as natural, upon examination,
creates an awakening. It seems that throughout my life I have been
docile to what it has presented. With this awareness, I have been
lead to this moment in the present which promotes the grappling
of Dhamma study, or Thervada buddhism.Although, I have come to be
quite lobha to critical thinking, almost to the point of
skeptism, I sense that this will dissipate the more I Dhamma study.

I'm not overstating when I say "lead" either. In recent academic work, 
I grappled with ultimate realities. With the hybrid of information I had
accumulated, I presented two: the discursive and the non-discursive.
Having never read any books by Nina, I was astounded by the parallels
between the above in relation to nama and rupa. Yet, I don't proclaim
to have grasped nama and rupa, but from the basic introduction as far,
there are definite similarities between nama and the discursive mentioned
above, and rupa- and the non- discursive. Well that's all for now, its
been pleasant sitting here and trying to be aware of the citta, cetasika,
and the nama which have been and gone!

Be wholesome, Jody.

 
2239 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 11:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Some thoughts

 
  Dear jody, Thanks for the comments that help us to understand
you a little. See my comments below yours.
> Thank you for the welcome's. I thought to make some
> comments as a way to begin some input into any discussions. 
> It seems Cambodia is a wholesome place!

Does seem that way. They are so poor but the Buddha once noted
that such things as loss of wealth, loss of health, even loss of
children and spouse are trifling matters. But loss of wisdom is
a great loss. Those in cambodia are gaining; accumulating that
which is priceless. 

> In this lifetime, I have had experiences which have caused
> the questioning of what it is to be in this world. I
> was not born into comfort and acceptance, and so I did not
> become contented into a fixed identity that a family
> can provide, for example. Of course, I did develop attachments
> to a
> "self" that were promoted through my upbringing, but
> these were not very productive- the word akusala seems
> fitting. In reality, no attachment seems productive, though
> is it right to say that some produce better results towards
> achieving nibbaana?

The only way that attachment (tanha and upadana) helps is as a
pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural-decisive support condition).
So, for example, someone sees there life is "shit" and wants to
find a way out. So they look for paths that will help. There may
be much desire(tanha), but by  looking they might come across
the Buddha's teaching. However, conditions are never singular,
there are other factors such as kamma-paccaya and vipaka-
paccaya, that are needed before it can come about that one will
meet Saddhamma (true Dhamma). If these conditions are not
present one will search with great energy and tanha and settle
for either a non- buddhist path or an imitation of dhamma.
Further than this  once one does find correct teaching if it is
not seen that tanha, desire, hinders the path, one is liable to
cling to subtle wrong practice and views; always studying and
practising with a sense of self and control. Thus
tanha(atachment, desire) is a major danger, is samudaya -sacca,
the cause of dukkha(suffering).


> For many years, I assumed I was a substantial unity,
> an autonomous individual with reason and unreason. I struggled
> to find something to explain my humanity, my psychology.
> I looked towards religions, self-development philosophies,
> etc,
> but all seemed to promote a "self" to be attained and to
> be practiced in certain ways. It seemed as if I was trapped
> within "games of truth". They all seemed to say that they
> knew how to play the "game of life", and that it had to be
> played
> by their rules to win. How confusing! Actually, if I was to
> elaborate on these "selves" with the use of an ancient Greek
> concept: logos. All promoted a logos, a "master of truth"
> within that is developed, which commands, and silences the
> "barking dogs" of fear and doubt.

Yes it is all simply concepts, mannati, papanca. 

> 
> Then I discovered "social construction". This is the
> recognition
> of how humans are shaped by the time they live in, as well as
> by the culture, the body, the society, the community, the
> social institutions, the geographic location, the family, 
> the technologies, the language, and the social relationships 
> they are a part of. In short, their accumulated conditions.

Yes, this helps people realise that even their ideas and
thinking are simply conditioned phenomena. It is still too
limited because they only think about this brief life and that
cannot explain the differences that we see. It has all being
going on for countless aeons. It is not simply chance
happenings.
You were born in new zealand and so accumulated some of the
ideas existent in that culture, but because of experiences and
development also in other lives it happens that you are now
intrigued by Buddhism. And this  will condition future interest
and experiences. 
I was reading over the Therigatha yesterday, this is the stories
of the leading Nuns in the Buddha's time. It says in the
therigatha-atthakatha talking about Theri sundari nanda that at
the time of the Buddha Padumuttara "she heard the doctrine
preached...she accumulated merit for one hundred thousand aeons
(one aeon is billions of years or more) journeying on among
devas and men." Finally she attained under this Buddha. The
Theri Sukkha heard the Buddha Vipassi. She gained faith, went
forth, was one of great learning, expert in the doctrine and
possessed of intelligence. Similarly at the time of the Blessed
one Sikhi and the Blessed one Vessabhu she observed virtuous
conduct and was one of great learning and one expert in the
Dhamma. Similarly she went forth in the teaching of Kakusandha,
Konagama and Kassapa Buddha's, and she was one of pure virtuos
conduct, one of great learning, and one who preached the
doctrine..In this buddha era she went forth under Dhammadina and
finally became arahant." The time between even one buddha is
immense but conditions are carried on citta to citta.



> Therefore, 
> even our experiences of the six-doors vary, for example,
> aquired tastes.

There are three rounds : kamma-vatta(action),
vipaka-vatta(result) and kilesa-vatta (defilements such as
greed, aversion ignorance). the actual moments of experience
through the doorways are vipaka (result) but immediately there
is reaction (partly by "acquired taste") which is defilement and
this conditions kamma. These rounds are all spinning now,
continually, as they always have in samasara. The Buddha's path
analyses and untangles these rounds and eventually brings them
all to a halt.

> 
> Studying ideas related to such things as social construction,
> I have come to realise how I have been conditioned to take
> things
> for granted for the mere fact that they were all I had known,
> such as the view of myself as a substantial unity. The history
> of
> many things that are taken for granted as natural, upon
> examination,
> creates an awakening. It seems that throughout my life I have
> been
> docile to what it has presented. With this awareness, I have
> been
> lead to this moment in the present which promotes the
> grappling
> of Dhamma study, or Thervada buddhism.Although, I have come to
> be
> quite lobha to critical thinking, almost to the point of
> skeptism, I sense that this will dissipate the more I Dhamma
> study.

In the end it is not so much critical thinking that is needed as
direct study of paramattha dhammas, the physical(rupa) and
mental(nam) phenomena that are arising now. But right
contemplation helps us to differentiate and understand what
these namas and rupas are.

> 
> I'm not overstating when I say "lead" either. In recent
> academic work, 
> I grappled with ultimate realities. With the hybrid of
> information I had
> accumulated, I presented two: the discursive and the
> non-discursive.
> Having never read any books by Nina, I was astounded by the
> parallels
> between the above in relation to nama and rupa. Yet, I don't
> proclaim
> to have grasped nama and rupa, but from the basic introduction
> as far,
> there are definite similarities between nama and the
> discursive mentioned
> above, and rupa- and the non- discursive. Well that's all for
> now, its
> been pleasant sitting here and trying to be aware of the
> citta, cetasika,
> and the nama which have been and gone!
> 
 
keep up the good work Jody!
Best wishes
Robert


 
2240 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 11:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Some thoughts

 
  Dear Jodi,

Thanks for your compassionate post..


rgds

 
2241 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 11:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mulapariyaya sutta

 
  Dear Mike

u asked -> "
is 'papanca' the word sometimes translated as 'proliferation(s)'?
"

Yes sir


rgds.

 
2242 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 7:26pm
Subject: Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Robert, you wrote:
> So pleased to hear this expression of confidence in the Buddha's
> Dhamma. (I don't know if there could be other equally valid ones
> though?)
I'm confident that there could be equally valid expressions of 
abhidhamma. After all, abhidhamma is just a description of some 
extraordinarily complex phenomena. On top of that, it is a short and 
simple description [yes, I know it sometimes may seem like a long and 
complicated description, especially given the length and intracacy of 
the Patthana, but it really is like a handful of leaves in a forest 
:) ]. In my experience, complicated phenomena can always be described 
adequately in a number of different ways. Buddha was famous for 
giving descriptions and lessons tailored to meet the needs of the 
people he was teaching at the time. If he were alive today, would his 
Abhidhamma be the same as the one he taught 2500 years ago? Or would 
his handful of leaves look different? I think there is little doubt it 
would look different, but we can't know what "our" abhidhamma would 
look like. People's understanding of the Dhamma decays as the time of 
the Buddha gets farther and farther away. Perhaps this is in part due 
to the teachings being geared toward the ears that abounded 2500 years 
ago...

 
2243 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 7:31pm
Subject: Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  > Would a simple way to express this be that the
> domanassa vedana here accompanies dosa *conditioned
> by* lobha?  Thanks in advance for corrections.
Thank you for your kind words. 

If the dosa is "conditioned by" lobha, wherefore dosa as "root"?

 
2244 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 7:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Dear dhd5,
I think I read a passage somewhere that indicates all the
buddhas of the past teach basically the same things (although
some taught less vinaya because there disciples were ones who so
quickly became enlightened that the patimokkha wasn't
necessary).
When it comes to the Abhidhamma in particular, which describes
actual fundamental phenomena, how could it be taught in a
different way? Dosa, aversion is dosa. We could call it by a
diferent name but it is still the same thing. Lobha, moha etc.,
and also the physical phenomena  cannot be divided into anything
more basic or have their characteristics changed.
 
I don't know what others think about this. 

You wrote that he Dhamma was geared for ears 2500 years ago. But
those ears had the same experience- various sounds - as ours
right now. Anyone who could understand sound as sound and
penetrate the difference between sound (rupa) and hearing (nama)
could become enlightened. It is the same now and will be in the
future too.  

Many of the sutta are teachings tailored specifically for the
listener but I think the Abhidhamma, because it deals in
fundamental phenomenena, is suited for all who wish to listen.
Robert 
---  wrote: > Robert, you wrote:
> > So pleased to hear this expression of confidence in the
> Buddha's
> > Dhamma. (I don't know if there could be other equally valid
> ones
> > though?)
> I'm confident that there could be equally valid expressions of
> 
> abhidhamma. After all, abhidhamma is just a description of
> some 
> extraordinarily complex phenomena. On top of that, it is a
> short and 
> simple description [yes, I know it sometimes may seem like a
> long and 
> complicated description, especially given the length and
> intracacy of 
> the Patthana, but it really is like a handful of leaves in a
> forest 
> :) ]. In my experience, complicated phenomena can always be
> described 
> adequately in a number of different ways. Buddha was famous
> for 
> giving descriptions and lessons tailored to meet the needs of
> the 
> people he was teaching at the time. If he were alive today,
> would his 
> Abhidhamma be the same as the one he taught 2500 years ago? Or
> would 
> his handful of leaves look different? I think there is little
> doubt it 
> would look different, but we can't know what "our" abhidhamma
> would 
> look like. People's understanding of the Dhamma decays as the
> time of 
> the Buddha gets farther and farther away. Perhaps this is in
> part due 
> to the teachings being geared toward the ears that abounded
> 2500 years 
> ago...
> 



 
2245 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 8:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Dear Robert,

Digha Nikaya, Sampasadaniya Sutta also talks about the teachings of
Buddhas, past, present, and future.  I didn't see the English
translation on the web.

kom
--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> I think I read a passage somewhere that indicates all the
> buddhas of the past teach basically the same things (although
> some taught less vinaya because there disciples were ones who so
> quickly became enlightened that the patimokkha wasn't
> necessary).



 
2246 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 8:53pm
Subject: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Asserting that there can be other, different, but equally valid 
expressions of Abhidhamma is not at all the same thing as speculating 
on what they might look like. 

I could envision some value to such a discussion: Talk and talk and 
think about what an alternative might be. Come up with some 
possibilities. Shoot those down. Put forth some more. Have some people 
accept some and others accept others and some accept none. Rancor and 
division arise. Then: Some who did not realize it before then realize 
that we already have a rich and beautiful abhidhamma and feel regret 
that they wasted time looking for an alternative. I can't imagine that 
the value of this would offset the costs in speculation about things 
non-path. I will resist the temptation.

It may be useful to think about the POSSIBILITY of alternative 
abhidhammas, though. Abhidhamma is just a description--albeit, a 
wondrous description, but a description nonetheless. As a 
biologist/statistician, I build models to describe complex phenomena 
is simpler language. What has become crystal clear is that no model 
can be a complete description of complex phenomena, and that different 
models can always be invoked to describe the same thing (provided that 
"thing" is something "real" and is inherently complex). One message 
that I get from Mulapariyaya sutta is that our words and conceptions 
of the world are models of the realities we experience. We note some 
phenomenon and create words to describe it. Then we keep adding layers 
of description and conception to it, all the while heaping more and 
more layers of interpretation onto it, making the original vision of 
it cloudier and cloudier. At the same time, our CONCEPTIONS become 
clearer and clearer, and we put more and more faith in the 
conceptions, cling to the conceptions, and become blind to the 
reality we originally experienced. The mind is so adept at this 
process that it does it with great rapidity, constantly, and we are 
usually not even aware that this is what we are doing. Our conceptions 
get in the way of seeing reality as it truly is.

The words of the abhidhamma are ultimately words, models of the 
reality that we experience. The reality is sufficiently complex that 
alternative models and formulations are certainly possible. So what? I 
certainly can't create a decent alternative to our abhidhamma, and I 
don't think any non-Buddha can. However, at times it can be very 
helpful to note that the abhidhamma descibes a conception of dhammas 
(a la Mulapariyaya), and we must be on guard against letting the model 
get in the way of progress on the path. At some points in the 
practice, it is necessary to set aside the abhidhamma concepts because 
they can cloud the vision of reality as it really is. This is not to 
say that abhidhamma is not a beautiful model (it most decidedly 
is--the best I've seen by far), but that it is indeed just a model. 
Other, equally valid formulations are possible. Knowing that may make 
it easier to transcend the words and formulation of abhidhamma so that 
we may actually and directly understand "our" experience of the 
realities that abhidhamma describes.

What might an alternative formulation of abhidhamma look like? It 
doesn't matter. The formulation we have is very helpful in elucidating 
the path, but in the end, any formulation must be suspended for 
vipassana to arise.

I hope this helps.


> I think I read a passage somewhere that indicates all the
> buddhas of the past teach basically the same things (although
> some taught less vinaya because there disciples were ones who so
> quickly became enlightened that the patimokkha wasn't
> necessary).
> When it comes to the Abhidhamma in particular, which describes
> actual fundamental phenomena, how could it be taught in a
> different way? Dosa, aversion is dosa. We could call it by a
> diferent name but it is still the same thing. Lobha, moha etc.,
> and also the physical phenomena  cannot be divided into anything
> more basic or have their characteristics changed.
>  
> I don't know what others think about this. 
> 
> You wrote that he Dhamma was geared for ears 2500 years ago. But
> those ears had the same experience- various sounds - as ours
> right now. Anyone who could understand sound as sound and
> penetrate the difference between sound (rupa) and hearing (nama)
> could become enlightened. It is the same now and will be in the
> future too.  
> 
> Many of the sutta are teachings tailored specifically for the
> listener but I think the Abhidhamma, because it deals in
> fundamental phenomenena, is suited for all who wish to listen.

 
2247 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 9:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Dear Mike (MN),

I think you would be right with the simplification.  When I was reading
your reply, I started to wonder: what kind of conditions (pacaya)?

Lobha can be a pakatupanissaya pacaya for dosa; Robert talked about
lobha as a pakatupanissaya pacaya (not for dosa) recently.  Lobha can
also be aramana pacaya (sense-object) for the lobha.  There are most
likely others.  It is not clear to me what pacaya(s), specifically,
apply to the case of attachment (lobha) toward kamakun 5 being a
conditioning dhamma to dosa.

On the other hand, there is also an answer in the way of
patichasamudpada (the rebirth cycle), i.e.,
avijja (ignorance) -> sankhara (cetana in javana citta) -> vinyana
(vinyana khandda [all cittas]/ patisanti [birth] citta) -> ayatana
(conditioning dhammas causing citta to arise) -> nama rupa -> phassa
(phassa cetasika: contact of nama and aramana) -> vedana (feeling
cetasika) -> tanha (lobha) -> upadana (attachments to the khandas) ->
plane of existence (level of citta?) -> jati (birth in a plane) ->
birth, old age, death, sorrow, ???, domanassa, lamentation.

And also in the Four Noble Truths:
dukkha (citta, cetasikas, and rupa, as results, including domanassa and
dosa)
dukkha samudaya (lobha, as cause)
dukkha niroda (nibhana, as "result" [not in the way of being
conditioned])
dukkha niroda kamanipatipada (the 8-fold paths, cetasikas, as cause)

I am just parroting here, without much understanding...

kom

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Friends,
> 
> Would a simple way to express this be that the
> domanassa vedana here accompanies dosa *conditioned
> by* lobha?  Thanks in advance for corrections.
> 
> Dhd5, may you and your family be well and happy and
> free from suffering, and know peace.
> 
> mn
> 


 
2248 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 9:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Dear Kom and dhd5,
Kom, thanks for the reminder about Sampasadaniya Sutta. I don't
have it to hand but in this Sariputta expressed his absolute
confidence that none could be wiser than the Buddha and
explained that although he had no direct knowledge of past
buddha's that they must all have developed the very same path
via satipatthana, the factors of enlightenment and so on.
         
dhd5, 
I pretty much agree with what you said so will just highlight a
few points:
---  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> abhidhammas, though. Abhidhamma is just a description--albeit,
> a 
> wondrous description, but a description nonetheless. 

YES. So true. This is sometimes forgotton by we Abhidhamma
aficianado's.

One
> message 
> that I get from Mulapariyaya sutta is that our words and
> conceptions 
> of the world are models of the realities we experience. We
> note some 
> phenomenon and create words to describe it. Then we keep
> adding layers 
> of description and conception to it, all the while heaping
> more and 
> more layers of interpretation onto it, making the original
> vision of 
> it cloudier and cloudier. At the same time, our CONCEPTIONS
> become 
> clearer and clearer, and we put more and more faith in the 
> conceptions, cling to the conceptions, and become blind to the
> 
> reality we originally experienced. The mind is so adept at
> this 
> process that it does it with great rapidity, constantly, and
> we are 
> usually not even aware that this is what we are doing. Our
> conceptions 
> get in the way of seeing reality as it truly is.
> 
> The words of the abhidhamma are ultimately words, models of
> the 
> reality that we experience. The reality is sufficiently
> complex that 
> alternative models and formulations are certainly possible. So
> what? I 
> certainly can't create a decent alternative to our abhidhamma,
> and I 
> don't think any non-Buddha can. However, at times it can be
> very 
> helpful to note that the abhidhamma descibes a conception of
> dhammas 
> (a la Mulapariyaya), and we must be on guard against letting
> the model 
> get in the way of progress on the path. At some points in the 
> practice, it is necessary to set aside the abhidhamma concepts
> because 
> they can cloud the vision of reality as it really is. This is
> not to 
> say that abhidhamma is not a beautiful model (it most
> decidedly 
> is--the best I've seen by far), but that it is indeed just a
> model. 

So far I basically agree.

> Other, equally valid formulations are possible. 

I still don't see how. The abhidhamma talks about many different
dhammas that they say are fundamental. If we look at just one
for example, dosa (aversion). How can we formulate it
differently. I think all we can do is descibe it in different
ways (as the commenatries do) but the actual reality is simply
what is- that dhamma that is averse. Whether we call it by
different names, whether it happens now or a thousand years in
the future it is simply that dhamma. The Abhidhamma, at least as
I see it, is not so much book knowledge as a very precise
description of such dhammas. I don't think it can be any simpler
than it is because it describes these basic dhammas. I agree we
can take the Abhidhamma in the wrong way and use it to build up
a conceptual scheme, and that would certainly fit within the
mulapariyaya sutta. But this is not necessarily so.

Knowing that
> may make 
> it easier to transcend the words and formulation of abhidhamma
> so that 
> we may actually and directly understand "our" experience of
> the 
> realities that abhidhamma describes.
> 
> What might an alternative formulation of abhidhamma look like?
> It 
> doesn't matter. The formulation we have is very helpful in
> elucidating 
> the path, but in the end, any formulation must be suspended
> for 
> vipassana to arise.

The moments of insight are beyond any concept for sure but do we
need to suspend anything? Some might hear this and think they
had to stop thinking or make their mind "blank" before insight
can arise. I think the various cetasikas (mental factors) of the
eightfactored path work their way and penetrate the true nature
of dhammas only if "we" are out of the way. Are we really out of
the way if we have an idea of suspending any ideas "we" have?
There might still be an idea of control, a slight idea that we
can arrange this to happen.
I am not saying you mean this and in fact I do think for most of
us(abhidhmamma people) some of the time, and some of us all of
the time, there is real attachment to the concepts of
Abhidhamma. This must hinder direct insight especially if one
imagines such thinking  is real insight. 

robert





 
2249 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 9:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  If I understand this correctly, it would be dosa-mula
(rooted) citta conditioned by lobha-mula citta.  That
is, the dosa would arise because of the impermanence
of the object of clinging.  Does this sound right?

mn

---  wrote:
> > Would a simple way to express this be that the
> > domanassa vedana here accompanies dosa
> *conditioned
> > by* lobha?  Thanks in advance for corrections.
> Thank you for your kind words. 
> 
> If the dosa is "conditioned by" lobha, wherefore
> dosa as "root"?
> 
> 



 
2250 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 10:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Dear dhd5 and Robert,

dhd5, thanks for this elucidating argument about modeling and
realities.  

Robert, let me take dhd5's viewpoint here.  Let me make an analogy for
non-abhidhamma realities first.  A model is something you conceive
about how things work.  A model, more often than not, simplifies how
things work.  For example, the Newtonian law models how objects behave
with each other's presence.  However, it doesn't fully capture how that
really works: it starts breaking down in very small and very fast
objects.  If you hold in you mind that Newtonian laws are infallible,
when you see the evidence of its breaking down, you may not recognize
it as realities (well, not the abhidhamma).

Newtonian laws are precise mathematical laws.  Things get worse when
you model something that is non-mathematical (using words to describe
the model).  Not only the model may mistakenly describe the realities
(again, non-abhidhamma), people understand the model (as intended by
the person describing it) differently.  In this case, you suffer double
inaccuracies, the model doesn't describe all situations, and people can
misunderstand the model.  If people hold on to the model, they may not
be able to accept realities as they truly are.

Now, let's talk about abhidhamma realities.  The buddha in fact
described many models about the realities: the pancakanddha, ayatana,
dhatu, poramatttha dhammas, paticasumudpaddah, the Four Noble Truths,
and others fitting the accumulations of the audience. The models
capture the different details of the realities, and shine different
lights on the realities.  The system is very complex, but taking the
buddha models, at face value, a person may oversimplify how things
truly work.  Holding on to the model, he may disregard realities even
when it appears to him.

The example I can see in this is even with the most detailed model of
realities.  89 cittas, 54 cetasikas, 28 rupa, 1 nibhana.  If I take
this model, without fully understanding it, I may misunderstand these
elements as sort of an atomic building block (with discrete values or
worse yet, binary values) with identical characteristics.  I may not
realize that the single cetasika (take upeka vedana) actually has
different (minute) characteristics from moment to moment.  Holding on
to such a view, the realization of the truth is prevented.

On the other end of mistaking the model is that the model is too
complexed for verifications.  Although all the realities may not appear
to a person, it is possible for the person to become enlightened.  An
unwise person may start having strange misconceptions (wrong-thinking)
because some realities don't appear to him.  

All in all, the minute characteristics of the realities are infinite. 
It takes the panna of a sammasambuddha to put it into understandable
models that aid a person toward the path.  There is nothing in the
model that doesn't represent realities: we don't suffer a double
inaccuracies here. On the other hand, we need to be on-guard about the
misunderstanding of the model because it may prevents realities from
being known.

kom


> I still don't see how. The abhidhamma talks about many different
> dhammas that they say are fundamental. If we look at just one
> for example, dosa (aversion). How can we formulate it
> differently. I think all we can do is descibe it in different
> ways (as the commenatries do) but the actual reality is simply
> what is- that dhamma that is averse. Whether we call it by
> different names, whether it happens now or a thousand years in
> the future it is simply that dhamma. The Abhidhamma, at least as
> I see it, is not so much book knowledge as a very precise
> description of such dhammas. I don't think it can be any simpler
> than it is because it describes these basic dhammas. I agree we
> can take the Abhidhamma in the wrong way and use it to build up
> a conceptual scheme, and that would certainly fit within the
> mulapariyaya sutta. But this is not necessarily so.
> 



 
2251 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 0:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Dear kom,
This is very good. I hope dhd5 will comment on this too. 
robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear dhd5 and
Robert,
> 
> dhd5, thanks for this elucidating argument about modeling and
> realities.  
> 
> Robert, let me take dhd5's viewpoint here.  Let me make an
> analogy for
> non-abhidhamma realities first.  A model is something you
> conceive
> about how things work.  A model, more often than not,
> simplifies how
> things work.  For example, the Newtonian law models how
> objects behave
> with each other's presence.  However, it doesn't fully capture
> how that
> really works: it starts breaking down in very small and very
> fast
> objects.  If you hold in you mind that Newtonian laws are
> infallible,
> when you see the evidence of its breaking down, you may not
> recognize
> it as realities (well, not the abhidhamma).
> 
> Newtonian laws are precise mathematical laws.  Things get
> worse when
> you model something that is non-mathematical (using words to
> describe
> the model).  Not only the model may mistakenly describe the
> realities
> (again, non-abhidhamma), people understand the model (as
> intended by
> the person describing it) differently.  In this case, you
> suffer double
> inaccuracies, the model doesn't describe all situations, and
> people can
> misunderstand the model.  If people hold on to the model, they
> may not
> be able to accept realities as they truly are.
> 
> Now, let's talk about abhidhamma realities.  The buddha in
> fact
> described many models about the realities: the pancakanddha,
> ayatana,
> dhatu, poramatttha dhammas, paticasumudpaddah, the Four Noble
> Truths,
> and others fitting the accumulations of the audience. The
> models
> capture the different details of the realities, and shine
> different
> lights on the realities.  The system is very complex, but
> taking the
> buddha models, at face value, a person may oversimplify how
> things
> truly work.  Holding on to the model, he may disregard
> realities even
> when it appears to him.
> 
> The example I can see in this is even with the most detailed
> model of
> realities.  89 cittas, 54 cetasikas, 28 rupa, 1 nibhana.  If I
> take
> this model, without fully understanding it, I may
> misunderstand these
> elements as sort of an atomic building block (with discrete
> values or
> worse yet, binary values) with identical characteristics.  I
> may not
> realize that the single cetasika (take upeka vedana) actually
> has
> different (minute) characteristics from moment to moment. 
> Holding on
> to such a view, the realization of the truth is prevented.
> 
> On the other end of mistaking the model is that the model is
> too
> complexed for verifications.  Although all the realities may
> not appear
> to a person, it is possible for the person to become
> enlightened.  An
> unwise person may start having strange misconceptions
> (wrong-thinking)
> because some realities don't appear to him.  
> 
> All in all, the minute characteristics of the realities are
> infinite. 
> It takes the panna of a sammasambuddha to put it into
> understandable
> models that aid a person toward the path.  There is nothing in
> the
> model that doesn't represent realities: we don't suffer a
> double
> inaccuracies here. On the other hand, we need to be on-guard
> about the
> misunderstanding of the model because it may prevents
> realities from
> being known.
> 
> kom
> 
> 
> > I still don't see how. The abhidhamma talks about many
> different
> > dhammas that they say are fundamental. If we look at just
> one
> > for example, dosa (aversion). How can we formulate it
> > differently. I think all we can do is descibe it in
> different
> > ways (as the commenatries do) but the actual reality is
> simply
> > what is- that dhamma that is averse. Whether we call it by
> > different names, whether it happens now or a thousand years
> in
> > the future it is simply that dhamma. The Abhidhamma, at
> least as
> > I see it, is not so much book knowledge as a very precise
> > description of such dhammas. I don't think it can be any
> simpler
> > than it is because it describes these basic dhammas. I agree
> we
> > can take the Abhidhamma in the wrong way and use it to build
> up
> > a conceptual scheme, and that would certainly fit within the
> > mulapariyaya sutta. But this is not necessarily so.
> > 
> 
> 



 
 
2252 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 2:46am
Subject: Re: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Dear Robert, you thoughtfully wrote:
> I still don't see how. The abhidhamma talks about many different
> dhammas that they say are fundamental. If we look at just one
> for example, dosa (aversion). How can we formulate it
> differently. 

As for me:
I'm satisfied with Buddha's/Sariputta's formulation, and I don't think 
a non-Buddha can convincingly argue a particular different 
formulation. A run-of-the-mill Arahant (my apologies to all you 
venerable Arahants reading this; you know what I mean by 
"run-of-the-mill" here) is so strongly guided by the wisdom as taught 
by our Buddha that it may not be possible even for him to break free 
of the familiar formulation. More importantly, it is not necessary to 
propose a particular alternative formulation. The possibility that 
other formulations (formulations of the whole system, not just an 
isolated word) could exist serves at least two functions: First, it 
facilitates tolerance and patience with those who APPARENTLY disagree 
with us. Second, it makes it a little easier to pierce some of the 
mind clutter that can veil the clean vision of dhamma.

I find that when my mind is filled with a fresh infusion of book 
knowledge, it is difficult not to perceive, say, dosa as "dosa," to 
conceive dosa as "dosa," and to conceive Myself in "dosa." With effort 
and with (temporal) distance from the conceiving that naturally arises 
with reading, the tendency to pile conception on conception is 
weakened, thereby making the arising of insight more likely.

On the other hand, without occasional infusions of book knowledge, 
there is the danger of losing sight of the direction of practice.

> The moments of insight are beyond any concept for sure but do we
> need to suspend anything? Some might hear this and think they
> had to stop thinking or make their mind "blank" before insight
> can arise. I think the various cetasikas (mental factors) of the
> eightfactored path work their way and penetrate the true nature
> of dhammas only if "we" are out of the way. Are we really out of
> the way if we have an idea of suspending any ideas "we" have?
"We" certainly don't "suspend" anything, but insight arises only when 
the conceptions are momentarily suspended. In review of the 
suspensions after the fact, the value of abhidhamma is clearly seen. 
However, it is also very helpful in directing us toward "suspension" 
(whether the insights are mundane vipassana nyana or supramundane). 
But maintaining a proper attitude toward abhidhamma and guarding 
against the proliferation of conceptions it can inspire is important. 
For some, knowing that other formulations are possible might help. For 
others, it might have the opposite effect by generating either doubt 
or dosa.

> There might still be an idea of control, a slight idea that we
> can arrange this to happen.
> I am not saying you mean this and in fact I do think for most of
> us(abhidhmamma people) some of the time, and some of us all of
> the time, there is real attachment to the concepts of
> Abhidhamma. This must hinder direct insight especially if one
> imagines such thinking  is real insight. 
I think we are in full agreement, with only minor differences.

 
2253 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 4:18am
Subject: Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  I don't know exactly what "root"(mula) means. In everyday language a 
mournful citta that arises after the passing away of a desired object 
would seem to have lobha as a "root" instead of dosa. But obviously 
this is not Abhidhamma. I understand the 
lobha-dosa-lobha-dosa/neutral-unpleasant-neutral-unpleasant 
conception, but where does "root" come in? Any Patthana afficionados 
out there that can help us?


> If I understand this correctly, it would be dosa-mula
> (rooted) citta conditioned by lobha-mula citta.  That
> is, the dosa would arise because of the impermanence
> of the object of clinging.  Does this sound right?
> 
> mn
> 
> ---  wrote:
> > > Would a simple way to express this be that the
> > > domanassa vedana here accompanies dosa
> > *conditioned
> > > by* lobha?  Thanks in advance for corrections.
> > Thank you for your kind words. 
> > 
> > If the dosa is "conditioned by" lobha, wherefore
> > dosa as "root"?
> > 

 
2254 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 4:27am
Subject: RE: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Kia koutou (hello everyone),

I find this discussion referring to the Abhidhamma interesting indeed. 

It is alluding to fundamental questions: can a priori speculations be made? 
Or is all perspective, relational and relative? It seems that there are many
possibilities to the shape that reality can take, and that things will
manifest
according to our a priori assumptions and consequenting actions. I can see
how
some would believe that all is mind, and others would be extreme
materialists!

I agree, ultimately, any version of Abhidhamma would have to be relinquished
for vipassana to arise. Otherwise, a person would be attached to the
operations
that the Abhidhamma entail. Simply operating within its confines, not
transcending
it to attain nibbaana, to become a araahat.

Remember, I'm just a beginner so please excuse any moha.

Just a question to the person from Cornell, the biologist. Have you
investigated
the workings of the Mandebrot set, etc. Now that's an interesting
mathmatical 
phenomena!

That's all.

 
2255 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 4:57am
Subject: Re: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Dear kom.
I enjoyed reading your post. I'd like to add a little.

You wrote:
> Now, let's talk about abhidhamma realities.  The buddha in fact
> described many models about the realities: the pancakanddha, 
ayatana,
> dhatu, poramatttha dhammas, paticasumudpaddah, the Four Noble 
Truths,
> and others fitting the accumulations of the audience. The models
> capture the different details of the realities, and shine different
> lights on the realities.  
We are so strongly tied to these particular models that we fail to see  
that in another time Buddha may have taught Five or Three noble 
truths, 15 links in paticca-samuppada, 7 pancakhandha, and 127 dhatu. 
It's fine to note this, but we can quickly get into trouble if we 
speculate too much on just what those "other" noble truths, links, 
etc. are. Some of the dangers would include developing obsession, 
getting it wrong, wasting time, and sowing seeds of doubt among 
others.

> All in all, the minute characteristics of the realities are 
infinite. 
> It takes the panna of a sammasambuddha to put it into understandable
> models that aid a person toward the path.  
Yup, and we feel deep gratitude to our Buddha and his loyal trooper 
Sariputta for giving us the gift of dhamma models in the Tipitika.

 
2256 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 4:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Dear Dhd5,

As I understand it, each citta is individually
'rooted', and arises and subsides completely with
incredible rapidity (along with it's 'root')--the
appearance of continuity due to each citta's
conditioning of the next citta and so on.  

So, again, the aversion-rooted citta is, I think,
conditioned (in part) by the impermanence (or loss, or
absence) of the object of the clinging-rooted citta. 
Make sense?

mn
---  wrote:
> I don't know exactly what "root"(mula) means. In
> everyday language a 
> mournful citta that arises after the passing away of
> a desired object 
> would seem to have lobha as a "root" instead of
> dosa. But obviously 
> this is not Abhidhamma. I understand the 
>
lobha-dosa-lobha-dosa/neutral-unpleasant-neutral-unpleasant
> 
> conception, but where does "root" come in? Any
> Patthana afficionados 
> out there that can help us?
> 
> 
> > If I understand this correctly, it would be
> dosa-mula
> > (rooted) citta conditioned by lobha-mula citta. 
> That
> > is, the dosa would arise because of the
> impermanence
> > of the object of clinging.  Does this sound right?
> > 
> > mn
> > 
> > ---  wrote:
> > > > Would a simple way to express this be that the
> > > > domanassa vedana here accompanies dosa
> > > *conditioned
> > > > by* lobha?  Thanks in advance for corrections.
> > > Thank you for your kind words. 
> > > 
> > > If the dosa is "conditioned by" lobha, wherefore
> > > dosa as "root"?
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 



 
2257 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 5:29am
Subject: Re: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  Dear Jody Paul, Pirret.
I'm am enjoying your fluid posts. Thanks!

Our vision is ordinarily clouded by delusion. We experience phenomena 
through Self-colored goggles, and it takes extraordinary wisdom to 
take those goggles off in order to understand the world as it really 
is. There is great danger in speculating about what the world would 
look like if only we weren't wearing the goggles. Therein lies the 
value of the Abhidhamma. It is a description of the world when the 
goggles are removed. We can study it, think about it, discuss it, 
write about it, and learn about it, but before we actually take the 
goggles off, it is all akin to looking at a map of Africa and watching 
a slide show of lions instead of going to Krueger and watching a lion 
as it stalks us from the tall grass. 

As Robert so clearly stated, relinquishing Abhidhamma is not something 
that we just "do." Why would we throw away such a great roadmap before 
arriving at the destination? Trying to would be a mistake. Instead, we 
just practice, practice, practice diligently and calmly, guided by 
Dhamma, by Abhidhamma, by suttas, by good friends, by insight, and by 
understanding. 

(Don't feel shy about moha, and don't feel bad if you get 
some blistering responses to your posts. Moha is something that we all 
share, and we are trying to help each other along. [My apologies to 
Arahants reading this--I wrongly assumed you would be doing something 
other than reading my posts :) ]).

> I agree, ultimately, any version of Abhidhamma would have to be 
relinquished
> for vipassana to arise. Otherwise, a person would be attached to the
> operations
> that the Abhidhamma entail. Simply operating within its confines, 
not
> transcending
> it to attain nibbaana, to become a araahat.
> 
> Remember, I'm just a beginner so please excuse any moha.
> 
> Just a question to the person from Cornell, the biologist. Have you
> investigated
> the workings of the Mandebrot set, etc. Now that's an interesting
> mathmatical 
> phenomena!
> 
> That's all.

 
2258 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 8:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  dear Jody,
I was thinking, with difficulty, on how to reply to your letter.
Fortunately I checked this post before vexing myself for long.
Apposite and well written. I applaud it.
Robert
---  wrote: > Dear Jody Paul, Pirret.
> I'm am enjoying your fluid posts. Thanks!
> 
> Our vision is ordinarily clouded by delusion. We experience
> phenomena 
> through Self-colored goggles, and it takes extraordinary
> wisdom to 
> take those goggles off in order to understand the world as it
> really 
> is. There is great danger in speculating about what the world
> would 
> look like if only we weren't wearing the goggles. Therein lies
> the 
> value of the Abhidhamma. It is a description of the world when
> the 
> goggles are removed. We can study it, think about it, discuss
> it, 
> write about it, and learn about it, but before we actually
> take the 
> goggles off, it is all akin to looking at a map of Africa and
> watching 
> a slide show of lions instead of going to Krueger and watching
> a lion 
> as it stalks us from the tall grass. 
> 
> As Robert so clearly stated, relinquishing Abhidhamma is not
> something 
> that we just "do." Why would we throw away such a great
> roadmap before 
> arriving at the destination? Trying to would be a mistake.
> Instead, we 
> just practice, practice, practice diligently and calmly,
> guided by 
> Dhamma, by Abhidhamma, by suttas, by good friends, by insight,
> and by 
> understanding. 
> 
> (Don't feel shy about moha, and don't feel bad if you get 
> some blistering responses to your posts. Moha is something
> that we all 
> share, and we are trying to help each other along. [My
> apologies to 
> Arahants reading this--I wrongly assumed you would be doing
> something 
> other than reading my posts :) ]).
> 
> > I agree, ultimately, any version of Abhidhamma would have to
> be 
> relinquished
> > for vipassana to arise. Otherwise, a person would be
> attached to the
> > operations
> > that the Abhidhamma entail. Simply operating within its
> confines, 
> not
> > transcending
> > it to attain nibbaana, to become a araahat.
> > 
> > Remember, I'm just a beginner so please excuse any moha.
> > 
> > Just a question to the person from Cornell, the biologist.
> Have you
> > investigated
> > the workings of the Mandebrot set, etc. Now that's an
> interesting
> > mathmatical 
> > phenomena!
> > 
> > That's all.
> 



 
2259 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 9:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Robert,

I'm FINALLY getting around to cleaning up a backlog of
correspondence.  Thanks (all) for your patience, hope
you don't mind returning to some old issues...

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:


> The Visuddhimagga says that this object [the
breath]> is not
> for ordinary
> people but only for Mahapurisa - great ones such as
> Rahula and
> the other 80 great disciples of the Buddha. It says
> that
> mindfulness of breathing appears easy but is the
> probably the
> hardest of  the 38 objects of samattha. This doesn't
> mean that
> ordinary people can't develop it but it needs a lot
> of care and
> background and prior development in past lives. When
> it is
> developed as an object of samattha there will come a
> time when a
> nimitta appears and that is taken as the object -
> this is a
> concept as Sarah notes. 

This is really interesting.  It would seem to suggest
a source of the differences of opinion between
devotees of abhidhamma and anapanasati-based
meditation...!

> This is the way vipassana develops no matter whether
> in daily
> life or whether one lives under a tree. No matter
> whether breath
> is the object or not. 

Right...

> Avijja is always darting among
> concepts
> but in between panna is arising and seeing
> paramattha dhammas as
> they are, little by little. 

Right--but only if the panna has previously
'accumulated' in cittas to be passed on to other
cittas etc., I presume (or rather accept as a working
hypothesis)... 

> Try and force it though
> and it is
> sure to be done with an idea of self. 

Yes, I think so too. And I think this is major
obstacle for some people, that is, clinging to the
idea of 'free will' vs. aversion to the idea of
'determinism'.  In a way, I think this 'I am free to
choose to act in this way or that' is the very nut of
sakkaya-ditthi.  People will sometimes go to great
lengths to avoid the (I think) glaring and undeniable
fact that this view and anatta are mutually exclusive.
 This is more than just a conventional expression, I
think.  A pity.  Kamma and paticcasamuppada are really
much more liberating than 'free will', arent' they,
even for a couple of dumb puthujanas like us...

You know, off-hand I can't think of anyplace in the
suttapitaka where the Buddha told anyone s/he had a
choice (corrections welcomed!)  Do you remember him
ever saying or even implying, as a rhetorician might,
'...it's up to you!  It's your choice!'?  Though he
constantly instructed people in what to think, say and
do (and what not to) I believe that he was simply
planting seeds (always the right seeds for the right
cittas) to be transmitted on to the next citta and so
on to germinate when the time was right (usually
pretty darned quick, in his case!).  I think there's a
subtle but crucial difference here.  

> It is panna
> (wisdom) that
> arises and knows-that is its function. The
> essential conditions
> for this (re;your post yesterday) is profound and
> repeated
> reflection about dhammas which conditions yoniso
> manasikara (wise
> attention) to the various objects that are arising.

Exactly, assuming the paññá has previously
accumulated.  And no one wisely attending--just wise
attention...

> Being in a
> quiet place can be a supporting condition for this
> to occur, but
> it is not at all an essential condition.

Definitely not--but the previous accumulation of paññá
IS--I THINK.
 
mike



 
2260 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 9:14am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  dear mike and dhd,
Perhaps a little more theory (do I hear groans out there?)will
help.
I wrote to Jody yesterday about the three rounds - kamma-vatta
(action) vipaka-vatta (result of kamma) and kilesa-vatta
(defilements). The round of vipaka(result)is ahetuka citta(no
root). Thus the moments of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching,
smelling are all rootless, they are simply the results of past
good or bad kamma. However, immediately after these brief
sense-impressions there are other cittas that arise in a series
and during this series javanna cittas occur.
 These javanna cittas are sahetuka(accompanied by hetu, root).
The six roots are three unwholesome ones, dosa, lobha(desire)
moha(ignorance) and three wholesome,
alobha(non-attachment),adosa (non-aversion), and amoha (panna,
wisdom). The javanna cittas must be rooted in some of these and
is thus always either kusala(wholesome) or akusala
(unwholesome).  Cittas rooted in lobha are always also rooted in
moha (ignorance), as also are citas rooted in Dosa(also rooted
in moha) . However dosa and moha cannot arise at the same time
or even in the same process. But they can arise shortly after
each other. I think of dosa as like the other side of the same
coin that has lobha on the face. 
Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Dhd5,
> 
> As I understand it, each citta is individually
> 'rooted', and arises and subsides completely with
> incredible rapidity (along with it's 'root')--the
> appearance of continuity due to each citta's
> conditioning of the next citta and so on.  
> 
> So, again, the aversion-rooted citta is, I think,
> conditioned (in part) by the impermanence (or loss, or
> absence) of the object of the clinging-rooted citta. 
> Make sense?
> 
> mn
> ---  wrote:
> > I don't know exactly what "root"(mula) means. In
> > everyday language a 
> > mournful citta that arises after the passing away of
> > a desired object 
> > would seem to have lobha as a "root" instead of
> > dosa. But obviously 
> > this is not Abhidhamma. I understand the 
> >
> lobha-dosa-lobha-dosa/neutral-unpleasant-neutral-unpleasant
> > 
> > conception, but where does "root" come in? Any
> > Patthana afficionados 
> > out there that can help us?
> > 
> > 
> > > If I understand this correctly, it would be
> > dosa-mula
> > > (rooted) citta conditioned by lobha-mula citta. 
> > That
> > > is, the dosa would arise because of the
> > impermanence
> > > of the object of clinging.  Does this sound right?
> > > 
> > > mn
> > > 
> > > ---  wrote:
> > > > > Would a simple way to express this be that the
> > > > > domanassa vedana here accompanies dosa
> > > > *conditioned
> > > > > by* lobha?  Thanks in advance for corrections.
> > > > Thank you for your kind words. 
> > > > 
> > > > If the dosa is "conditioned by" lobha, wherefore
> > > > dosa as "root"?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 
> 



 
2261 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 9:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] correctionRe: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Iwrote:
--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> . However dosa and moha cannot arise at the same time
> or even in the same process. But they can 

it should be "However dosa and LOBHA cannot arise at the same.."
Robert

> 


 
2262 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 9:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Translation

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> By the way if anyone would like to see the
> half-translation as is 
> without waiting for the completed book, please
> contact me off list,

Thanks, yes--I'd very much like to see it!

Whang wa khun kohng sabai dee, Ma'am, 

mike


 
2263 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 10:37am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  ---   wrote:
> ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:

> I was wondering if there is any reason, other than "similar tastes"
> as you mention above, for one to study the Abhidhamma if everything 
> one needs is already in the Suttas?
> 
> Thank you and kindest regards,
> Veronica Ma.

Dear Veronica,

I can't give you an authoritative answer, but would like to tell you 
what has caught my interest in abhidhamma.  For nearly thirty years 
I've wandered around in various schools of Buddhism, the last ten or 
so in the Theravada.  I was very glad when this meandering led me to 
the sutta-pitaka.  I bought the PTS edition and read all of it, some 
more than once or even twice.  Why I appreciate having had the great 
good fortune of discovering this group (and with it abhidhamma): MANY 
ideas I had developed individually, intellectually and intuitively 
and with the help of others, good monks among them, were simply 
mistaken.  So much was clarified in such a short time!  And all of it 
from the same suttas I'd read and contemplated and embraced.  Maybe, 
if I'd had the time, I would've figured out the inconsistencies in my 
own understanding eventually, but I don't think so.  The way this 
information has been carefully gleaned from the suttas and laid out, 
cross-referenced and so on, is incredibly helpful.  So, from my point 
of view, why re-invent the eight-spoked wheel?  I can always measure 
my own intuition and reasoning against the abhidhamma and the suttas 
and frankly, it's always the former, not the suttas or the abhidhamma 
(which always agree), that come up short.

I hope that you won't pass up this opportunity to investigate this 
wonderful material for yourself.

Mike

 
2264 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 10:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  I think you meant dosa and lobha cannot arise at the same time.

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> in moha) . However dosa and moha cannot arise at the same time
> or even in the same process. But they can arise shortly after
> each other. I think of dosa as like the other side of the same
> coin that has lobha on the face. 




 
2265 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 11:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Sarah,

FINALLY getting back to you--I've had a lot of irons
in the fire of late.

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> 
> I’m sorry I confused you by correcting the one
> sentence in my very long post to Michael J that you
> picked up on!

Hey--I don't need YOUR help to get confused...

> Well, this is the important distinction that needs
> to
> be made because most of the time when there is
> concentrating or focussing on an object there is no
> understanding of a reality and hence no vipassana
> development taking place. The small correction that
> follows doesn't change this.

Right...

> >sarah... wrote:
> >
> >> I made a mistake in the para below. I meant to
> say
> >> that the concept of breath cannot be the object
> of
> >> insight or vipassana. Of course there can be
> >> understanding or vipassana whilst focussing on
> breath
> >> or any other concept, but the object must be a
> reality
> >> such as softness/hardness or thinking.
> >
> 
> >Well! Having previously applauded the sentence
> you've
> corrected 
> >here, I'm doubly curious. Is it true that
> understanding or insight 
> >may arise while the mind is 'darting among
> unrealities'? Seems I 
> >need to look at this a little more closely.
> 
> Yes, except that technically speaking, they are
> different moments. 

Yes, that't the answer of course.  Kusala cittas
popping up occasionally among the akusala...

> One moment there may be thinking
> about breath (a concept), another moment there can
> be
> awareness of thinking, hardness or softness, or any
> other reality which appears. So while darting (or to
> be precise, in between the darting), there can be
> moments of understanding. 

Right...

> Whilst breathing,
> standing,
> walking, sitting, there are realities which can be
> known. This is in essence what the Satipatthana
> Sutta
> is discussing. Breathing, sitting, standing, walking
> are concepts which cannot be known. But this is our
> daily life. This is what we do. 

That's the way I understand this too.

> Whilst following
> these
> activities, awareness can be developed naturally of
> any realities appearing without any special
> focussing.

By focussing, you mean ekagata?  Because I think
yoniso manasikara needs to be present, wise attention,
no?  

> >I guess that, given that only one citta can arise
> at
> a time, with 
> >only one object, the problem is with the
> expression.
> Not really 
> >a 'mind darting'...still, this does bring to mind
> the
> simile of 
> >trying to get milk by twisting a cow's horn.
> >
> >Please excuse my rambling. Maybe I'm just mixed up
> in
> semantics. 
> >Any thoughts?
> 
> No, I think you understood the essence of the
> original
> post perfectly (and my subsequent minor alteration
> didn't change this). 

Thanks--that's reassuring.

> Thanks for urging me to clarify further too.

Always a pleasure, Ma'am...mn


 
2266 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 0:55am
Subject: Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:

> Thankyou for yr reasons you may take robes...we'll
> consider & may take up some points for discusssion
> in
> Bkk in a non-personal sort of way..

I hope this doesn't displace more important issues,
but I'll be interested to hear the result...
 
> Thank you for the footnote (not in front of me). Of
> course those complications, papancas, have nothing
> to
> do with the 'outer appearance'....we can't avoid our
> accumulations for ever...

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of my original
message and can't remember what this is in reference
to...
 
> The best monk I ever knew in terms of keeping
> strictest vinaya etc was Phra Dhammadharo/Alan
> Driver
> (as on the tapes). 

Is this the same man you mentioned earlier, who
published 'Cetasikas', etc.?  Also, is it his voice on
the Colombo tapes or am I confusing him with another
monk?

> After many years in robes, when
> he
> disrobed and went to live in Jonothan's house. 
> Within
> 2 days he had more clothes in his closet than
> Jonothan
> who'd lived in Bkk and worked there for 7 yrs! Not
> only that, but they were specific colours,
> tailor-made, special fabrics etc. 

Sure, why not?  All perfectly appropriate for a
layman.  The Buddha never recommended monkish garb or
manners for householders.  In fact, I not only find
the stark double-standard in vinaya between the lay
and bhikkhu to be a fascinating feature, but I also
think it's absolutely essential--the sangha couldn't
have existed without it.

> Nothing wrong in
> any
> of this and not an indicator at all of any level of
> kusala or akusala, but just an indicator of
> accumulations which are not affected by taking
> robes.

No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) will
affect past accumulations.  However, new accumulations
after one has begun observing the 226 precepts will
certainly change--most obviously, one will be
protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
vipaka--right?

> I might make similar comments with regard to your
> comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> life....isn't this thinking? 

To be sure!  And I'm not actually complaining about
these things.  In fact, I have a great job, good
friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
thing.  I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
Alan was, in my own way.  More to the point,  

> What about awareness
> while getting on the bus, having inane
> conversations,
> doing boring work etc...realities which are just as
> real at these times!

Of course!  And by the way, a monk's life is just as
full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's.  Contrary
to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe that
simply living the 'holy life' does much of anything to
eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way of
expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.  This
brings me back to my other (rather unclearly stated)
motives:  That it's a great job that needs to be done,
and that it DOES protect one from akusala
kamma-pathas.  By the way, as Robert pointed out in a
recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything we
want to do.  I realize that this intention is
conditioned almost entirely by the three unwholesome
roots.  That's the way it has to be and, I assume, has
been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since the
days of the arahats.  However, I don't think that this
is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do you? 
If I waited until my motives were completely pure, I
would never have performed any act of dana, sila or
bhavana.   
 
> I must stop & PACK! 8a.m. flight tomorrow.

This is so late, your might already be back--hope you
had a good flight.
 
> If you feel you can put any of yr comments on list,
> you  may get some useful responses & then I can add
> ones from Bkk....maybe a general qu on these points.

I'll consider this--hard to convert a personal
conversation into a general discussion.  However, do
please feel free to post any of this you'd like to get
something going.
 
Talk to you soon, and, welcome back?

p.s.  You probably got the same message from Egroups
that I did (I moderate some work-groups) about Yahoo
taking over.  This adds some interesting
possibilities, notably increased 'chat' capability. 
What do you think of Shin's recent suggestion that we
try a little real-time chat sometime?



 
 
2267 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 3:38am
Subject: Dhamma study

 
  Kia ora Koutou,

Thank you for the kind words and feedback regarding any comments made.

One thing that has captured my attention regarding the Dhamma, is 
that it does not entail a single path towards nibbaana. It can be 
adapted, as the Buddha demonstrated, to suit the various inclinations
of people's spiritual levels and accumulations, that is, whether they
are puthujjana, sekha, or asekha. Therefore, it reinforces that 
sammaaditthi is individual and relative to the one's path. Which means
that anyone can be on the path, be it mundane or supermundane, according
to their lifestyle. Of course, there are advantages to living certain
ways over others, but each life time is short and the path is gradual.

This flexibility is realistic and wise, and is far from the attitudes
I have come across. However, I need not worry about that, instead 
realise the gradual nature of the path and that all will comprehend 
the freedom which is possible from the suffering of samsaara.

At the moment, I'm reading the book: "Paali Buddhism", edited by 
Frank Hoffman and Deegalle Mahinda. It seems a good read. 

That's all for now.

 
2268 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 11:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma study

 
  Dear Jody,
I don't know the book you mentioned but if there are any
interesting or doubtful points you are welcome to bring them up.
If you want to read other books by Nina van Gorkom the NZ libary
service will be able to get them for you through a request at
your local library (small charge). I know they have "THE world
in the Buddhist Sense" and "Buddhism in daily LIfe" at Auckland
Public Lib. They might also have "Cetasikas".
Good comments you made about how the path can suit any
lifestyle. Yes, there were monks and nuns- and among those some
lived in the forest and some stayed close to the city. Some took
on the dhutanga (ascetic practices), some didn't. All types
could attain nibbana. 
Among layfollowers there were those who kept 8 or sometimes 10
precepts and some lived fairly secluded lives. Others were 
attached to their wealth and woman and children, and lived lives
of luxury; but both types attained stages of enlightenment. On
this list too you will find many variations in lifestyles.
 
So good that you see that this life is short and the path is
very gradual. Yes in this way we have a sense of urgency - our
human life will soon end, we must strive. On the other hand
knowing the path is so long one stops looking for results and
instead studies the present moment; as this is the only way to
come to see. When the time is right, when enough understanding
has accumulated, nibbana will be experienced - it will happen
whether we want it to or not. No one could stop it.

Robert

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: > Kia ora
Koutou,
> 
> Thank you for the kind words and feedback regarding any
> comments made.
> 
> One thing that has captured my attention regarding the Dhamma,
> is 
> that it does not entail a single path towards nibbaana. It can
> be 
> adapted, as the Buddha demonstrated, to suit the various
> inclinations
> of people's spiritual levels and accumulations, that is,
> whether they
> are puthujjana, sekha, or asekha. Therefore, it reinforces
> that 
> sammaaditthi is individual and relative to the one's path.
> Which means
> that anyone can be on the path, be it mundane or supermundane,
> according
> to their lifestyle. Of course, there are advantages to living
> certain
> ways over others, but each life time is short and the path is
> gradual.
> 
> This flexibility is realistic and wise, and is far from the
> attitudes
> I have come across. However, I need not worry about that,
> instead 
> realise the gradual nature of the path and that all will
> comprehend 
> the freedom which is possible from the suffering of samsaara.
> 
> At the moment, I'm reading the book: "Paali Buddhism", edited
> by 
> Frank Hoffman and Deegalle Mahinda. It seems a good read. 
> 
> That's all for now.
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 



 
2269 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 0:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear Mike,
I'll make a few comments on your letter to sarah, which you
posted to the group.
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> >  
> > The best monk I ever knew in terms of keeping
> > strictest vinaya etc was Phra Dhammadharo/Alan
> > Driver
> > (as on the tapes). 
> 
> Is this the same man you mentioned earlier, who
> published 'Cetasikas', etc.?  Also, is it his voice on
> the Colombo tapes or am I confusing him with another
> monk?

Phra Dhammdharo was a longtime student of Khun sujin until his
untimely death when he was the pasenger in a van that crashed. I
think he was on the way to give a Dhamma talk at a airforce base
at the time. His name was alan driver. Alan weller in England is
the publisher of Cetasikas and other books.

> 
> > After many years in robes, when
> > he
> > disrobed and went to live in Jonothan's house. 
> > Within
> > 2 days he had more clothes in his closet than
> > Jonothan
> > who'd lived in Bkk and worked there for 7 yrs! Not
> > only that, but they were specific colours,
> > tailor-made, special fabrics etc. 
> 
> Sure, why not?  All perfectly appropriate for a
> layman.  The Buddha never recommended monkish garb or
> manners for householders.  In fact, I not only find
> the stark double-standard in vinaya between the lay
> and bhikkhu to be a fascinating feature, but I also
> think it's absolutely essential--the sangha couldn't
> have existed without it.

I completely agree. Sometimes laypeople think that they should
try to imitate the lifestyle of a monk but this doesn't seem to
be the intention of the Buddha.


> 
> > Nothing wrong in
> > any
> > of this and not an indicator at all of any level of
> > kusala or akusala, but just an indicator of
> > accumulations which are not affected by taking
> > robes.
> 
> No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) will
> affect past accumulations.  However, new accumulations
> after one has begun observing the 226 precepts will
> certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> vipaka--right?

Monks have different sila to laypeople and if they break these
it is a serious matter too. We can live life as a layperson and
not make any akusala kamma-patha (completed bad action). However
one who lives the life of a monk correctly, and that is only
possible with good understanding, is very protected. They are
guarding the 6 sense doors. They see danger in the slightest
fault. Of course this is also possible for the layman; it is how
we should live. 

> 
> > I might make similar comments with regard to your
> > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > life....isn't this thinking? 
> 
> To be sure!  And I'm not actually complaining about
> these things.  In fact, I have a great job, good
> friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> thing.  I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> Alan was, in my own way.  More to the point,  
> 
> > What about awareness
> > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > conversations,
> > doing boring work etc...realities which are just as
> > real at these times!
> 
> Of course!  And by the way, a monk's life is just as
> full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's.  Contrary
> to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe that
> simply living the 'holy life' does much of anything to
> eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way of
> expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya. 

Good comments! Only understanding of satipatthana can gradually
erase kilesa.


 This
> brings me back to my other (rather unclearly stated)
> motives:  That it's a great job that needs to be done,
> and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> kamma-pathas.  By the way, as Robert pointed out in a
> recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything we
> want to do.  I realize that this intention is
> conditioned almost entirely by the three unwholesome
> roots.  That's the way it has to be and, I assume, has
> been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since the
> days of the arahats.  However, I don't think that this
> is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do you? 
> If I waited until my motives were completely pure, I
> would never have performed any act of dana, sila or
> bhavana.   

I agree. As i said to sarah and you off list I think you could
do a LOT of good as a monk. Please think of me as a supporter
for requisites if you do take the robes. 

Robert



 
2270 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 217

 
  Dear Dhd5,
First, heartfelt condolences for the loss of your uncle. This is probably
the hardest dukkha to face in life, the loss of someone well loved.
Fortunately, knowing that, the Lord Buddha concentrated on this topic quite
a bit in the Tipitika, if I am not mistaken. Though I don't have references
at my fingertips, I think you are correct in seeing that loss in death is
dhosa which comes when that for which we still have lobha has been removed,
not by the development of panna, but because of vipaka. When we study the
realities (the Paramatha dhammas) as they come up in daily life (sorry, I
don't have the various marks to put on the Pali words on my machine), the
conditions are being developed for panna to arise later, when it is ready.

What does panna, a cetasika, then realize? An ever increasing, and ever
deeper,
understanding that all conditioned realities are anatta, anicca and dukkha.
I had heard these words for years, but never had any real, or even minimal,
understanding of them until I started studying Abhidhamma with Achaan Sujin.
When panna arises, it increases understanding of these, gradually, and a
great feeling
of comfort, also a cetasika, will also arise as well.

But, a question: is that feeling of comfort, which arises with panna, really
lobha in disguise? How could lobha arise with panna? Or is that feeling
something else? Perhaps Robert can help answer that.

With metta,
Betty

PS: I see by your address that you are based in Ithica, NY. Lovely
countryside there. Am originally from NYC and my sister lives in Syracuse,
so when I come to the States, am usually in that area as well.

__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160




 
2271 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 2:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 218

 
  Dear Dhd5,
In regard to your comments on Abhidhamma, I agree wholeheartedly that it is
the reality that counts and that all our words and explanations are merely
concepts, models, as you call them, to explain those realities. Yes, we need
to see the realities behind the concepts, and that is the process of
satipatthana: as phenomena arise, see them in terms of paramatha dhammas.
This then sets the conditions for sati and panna to arise later. Panna will
then understand the realiities with a depth that no explanations can ever
achieve. But the discussion, reading and writing about those explanations
can often act as triggers for satipatthana to happen.

with metta,
Betty

PS: please excuse my poor spelling: Ithaca, not Ithica.
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
2272 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 4:23pm
Subject: levels of panna Digest Number 217

 
  Dear betty,
Thanks for the inspiring letter. See my comments after yours.
--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" 
When
> we study the
> realities (the Paramatha dhammas) as they come up in daily
> life (sorry, I
> don't have the various marks to put on the Pali words on my
> machine), the
> conditions are being developed for panna to arise later, when
> it is ready. > What does panna, a cetasika, then realize? An
ever increasing,
> and ever
> deeper,
> understanding that all conditioned realities are anatta,
> anicca and dukkha.
> I had heard these words for years, but never had any real, or
> even minimal,
> understanding of them until I started studying Abhidhamma with
> Achaan Sujin.
> When panna arises, it increases understanding of these,
> gradually, and a
> great feeling
> of comfort, also a cetasika, will also arise as well.
 
There are levels upon levels of panna (wisdom). When we think
about impermanence, for instance, that nothing lasts even for a
split second, that every moment is conditioned, this is a level
of panna. However it is not the same as direct understanding.
Another level is when we consider and see as realities are
arising and passing away. So we realize, as it is happening,
that dhammas are changing rapidly and that there is no self
involved. We see that citta takes sound for an object and the
next moment colour and then concept and there is understanding
of how uncontrollable it is. Some people imagine this is now
direct undstanding of rise and fall but I call this "thinking in
the present moment." There is not yet penetration of the
visesa-lakkhana, characteristics of nama and rupa. Direct
awareness can come in between the moments of thinking or it can
come even without such thinking. Until the first stage of
vipasssana nana though, the difference between nama and rupa is
not properly understood. For vipassana to arise there must be a
firm intellectual understanding of anatta and this comes about
by considering the teachings carefully and wisely and also by
repeated testing and study of dhammas in the present moment. As
these levels of understanding develop there is certainly more
comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later
stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one
that reduces self to one moment only. 

Now I have a slight cramp in my leg, that is the concept, the
story, the thinking. The realities, the dhammas, include akusala
vipaka through the bodysense (painful feeling) and there are
cittas that experience heat, hardness, vibration. 
 When we think about such painful or pleasant feelings is it
"me' who is having pain or is self reduced to one moment? Do we
think cittas(moments of consciousness) arise in the brain? I am
now reading a book by John Searle, a leading Philosopher of
mind. He says that when we have a pain in the foot that actually
the experience of pain must arise in the brain and it just
appears to arise at the foot. This is not so. But see for
yourself. We have so much attachment to the idea that "we" are
thinking, "we" are seeing, feeling, hearing. If we can learn to
see that at a moment of pain in the leg that "we"(by this I mean
citta), for that moment arise somewhere in the vicinity of the
leg (and no leg in that moment), this helps to break down the
idea of a whole, a person. The next moment is a new 'we' at a
new location at the eyedoor or eardoor. So uncontrollable and
temporary. This is understanding at the level of thinking.

 > But, a question: is that feeling of comfort, which arises
with
> panna, really
> lobha in disguise? How could lobha arise with panna? Or is
> that feeling
> something else? 

Lobha (attachment)can never arise with panna but alobha,
non-attachment, always does. Whenever there is panna the feeling
associated with it is always either neutral or pleasant. We can
see a dead body and feel very pleasant if panna arises. We can
even be in a deadly situation and have pleasant feeling with
panna(wisdom). 
Last year my daughter was run over by a car. I got a rather
hysterical phone call to go to the hospital where she was in
intensive care. When I got there my son told me to stop smiling
as it was such a serious matter. I hadn't noticed I was smiling
as I was concentrated on considering kamma and result and other
aspects of Dhamma. This was only thinking about Dhamma but it is
still with a level of panna and conditions pleasant feeling.(She
wasn't too badly hurt as it turnned out).
 However, pleasant feeling also arises with lobha(attachment)
and so it can be taken for panna. Usually, when we have kusala
such as panna , immediately afterwards and also in between the
moments with panna, there is lobha that attaches: to the
pleasant feeling or to the kusala(panna) itself. This is
natural, lobha has been accumulated and so it must arise.
Learning about this as it happens is good to do.
Robert




 
2273 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 7:17pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > AC: It seems that the way that Sariputta did not repeat the words 
Evam me
> Sutam throughout the abhidhamma teachings confused your reasoning.
> In fact Sariputta was very precise and when he spoke of the cetasika
> for example and having finished describing the 
sappa-citta-satarana-cetasika
> as universal and accompanying all citta he did not repeat this as he
> described all the 89 major kinds of citta.  This may leave you where 
he
> started but not the serious student.
> 
> MO: On two issues in this one paragraph, Amara, you have both 
misunderstood
> what was written in previous posts and, taking your misunderstanding 
as
> fact, have formulated offensive opinions as to me personally and 
have taken
> the further step of actually posting those opinions.


Dear All,

I am glad that this list has an archive so that we could, if we 
wanted, go back to earlier messages to see what actually was said.  
Since this person has left the group, I would prefer not to 
criticize someone who is not there to defend himself.  I would just 
like to say some one who writes (in message 2189):


"One thing I note about just this: Whereas the Suttas are presented 
in what I would call "2nd hand" form; this quote comes down 4th 
hand. When we hear Evam me sutam, we are hearing Ananda say that he 
either heard this as it was spoken or heard it repeated to him by 
the Buddha at a later time. What I hear in these lines is "What I 
hear is that Ananda heard this was the Buddha's word from Sariputta."

In the end it doesn't matter in that if there is no incongruity with 
the suttas it is Dhamma. On the other hand if this work were to show 
itself to have been put into the public view under false pretences, 
it would not reflect well on the knowledge of the Dhamma of those 
who perpetrated the hoax, and one would need to exercise extra 
special scrutiny of every proposition, comparing each line to the 
suttas, and, as such, would constitute a monumental waste of time." 

(end quote)


and then attributes it to his sense of humor, I would also like to 
attribute what he considers offensive to my own brand of sense of 
humor.  Besides, as he said,


> My reasoning in this matter is not confused. I have no reasoning 
whatsoever.


It is hard to reason with anyone who does not have any, so I will go 
no further.



> >AC: Thank you for the dialog, which conditioned some moments of 
study to
> arise in me as I wrote.  I do not think I have the qualifications to
> teach you anything but we could discuss the dhamma which is always
> useful and if it does not benefit you in any way, I will have tried 
my
> best and have been forced to think of the truth and satipatthana and
> accumulated a little more right conditions for myself in the 
process!
> So anumodana in your interest,
> 
> MO: Well, if insulting people is the kind of "accumulations" you are 
looking
> for this little exchange has credited your account with something 
today.


I stand by what I said and I say to each his accumulations anyway.


> TO THE REST: Well that was fast. I was sure such a time as this 
would
> quickly arrive, but this is a record. I stay on one of these forums 
only
> until such a time as I suffer a personal attack. At that time I 
respond to
> the open issues and concluding that unsubscribe from the board. This 
is a
> policy and is impersonal as regards the rest of the board. I do not 
stay
> because to thoroughly deal with personal attacks on a board owned by 
someone
> else would be impossible and even an attempt would be a lengthy and 
serious
> disruption of another persons property [yours and the list owners]. 
"When
> bad conditions increase and good condiditions decrease, depart, even 
if it
> means having to get up and go without saying goodbye."


Just wanted to add that this is probably another tongue in cheek 
humor since MO did say his goodbye to everyone, though perhaps not 
to me!  But I won't take that personally,

Amara

 
2274 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 8:00pm
Subject: Re: Hello all

 
  > Kia ora koutou (hello all), 


Dear Jody, 

A belated welcome to the list, I hope you will find it useful or at 
least interesting.  As the word dhamma translates as the truth, 
realities and the Buddha's teachings, any questions or topics of 
discussions are most welcome, especially the ones you mentioned 
below, I really look forward to your posts very much,

Amara


>   My name is Jody Pirret and I am pleased to introduce myself 
>   to other members of this email group. In addition to the 
>   personal information made available through the egroups 
>   registration, I would just like to elaborate on my interests. 
> 
>   Through university study, I have come to be very interested 
>   in the development of Western culture, philosophically, 
>   materially, and, scientifically. I feel I am coming to know 
>   how I have been conditioned to view myself within such 
>   paradigms as biomedicine, psychology, physics, and, 
>   economics. Presently, I question the way in which such 
>   paradigms promote their truths above all other ways of doing 
>   things. 
> 
>   Through philosophy, I have enjoyed discussing mind and reality. 
>   Such topics have inevitably opened my eyes to the truths of 
>   the East in the form of confucianism, taoism, and, Buddhism. 
>   Therefore, it is with an empty cup that I seek to learn from 
>   such treasures through such things as martial arts and meditation. 
> 
>   I feel all forms of buddhism have much to offer Western culture. 
>   In terms of Theravada Buddhism, I read a book by Nina Van Gorkom.
>   It had an old contact address of Robert Kirkpatrick's in it, and
>   I was able to track him down. Thankfully, he put me on to this 
egroup.
>   Therefore, I look forward to receiving comments from this, the 
>   Dhamma study egroup. 
> 
>   Regards, Jody.

 
2275 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 8:06pm
Subject: Re: Dana to Myanmar?

 
  > They then ask if we have other English titles and whether we
> could send them copies of those as well as more copies of R and
> C.
> So for those of you who are now in Bangkok and would like to
> make merit take your chance!
> The Address is
> U Han Htay
> International Buddhist University
> NO.98 , 46th street
> Yangoon
> Myanmar


Dear Robert,

Anumodana and thanks, will print your letter out for Khun Sujin,

Amara

 
2276 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 8:18pm
Subject: Re: Cambodia

 
  > Hello from Cambodia:
(...)
> Full reports will come later. I have to go now.


Dear JJ,

So  very happy to finally hear from you!!!  Looking forward VERY MUCH 
to  hearing more soon,

Amara

 

 
2278 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 8:41pm
Subject: Re: Dana to Myanmar?

 
  ---  Sukinderpal Narula  
wrote:
> Dear group,
> I have taken the chance to do merit as suggested by Robert, by
> visiting the foundation today and obtaining some books and sent
> them to U Han Htay in Myanmar.
> Fearing that I might be taking too many copies from a limited
> amount of stock, I chose to take and send the following:-
> 10 copies of 'Realities and concepts'.
> 20 copies each of the 'Mental development' series.
> 10 copies of 'Abhidhamma in Daily life'.
> 20 copies of the 'Letters'
> 20 copies of the thin grey book the name of which I don't remember.
> This I mention in case if anyone who might have a better estimate of
> the stock of books at the foundation, might see the possibility of
> sending more copies and do it.
> 
> Sukin.


Dear Sukin,

Anumodana for everything!!!  Now we know we everything is in good 
hands and can go off anywhere in the world, unless of course you 
come with us the next time!  It was one of the most unforgetable 
experiences in my life, by the way, in Cambodia.  You must really 
come next time.

Thanks again and really anumodana, will print out your letter too,

Amara

 
2279 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 8:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dana to Myanmar?

 
  Dear amara,
Since you are discussing this with Sujin you might want to add
that I think Realities and Concepts especially meet for this
university. Maybe someone could arrange regular parcels to be
sent there? I reason they will take great care of Abhidhamma
books in Burma because English books are such an expensive
commodity there and because of the subject.
I sent a couple of books to a man I met on a train while in
India. He sent me a letter this week thanking me for "the golden
books, which will remain in my family as an honoured treasure
for all our lives".
Robert
ps. Could you let nina know too, if you see her, as she
translated the book.
--- amara chay  wrote: > ---  Sukinderpal Narula
>  
> wrote:
> > Dear group,
> > I have taken the chance to do merit as suggested by Robert,
> by
> > visiting the foundation today and obtaining some books and
> sent
> > them to U Han Htay in Myanmar.
> > Fearing that I might be taking too many copies from a
> limited
> > amount of stock, I chose to take and send the following:-
> > 10 copies of 'Realities and concepts'.
> > 20 copies each of the 'Mental development' series.
> > 10 copies of 'Abhidhamma in Daily life'.
> > 20 copies of the 'Letters'
> > 20 copies of the thin grey book the name of which I don't
> remember.
> > This I mention in case if anyone who might have a better
> estimate of
> > the stock of books at the foundation, might see the
> possibility of
> > sending more copies and do it.
> > 
> > Sukin.
> 
> 
> Dear Sukin,
> 
> Anumodana for everything!!!  Now we know we everything is in
> good 
> hands and can go off anywhere in the world, unless of course
> you 
> come with us the next time!  It was one of the most
> unforgetable 
> experiences in my life, by the way, in Cambodia.  You must
> really 
> come next time.
> 
> Thanks again and really anumodana, will print out your letter
> too,
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2280 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 9:05pm
Subject: Re: Translation

 
  > > By the way if anyone would like to see the
> > half-translation as is 
> > without waiting for the completed book, please
> > contact me off list,
> 
> Thanks, yes--I'd very much like to see it!


Dear Sir,

Please look for attachment off list, and would appreciate any 
corrections and comments,

Amara

 
2281 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 9, 2000 9:48pm
Subject: Re: Dana to Myanmar?

 
  > Since you are discussing this with Sujin you might want to add
> that I think Realities and Concepts especially meet for this
> university. Maybe someone could arrange regular parcels to be
> sent there? I reason they will take great care of Abhidhamma
> books in Burma because English books are such an expensive
> commodity there and because of the subject.
> I sent a couple of books to a man I met on a train while in
> India. He sent me a letter this week thanking me for "the golden
> books, which will remain in my family as an honoured treasure
> for all our lives".
> Robert
> ps. Could you let nina know too, if you see her, as she
> translated the book.

Dear Robert, 

Will also print your letter above out for both Nina and Khun Sujin,

Thank you and anumodana for everything, I am enjoying in particular 
your wonderful posts these last few days,

Amara

 
 
2282 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 7:38am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Citta and Abhidhamma (was Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Kom,

I've spent most of the day catching up on old
correspondence that I've left because of insufficient
time to give it due attention.

I think this reply is so excellent that I'm saving it
as a reference for how to look at abhidhamma and why
to study it.

Saadhu!

mn
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> --- Michael Olds  wrote:
> > MO: I completely agree with this and I stated as
> much in my original
> > post.
> > MO: This argument is made moot by your earlier
> argument that if what
> > is
> > taught is the truth, it is what the Buddha taught.
> Thanks for your patience in reading through what we
> have already agreed
> on: it gives me the confidence that we are on the
> same page.
> 
> > The first thing one needs to do in this case is to
> ask one’s self
> > what it is
> > that one is, one’s self, attempting to gain from
> studying this
> > Dhamma. Then
> > one needs to examine the claims made by the
> various teachers out
> > there. Then
> > one needs to examine the method suggested for
> accomplishing the goal.
> > Then
> > one needs to follow that method. If that method
> accomplishes the
> > stated
> > goal, then one can ask no more. Asking more one
> could ask if the
> > Entire
> > teaching of this teacher who has taught something
> that does
> > accomplish that
> > goal also is consistent with that part of that
> teaching that does
> > accomplish
> > that goal. 
> >If it does, it doesn’t matter if the words are
> exactly
> > those of
> > the original teacher or not. But in the case of
> This System,
> > comprehending
> > the difficulty of the goal and the uniqueness in
> the world of it’s
> > method,
> > we would necessarily have to come to the
> conclusion (having had all
> > the
> > above experiences) that what we have in front of
> us in the Suttas is
> > in fact
> > the word of the Buddha . . . or, if it isn’t, then
> the words we have
> > in
> > front of us in the Suttas and Vinaya ARE the
> Buddha.
> Totally agreed.  I think that we can now discuss why
> learning the
> teachings in Abhidhammas is important.  
> 
> > the Abhidhamma is the superior dhamma 
> The Buddha taught only the truth that will aid
> becoming free of all the
> sufferrings.  If the truth helps one becoming free,
> that is the
> superior truth for the person.   Hence, in this
> sense, the abhidhammas
> is not superior to the sutta: they all teach the
> truths that help a
> person becoming free.
> 
> > the Abhidhamma, would it not prove to be a wiser
> technique to begin
> > with the
> > more fundamental dhamma and progress on through it
> to the point where
> > it is
> > mastered?
> I think we are in agreement here that knowing the
> fundamentals about
> dhammas is the only way to proceed.  I think the
> difference here is
> whether the Sutta and the Abhidhammas are "better"
> ways to know the
> fundamentals.  I would like to present the following
> comments based on
> my understandings:
> 1) The suttas are concise teachings exactly fitting
> the
> accumulations/outlooks of the recipient.  It is
> deep, profound,
> intricate, and subtle, as all the Master's teachings
> are.  The receiver
> that became an ariya disciple succeeded not because
> of that teaching
> alone, but because of the dhamma/panna accumulations
> done in countless
> previous lives.  The Buddha himself had
> accumulations for the
> englightenment for 4 asangayas (sp?) 100,000 kappa. 
> Maha-mogalana and
> Sali-puttra each accumulated for 1 asangayas,
> 100,000 kappa.  
> 2) Without the needed accumulations, just a few
> short and medium
> teaching alone cannot get a person to become an
> ariya disciple.
> 3) The abhidhammas are the books where all the deep,
> profound,
> intricate, and subtle details are expounded upon. 
> This is for the
> venuyasatta (slow learner, one who needs lengthy
> study) and other
> people with no hope to become enlightend in this
> life, who, without the
> explicit details, cannot grasp even the most
> fundamentals of dhammas. 
> The abhidhammas are thus for the persons who did not
> have enough
> accumulations to understand the truth based on the
> short teachings,
> without the explicit details, alone.  In this sense,
> people who need to
> study abhidhammas to correctly understand dhammas
> have in fact
> "inferior" accumulations than the people who can
> understand it based on
> the suttas alone.
> 4) Because of the explicitness of the abhidhammas,
> there are less
> leeway to interpret dhammas as one pleases.  Because
> of this reason, if
> the abhidhammas in fact teach the truth, it may lead
> a person with
> certain kind of accumultations less astrayed from
> the truth.  Because
> the suttra is not as explicit, we have more tendency
> to interpret it
> anyway we like.
> 5) The elements of abhidhammas are in fact within
> the sutta itself.  I
> have only personally seen a section of the sutta
> which explicitly
> mentions the dhammas in the abhidhammas manner.  
> However, I have heard
> that the abhidhammas are in fact, extracts from the
> suttas.
> 6) The main teacher from whom we quote frequently,
> Tan A. Sujin,
> repeated time and time again that what we must
> compare the teachings
> from all the three tipitikas: the meanings of the
> teachings must match
> in order for us to have any kind of confidence that
> what we understand
> is the truth.  We, as somebody who studies
> abhidhammas, do not hold
> abhidhammas to be the ultimate authority: we hold
> all three tipitikas
> to be the authority.
> 7) Hence, I think the main argument for studying the
> Abhidhammas first,
> is to make sure that we correctly grasp the
> fundamentals of buddhism
> (anicca, dukkha, and perhaps most importantly,
> anatta) before we wander
> on from there.
> 8) I agree with you that learning and understanding
> the intricate
> details of the teachings alone doesn't allow one to
> progress toward
> becoming enlightened.  In fact, I am sure other
> people in this group
> agreed to this as well.  Only directly knowing the
> truth can one
> progress.  A. Sujin said as much.  However, we still
> need to
> differentiate what is the truth and what isn't.
> 
> > Have you mastered the lesser Dhamma of the Suttas?
> I am not asking
> > you to
> > respond. I am asking you if you have asked
> yourself this question.
> I have neither mastered the vinaya, the sutta, nor
> the abhidhamma.  I
> am actively engaging in the studies of both the
> sutta and the
> abhidhammas.  In fact, I totally agree that if I can
> master the
> teachings based on the sutta alone, there is no need
> for me to study
> abhidhammas.
> 
> > But this is the heart of your question: The Truth,
> so called, is not
> > something you “get.” The Truth is what is left
> when 
=== message truncated ===



 
2283 From:  
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 8:18am
Subject: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  I cited this recently in a post to Robert and Gayan.  Because of its 
pertinence to the subject of papañca, Robert asked me to post it
to the group for comments.  So, excerpted from Access to Insight at 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-30.html,

Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Good, 
Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts of a 
great person: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who 
is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for 
one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not 
for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is 
aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose 
mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is 
confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one 
whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with 
discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Now then, 
Anuruddha, think the eighth thought of a great person: 'This Dhamma 
is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-
complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.'

Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30
Anuruddha Sutta
To Anuruddha


________________________

 
2284 From:  
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 217

 
  Dear friends
Just came back from Cabodia trip yesterday.
We were so overwhelm about the hospitality
and the enthusiastic of the Cambodian friends
 It was an unforgetable experience to see
at least couple thousands people came and geet
us at the airport and the at the temple.
I got to meet sara, jonaton, sukin(at the foundation)
and see khun Amara,nina,ursula and many more.
 we all had a really nice time and real 
intensive study.

Kom had me pass on the question to A. sujin
"can satipattana arises at the senses door"?
yes, it can,because if maha kusolajitta
(four with panna,four without)can arises
at the senses door!!! so can satipattana.
actually satipattana can arises through
the six doors.
 Kom, I hope this will answer your question,
I wish everyone could be here with me so
we'd have more interact between our group.
for now, thanks to the internet and the web team
and especially Tarn A. sujin.
more later,now we'r going to the foundation
for more study.
with metta,
O

 
2285 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 10:45am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 217

 
  > Kom had me pass on the question to A. sujin
> "can satipattana arises at the senses door"?
> yes, it can,because if maha kusolajitta
> (four with panna,four without)can arises
> at the senses door!!! so can satipattana.
> actually satipattana can arises through
> the six doors.


Dear Khuns O and Kom,


In her hurry to get to the discussions Khun O probably forgot to add 
that it always starts through the mind dvara, but since the citta 
arise and fall away so rapidly that by the time the tiny instant of 
study is over, many citta has arisen in between, including the sense 
doors in alternations with the mind doors, so it is impossible to 
stop the train of sati either, as imperceptible or infinitessimally 
short as it is.  So sati runs through them all as well.

Amara

 
2286 From:  
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 10:46am
Subject: Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Friends,

Sorry that this got posted twice, I seem to have caught the multiple 
email problem.  

This topic originally came up when I was telling Sarah that I tend to 
over-simplify things.  I used to think this was a virtue, and I 
remembered this sutta where the Buddha praises 'delighting in non-
complication', which I always took to support this ditthi of mine.

One of the many wise cautions that the Ajahn of my old monastery made 
frequently was against 'proliferations'.  (I'm reminded of Jody's 
recent mention of Mandlebrot Sets).  I never really knew what he was 
talking about, except in a vague sense, and just learned recently 
from Gayan that this is the word usually used to translate
'papañca'.

Now I'm sure that simplicity of thought can be kusala or akusala--but 
what, if anything, has this to do with papañca?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

 
2287 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 11:15am
Subject: Re: 8thoughts

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> Memory jog:
> You commented (in an private letter to sarah) on
> where i had
> said to gayan that it is so amazing that anyone
> could decipher
> such a complex mess of happenings (or words to that
> effect). You
> said to sarah that you wondered whether it was
> simpler than we
> think or words to that effect.
> look forward to your comments.

I do remember that, now you mention it!  Gayan had
been talking about the incredible flood of 
vangcetis(?) vangchaka akusala dhammas(?) and how the
Buddha had had the keys to decipher them all.  My
comment to Sarah was something to the effect that,
rather than having a great many keys, that maybe he
only had one key that worked on all the ciphers, and
that maybe it was thus simpler than you and Gayan had
suggested--this led to the subject of simplicity.

So, had the Buddha accumulated detailed paññá of all
the cittas and cetasikas before his enlightenment, so
that avijja couldn't arise in regard to them?  Or had
he acquired some other, simpler kind of paññá that
conditioned the non-arising of avijja in a more
general way?

Thanks again...mike





 
2288 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 11:16am
Subject: Re: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

 
  > Just a question to the person from Cornell, the biologist. Have you
> investigated
> the workings of the Mandebrot set, etc. Now that's an interesting
> mathmatical 
> phenomena!


Dear Jody,
I have been trying to catch up with the group mail since my absence 
and came across your question on Mandelbrot, to which I seemed to 
have seen no answer, unless I am mistaken.  I hope you won't mind a 
few comments.  Having just returned from Cambodia which has some of 
the finest stone carvings in the world, especially at Ban Taey Srei 
(around 9-10th  century AD), built of pink sandstone and with fine 
layered carvings with paper thin edges going up to six inches deep, 
I couldn't help relating the visual renderings of the mathematical 
calculations of Mandelbrot especially the intricate extremities, to 
Asian art, whether Indian, Burmese, Thai, Laotian, Cambodian or 
Indonesian.  (etc.)  I also have always wondered at how 
mathematicians and physicians often have an ear for music and 
frequently play or sing very well.  Is the sense of proportion and 
scales mathematical to a certain degree?  What distinguishes the 
really beautiful creations from the mediocre?  In the end I think it 
is the individual's touch, the accumulations of the person's 
proficiency as well as taste and judgement, not all the mandelbrot 
visualizations on the web are beautiful, though all are intriguing, 
because of the very nature of the calculations.  

Still, I am reminded that true beauty (in the Buddhist sense) is 
something truthful and useful, knowing or appreciating art or even 
mathematics is not as useful to me, as attractive and pleasing to 
the senses as they are, as being mindful that they really are: what 
appears through the six dvara- generally the eye and the ear and the 
mind, sometimes through the body-sense, tongue and nose, such as the 
culinary arts, etc., and we are not only attached to our selves but 
to all that is pleasing to us.  In reality Cambodia is only in the 
memory, now, but still so real although it doesn't appear through 
any senses but the mind dvara.  It is only a concept at the moment, 
as is Mandelbrot's calculations, while what is true beauty is the 
truth before us because it is useful and completely harmless: 
mindfulness of the characteristics of realities before us, which 
could gradually accumulate knowledge of sight, visual objects, 
touches, even as we sit in front of the computer.  And long trains 
of thought that brought us to Cambodia, Mandelbrot, art and the 
dhamma, which, if the characteristics of thought were studied as 
well, would bring us that much closer to the truth and true beauty.  

Because even the loveliest art must perish through time, (I really 
felt dosa to see the destruction left by war and vandalism at the 
ancient ruins) only true knowledge could remain your personal 
treasure through samsara, if you knew how to accumulate it.  None 
could take that from you no matter where or what your next lives 
will be, and you could increase it at all times whenever there is 
study of realities before you and gradually the knowledge will grow 
so that once it is strong enough there would be no more mistaking 
anything for what it is not: calculations are organization of 
thoughts in a pattern, appearing through the mind dvara, remembered 
by the sanna (memory), another reality to be studied as such.

I don't know if what your friend wanted to discuss has anything to 
do with what I said, please tell us what you think,

Amara

 
2289 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 11:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digest Number 217

 
  Dear Amara,
thanks for clarifying this! I had been pondering it since O
posted it.
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: >  
> > Kom had me pass on the question to A. sujin
> > "can satipattana arises at the senses door"?
> > yes, it can,because if maha kusolajitta
> > (four with panna,four without)can arises
> > at the senses door!!! so can satipattana.
> > actually satipattana can arises through
> > the six doors.
> 
> 
> Dear Khuns O and Kom,
> 
> 
> In her hurry to get to the discussions Khun O probably forgot
> to add 
> that it always starts through the mind dvara, but since the
> citta 
> arise and fall away so rapidly that by the time the tiny
> instant of 
> study is over, many citta has arisen in between, including the
> sense 
> doors in alternations with the mind doors, so it is impossible
> to 
> stop the train of sati either, as imperceptible or
> infinitessimally 
> short as it is.  So sati runs through them all as well.
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
2290 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 0:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Thanks, Kom,

I think this makes sense in the context of
paticcasammupada and the Four Noble Truths also. 
Thanks for your detailed analyis of just how.  This is
often the case, isn't it--that an explanation in one
model works just as well in apparently very different
ones.  I always favor the simpler model, I think, just
because I'm lazy! 

-- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> I am just parroting here, without much
> understanding...

Could've fooled me (though that's not saying much!)
 
mike


 
2291 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 1:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 

 wrote:

> Phra Dhammdharo was a longtime student of Khun sujin
> until his
> untimely death when he was the pasenger in a van
> that crashed. I
> think he was on the way to give a Dhamma talk at a
> airforce base
> at the time. His name was alan driver. Alan weller
> in England is
> the publisher of Cetasikas and other books.

Thanks for the clarifiction.

Sometimes laypeople think that

> they should
> try to imitate the lifestyle of a monk but this
> doesn't seem to
> be the intention of the Buddha.

Yes, I've done this myself.  It's stupid.  It shows a
serious view-problem, usually with lots of mana...

> Monks have different sila to laypeople and if they
> break these
> it is a serious matter too. 

True!  I read an interesting post on triple-gem(?)
from a Burmese layman, who seemed scholarly.  He said
that ordaining actually increases your chances of
being reborn in a lower realm, because with more
precpts, you have more opportunities to break them. 
Actually I have my doubts about this, but it's an
interesting thought.  

> We can live life as a
> layperson and
> not make any akusala kamma-patha (completed bad
> action). 

Neat trick!  For a monk OR a layperson...

> However
> one who lives the life of a monk correctly, and that
> is only
> possible with good understanding, 

An important point...

> is very protected.
> They are
> guarding the 6 sense doors. They see danger in the
> slightest
> fault. Of course this is also possible for the
> layman; it is how
> we should live. 

You're right, but MUCH more difficult, living in the
world.  The influences that bind us into the rounds
are FAR more pervasive.

> I agree. As i said to sarah and you off list I think
> you could
> do a LOT of good as a monk. Please think of me as a
> supporter
> for requisites if you do take the robes. 

Thanks again for your encouragement.  I think this
would be great, for both of us...

mn


 
2292 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 10, 2000 8:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Mike wrote:
---  wrote: > Dear Friends,
This topic originally came up when I was telling Sarah that I
> tend to over-simplify things.  I used to think this was a
virtue, and I remembered this sutta where the Buddha praises
'delighting in
> non-complication', which I always took to support this ditthi
of mine.One of the many wise cautions that the Ajahn of my old
> monastery made frequently was against 'proliferations'.  (I'm
reminded of Jody's recent mention of Mandlebrot Sets).  I never
really knew what he was talking about, except in a vague sense,
and just learned recently from Gayan that this is the word
usually used to translate 'papañca'. Now I'm sure that
simplicity of thought can be kusala or akusala--but 
> what, if anything, has this to do with papañca?">>>
 
As we have said before papañca, translated either as
complication or proliferation is actually tanha, ditthi and
mana. Even when we are not thinking these kilesa may be present
. Animals don't think in complicated ways but they have a full
dose of papanca.
How then can we understand it? Let me go a little off the topic,
humour me if you like, and see if any of this makes sense.

It is easy enough to think about anatta and believe that there
is no self but until dhammas are seen as they
 are it is still intellectual. Until nama is seen
as nama and rupa as rupa there is a latent idea of a
self. Now hardness appears but does it directly appear
to panna? Hardness is rupa but the experience of hardness
is nama- completely different, yet aren't they mixed up?.
This is because it is hidden by papanca, there is still
complication and proliferation but at a more subtle level than
thinking in words.  To wear away these proliferations needs
direct awareness again and again, and that done without wanting
results.
It is no simple matter. Even when we study abhidhamma the
tendency is to grasp that too, as a system, but
it should be fundamentally an aid for studying the present
moment in the right way.  Applied correctly it goes directly
against complication and proliferation. The details help us to
see the different aspects and functions of nama and rupa so that
they can be distinguished so that there can be seeing things as
they are, without the overlay, the complication (papanca) of
self.

I have heard khun sujin tell new people too, who say they are to
busy to study that when they wake in the middle of the night
they should take the opportunity. It is certainly not that
anyone would say don't go to a quiet place. They can be a
supporting condition for awareness and insight. However, the
essential basis is right understanding and we need to check and
see if that is firm intellectually. When we are rushed, perhaps
in some small crisis at work does sati and panna keep arising,
and here I am talking only about the intellectual understanding
(although very deep levels can arise too), that remembers that
there is no one. That understands that it is only nama and rupa
arising and performing their functions. 
Do you feel like a puppet? One that is tugged and pulled by
desire. This is what we are. When we breath this is simply rupa
conditioned by citta, no self. When we stand up it is only
because  certain types of nama arise that condition certain
types of rupa. These reflections can become normal - and they
support direct awareness. All through the day there is touch -
hardness, heat, cold and vibration. We might think we are having
satipatthana just by noticing them. But usually this is merely
sanna (perception) and vinnana (consciousnness)which have as
their function knowing. They can be associated with tanha or
ditthi or mana (the papanca). Panna (wisdom) arises with
detachment, and experiences the very same dhammas, their
characteristics don't change but they are perceived, to some
degree as simply nama and rupa. So many levels of this before
vipassana can arise. Do we sometimes have a headache during the
day- this is simply namas and rupas again. If it is seen with
panna it is simply that - not "my headache" Do you have the idea
that mindprocesses are taking place in the brain? This is simply
concept based on avijja. Citta arises all over the body, even at
the feet, as does feeling and other cetasikas when dhammas are
experienced through the body door. Gradually  these different
levels of understanding become our way of life and little by
little rub self and ignorance away. 
And then life changes, as it must, we become involved: in
career, have an affair, get bored with studying dhammas or
Dhamma. This is the way it always goes, and then the wave breaks
and again the priority is understanding of the moment. This too
is all anatta, conditioned. Do we think that we made it happen,
"we" have to put in the effort? Then we are still caught up in
atta-sanna. 
A persistent theme on this list is how easily and often we take
akusala (unwholesome) to be kusala (wholesome). For instance,
why do we take wrong view and wrong practice for their
opposites? This is because the view of self, sakkyaditthi
pervades our very existence, it is the post to which we are
tethered and we run around it -sometimes to the north, sometimes
to the south, and sometimes to the east and the west. We tend to
assume that now we live in the north, (since we came across
Buddhism) we are better off than when we were in the cold south,
and we might think we are free of that terrible restraint.
However, it may still be as strong as ever but concealed by our
improved existence. This relates to how we define papanca  as
those who develop samadhi, which tends to reduce thinking (in
words) are more likely to see large changes in their life and so
equate this with deep wisdom. 

In different ways akusala claims itself as kusala. In Japan when
Aum shinrkyo cult were at their peak, just before they released
the sarin gas, there were several complaints about their
activities. One well known professor at a Buddhist university
actively defended them against any criticism. He wasn't a member
but, as he explained after the subway attack, he felt that as a
Buddhist sect "I must protect them". And it looks like kusala
(wholesomeness) doesn't it: we are saying in effect that all
religion has the right to grow as it wishes. This is a tolerant
attitude. The akusala side (vancaka) is not been willing to look
at any bad points or wrongviews. The other extreme is
suppressing any dissident views - and we saw this happen in
China and Russia and Cambodia. This seems to be benevolence;
protecting the people from their opium.
 I use these obvious examples but we are sometimes at fault too.
We look down on the members of other religions or those we think
have wrong view within Buddhism: this is conceit, or refined
dosa, maybe we criticize them but without any compassion. On the
other hand maybe we are very tolerant in our attitude to what
others say or think, but this can simply mean that we do not
really distinguish rightview from wrong - we are then vulnerable
to the siren calls of those who misapprehend. 

Those who study Abhidhamma are not immune. For some it is so
removed from daily life that they see it as an academic subject;
it has minimal effect on removing wrong view, Even if we believe
in not-self this can be hiding an idea of self (who believes).
We can see this when we consider anatta- sometimes the
contemplation seems to cut to the bone- and other times it is
pedestrian, just going through the motions. 
It is good to know these things.  This is wisdom too. Panna at
the level of considering should not be disdained.
In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) that 
Kotthita asked Sariputta: 
"'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 
'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for
apprehending, for getting rid of.' 
'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing
right understanding into existence?' 
'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right
understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person)
and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions
for bringing wise attention into existence.'" 
The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening
carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what
we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built
up. It is a slow process but I can't see a faster way. 

Robert







 
2293 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 4:24am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/11/00 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

It is easy enough to think about anatta and believe that there
is no self but until dhammas are seen as they
 are it is still intellectual. Until nama is seen
as nama and rupa as rupa there is a latent idea of a
self. Now hardness appears but does it directly appear
to panna? Hardness is rupa but the experience of hardness
is nama- completely different, yet aren't they mixed up?.
This is because it is hidden by papanca, there is still
complication and proliferation but at a more subtle level than
thinking in words.  To wear away these proliferations needs
direct awareness again and again, and that done without wanting
results.

___________________________

This answered my question regarding the experience of trying
to classify and identify nama and rupa.

___________________________

It is no simple matter. Even when we study abhidhamma the
tendency is to grasp that too, as a system, but
it should be fundamentally an aid for studying the present
moment in the right way.  Applied correctly it goes directly
against complication and proliferation. The details help us to
see the different aspects and functions of nama and rupa so that
they can be distinguished so that there can be seeing things as
they are, without the overlay, the complication (papanca) of
self.

____________________________

Thanks, this is helpful to my study

____________________________

I have heard khun sujin tell new people too, who say they are to
busy to study that when they wake in the middle of the night
they should take the opportunity. It is certainly not that
anyone would say don't go to a quiet place. They can be a
supporting condition for awareness and insight. However, the
essential basis is right understanding and we need to check and
see if that is firm intellectually. When we are rushed, perhaps
in some small crisis at work does sati and panna keep arising,
and here I am talking only about the intellectual understanding
(although very deep levels can arise too), that remembers that
there is no one. That understands that it is only nama and rupa
arising and performing their functions.

____________________________

People who are engaged for every passing moment of the day!
Now that's busy!

____________________________

Do you feel like a puppet? One that is tugged and pulled by
desire. This is what we are. When we breath this is simply rupa
conditioned by citta, no self. When we stand up it is only
because  certain types of nama arise that condition certain
types of rupa. These reflections can become normal - and they
support direct awareness. All through the day there is touch -
hardness, heat, cold and vibration. We might think we are having
satipatthana just by noticing them. But usually this is merely
sanna (perception) and vinnana (consciousnness)which have as
their function knowing. They can be associated with tanha or
ditthi or mana (the papanca). Panna (wisdom) arises with
detachment, and experiences the very same dhammas, their
characteristics don't change but they are perceived, to some
degree as simply nama and rupa. So many levels of this before
vipassana can arise. Do we sometimes have a headache during the
day- this is simply namas and rupas again. If it is seen with
panna it is simply that - not "my headache" Do you have the idea
that mindprocesses are taking place in the brain? This is simply
concept based on avijja. Citta arises all over the body, even at
the feet, as does feeling and other cetasikas when dhammas are
experienced through the body door. Gradually  these different
levels of understanding become our way of life and little by
little rub self and ignorance away.

__________________________

The more I comprehend this existence as said above, the more
I feel at ease with where I am and want to go. In the same fashion
as stated by the four noble truths.

__________________________

And then life changes, as it must, we become involved: in
career, have an affair, get bored with studying dhammas or
Dhamma. This is the way it always goes, and then the wave breaks
and again the priority is understanding of the moment. This too
is all anatta, conditioned. Do we think that we made it happen,
"we" have to put in the effort? Then we are still caught up in
atta-sanna.

____________________________

I have been contemplating this very passage.

____________________________

A persistent theme on this list is how easily and often we take
akusala (unwholesome) to be kusala (wholesome). For instance,
why do we take wrong view and wrong practice for their
opposites? This is because the view of self, sakkyaditthi
pervades our very existence, it is the post to which we are
tethered and we run around it -sometimes to the north, sometimes
to the south, and sometimes to the east and the west. We tend to
assume that now we live in the north, (since we came across
Buddhism) we are better off than when we were in the cold south,
and we might think we are free of that terrible restraint.
However, it may still be as strong as ever but concealed by our
improved existence. This relates to how we define papanca  as
those who develop samadhi, which tends to reduce thinking (in
words) are more likely to see large changes in their life and so
equate this with deep wisdom.

____________________________

Yes, attachment is attachment no matter what form it takes.

____________________________

In different ways akusala claims itself as kusala. In Japan when
Aum shinrkyo cult were at their peak, just before they released
the sarin gas, there were several complaints about their
activities. One well known professor at a Buddhist university
actively defended them against any criticism. He wasn't a member
but, as he explained after the subway attack, he felt that as a
Buddhist sect "I must protect them". And it looks like kusala
(wholesomeness) doesn't it: we are saying in effect that all
religion has the right to grow as it wishes. This is a tolerant
attitude. The akusala side (vancaka) is not been willing to look
at any bad points or wrongviews. The other extreme is
suppressing any dissident views - and we saw this happen in
China and Russia and Cambodia. This seems to be benevolence;
protecting the people from their opium.
 I use these obvious examples but we are sometimes at fault too.
We look down on the members of other religions or those we think
have wrong view within Buddhism: this is conceit, or refined
dosa, maybe we criticize them but without any compassion. On the
other hand maybe we are very tolerant in our attitude to what
others say or think, but this can simply mean that we do not
really distinguish rightview from wrong - we are then vulnerable
to the siren calls of those who misapprehend.

_____________________________

This kind of situation has been my problem in the recent past, as
a self- professed "sitter on the fence". How does one mediate between
these extremes with wisdom and compassion? Do as the Lord Buddha
said.

_____________________________

Those who study Abhidhamma are not immune. For some it is so
removed from daily life that they see it as an academic subject;
it has minimal effect on removing wrong view, Even if we believe
in not-self this can be hiding an idea of self (who believes).
We can see this when we consider anatta- sometimes the
contemplation seems to cut to the bone- and other times it is
pedestrian, just going through the motions. 
It is good to know these things.  This is wisdom too. Panna at
the level of considering should not be disdained.
In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) that 
Kotthita asked Sariputta: 
"'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 
'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for
apprehending, for getting rid of.' 
'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing
right understanding into existence?' 
'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right
understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person)
and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions
for bringing wise attention into existence.'" 
The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening
carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what
we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built
up. It is a slow process but I can't see a faster way.

Robert
_______________________________

Thanks, Robert. At present, I'll have to do with the study of books
until nama and rupa present otherwise.

Jody.

 
2294 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 4:37am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas ?

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: amara chay
Sent: 12/10/00 4:16 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mulapariyaya and different abhidhammas?

Dear Jody,
I have been trying to catch up with the group mail since my absence 
and came across your question on Mandelbrot, to which I seemed to 
have seen no answer, unless I am mistaken.  I hope you won't mind a 
few comments.  Having just returned from Cambodia which has some of 
the finest stone carvings in the world, especially at Ban Taey Srei 
(around 9-10th  century AD), built of pink sandstone and with fine 
layered carvings with paper thin edges going up to six inches deep, 
I couldn't help relating the visual renderings of the mathematical 
calculations of Mandelbrot especially the intricate extremities, to 
Asian art, whether Indian, Burmese, Thai, Laotian, Cambodian or 
Indonesian.  (etc.)  I also have always wondered at how 
mathematicians and physicians often have an ear for music and 
frequently play or sing very well.  Is the sense of proportion and 
scales mathematical to a certain degree?  What distinguishes the 
really beautiful creations from the mediocre?  In the end I think it 
is the individual's touch, the accumulations of the person's 
proficiency as well as taste and judgement, not all the mandelbrot 
visualizations on the web are beautiful, though all are intriguing, 
because of the very nature of the calculations.

______________________________

Hello Amara,

I know of a local guitar teacher who teaches mathematics, at the same
time as teaching to play the guitar. For example, spanish and classic
guitar playing and the performance of scales. I also pondered the
similarities of design between the Mandebrot and existing cultural
manifestations. Actually, this was aided by the documentary which was
narrated by Arthur, C. Clarke.

______________________________

Still, I am reminded that true beauty (in the Buddhist sense) is 
something truthful and useful, knowing or appreciating art or even 
mathematics is not as useful to me, as attractive and pleasing to 
the senses as they are, as being mindful that they really are: what 
appears through the six dvara- generally the eye and the ear and the 
mind, sometimes through the body-sense, tongue and nose, such as the 
culinary arts, etc., and we are not only attached to our selves but 
to all that is pleasing to us.  In reality Cambodia is only in the 
memory, now, but still so real although it doesn't appear through 
any senses but the mind dvara.  It is only a concept at the moment, 
as is Mandelbrot's calculations, while what is true beauty is the 
truth before us because it is useful and completely harmless: 
mindfulness of the characteristics of realities before us, which 
could gradually accumulate knowledge of sight, visual objects, 
touches, even as we sit in front of the computer.  And long trains 
of thought that brought us to Cambodia, Mandelbrot, art and the 
dhamma, which, if the characteristics of thought were studied as 
well, would bring us that much closer to the truth and true beauty.  

________________________________

Yes, thanks.

________________________________

Because even the loveliest art must perish through time, (I really 
felt dosa to see the destruction left by war and vandalism at the 
ancient ruins) only true knowledge could remain your personal 
treasure through samsara, if you knew how to accumulate it.  None 
could take that from you no matter where or what your next lives 
will be, and you could increase it at all times whenever there is 
study of realities before you and gradually the knowledge will grow 
so that once it is strong enough there would be no more mistaking 
anything for what it is not: calculations are organization of 
thoughts in a pattern, appearing through the mind dvara, remembered 
by the sanna (memory), another reality to be studied as such.

I don't know if what your friend wanted to discuss has anything to 
do with what I said, please tell us what you think,

Amara

________________________________

This was perfect. Many thanks, Jody.

 
2295 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 4:45am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: 
Sent: 12/10/00 1:18 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

I cited this recently in a post to Robert and Gayan.  Because of its 
pertinence to the subject of papañca, Robert asked me to post it
to the group for comments.  So, excerpted from Access to Insight at 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-30.html,

Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Good, 
Anuruddha, very good. It's good that you think these thoughts of a 
great person: 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who 
is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for 
one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not 
for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is 
aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose 
mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is 
confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one 
whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with 
discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Now then, 
Anuruddha, think the eighth thought of a great person: 'This Dhamma 
is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-
complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.'

Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30
Anuruddha Sutta
To Anuruddha


________________________

In other words, is this stating that the Dhamma will not appear to
those that have not accumulated the right conditions? And is the
"great person" an araahant?

Jody.

 
2296 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 4:56am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma study

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/9/00 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma study

Dear Jody,
I don't know the book you mentioned but if there are any
interesting or doubtful points you are welcome to bring them up.
If you want to read other books by Nina van Gorkom the NZ libary
service will be able to get them for you through a request at
your local library (small charge). I know they have "THE world
in the Buddhist Sense" and "Buddhism in daily LIfe" at Auckland
Public Lib. They might also have "Cetasikas".
Good comments you made about how the path can suit any
lifestyle. Yes, there were monks and nuns- and among those some
lived in the forest and some stayed close to the city. Some took
on the dhutanga (ascetic practices), some didn't. All types
could attain nibbana. 
Among layfollowers there were those who kept 8 or sometimes 10
precepts and some lived fairly secluded lives. Others were 
attached to their wealth and woman and children, and lived lives
of luxury; but both types attained stages of enlightenment. On
this list too you will find many variations in lifestyles.

__________________________

Hello Robert,

The university has "Buddhism in Daily life", I'll look into the
others as soon as I've finished with the lot I've got now.

__________________________
 
So good that you see that this life is short and the path is
very gradual. Yes in this way we have a sense of urgency - our
human life will soon end, we must strive. On the other hand
knowing the path is so long one stops looking for results and
instead studies the present moment; as this is the only way to
come to see. When the time is right, when enough understanding
has accumulated, nibbana will be experienced - it will happen
whether we want it to or not. No one could stop it.

Robert

__________________________

This view is still very intellectual, I'm afraid. I am far from
a "great person" and my attachments are great. However, I feel 
confident that the present is becoming clearer, gradually...

Jody.

 
 
2297 From: Lloyd Field   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 7:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dana to Myanmar?

 
  Hello: What a great
idea. Do you have an e-mail or web address for the International Buddhist
University?
Thanks........................Lloyd  


----- Original Message -----
From: Sukinderpal Narula 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 4:25 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dana to Myanmar?


> Dear group,
> I have taken the chance to do merit as suggested by Robert, by
> visiting the foundation today and obtaining some books and sent
> them to U Han Htay in Myanmar.
> Fearing that I might be taking too many copies from a limited
> amount of stock, I chose to take and send the following:-
> 10 copies of 'Realities and concepts'.
> 20 copies each of the 'Mental development' series.
> 10 copies of 'Abhidhamma in Daily life'.
> 20 copies of the 'Letters'
> 20 copies of the thin grey book the name of which I don't remember.
> This I mention in case if anyone who might have a better estimate of
> the stock of books at the foundation, might see the possibility of
> sending more copies and do it.
>
> Sukin.
>
> Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
> > Dear group,
> > I sent a parcel of books (30 copies of Realities and Concepts,
> > Boriharnawanaket) to Burma (Bhikkhu Bodhi gave me the address
> > and said they would appeciate it).
> > It was to the International Buddhist University in Rangoon.
> > I got a nice letter back today.
> > "thank you for the valuable package. We are now teaching
> > vipassana and satipatthana and the subject of 'Realities and
> > concepts' is very informative and useful to us. As we are
> > teaching Nuns and bhikkhus also at the "sukra Theravada
> > university" we can also distribute these books there. This book
> > helps us with mental development in daily life. many thanks!"
> > They then ask if we have other English titles and whether we
> > could send them copies of those as well as more copies of R and
> > C.
> > So for those of you who are now in Bangkok and would like to
> > make merit take your chance!
> > The Address is
> > U Han Htay
> > International Buddhist University
> > NO.98 , 46th street
> > Yangoon
> > Myanmar
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

 
2298 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dana to Myanmar?

 
  Sorry Lloyd,
The letter didn't give any email address but you might be able
to do a web search and see whether they have a homepage.
robert
--- Lloyd Field  wrote: > Hello: What a
great
> idea. Do you have an e-mail or web address for the
> International Buddhist
> University?
> Thanks........................Lloyd  
> 
> 



 
2299 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 11:33am
Subject: Re: Dana to Myanmar?

 
  > Hello: What a great
> idea. Do you have an e-mail or web address for the International 
Buddhist
> University?


Hello, and welcome, Lloyd, and anumodana with your kusala cetana!!!

Amara

 
2300 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 11:39am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Jody,
Thanks for your reply, which showed your careful consideration.
It's always nice to know that someone is reading what I write. 
Robert
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: >  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > Sent: 12/11/00 1:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great
> Person
> 
> It is easy enough to think about anatta and believe that there
> is no self but until dhammas are seen as they
>  are it is still intellectual. Until nama is seen
> as nama and rupa as rupa there is a latent idea of a
> self. Now hardness appears but does it directly appear
> to panna? Hardness is rupa but the experience of hardness
> is nama- completely different, yet aren't they mixed up?.
> This is because it is hidden by papanca, there is still
> complication and proliferation but at a more subtle level than
> thinking in words.  To wear away these proliferations needs
> direct awareness again and again, and that done without
> wanting
> results.
> 
> ___________________________
> 
> This answered my question regarding the experience of trying
> to classify and identify nama and rupa.
> 
> ___________________________
> 
> 


 
2301 From:  
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:03pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear jodi,

No , this was not refering to an 'arahant'
the pali phrase is 'maha(great) purisa(man/person) vitakka(thoughts)'
If I remember correctly , after this guidence by Buddha , the ven.anuruddha
became an arahant.
When the great thoughts came to him he was not an arahant.

And again it displays the 'anatta'-ness of dhammas.
Only because of the conditions were there, the 'great thoughts' occured.
They were not really made up by a thinking process done by ven.anuruddha.


rgds.


In other words, is this stating that the Dhamma will not appear to
those that have not accumulated the right conditions? And is the
"great person" an araahant?

Jody.

 

2302 From:  
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 5:38pm
Subject: Re: message from a friend

 
  >>Sometimes laypeople think that they should try to imitate the 
lifestyle of a monk but this doesn't seem to be the intention of the 
Buddha.
> Yes, I've done this myself.  It's stupid.  It shows a serious view-
problem, usually with lots of mana...

Sometimes it is true... But being fortunate to be a good monk is 
meritoruos deed accumulated from the pass and present.

> > Monks have different sila to laypeople and if they break these it 
is a serious matter too. 
> True!  I read an interesting post on triple-gem(?)from a Burmese 
layman, who seemed scholarly.  He said that ordaining actually 
increases your chances of being reborn in a lower realm, because with 
more precepts, you have more opportunities to break them. Actually I 
have my doubts about this, but it's an interesting thought.  

It might seem to be true. But when come to the point that regards 
Sila as the protection for a practitioner like monk, he has a better 
chance to purify himself and protected from defilements. I remember 
that there was a layperson during the Buddha's time renounced as a 
monk for one day and died immediately afterward. When was asked where 
was him after the death, Buddha told that he had been born in a deva 
realm.(I hope someone have come across this story too) Besides, I 
have read an article of an Ajahn that told a monk practise only those 
precepts that he has no doubt and clear.  

> > We can live life as a layperson and not make any akusala kamma-
patha (completed bad action). 
> 
> Neat trick!  For a monk OR a layperson...

I think the point is not being a layperson or monk, but of self-
awareness

> > However
> > one who lives the life of a monk correctly, and that
> > is only
> > possible with good understanding, 
> 
> An important point...
> 
> > is very protected.
> > They are
> > guarding the 6 sense doors. They see danger in the
> > slightest
> > fault. Of course this is also possible for the
> > layman; it is how
> > we should live. 

100% agree ^^~
 
> You're right, but MUCH more difficult, living in the world.  The 
influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR more pervasive.

You will not afraid of these if you have enough confidence in you and 
the dhamma you've insighted.

> > I agree. As i said to sarah and you off list I think you could  
do a LOT of good as a monk. Please think of me as a supporter for 
requisites if you do take the robes. 

>Thanks again for your encouragement.  I think this would be great, 
for both of us...

I wish you with full hearted. Sadhu!

 
2303 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 6:10pm
Subject: Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear dasoka,
Thanks for your useful and kind remarks and welcome to the
discussion. I found it especially helpful where you wrote:

---  wrote: 
MIKE: > You're right, but MUCH more difficult, living in the
world. 
> The 
> influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR more
> pervasive.
> 
> DASOKA:You will not afraid of these if you have enough
confidence in
> you and 
> the dhamma you've insighted.

I think this is difficult to comprehend but true. We know the
laylife is one of dust and busyness but insight can develop at
any time, even while we are busy. This is not to deny that the
monks life is the superior one if lived with insight, but we
should not feel that we are hindered by our life in the world.
The quintessence of buddhism is not lifestyle but panna
(wisdom).
The Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.63
Migajala Sutta
Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having
bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he
said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A person
living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent, lord, is one a
person living alone, and to what extent is one a person living
with a companion?" 
"Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable,
pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing -- and
a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them.
As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them,
delight arises. There being delight, he is impassioned. Being
impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the fetter of
delight is said to be a person living with a companion.
 
......and a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain
fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome them, or
remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being no delight,
he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is not
fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of delight is said to
be a person living alone. 

"A person living in this way -- even if he lives near a village,
associating with monks & nuns, with male & female lay followers,
with king & royal ministers, with sectarians & their disciples
-- is still said to be living alone. A person living alone is
said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is his
companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he is said to
be a person living alone." 
Robert





2304 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2000 9:16pm
Subject: Re: message from a friend

 
  >  I remember 
> that there was a layperson during the Buddha's time renounced as a 
> monk for one day and died immediately afterward. When was asked 
where 
> was him after the death, Buddha told that he had been born in a deva 
> realm.(I hope someone have come across this story too) Besides, I 
> have read an article of an Ajahn that told a monk practise only 
those 
> precepts that he has no doubt and clear.  


Dear Dasoka,

Welcome to the list and thank you for the interesting story above.  If 
you ever come across the references again please tell us about it, I 
would be interested in seeing the details.  

Thanks in advance,

Amara

 
2307 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 4:34am
Subject: Question?

 
  Kia ora koutou,

I will begin letter writing to a family in Thailand.
Could someone tell me how to appropriately address
the family in the letter, ie. how to start and finish
the letter, and maybe some everyday thai phrases.

Any help would be much appreciated, Jody.

 
2308 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 9:14am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Gayan,

A 'maha' answer, sir!  Saadhu.

mike

---  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear jodi,
> 
> No , this was not refering to an 'arahant'
> the pali phrase is 'maha(great) purisa(man/person)
> vitakka(thoughts)'
> If I remember correctly , after this guidence by
> Buddha , the ven.anuruddha
> became an arahant.
> When the great thoughts came to him he was not an
> arahant.
> 
> And again it displays the 'anatta'-ness of dhammas.
> Only because of the conditions were there, the
> 'great thoughts' occured.
> They were not really made up by a thinking process
> done by ven.anuruddha.
> 
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, is this stating that the Dhamma will
> not appear to
> those that have not accumulated the right
> conditions? And is the
> "great person" an araahant?
> 
> Jody.
> 



 
2309 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 9:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear Dasoka,

Nice to meet you! I found your response admirable. 
And I think I know the (wonderful) sutta you referred
to.
 
---  wrote:

> I remember 
> that there was a layperson during the Buddha's time
> renounced as a 
> monk for one day and died immediately afterward.
> When was asked where 
> was him after the death, Buddha told that he had
> been born in a deva 
> realm.

If this is the sutta you referred to, he was reborn
once in one of the Brahma Viharas (I think!).  I love
this sutta, as one of those that start so
down-to-earth.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html

> (I hope someone have come across this story
> too) Besides, I 
> have read an article of an Ajahn that told a monk
> practise only those 
> precepts that he has no doubt and clear.  

There's a challenge!
 
> > > We can live life as a layperson and not make any
> akusala kamma-
> patha (completed bad action). 
> > 
> > Neat trick!  For a monk OR a layperson...
> 
> I think the point is not being a layperson or monk,
> but of self-
> awareness

Excellent!  But I assume you mean awareness of what
arises at the dvaras at this moment--I know that you
know these are not self...
 
> > > However
> > > one who lives the life of a monk correctly, and
> that
> > > is only
> > > possible with good understanding, 
> > 
> > An important point...
> > 
> > > is very protected.
> > > They are
> > > guarding the 6 sense doors. They see danger in
> the
> > > slightest
> > > fault. Of course this is also possible for the
> > > layman; it is how
> > > we should live. 
> 
> 100% agree ^^~ [Me too!]
>  
> > You're right, but MUCH more difficult, living in
> the world.  The 
> influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR more
> pervasive.
> 
> You will not afraid of these if you have enough
> confidence in you and 
> the dhamma you've insighted.

An extremely important point, and one I'm closely
examining thanks to all of you and your comments.
 
> > > I agree. As i said to sarah and you off list I
> think you could  
> do a LOT of good as a monk. Please think of me as a
> supporter for 
> requisites if you do take the robes. 
> 
> >Thanks again for your encouragement.  I think this
> would be great, 
> for both of us...
> 
> I wish you with full hearted. Sadhu!

Thank you Dasoka.  Your sadhu (to the cetana) is
justified if these motives are kusala.  I'm honestly
not sure.  Much to examine, and very closely.

He pai te koorero!

Mike 


 
2310 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 9:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Excellent, Robert, thanks!

Here's a link to the text:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-63.html

Allow me to repeat that, I think the advantage is
protection from present (new) akusala kamma--NOT
greater opportunity for insight.

Mike

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Dear dasoka,
> Thanks for your useful and kind remarks and welcome
> to the
> discussion. I found it especially helpful where you
> wrote:
> 
> ---  wrote: 
> MIKE: > You're right, but MUCH more difficult,
> living in the
> world. 
> > The 
> > influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR
> more
> > pervasive.
> > 
> > DASOKA:You will not afraid of these if you have
> enough
> confidence in
> > you and 
> > the dhamma you've insighted.
> 
> I think this is difficult to comprehend but true. We
> know the
> laylife is one of dust and busyness but insight can
> develop at
> any time, even while we are busy. This is not to
> deny that the
> monks life is the superior one if lived with
> insight, but we
> should not feel that we are hindered by our life in
> the world.
> The quintessence of buddhism is not lifestyle but
> panna
> (wisdom).
> The Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.63
> Migajala Sutta
> Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on
> arrival, having
> bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was
> sitting there he
> said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A
> person
> living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent,
> lord, is one a
> person living alone, and to what extent is one a
> person living
> with a companion?" 
> "Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye --
> agreeable,
> pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire,
> enticing -- and
> a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them.
> As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them,
> delight arises. There being delight, he is
> impassioned. Being
> impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the
> fetter of
> delight is said to be a person living with a
> companion.
>  
> ......and a monk does not relish them, welcome them,
> or remain
> fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome
> them, or
> remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being
> no delight,
> he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is
> not
> fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of
> delight is said to
> be a person living alone. 
> 
> "A person living in this way -- even if he lives
> near a village,
> associating with monks & nuns, with male & female
> lay followers,
> with king & royal ministers, with sectarians & their
> disciples
> -- is still said to be living alone. A person living
> alone is
> said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is
> his
> companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he
> is said to
> be a person living alone." 
> Robert
> 



 
2311 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 10:59am
Subject: Re: message from a friend

 
  > > I remember 
> > that there was a layperson during the Buddha's time
> > renounced as a 
> > monk for one day and died immediately afterward.
> > When was asked where 
> > was him after the death, Buddha told that he had
> > been born in a deva 
> > realm.
> 
> If this is the sutta you referred to, he was reborn
> once in one of the Brahma Viharas (I think!).  I love
> this sutta, as one of those that start so
> down-to-earth.
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html
 

Dear Mike,

Thank you for the rapid references and links!  This is so great, 
anumodana,

Amara

 
2312 From:  
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:01am
Subject: Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Friends,

The distinction has been made here between dhamma and concept (and 
eloquently).  I'd be grateful for a little further clarification on 
this point.  

(a)  How is concept specifically different from vitakka?  

(b)  Is there a pali word for concept?

(c)  Doesn't a concept arise at the mind-door?  

(d)  Is it not taken as an object by citta?

(e)  If not, how is it cognized or perceived?

I expect that these questions might stimulate some very erudite 
abhidhamma explanations.  I have a feeling the answers will have a 
lot to do with the topic, already present, of papañca.  I look 
forward to reading and trying to comprehend them!  But, and maybe 
most importantly (for the present need), 

(f)  can someone please cite a clear, direct instruction on this      
topic from the sutta-pitaka? 

I think this would be incredibly valuable, not only for my own 
understanding but for the benefit of others new to abhidhamma and to 
this list.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

 
2313 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:21am
Subject: Re: Question?

 
  > Kia ora koutou,
> 
> I will begin letter writing to a family in Thailand.
> Could someone tell me how to appropriately address
> the family in the letter, ie. how to start and finish
> the letter, and maybe some everyday thai phrases.


Dear Jody,

Thai greetings both for meeting and parting would be 'sawad dee' 
litterally translated as good or auspicious time, (+'kha' for lady 
speakers or writers and +'krub' for gentlemen.)  For letters the 
endings the usage is 'duaie kwam nubthueh' (lit. = respectfully or 
with consideration).  As Mike will tell you, 'whang wa khun kong sabai 
dee' means I hope you are well, and in fact he might be able to teach 
you some other phrases, or you could post the ones you would like to 
learn about in a private mail to me or Khun O, or 'Rinriver' in this 
list, who would be happy to teach you, I am sure.

Looking forward to hearing from you off-list,

Amara

 
 
2314 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

It's interesting, isn't it, that he had such
INCREDIBLE good fortune, followed by such harsh
vipaka, then (after one rebirth), freedom.  No wonder
the arahats smile at the results of kamma...

Mike

--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> > > I remember 
> > > that there was a layperson during the Buddha's
> time
> > > renounced as a 
> > > monk for one day and died immediately afterward.
> > > When was asked where 
> > > was him after the death, Buddha told that he had
> > > been born in a deva 
> > > realm.
> > 
> > If this is the sutta you referred to, he was
> reborn
> > once in one of the Brahma Viharas (I think!).  I
> love
> > this sutta, as one of those that start so
> > down-to-earth.
> > 
> >
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html
>  
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> Thank you for the rapid references and links!  This
> is so great, 
> anumodana,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
2315 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:42am
Subject: Re: Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  > The distinction has been made here between dhamma and concept (and 
> eloquently).  I'd be grateful for a little further clarification on 
> this point.  
> 
> (a)  How is concept specifically different from vitakka?  


Dear Mike,
 
Vitakka is thinking, concept is non paramatthadhamma and therefore any 
distinction between the self and all other non paramatthadhamma 
aramana.


> (b)  Is there a pali word for concept?


I think 'pannati' would cover it.

 
> (c)  Doesn't a concept arise at the mind-door?  


Yes.

 
> (d)  Is it not taken as an object by citta?


Yes it could be, but the word 'take' here could be misleading, it 
either is or is not, according to conditions, not through any 
arrangement or volition.  Not by choice, you see?

 
> (e)  If not, how is it cognized or perceived?


Uniquely through the mind door: you think and remember former 
thoughts about the paramattha dhamma that appear without realizing 
that in fact only what appears through the different dvara is the 
reality of the moment, after which long trains of thought take over 
and lead to moments of kusala and akusala (mainly the latter) at 
each instant.  Only when one studies the aramana as it really is are 
we free from concepts and arive at the true characteristics of what 
appears and add to the knowledge of things as they really are.


> I expect that these questions might stimulate some very erudite 
> abhidhamma explanations.  I have a feeling the answers will have a 
> lot to do with the topic, already present, of papañca.  I look 
> forward to reading and trying to comprehend them!  But, and maybe 
> most importantly (for the present need), 
> 
> (f)  can someone please cite a clear, direct instruction on this    
  
> topic from the sutta-pitaka? 


I'm sure Robert could help here,

Thanks for your precise and penetrating questions, anumodana,

Amara

 
2316 From:  
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 4:20pm
Subject: Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear all,

I am a new and slow learner and know nothing much about any 
abhidhamma but I enjoy very much on all your postings. Thanks.

------------------------
Dear Robert,

>The quintessence of buddhism is not lifestyle but panna(wisdom).

I do agree what you mentioned above. But panna need a proper 
condition and environment such as a proper lifestyle to explore. A 
better and superior lifestyle can promote the arising of panna. I 
hope I am right.

----------------------------
Dear Mike,

Nice to meet you too. Actually this is not the sutta that I referred 
to. Anyway, it is another good story four us. I can't check up the 
reference of the sutta I refered at the moment and perhaps I can do 
it after new year.

-------------------------
Dear Amara,

I think you are asking for the reference of the precepts story and 
this is the link:
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha088.htm

 
2317 From:  
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear asoka,

u said --> "Dear all,

I am a new and slow learner and know nothing much about any
abhidhamma but I enjoy very much on all your postings. Thanks."

well, we all are slow.
we still have not done what we should have done.
'we' are still 'here' because we are slow.
so lets help each other.

:o)

rgds

 
2318 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 8:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  ---  wrote: > Dear Friends,
> a)  How is concept specifically different from vitakka?  

Vittaka is a paramattha dhamma. The usual translation is applied
thinking. Howeer it is not exactly the same as what we usually
meaqn by thinking. Even when we are in deep, dreamless sleep
vittaka arises. Nevertheless we can say it is or may be
predominant when we are thinking (in the conventional sense).
When we are thinking about some idea one of the dhammas that is
arsing and passing away during those moments is vittaka. If sati
of satipatthana takes vittaka as an object, or any other dhamma,
then the concept will disappear for the moments that this is
happening. This is because sati, of this type, only takes
paramattha dhamma for object.
> 
> (b)  Is there a pali word for concept?

Pannatti is the pali for concept. As Acharn Sujin explains in
'Realities and concepts' there are different types of concept.
Such words as dosa, lobha, metta, colour, hatred, sound are
concepts that designate paramattha dhammas, they are vijjamana
pannatti. Words such as person, animal, computer, Robert, Mike
do not refer to paramattha dhammas and are called avijjamana
pannati.
> 
> (c)  Doesn't a concept arise at the mind-door? 
Concepts are dhammarammana(mental object) and they appear at the
mind-door. The mind-door has many different objects including
citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana which are all paramattha
dhamma. It also has concept as an object.
> 
> (d)  Is it not taken as an object by citta?
Yes but not in the same way that paramattha dhammas are taken as
object. How could it as it is not real. The cittas and cetasikas
are arising and passing away at great speed and forming up
concepts but these concepts have no existence, although they
give the illusion of existence. It is so hard to talk about this
-- we are using concepts to discuus it-- and yet this is all
happening right now. Can we see it? By the development of
satipatthana the difference between concept and paramattha
dhamma must gradually becomes clearer. 
Now you are reading this so it might be worthwhile analysing
what is actually happening. There is visible object, the
different colours making up the computer screen. The colours are
real (but arising and passing away rapidly) the computer screen
is not real, however the various rupas that make up the screen
are real,(and arising and passing away ceaselessly). There is
cakkhuvinnana, seeing consciousness which is real (and
ephemeral) which arises due to the contact of the eyebase (real,
conditioned by kamma done in the past, evanescent). Then there
are processes of citta which experience the same object and then
there are mind-door processes which think about what was seen
and so concepts are formed up. Yet these concepts do not
actually exist. There must be this process occuring, no one can
stop it occuring. If it didn't occur we would be utterly vacuos,
know nothing at all, much less than a new born baby. Thus it is
the most natural thing that concepts arise. 
Unfortunately, though, throughout samasara we have given these
concepts special staus that they don't deserve, namely we think
they exist. This mistaken notion means that we will do all sorts
of evil to protect these illusionary figments such as self. When
we see that concepts are simply concept, and that even
parammattha dhammas are so temporary, would we still get so
upset when we are critisised? Would we hate the man who steals
our wife once we know that both are only idea? I think we would
not kill, steal, lie or cheat over distintergrating colours,
sounds or tastes. We can only get angry because of the distorted
vision that can't fully penetrate these matters. Thus papanaca
and mannati are working.
> 

> 
> (f)  can someone please cite a clear, direct instruction on
> this      
> topic from the sutta-pitaka? 


The Buddha said that the all includes the 6 doors and there
objects and the sense bases. There are many suttas classifying
dhammas in different ways, the ayatanas, the khandas, the
dhatus, so that they can be understood, so that concept is not
mistaken for paramattha dhamma. 
The satipatthana sutta elucidates different dhammas that can be
insighted. Anger is one of the objects listed in the
satipatthana sutta- it should be understood. When we are angry
do we see that we are angry with an illusion? Do we understand
that what is really happening is simply cittas arising and
passing away that are roooted in dosa. By studying our "lives",
which are only these brief moments of anger and lust and doubt
and fear and pleasure and pain, and seeing, hearing, tasting,
touching, by applying the satipatthana sutta, we are beginning
to separate paramattha dhamma from concept.

robert

> 


 
2319 From: Bruce   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  hello group members

i was going to wait until i had read all the posts online before
introducing myself and joining in any discussions, but this thread seems to
be addressing some points i had brought up in a post to the d-list, which
post robert read and answered; he then graciously introduced me to *this*
list...

my original post to the d-list asked about mental images and mental sounds,
which can be conjured at will or may appear unasked for....eg: we can
decide to picture, mentally, a flower or a face or an image of the Buddha,
or one may just pop into the mind seemingly at random; we can imagine
conversations that have not taken place or may suddenly, vividly "hear"
music we once heard in the past....what i wanted to know is: are these
objects rupa? they are phenomena that do not, cannot know; and as objects
they are knowable....or they at least seem to be knowable objects....

after reading the last several posts on this topic, i think now that these
mental phenomena can be categorized simply as "concept": pannati....please
correct me if i'm wrong....example: the chrysanthemum on my altar right now
is rupa *only* as i look at it and its colors and shapes impinge on the
eye-dvara and concurrently visual consciousness arises, ie it is a
paramattha dhamma....but the chrysanthemums you may well be imagining as
you read this are not rupa, are not a paramattha dhamma: they are a
concept....the image of a chrysanthemum i can conjure up when i close my
eyes, or that may come unasked for in the middle of a sitting is not rupa,
it is a concept, panatti; i am proliferating this concept by considering
it, by naming it, by imagining it a white or orange chysanthemum or making
it into several chrysanthemums...and all this of course is akusala....

mental manifestations of any of the 5 bodily senses that appear in the mind
are not the same as those that appear at the 5 sense-doors....they are
imagined sensory experiences...what is impinging on the mind-door when i
imagine a chrysanthemum is only the *idea* of a chrysanthemum, a
concept....and concepts, whether they are visual or auditory or olfactory
are not rupa, are not paramattha dhammas.....is this correct?

so now what i would like to ask is this: is pannati a kind of citta, or is
it something else....? it couldn't be citta because it is not a paramattha
dhamma, right?...what is it composed of, and how can it be the object of
attention?  what exactly are these ideas/fabrications objects *of*, what
knows them? is it sanna? can it be sati?

thanks in advance for enduring my concept-proliferation, and please forgive
my lack of knowledge in these matters...i've just recently discovered ajahn
sujin's works on the web and am amazed at her capacity to bring about
understanding: i read her lectures and think "yes! exactly!"  and feel that
this must be a tiny inkling of what it may have been like to listen to the
Buddha....of course that doesn't mean i truly *know* what she's discussing;
panna is indeed a long way off...i have a lot of catching up to do in terms
of pali and scriptural study before i'll feel comfortable doing more than
just asking questions and checking to see if my conceptual undertstanding
is correct....

mettacittena
bruce

 
2320 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 10:38pm
Subject: Re: message from a friend

 
  > I think you are asking for the reference of the precepts story and 
> this is the link:
> http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha088.htm


Dear Dasoka, 

Thank you for the link, actually I was referring to the story about 
the bhikkhu who disrobed, I couldn't think of a sutta about that, and 
would appreciate the reference,

Thanks again,

Amara

 
2321 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:04pm
Subject: Re: Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  > i've just recently discovered ajahn
> sujin's works on the web and am amazed at her capacity to bring 
about
> understanding: i read her lectures and think "yes! exactly!"  and 
feel that
> this must be a tiny inkling of what it may have been like to listen 
to the
> Buddha....of course that doesn't mean i truly *know* what she's 
discussing;
> panna is indeed a long way off...i have a lot of catching up to do 
in terms
> of pali and scriptural study before i'll feel comfortable doing more 
than
> just asking questions and checking to see if my conceptual 
undertstanding
> is correct....


Hi and welcome, Bruce,

I almost envy the feeling of discovering her teachings for the first 
time, and the more one reads the more one appreciates the Buddha's 
wisdom and compassion, I think.  I was just about to sign off for 
three more days away from the list when I caught your message, I look 
forward to reading all the discussions that ensue, 

Anumodana in your study,

Amara

 
2322 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: message from a friend

 
  > > I think you are asking for the reference of the precepts
> story and 
> > this is the link:
> > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha088.htm
> 
> Dear dasoka,
thanks for the link. Some very good reflections there about the
vinaya.
Robert 


 
2323 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Bruce,
Thanks for joining up Bruce and your first letter is a good one.

--- Bruce  wrote: > hello group
members
> my original post to the d-list asked about mental images and
> mental sounds,
> which can be conjured at will or may appear unasked for....eg:
> we can
> decide to picture, mentally, a flower or a face or an image of
> the Buddha,
> or one may just pop into the mind seemingly at random; we can
> imagine
> conversations that have not taken place or may suddenly,
> vividly "hear"
> music we once heard in the past....what i wanted to know is:
> are these
> objects rupa? 
-----------
Not rupa, as you note later.
-----------
they are phenomena that do not, cannot know; and
> as objects
> they are knowable....or they at least seem to be knowable
> objects.... 
> after reading the last several posts on this topic, i think
> now that these
> mental phenomena can be categorized simply as "concept":
> pannati....
---------------
Yes, these examples are all pannati.
--------------
please
> correct me if i'm wrong....example: the chrysanthemum on my
> altar right now
> is rupa *only* as i look at it and its colors and shapes
> impinge on the
> eye-dvara and concurrently visual consciousness arises, ie it
> is a
> paramattha dhamma..but the chrysanthemums you may well be
> imagining as
> you read this are not rupa, are not a paramattha dhamma: they
> are a
> concept....the image of a chrysanthemum i can conjure up when
> i close my
> eyes, or that may come unasked for in the middle of a sitting
> is not rupa,
> it is a concept, panatti; i am proliferating this concept by
> considering
> it, by naming it, by imagining it a white or orange
> chysanthemum or making
> it into several chrysanthemums...and all this of course is
> akusala....
---------------------------------

This is where we need to dissect further.
When you were looking at the crysanthenum the paramattha dhammas
(fundamental phenomena, realities) were:
1. Different colours (vanayatana)
2. cakkhupasada (the special sensitive matter that is in the
center of the eye). This type of matter is conditioned by kamma
only and does not exist in a dead person.
3. Cakkhuvinnana, seeing consciousness. This type of citta can
only experience visible object, colours. It actually doesn't
even experience shape, the idea of shape comes in later
mind-door processes that happen immediately after the seeing.
There was never any chrysanthenum as such. The reason, however,
that we know the difference between, say an orchid and a
crysanthenum is that there are different  rupas that make up
each object. These rupas are paramattha dhammas but crysanthenum
is not. Odour is paramattha and there are many different odours
the odour of crysanthenum is not the same as  orchid odour, so
too the colours (and tastes) are varied. Because of this we are
able to make distinctions and, quite naturally concepts are
formed based on these distinctions. This occurs even at a
preverbal level, animals know the diference between a flower
they can eat and one that they can't.
In the atthakattha they call pannati of this type, the shadows
of dhammas. We, until dhamma is understood, live our many lives
chasing shadows.



--------------------------------
> mental manifestations of any of the 5 bodily senses that
> appear in the mind
> are not the same as those that appear at the 5
> sense-doors....they are
> imagined sensory experiences...what is impinging on the
> mind-door when i
> imagine a chrysanthemum is only the *idea* of a chrysanthemum,
> a
> concept....and concepts, whether they are visual or auditory
> or olfactory
> are not rupa, are not paramattha dhammas.....is this correct?
------------
Correct!
---------
> 
> so now what i would like to ask is this: is pannati a kind of
> citta, or is
> it something else....?
--------------------------
Not citta, not cetasika, not rupa, and not nibbana. These are
the 4 types of parammatha dhammas, there are no others. Anything
else is simply concept. The atthakattha also classifies concepts
in different ways, as you will see in Realities and Concepts.
----------------------
 it couldn't be citta because it is not
> a paramattha
> dhamma, right?...what is it composed of, and how can it be the
> object of
> attention?  what exactly are these ideas/fabrications objects
> *of*, what
> knows them? is it sanna? can it be sati?
---------------------
Sanna and sati are cetasika, paramattha dhamma. At the same time
there is thinking of a concept there is also sanna (and
sometimes sati but not of the level of satipatthana). There is
also citta and many other cetasikas. These paramattha dhammas
are all actually happening but they are changing, arising and
passing away rapidly.
The concept is not real and yet concepts do condition dhammas in
certain ways. When we hear correct Dhamma, for instance, the
sound is paramattha dhamma, the hearing is kusala vipaka , the
result of wholesome kamma (a paramattha dhamma). While listening
concepts are formed up that support kusala citta. And kusala
citta is co-nascent paccaya with certain concepts. Complex
stuff.
------------------------> 
> thanks in advance for enduring my concept-proliferation, 
------------------------
These type of concepts are necessary to understand Dhamma. They
point us towards paramattha dhammas. They are most helpful for
all of us.

If we want to get to see this deeply we know that there is only
one way, by satipatthana. Satipatthana is not the same as
samattha bhavana, the development of calm. Although it can go
together with samattha bhavana it is different. Satipatthana
dissects our world of people, children, cars, computers into its
actual components. We come out of the cave of shadows and see
what is really there, and what there is, according to the
Buddha, is simply  a flux of fundamental phenomena conditioned
by many causes and in turn conditioning other phenomena.
 
I think we do not need to go anywhere or take a special posture
or concentrate to see this. If we want to do these things, fine,
but we also need to comprehend all the different dhammas that
arise in our life constantly. If we are averse to seeing dhammas
such as greed or hate or fear or colour then we will not
understand them as they are. When we have great agitation can we
see the underlying dhammas that are arising and how they are
conditioned by certain concepts- if we can we  will learn much.
Likewise if we do meditation and we think we have to stop doing
that and stand up and walk around before we can comprehend then
we won't come to understand the dhammas that arise at that time.
I think there is no time or place, provided we are awake, when
we can say "no, this is not the right time for understanding". I
don't know if anyone has an example of such a time?
On the other hand we can't have sati often because it is
sankhara dhamma, it is conditioned, anatta, not under anyone's
power.

I guess Kom might have some good ideas on these matters.
Robert





 
2324 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: message from a friend

 
  Dear Dasoka, Khun Amara et al.,

---  wrote:

> Actually this is not the sutta
> that I referred 
> to. Anyway, it is another good story four us. I
> can't check up the 
> reference of the sutta I refered at the moment and
> perhaps I can do 
> it after new year.

My apologies for the wrong sutta!  I wasn't reading
very carefully, was I...if anyone can remind me of any
more details or of the title, I'll try to find the
right one...mn



 
2325 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Wed Dec 13, 2000 0:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Mike,

You wrote:
<<(f)  can someone please cite a clear, direct instruction on this
topic from the sutta-pitaka?

I think this would be incredibly valuable, not only for my own
understanding but for the benefit of others new to abhidhamma and to
this list.>>

I did a search on 'pa~n~natti' and found an interesting sutta where this
word occurs a lot in relation to the 5 aggregates. It is the
Niruttipathasutta, SN XXII.62 (22.2.1.10). Niruttipatha, adhivacanapatha,
and pa~n~nattipatha are also found in the suttantika couplets of the
Dhammasangani. Pa~n~natti (in that form, by itself) occurs 5 times in each
of DN & MN, 12 times in SN (the sutta just mentioned), once in AN, & 70
times in KN.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2326 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 0:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Hi Bruce,

Welcome to the group.  I hope you will find many useful information
here in the group.  I am not answering all the questions in this email:
I am just adding to the conversation that is already in progress.
--- Bruce  wrote:
> example: the chrysanthemum on my altar
> right now
> is rupa *only* as i look at it and its colors and shapes impinge on
> the
> eye-dvara and concurrently visual consciousness arises, ie it is a
> paramattha dhamma....
Chrysanthemum is not paramatha dhamma at any time, not while we are
looking at it, not while we are not looking at it.  What we call
Chrysanthemum is just a collection of rupas that rise and fall away
extremely rapidly.  The rupa, such as vanna, the visible object, is
there regardless of whether or not there is a citta cognizing it.  The
sound of a tree falling in the forest where there is nobody to hear is
still there (very briefly).  Regardless of whether there is a citta to
cognize the rupa or not, it is insignificant and is not worth being
attached to.

> eyes, or that may come unasked for in the middle of a sitting is not
> rupa,
Doesn't this remind us of the anatta characteristic of all sankhara
dhammsa (in this case, citta and cetasikas?)?  Regardless of whether or
not we like it or dislike it, a dhamma rises because of there are
conditions for it to rise.  It doesn't rise because the conditions are
not all there.   Satipatthana is also sankhara dhamma: it doesn't arise
if there are no conditions.

> mental manifestations of any of the 5 bodily senses that appear in
> the mind
> are not the same as those that appear at the 5 sense-doors....they
> are
> imagined sensory experiences...what is impinging on the mind-door
> when i
> imagine a chrysanthemum is only the *idea* of a chrysanthemum, a
> concept....and concepts, whether they are visual or auditory or
> olfactory
> are not rupa, are not paramattha dhammas.....is this correct?
Imagining the 5 sensory experiences (or any other objects) would
certainly fall in the category of concepts.  However, the mano-dhavara
cittas experience all poramatha dhammas (citta, cetasikas, rupa, and
nibhanna) and pannati.  The vanna experienced through the eye-dvara
will also be experienced through the mano-dvara.  This happens very
rapidly.  I was told that you can't tell the differences, even when
satipatthana is rising, that if the characteristics of poramatha dhamma
is appearing through the 5-sense door, or through the mano-dvara.




 
2327 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 0:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Robert,

> I think there is no time or place, provided we are awake, when
> we can say "no, this is not the right time for understanding". I
> don't know if anyone has an example of such a time?

Is it not possible for Satipatthana to arise cognizing the
chracteristics of the bhavanga citta (the sleeping citta)?  Even though
then you won't be technically sleeping while satipathana arises... 
Satipatthana can certainly arises cognizing the characteristics of
dreaming cittas (mano-dvara, again, technically not sleeping).

kom



 
2328 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 7:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  dear kom,
Right. Satipatthana can arise intermitantly during light sleep.
Sometimes while dreaming we are thinking about Dhamma with
kusala citta; so other levels of kusala are also possible.  But
in deep sleep we are aware of nothing. Immediately before
falling into deep sleep it is theoretically possible.
Robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Robert,
> 
> > I think there is no time or place, provided we are awake,
> when
> > we can say "no, this is not the right time for
> understanding". I
> > don't know if anyone has an example of such a time?
> 
> Is it not possible for Satipatthana to arise cognizing the
> chracteristics of the bhavanga citta (the sleeping citta)? 
> Even though
> then you won't be technically sleeping while satipathana
> arises... 
> Satipatthana can certainly arises cognizing the
> characteristics of
> dreaming cittas (mano-dvara, again, technically not sleeping).
> 
> kom
> 
> 



 
 
2329 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 9:29am
Subject: Re: Fonts for Pali

 
  Dear Pinna Lee,

It's been a while since you posted this, but I hope this might still 
do you some good--courtesy of our friend, Michael Olds:

http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/weft00.htm?fna
me=%20

Michael's done quite a nice little font of his own, so I hope you'll 
find this useful.

Anumodana, MO,

mn
---  "Indorf,Pinna Lee" wrote:
> Dear DSSFB Group,
> I'm getting set to retype Nina van Gorkom's letters from about 1975 
onward
> for placement on the web (and perhaps eventually other forms of
> distribution) with her approval and permission. I would like to use 
a font
> that will show the diacritical marks for Pali words on the web.  
> For my coursework (on Hindu-Buddhist architecture) which went on 
the web,
> the I.T. unit here at NUS (Singapore) used a program 'embedded 
fonts' which
> was able to display the fonts on I.Explorer 5. The font I used was 
one I
> created with Fontographer (for mac and pc) which I can send to 
Amara (or
> others who need such a font) and maybe it will work in the same way 
our NUS
> web works, but only through Explorer 5. I also have something called
> 'Dtimes' which works on mac (but I don't know if it is around for 
pc). The
> Word font Amara uses (Tahoma) for her own work is not available on 
mac. 
> Does anyone have suggestions for solving this problem?
> Pinna
> p.s. I much appreciate the lively discussions, especially on 
abhidhamma, and
> grapbling with 'reality.'
> 
> > 

 
2330 From: Bruce   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 1:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  hi kom

thanks very much for your reply; just one question....

At 08:17 2000/12/13 -0800, you wrote:

> Chrysanthemum is not paramatha dhamma at any time, not while we are
> looking at it, not while we are not looking at it.  What we call
> Chrysanthemum is just a collection of rupas that rise and fall away
> extremely rapidly.  The rupa, such as vanna, the visible object, is
> there regardless of whether or not there is a citta cognizing it.  

of course "chrysanthemum" is just pannatti, but the collection of rapidly
arising and falling away rupas (which compose what we conceptualize as/name
"chrysanthemum") is paramattha dhamma, correct?


> Imagining the 5 sensory experiences (or any other objects) would
> certainly fall in the category of concepts.  However, the mano-dhavara
> cittas experience all poramatha dhammas (citta, cetasikas, rupa, and
> nibhanna) and pannati.  The vanna experienced through the eye-dvara
> will also be experienced through the mano-dvara.  This happens very
> rapidly.  I was told that you can't tell the differences, even when
> satipatthana is rising, that if the characteristics of poramatha dhamma
> is appearing through the 5-sense door, or through the mano-dvara.

thanks for this explanation....this makes me wonder: if one can't
distinguish the difference between characteristics of paramattha dhamma
that arise (*seemingly* simultaneously) at the 5 sense doors and the mind
door) then how is it possible to differentiate pannatti, which are only
experienced by mano-dvara cittas, from rupa, which are experienced through
5-sense dvaras *and* mano-dvara?


thanks in advance for your responses...

mettacittena
bruce

 
2331 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 3:00pm
Subject: catching up - slowly!

 
  hi everyone,

Well, we're back in Hong Kong and trying to catch up
with all the excellent posts in between busy work
schedules for us both and visits to doctors in my case
as I've been rather sick with a nasty cough....so a
little slower than usual at getting back into the
'swing'.

Firstly a big welcome to newcomers. Bruce, I was very
impressed with your first post. Understanding the
defference between concepts and realities is really
the key and the only way to understand realities as
anatta.
Welcome too to Dasoka. I'm going to be making more
comments on the theme of the monk's way of life,
following up Mike's points, SOON! We had a long
discussion on this theme on our last day in Bkk with
Nina and K.Sujin. Welcome to any other newcomers I've
neglected to mention too!

Mike & Shin asked about the chatroom facility. As far
as I know, this doesn't need the moderator to do
anything. in otherwords, I believe you (any anyone
else interested) can just go ahead! If I'm wrong and
we need to do anything first, p'haps you'll let us
know. With all the time differences and work
commitments, it can be hard to coordinate and for
myself I prefer not to be tied to times for the list,
but I think it's fine for those who can arrange it.

As Jaran & O have mentioned, the trip to Cambodia was
excellent in many regards. I was the only non-Thai
speaking member of the group (oh, also Lodevick, Nina
VG's husband) and A.Sujin kindly arranged plenty of
English discussions both there and in Bangkok at
either end. These have all been recorded by the
Foundation (Dhamma Study Group Centre) and we
(Jonothan & I) have left funds so that if anyone from
the list wishes to have any copies made (and posted)
of these or any other tapes or of any of Nina's books
at the Centre, this should be possible soon. We're
just finalising arrangements and I'll post the details
of what you should do. This will be for samll
individual orders rather than for large orders.

Nina VG was very enthusiastic about this list and was
recommending it to everyone. She herself plans to join
once she is 'hooked up' in the New Year...

Will get back to some of the other issues when i have
time and am not too 'drugged out' from the Chinese
medicine I'm taking!

Best wishes,
Sarah






 
2332 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 3:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Bruce,

--- Bruce  wrote:
> but the collection of
> rapidly
> arising and falling away rupas (which compose what we conceptualize
> as/name
> "chrysanthemum") is paramattha dhamma, correct?
Yes, an "object" arising from Utu as the samuthana comprises of many
kalapas (the smallest collection of rupas), each kalapa comprises of 12
paramatha dhammas including pattawee (earth), apo (water), dejo (fire),
vayo (wind), vanna (color), rassa (taste), ??? (smell), ocha
(nutrition), and 4 lakkhana rupas.   They are all paramatha dhammas.

> if one can't
> distinguish the difference between characteristics of paramattha
> dhamma
> that arise (*seemingly* simultaneously) at the 5 sense doors and the
> mind
> door) then how is it possible to differentiate pannatti, which are
> only
> experienced by mano-dvara cittas, from rupa, which are experienced
> through
> 5-sense dvaras *and* mano-dvara?
Thanks for asking this very fundamental (and very hard) question.  I
will attempt to give you an answer, and throw in another question. 
Pannatti doesn't really exist, i.e., it has no poramatha
characteristics that can be experienced.  It doesn't have any of the
three common paramatha characteristics: anicca, dukha, anatta.  It
doesn't have any specific characeristics, unlike all the poramatha
dhammas.  

One crude way to explain this is, take anger for example, regardless of
who you are (nationality, race, origins, even animal), anger exists for
all.  Now take some concept that is not paramatha, say freedom: now
this concept is not universally understood (even in the worldly way). 
Why?  Because it doesn't really exist: it has no paramatha
characteristics.

Another example would be a musical instrument.  When you look at an
unfamiliar musical instrument, do you even know that it is a musical
instrument?  However, you certainly can know that you see an object. 
Again, regardless of who you are (baby, poor-sighted person, insane
person), the cita sees this aramana (vanna) which is paramatha.

There are more complications: there are dhammas that we call paramatha
that don't have their own characteristics.  Specifically, they are the
10 anibbhana rupa (lakhana rupa 4, vikara rupa 3, vinyatti 2, paricheta
1).  They can be known because they change the characteristics of the
rupas they arise with, but they by themselves neither have the 3 common
characteristics (???), nor the specific characteristics (???).

Overall, though, paramatha dhammas are real: they have characteristics
that can be experienced.  Pannati doesn't.  Anibbhana rupas are not
suitable for "studying" anyway.  There are poramatha dhammas that
cannot be understood (by some) because they don't appear to them.  The
ability to experience the dhammas depend on the accumulations.  On the
other hand, there are dhammas that seem to be experienced by all (take
the 14 akusala cetasikas, for example).  By learning about the
characteristics of the paramatha dhamma and by noticing the nama and
rupa that arise, I think one would gain more understanding why some
dhammas (with the evasnescent meaning) are paramatha and why some
aren't.

kom


 
2333 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 9:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear bruce,
Another good question, I think they don't come any deeper.
Khun sujin described the experience of vipassana. At those
moments the sense door and mindoor are known as they are. Now we
are experiencing colour and sound but the sense door is hidden.
During the minddoor processes when vipassana nana occur the
sense-door is revealed, at those moments there is the deep
understanding of the difference between rupa and nama. This is
nama-rupa paricchedda nana. She says that the theory is
completely true. This experience of vipassana is not, as some
think, just knowing in a vague way that rupa is rupa and nama is
nama. Vipassana actually distinguishes. It cannot be made to
happen; imagine how fast the processes are changing. Even when
we think we are feeling tyhe actual rupas in the body they have
long since passed away. But when vipassana arises, which
includes the cetasikas of panna(wisdom) sati, concentration and
other factors of the eightfold path panna supported by the other
factors is able to distinguish. So completely anatta.
After that there is no doubt about nama and rupa but there has
to be more development before there can be understanding of the
arising and passing away.
Now concept, nama, and rupa are mixed up and they remain this
way until vipassana occurs. Nevertheless, there is some
untangling taking place at every moment of satipatthana, every
time that sati and panna take a paramattha dhamma as object. The
difference between concept and paramattha dhamma does become
clearer; but not clear until vipassana.
When will vipassana happen? When the conditions are fulfilled,
this life or future lives. When it is the right time it will
occur even if we don't want it. We might be surprised. I think
it is not something to wish for so much- it means one will see,
really see, that there is no one. Not only no friends or 
relatives, there is not even us. 
How can we have faith that this is the right way if we have to
wait, maybe until next life, before true vipassana occurs to
make it clear? I think a little understanding of the moment goes
a long way. It is like being at the bottom of the ocean looking
up at the light. It is hazy and yet we know that as we get
closer to the surface the light becomes brighter. 
Robert
--- Bruce  wrote: > hi kom
> 
> thanks very much for your reply; just one question....
> 
> At 08:17 2000/12/13 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> > Chrysanthemum is not paramatha dhamma at any time, not while
> we are
> > looking at it, not while we are not looking at it.  What we
> call
> > Chrysanthemum is just a collection of rupas that rise and
> fall away
> > extremely rapidly.  The rupa, such as vanna, the visible
> object, is
> > there regardless of whether or not there is a citta
> cognizing it.  
> 
> of course "chrysanthemum" is just pannatti, but the collection
> of rapidly
> arising and falling away rupas (which compose what we
> conceptualize as/name
> "chrysanthemum") is paramattha dhamma, correct?
> 
> 
> > Imagining the 5 sensory experiences (or any other objects)
> would
> > certainly fall in the category of concepts.  However, the
> mano-dhavara
> > cittas experience all poramatha dhammas (citta, cetasikas,
> rupa, and
> > nibhanna) and pannati.  The vanna experienced through the
> eye-dvara
> > will also be experienced through the mano-dvara.  This
> happens very
> > rapidly.  I was told that you can't tell the differences,
> even when
> > satipatthana is rising, that if the characteristics of
> poramatha dhamma
> > is appearing through the 5-sense door, or through the
> mano-dvara.
> 
> thanks for this explanation....this makes me wonder: if one
> can't
> distinguish the difference between characteristics of
> paramattha dhamma
> that arise (*seemingly* simultaneously) at the 5 sense doors
> and the mind
> door) then how is it possible to differentiate pannatti, which
> are only
> experienced by mano-dvara cittas, from rupa, which are
> experienced through
> 5-sense dvaras *and* mano-dvara?
> 
> 
> thanks in advance for your responses...
> 
> mettacittena
> bruce
> 
> 



 
2334 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 9:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Jim,
thanks for the references. I looked up the nirutti-patha sutta
(Mode of reckoning) which explains that we can talk about  past,
present and future dhammas (the khandas).
Robert
--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear Mike,
> 
> You wrote:
> <<(f)  can someone please cite a clear, direct instruction on
> this
> topic from the sutta-pitaka?
> 
> I think this would be incredibly valuable, not only for my own
> understanding but for the benefit of others new to abhidhamma
> and to
> this list.>>
> 
> I did a search on 'pa~n~natti' and found an interesting sutta
> where this
> word occurs a lot in relation to the 5 aggregates. It is the
> Niruttipathasutta, SN XXII.62 (22.2.1.10). Niruttipatha,
> adhivacanapatha,
> and pa~n~nattipatha are also found in the suttantika couplets
> of the
> Dhammasangani. Pa~n~natti (in that form, by itself) occurs 5
> times in each
> of DN & MN, 12 times in SN (the sutta just mentioned), once in
> AN, & 70
> times in KN.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.
> 



 
2335 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 9:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear  Bruce, Kom et al.,

I've pretty much stayed out of this since asking my
original question, partly because of time restraints
and partly because most of the exchange has been
somewhat over my head.

Bruce, all of your posts have gone straight to the
heart of my questions, but with greater clarity and
precision than I could have managed.  I think we're on
the same track, but you're running some way ahead.  

Kom, your responses have been so well-informed and
detailed that I know they'll be of great help--once
I've got much better grounded in the theory and
terminology of cittas and cetasikas.  This will be a
while...!

Khun Amara, Robert, and Jim, thanks also for your
wonderful replies.  I'll respond to these individually
as time permits.

I just want to respond to a couple of points in this
post briefly:

--- Bruce  wrote:

hi kom 

thanks very much for your reply; just one question....

At 08:17 2000/12/13 -0800, you wrote:

> I was told that you can't tell the
> differences, even when
> > satipatthana is rising, that if the
> characteristics of poramatha dhamma
> > is appearing through the 5-sense door, or through
> the mano-dvara.
> 
> thanks for this explanation....this makes me wonder:
> if one can't
> distinguish the difference between characteristics
> of paramattha dhamma
> that arise (*seemingly* simultaneously) at the 5
> sense doors and the mind
> door) then how is it possible to differentiate
> pannatti, which are only
> experienced by mano-dvara cittas, from rupa, which
> are experienced through
> 5-sense dvaras *and* mano-dvara?

As usual, Bruce, you're anticipating and articulating
my questions for me.  A possible answer occurred to me
regarding this persistent problem of the brevity of
all of these moments.  It seems to me that this
differentiation is only possible because sati and
paññá arise and subside just as rapidly--and that the
conceptual understanding of these maybe only arises
with retrospection of moments informed by many
arisings and subsidings of sati an paññá.  If this is
true (maybe even if it isn't), then the desire for
insight and the aversion to the lack of it are (a)
painful (this I know for sure) and (b) irrelevant, in
that sati and paññá will arise in spite of them when
the conditions exist for their arising.

I don't pretend to have managed even this conceptual
understanding yet and have no sense at all of 'being
able' to make the distinction above.  I'm really
grasping at this idea just as a sort of 'way out' of a
morass of papañca surrounding these issue.  I hope it
might have some merit and welcome any
corrections/refutations/elucidations.

It's early and I'm rambling, and I'm sure I've dragged
down the level of this exchange by several notches! 
Thanks for the occasion to 'think out loud' for a
minute.
 
Thanks again to you all for your help.

mike


 
2336 From: Bruce   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 9:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  to be honest, i didn't realize until after i had hit the send button that
the question i'd asked was simply: how do we distinguish pannatti from
paramattha dhamma?....i guess that's what it all comes down to, and
practice really does make perfect....

thanks, robert for a very illuminating post...and to be honest again,
everything seems completely different after having read it...but everything
always is completely different, again and again, isn't it...

anumodana, mettacittena
bruce






At 05:03 2000/12/14 -0800, you wrote:
> Dear bruce,
> Another good question, I think they don't come any deeper.
> Khun sujin described the experience of vipassana. At those
> moments the sense door and mindoor are known as they are. Now we
> are experiencing colour and sound but the sense door is hidden.
> During the minddoor processes when vipassana nana occur the
> sense-door is revealed, at those moments there is the deep
> understanding of the difference between rupa and nama. This is
> nama-rupa paricchedda nana. She says that the theory is
> completely true. This experience of vipassana is not, as some
> think, just knowing in a vague way that rupa is rupa and nama is
> nama. Vipassana actually distinguishes. It cannot be made to
> happen; imagine how fast the processes are changing. Even when
> we think we are feeling tyhe actual rupas in the body they have
> long since passed away. But when vipassana arises, which
> includes the cetasikas of panna(wisdom) sati, concentration and
> other factors of the eightfold path panna supported by the other
> factors is able to distinguish. So completely anatta.
> After that there is no doubt about nama and rupa but there has
> to be more development before there can be understanding of the
> arising and passing away.
> Now concept, nama, and rupa are mixed up and they remain this
> way until vipassana occurs. Nevertheless, there is some
> untangling taking place at every moment of satipatthana, every
> time that sati and panna take a paramattha dhamma as object. The
> difference between concept and paramattha dhamma does become
> clearer; but not clear until vipassana.
> When will vipassana happen? When the conditions are fulfilled,
> this life or future lives. When it is the right time it will
> occur even if we don't want it. We might be surprised. I think
> it is not something to wish for so much- it means one will see,
> really see, that there is no one. Not only no friends or 
> relatives, there is not even us. 
> How can we have faith that this is the right way if we have to
> wait, maybe until next life, before true vipassana occurs to
> make it clear? I think a little understanding of the moment goes
> a long way. It is like being at the bottom of the ocean looking
> up at the light. It is hazy and yet we know that as we get
> closer to the surface the light becomes brighter. 
> Robert
> --- Bruce  wrote: > hi kom
> > 
> > thanks very much for your reply; just one question....
> > 
> > At 08:17 2000/12/13 -0800, you wrote:
> > 
> > > Chrysanthemum is not paramatha dhamma at any time, not while
> > we are
> > > looking at it, not while we are not looking at it.  What we
> > call
> > > Chrysanthemum is just a collection of rupas that rise and
> > fall away
> > > extremely rapidly.  The rupa, such as vanna, the visible
> > object, is
> > > there regardless of whether or not there is a citta
> > cognizing it.  
> > 
> > of course "chrysanthemum" is just pannatti, but the collection
> > of rapidly
> > arising and falling away rupas (which compose what we
> > conceptualize as/name
> > "chrysanthemum") is paramattha dhamma, correct?
> > 
> > 
> > > Imagining the 5 sensory experiences (or any other objects)
> > would
> > > certainly fall in the category of concepts.  However, the
> > mano-dhavara
> > > cittas experience all poramatha dhammas (citta, cetasikas,
> > rupa, and
> > > nibhanna) and pannati.  The vanna experienced through the
> > eye-dvara
> > > will also be experienced through the mano-dvara.  This
> > happens very
> > > rapidly.  I was told that you can't tell the differences,
> > even when
> > > satipatthana is rising, that if the characteristics of
> > poramatha dhamma
> > > is appearing through the 5-sense door, or through the
> > mano-dvara.
> > 
> > thanks for this explanation....this makes me wonder: if one
> > can't
> > distinguish the difference between characteristics of
> > paramattha dhamma
> > that arise (*seemingly* simultaneously) at the 5 sense doors
> > and the mind
> > door) then how is it possible to differentiate pannatti, which
> > are only
> > experienced by mano-dvara cittas, from rupa, which are
> > experienced through
> > 5-sense dvaras *and* mano-dvara?
> > 
> > 
> > thanks in advance for your responses...
> > 
> > mettacittena
> > bruce
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
>

 
2337 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 9:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  --- Bruce  wrote:
> to be honest, i didn't realize until after i had hit
> the send button that
> the question i'd asked was simply: how do we
> distinguish pannatti from
> paramattha dhamma?

Again the heart of my question too, Bruce--though,
also, what's the real difference (though I know this
is a matter of record)?  Would another way of saying
this that paramattha dhammas are all satipatthana and
paññati isn't?  If so, does this mean that even crude
understanding can't really arise from reflection on
paññati?  Or rather, that neither pañña nor sati can
arise with paññati?

Sorry if this is getting circular or repetitive, or if
these questions are too elementary.

....i guess that's what it all
> comes down to, and
> practice really does make perfect....

Here's hoping...mike


 
2338 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 10:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> --- Bruce  wrote:
> is a matter of record)?  Would another way of saying
> this that paramattha dhammas are all satipatthana and
> paññati isn't?  
Satipatthana has at least 3 meanings:
1) Aramana of sati (of Satipatthana citta)
2) Satipatthana citta
3) The path that the Buddha and Ariyas disciple have walked.
I believe you are referring to meaning 1), and the answer is yes, only
poramatha dhammas can be an object of satipatthana.

> If so, does this mean that even crude
> understanding can't really arise from reflection on
> paññati?  Or rather, that neither pañña nor sati can
> arise with paññati?
There are different levels of panna.  Panna at the satipatthana level
is different from the panna at other levels: it knows the paramatha
dhamma as it is, and it must grow in order for the maggha to be
reached.  However, panna may arise for any kind of kusala citta (dana,
sila, samatha and vipassana bhawana, regardless if the citta's aramana
is paramatha dhamma or not.  When you are reading and understanding
dhammas (the correct dhamma, of course), at the pannati level, another
level of panna is arising.  When you are giving dana, having some vague
sense that giving is good, there is another level of panna rising. 
It's possible to develop other levels of panna without listening to
Buddha: it is not with Satipatthana.

kom


 
2339 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 10:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear mike,
These make a fine field of inquiry. Sati of the type that is
satipatthana can only take a paramatthaa dhamma for object,
never a concept. However, we can focus, for instance, on
paramattha dhammas and experience them but this is not
necessarily satipatthana. Ususally it will be simply citta and
sanna but not satipatthana. There are still concepts, pannati
cvoming in, there is still a subtle idea of control and self and
'thing'but we may not be aware of this.

There are other types of panna (wisdom) that can arise even at
the moments when the object is pannati, concept. These are also
useful, they accumulate, and assist the arising of satipatthana
later. At this moment there might be no awareness of a
paramattha dhamma but if there is understanding of this letter,
which is about Dhamma, then there are moments of maha-kusala
citta nana-sampayuttam (great wholesome consciousness associated
with knowledge). There is a huge range of levels of this type of
citta but even at the level of intellectual comprehension it is
accumulating, it brings benefits.
Robert
 --- "m. nease"  wrote: > --- Bruce <> 
> Again the heart of my question too, Bruce--though,
> also, what's the real difference (though I know this
> is a matter of record)?  Would another way of saying
> this that paramattha dhammas are all satipatthana and
> paññati isn't?  If so, does this mean that even crude
> understanding can't really arise from reflection on
> paññati?  Or rather, that neither pañña nor sati can
> arise with paññati?
> 
> Sorry if this is getting circular or repetitive, or if
> these questions are too elementary.
> 
> ....i guess that's what it all
> > comes down to, and
> > practice really does make perfect....
> 
> Here's hoping...mike
> 



 
2340 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 14, 2000 11:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear mike,
More worthy questions. Thank you.
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear  Bruce, Kom et
al.,
> As usual, Bruce, you're anticipating and articulating
> my questions for me.  A possible answer occurred to me
> regarding this persistent problem of the brevity of
> all of these moments.  It seems to me that this
> differentiation is only possible because sati and
> paññá arise and subside just as rapidly--
______
Yes. Paññá  comes in so fast and its function is to understand.
"We" can't help it to understand; "we" can only hinder. Paññá is
sobhana, beautiful, while avijja (ignorance) is very asobhana;
but panna is not something we should worship or desire because
it is also only sankhara dhamma, conditioned phenomenena. 

_______

and that the
> conceptual understanding of these maybe only arises
> with retrospection of moments informed by many
> arisings and subsidings of sati an paññá. 
________
Yes, the deep conceptual understanding is informed by the direct
experience. And it in turn supports deeper levels of direct
understanding.
________
 If this is
> true (maybe even if it isn't), then the desire for
> insight and the aversion to the lack of it are (a)
> painful (this I know for sure) and (b) irrelevant, in
> that sati and paññá will arise in spite of them when
> the conditions exist for their arising.
__________
Right, although Khun Sujin insists that desire to have it
actually stops satipatthana. I think this is because even a
little desire always moves us, albeit ever so slightly, away
from the present moment. You see paramattha dhammas are arising
right now, they never stop. We don't have to go anywhere to find
them. 
_________
> 
> It's early and I'm rambling, and I'm sure I've dragged
> down the level of this exchange by several notches! 
> Thanks for the occasion to 'think out loud' for a
> minute.
_____________>  
Well I can't speak for anyone else but your ideas conditioned
some useful reflection for me.
Robert


 
2341 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 1:21am
Subject: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  If a tree falls in a forest and crushes a meditating anagami's legs, 
did he deserve it? Putting the everyday connotations of "deserve" 
aside, by my reading of Abhidhammattha Sangaha the unpleasant 
physical sensations arising from crushed legs are 
unwholesome-resultant cittas. Inevitably, I find the Sangaha and 
Abhidhamma and Suttas very helpful, but sometimes it takes a little 
work. Without an external agency (a la God effecting divine 
retribution) causing the tree to fall on the bhikku, how can the 
collision between the two be caused by unwholesome thoughts in his 
past? Can someone help me see this as something other than 
superstition? Often, the Abhidhamma explanations are clear upon 
reflection, but in this case, I'd like to find some sutta explanation 
too. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 
2342 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 1:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Robert,

I also looked over the Nirutti-patha-sutta (SN XXII.62) which seems to be
worth studying to get a better idea of the Buddha's use of the word
'pa~n~natti'. It hasn't quite come clear to me yet, but the part about not
confusing a past dhamma with a present dhamma, etc. is clear enough although
it makes me wonder about actually being able to be conscious of present
arupino dhammas as they occur -- in view of their phenomenal rate (17
trillions per second?).

I'm still struggling with the meaning of 'pa~n~natti' which is explained in
the Dhammasangani and the Atthasalini. As far as I can gather, the names for
the paramattha dhammas are pa~n~nattis. I also see similar words alongside
'pa~n~natti' such as nirutti and abhilaapo which suggests a connection to
the nirutti-patisambhida, the third of the 4 discriminations. The objects of
the discrimination of nirutti (linguistic usage) are attha (the meaning of
what is spoken, the signified) and dhamma (what is spoken, the signifier).
There is also the meaning of 'naama' (arupino dhammas and nibbana) to
consider as the word 'naama' is also in the same list with 'pa~n~natti'.

I will be departing any day now, possibly today, depending on when the
person coming to drive me to my destination (Orillia) is free to do so. I'll
be away for two weeks and will be taking K. Sujin's Realities and Concepts
to read over the Christmas holidays. We got wallopped here in Ontario by a
major snowstorm in the past few days with about 30cm of snow (another area
nearby got 66cm).

Best wishes,
Jim A.

>Dear Jim,
>thanks for the references. I looked up the nirutti-patha sutta
>(Mode of reckoning) which explains that we can talk about  past,
>present and future dhammas (the khandas).
>Robert

 
2343 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 2:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Kom,

Thanks, this is really excellent:

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> 
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > --- Bruce  wrote:
> > is a matter of record)?  Would another way of
> saying
> > this that paramattha dhammas are all satipatthana
> and
> > paññati isn't?  
> Satipatthana has at least 3 meanings:
> 1) Aramana of sati (of Satipatthana citta)
> 2) Satipatthana citta
> 3) The path that the Buddha and Ariyas disciple have
> walked.
> I believe you are referring to meaning 1), and the
> answer is yes, only
> poramatha dhammas can be an object of satipatthana.

I THINK this is what I meant--I meant a 'foundation of
mindfulness, which seems slightly different from
'aramanna' in the dsg glossary.
 
> > If so, does this mean that even crude
> > understanding can't really arise from reflection
> on
> > paññati?  Or rather, that neither pañña nor sati
> can
> > arise with paññati?
> There are different levels of panna.  Panna at the
> satipatthana level
> is different from the panna at other levels: it
> knows the paramatha
> dhamma as it is, and it must grow in order for the
> maggha to be
> reached.  However, panna may arise for any kind of
> kusala citta (dana,
> sila, samatha and vipassana bhawana, regardless if
> the citta's aramana
> is paramatha dhamma or not.  

Are these different levels also true of sati?  That
is, can a low level of sati arise with with a
'non-paramattha' dhamma--that is, for example,
paññati?  

> When you are reading
> and understanding
> dhammas (the correct dhamma, of course), at the
> pannati level, another
> level of panna is arising.  

Another level of sati, also?

> When you are giving
> dana, having some vague
> sense that giving is good, there is another level of
> panna rising. 
> It's possible to develop other levels of panna
> without listening to
> Buddha: it is not with Satipatthana.

Thanks for your patience!
 
mn



 
 
2344 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  dear jim,
Thanks for the very interesting letter. See my comments betwen
yours.
--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> I also looked over the Nirutti-patha-sutta (SN XXII.62) which
> seems to be
> worth studying to get a better idea of the Buddha's use of the
> word
> 'pa~n~natti'. It hasn't quite come clear to me yet, but the
> part about not
> confusing a past dhamma with a present dhamma, etc. is clear
> enough although
> it makes me wonder about actually being able to be conscious
> of present
> arupino dhammas as they occur -- in view of their phenomenal
> rate (17
> trillions per second?).
>____________________
Mike brought this up yesterday. "We" could  never be aware of
such dhammas due to this incredible rapididy which never slows
down, even in the Brahma realm. However, as mike said, panna is
also arising and passing away at this same speed. It comes in,
when sufficient conditions have been fulfilled during the
javanna prcocess, and its function is to comprehend nama and
rupa. So anatta is this path. 
_________
> I'm still struggling with the meaning of 'pa~n~natti' which is
> explained in
> the Dhammasangani and the Atthasalini. As far as I can gather,
> the names for
> the paramattha dhammas are pa~n~nattis. I also see similar
> words alongside
> 'pa~n~natti' such as nirutti and abhilaapo which suggests a
> connection to
> the nirutti-patisambhida, the third of the 4 discriminations.

_____________
Many different types of paññatti . You will see them explained
in Realities and Concepts. The vijjamana paññatti are those
words that describe paramattha dhammas such as the khandas. 
____________
> The objects of
> the discrimination of nirutti (linguistic usage) are attha
> (the meaning of
> what is spoken, the signified) and dhamma (what is spoken, the
> signifier).
> There is also the meaning of 'naama' (arupino dhammas and
> nibbana) to
> consider as the word 'naama' is also in the same list with
> 'pa~n~natti'.
> 
> I will be departing any day now, possibly today, depending on
> when the
> person coming to drive me to my destination (Orillia) is free
> to do so. I'll
> be away for two weeks and will be taking K. Sujin's Realities
> and Concepts
> to read over the Christmas holidays. We got wallopped here in
> Ontario by a
> major snowstorm in the past few days with about 30cm of snow
> (another area
> nearby got 66cm).

__________
Enjoy the book and have a nice time in Orillia (and stay warm).
best wishes
Robert





 
2345 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Mike,
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > >Would another way of
> > saying
> > > this that paramattha dhammas are all satipatthana
> > and
> > > paññati isn't?  
> > Satipatthana has at least 3 meanings:
> > 1) Aramana of sati (of Satipatthana citta)
> > 2) Satipatthana citta
> > 3) The path that the Buddha and Ariyas disciple have
> > walked.
> > I believe you are referring to meaning 1), and the
> > answer is yes, only
> > poramatha dhammas can be an object of satipatthana.
> 
> I THINK this is what I meant--I meant a 'foundation of
> mindfulness, which seems slightly different from
> 'aramanna' in the dsg glossary.
Would you say "foundation of mindfulness" equate "conditions for
Satipathana to arise"?

> Are these different levels also true of sati?  That
> is, can a low level of sati arise with with a
> 'non-paramattha' dhamma--that is, for example,
> paññati?  
Absolutely.  Panna is a sobhana cetasikas, when panna arises, it arises
with all 7 sappa-satarana (rising with all citta) cetasikas, some of 6
pakinaka (rising with some cittas) , at least 19 of other sobhana
cetasikas, and maybe the other 5 sobhana cetasikas.  Panna always rises
with Saddha, Sati, alobha, adosa (maybe metta), samathi, and all
others.  Panna ALWAYS arises with Sati, although Sati may arise without
Panna.

> Another level of sati, also?
Yes.




 
2346 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concept vs. Dhamma

 
  Dear Kom,

This is extremely helpful. I'll try to respond at
length when time permits.

Thanks...mike

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > > >Would another way of
> > > saying
> > > > this that paramattha dhammas are all
> satipatthana
> > > and
> > > > paññati isn't?  
> > > Satipatthana has at least 3 meanings:
> > > 1) Aramana of sati (of Satipatthana citta)
> > > 2) Satipatthana citta
> > > 3) The path that the Buddha and Ariyas disciple
> have
> > > walked.
> > > I believe you are referring to meaning 1), and
> the
> > > answer is yes, only
> > > poramatha dhammas can be an object of
> satipatthana.
> > 
> > I THINK this is what I meant--I meant a
> 'foundation of
> > mindfulness, which seems slightly different from
> > 'aramanna' in the dsg glossary.
> Would you say "foundation of mindfulness" equate
> "conditions for
> Satipathana to arise"?
> 
> > Are these different levels also true of sati? 
> That
> > is, can a low level of sati arise with with a
> > 'non-paramattha' dhamma--that is, for example,
> > paññati?  
> Absolutely.  Panna is a sobhana cetasikas, when
> panna arises, it arises
> with all 7 sappa-satarana (rising with all citta)
> cetasikas, some of 6
> pakinaka (rising with some cittas) , at least 19 of
> other sobhana
> cetasikas, and maybe the other 5 sobhana cetasikas. 
> Panna always rises
> with Saddha, Sati, alobha, adosa (maybe metta),
> samathi, and all
> others.  Panna ALWAYS arises with Sati, although
> Sati may arise without
> Panna.
> 
> > Another level of sati, also?
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 



 
2347 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  I'm glad you asked this, as I mentioned off-list.

I have an idea I thought I'd throw out.  In the Kamma
Sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html

The Buddha referred to all the sense-bases and
consciousnesses as 'old kamma'.  From that
perspective, assuming that all the sense bases are the
result of conditioned origination, is the 'old kamma'
of all of them akusala by nature?  If so, assuming
that there's no one to deserve anything, then does
that old akusala kamma carry with it the conditions
for akusala results?

Just a thought...mike
    
---  wrote:
> If a tree falls in a forest and crushes a meditating
> anagami's legs, 
> did he deserve it? Putting the everyday connotations
> of "deserve" 
> aside, by my reading of Abhidhammattha Sangaha the
> unpleasant 
> physical sensations arising from crushed legs are 
> unwholesome-resultant cittas. Inevitably, I find the
> Sangaha and 
> Abhidhamma and Suttas very helpful, but sometimes it
> takes a little 
> work. Without an external agency (a la God effecting
> divine 
> retribution) causing the tree to fall on the bhikku,
> how can the 
> collision between the two be caused by unwholesome
> thoughts in his 
> past? Can someone help me see this as something
> other than 
> superstition? Often, the Abhidhamma explanations are
> clear upon 
> reflection, but in this case, I'd like to find some
> sutta explanation 
> too. Does anyone have any suggestions?
> 
> 



 
2348 From: Bruce   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 11:09am
Subject: canon searches (was: Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  mike wrote:

> Bruce, all of your posts have gone straight to the
> heart of my questions, but with greater clarity and
> precision than I could have managed.  I think we're on
> the same track, but you're running some way ahead.  

no way mike, i'm the newbie, i don't even know how to search the canon (and
if we continue to bow to each other like this we're gonna knock
heads!)....seriously, if someone on the list has the time to send a few
pointers about running canonical searches i'd be very much obliged....do
you all use accesstoinsight plus google? or are there online versions of
the canon with internal search engines?

mettacittena
bruce

 
2349 From: Bruce   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 11:34am
Subject: sitting "vs" non-sitting (was Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  just want to see if i'm getting this...

robert wrote:
> Khun sujin described the experience of vipassana. At those
> moments the sense door and mindoor are known as they are. Now we
> are experiencing colour and sound but the sense door is hidden.

because just as fast (well, almost as fast) as information enters the sense
doors, it's conceptualized by the mind, yes?

> During the minddoor processes when vipassana nana occur the
> sense-door is revealed, at those moments there is the deep
> understanding of the difference between rupa and nama. This is
> nama-rupa paricchedda nana. She says that the theory is
> completely true. This experience of vipassana is not, as some
> think, just knowing in a vague way that rupa is rupa and nama is
> nama. Vipassana actually distinguishes. It cannot be made to
> happen; imagine how fast the processes are changing. Even when
> we think we are feeling tyhe actual rupas in the body they have
> long since passed away. 

and these rupas we think we are experiencing become concepts which we, in
our delusion, take for reality ....yes. example: on the train, we see a
person, we think: "a person" then we remember the Dhamma, and think no: not
a person, just visual information impinging on the eye dvara, but by then
it's too late, isn't it?....we've already conceptualized the visual
information into "a person" and any attempts at undoing the concept are
just a pretense at understanding: "oh no, i actually knew all along that
they are only rupas....", really just understanding "in a vague way" as you
say....or are these miniscule "corrections", these momentary
notings-of-conceptualizations, cumulative? cumulative, in that the moment
of noting is actually an instance of the arising of sati and/or sanna, as
well as the intuitive knowledge/panna of their arising, all of which --in
this case-- are beautiful and will yield beautiful results, and as such
will slowly contribute to the process of untangling, as you say below....or
am i being too optimistic?

<snip>
> Now concept, nama, and rupa are mixed up and they remain this
> way until vipassana occurs. Nevertheless, there is some
> untangling taking place at every moment of satipatthana, every
> time that sati and panna take a paramattha dhamma as object. The
> difference between concept and paramattha dhamma does become
> clearer; but not clear until vipassana.
<snip>

this is all leading me to several more topic branches...i'll post my
questions once i feel confident in articulating them....

mettacittena
bruce

 
2350 From: Bruce   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 11:36am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting (was Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  sorry, i didn't notice that i'd used a title for questions i'm still
formulating before i hit send...less concentration, and more mindfulness!

bruce

 
2351 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 0:29pm
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Bing! Lightbulb! Thanks for your comments. 

The sense bases are of course dependent on conditions. The wheel 
revolves to vedana, and a tree crushes the legs. WHICH kamma CAUSED 
the tree to fall? None, of course. But the kamma generates the 
existence of the bhikku. SOMEWHERE in "his" deep past there of 
course was some bad action, and we say that the kammic result of that 
bad action just happened to ripen when the tree fell. If the tree 
hadn't fallen quite so soon, so the bhikku was able to attain 
arahantship as he sat, then do we still say it is akusala-vipaka? 
Fortunately, most of the time trees don't fall on bhikkus. When they 
do happen to fall, the kamma ripens. If none happens to fall, then the 
kamma doesn't ripen. This seems odd, but nonetheless "safe." Since the 
amount of old kamma is unknown (but large), and the link between 
specific kamma and specific material phenomena (tree falls) is so 
obscure, we can always just say "ripening of kamma" and it can't be 
refuted. On the other hand, such reasoning is weak and tires quickly. 
Thanks for the sutta reference. I will look it up.

> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html
> 
> The Buddha referred to all the sense-bases and
> consciousnesses as 'old kamma'.  From that
> perspective, assuming that all the sense bases are the
> result of conditioned origination, is the 'old kamma'
> of all of them akusala by nature?  If so, assuming
> that there's no one to deserve anything, then does
> that old akusala kamma carry with it the conditions
> for akusala results?
>

 
2352 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] canon searches (was: Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  --- Bruce  wrote:
> mike wrote:
> if we continue to bow to each other like this we're
> gonna knock
> heads!)

Right!  I'll be more careful!

> ...seriously, if someone on the list has the
> time to send a few
> pointers about running canonical searches i'd be
> very much obliged....do
> you all use accesstoinsight plus google? or are
> there online versions of
> the canon with internal search engines?

I do use google and a.t.i., but also have copies of
the sutta and vinaya pitakas, and a little familiarity
with them.  So often I'm able to remember a word,
line, name or title and cross reference from there.  I
use a.t.i. when I can just because I like the site and
am used to their translations.

Watch your head--I really am finding your posts
invaluable--thanks again!  mike
 
> mettacittena
> bruce
> 



 
2353 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting (was Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  --- Bruce  wrote:
<snip>
> and these rupas we think we are experiencing become
> concepts which we, in
> our delusion, take for reality ....yes. example: on
> the train, we see a
> person, we think: "a person" then we remember the
> Dhamma, and think no: not
> a person, just visual information impinging on the
> eye dvara, but by then
> it's too late, isn't it?

Once again, this is just what I've been trying to get
at...

> ....we've already
> conceptualized the visual
> information into "a person" and any attempts at
> undoing the concept are
> just a pretense at understanding: "oh no, i actually
> knew all along that
> they are only rupas....", really just understanding
> "in a vague way" as you
> say....or are these miniscule "corrections", these
> momentary
> notings-of-conceptualizations, cumulative?

...which is why I've been quite relieved to read, for
example, Kom's responses on different levels of sati
and paññá (message #2345).  I have no memory of having
been truly, immediately aware of the distinction
between nama and rupa.  So it's been my only hope that
retrospection 
and conceptualization might provide some level of
understanding.  It's all I (consciously) have to work
with--thought I accept as a working hypothesis that
these factors have arisen for their infinitesimally 
brief periods and left traces (anusaya?) behind to be
passed along from citta to citta...else how could any
understanding arise at all?

> cumulative, in that the moment
> of noting is actually an instance of the arising of
> sati and/or sanna, as
> well as the intuitive knowledge/panna of their
> arising, all of which --in
> this case-- are beautiful and will yield beautiful
> results, and as such
> will slowly contribute to the process of untangling,
> as you say below....or
> am i being too optimistic?

If I understood it correctly, again this is addressed
by Kom's #2345.
 
<snip>

> this is all leading me to several more topic
> branches...i'll post my
> questions once i feel confident in articulating
> them....

Glad to hear it, and looking forward to them...mike


 
2354 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dan,

---  wrote:
> Bing! Lightbulb! Thanks for your comments. 

My pleasure--I hope someone can improve on them...
 
> The sense bases are of course dependent on
> conditions. The wheel 
> revolves to vedana, and a tree crushes the legs.
> WHICH kamma CAUSED 
> the tree to fall? None, of course. But the kamma
> generates the 
> existence of the bhikku. SOMEWHERE in "his" deep
> past there of 
> course was some bad action, and we say that the
> kammic result of that 
> bad action just happened to ripen when the tree
> fell. If the tree 
> hadn't fallen quite so soon, so the bhikku was able
> to attain 
> arahantship as he sat, then do we still say it is
> akusala-vipaka?

I'm not sure, but I don't think vipaka can arise in an
arahant...?  Corrections, please!
 
> Fortunately, most of the time trees don't fall on
> bhikkus. When they 
> do happen to fall, the kamma ripens. If none happens
> to fall, then the 
> kamma doesn't ripen. This seems odd, but nonetheless
> "safe." 

That's the way I feel about it...

> Since the 
> amount of old kamma is unknown (but large), and the
> link between 
> specific kamma and specific material phenomena (tree
> falls) is so 
> obscure, we can always just say "ripening of kamma"
> and it can't be 
> refuted. On the other hand, such reasoning is weak
> and tires quickly.

I think so too.  Maybe one reason why the Buddha said,


"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is
an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured
about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone
who conjectured about it."

Acintita Sutta
Unconjecturable
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-77.html
 
Nice to hear from you again...mike


 
2355 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 5:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting (was Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  Dear bruce,
Thanks for the comments, see mine under yours:
robert wrote:
> Khun sujin described the experience of vipassana. At those
> moments the sense door and mindoor are known as they are. Now
we
> are experiencing colour and sound but the sense door is
hidden.

B:because just as fast (well, almost as fast) as information
enters the 
sense
doors, it's conceptualized by the mind, yes?
__________________
Yes, we live, until we develop satipatthana, in a world of
concept, a shadow world; the development of satipatthana
vipassana shows us another world of dhatus, elements, without
self or control, without things or people, a world that is
crumbling before we even know it. We can’t fully see that yet
but we get glimpses that show us that it is so.  We can’t stop
this process of conceptualisation, even arahants have to live by
concepts, in fact it seems to me that the  forming of concepts,
is an involuntary process. Like the breath we can hold it back
for a while and try to stop it happening but how successful is
this……….. Before the Buddha’s time wisemen could see how this
happened and how it was inevitable that this worked to condition
more greed and aversion. They found that only by training the
mind to concentrate on certain objects was this process arrested
and thus they strived and attained jhana of different levels.
Jhana is highly beneficial but it can never understand this
complex causal arising. Only the development of vipassana can do
so, and that is taught exclusively during a Budddhasasana such
as now.  

___________
> During the minddoor processes when vipassana nana occur the
> sense-door is revealed, at those moments there is the deep
> understanding of the difference between rupa and nama. This is
> nama-rupa paricchedda nana. She says that the theory is
> completely true. This experience of vipassana is not, as some
> think, just knowing in a vague way that rupa is rupa and nama
is
> nama. Vipassana actually distinguishes. It cannot be made to
> happen; imagine how fast the processes are changing. Even when
> we think we are feeling tyhe actual rupas in the body they
have
> long since passed away. 

B:and these rupas we think we are experiencing become concepts
which we, 
in
our delusion, take for reality ....yes. example: on the train,
we see a
person, we think: "a person" then we remember the Dhamma, and
think no: 
not
a person, just visual information impinging on the eye dvara,
but by 
then
it's too late, isn't it?....we've already conceptualized the
visual
information into "a person" and any attempts at undoing the
concept are
just a pretense at understanding: "oh no, i actually knew all
along 
that
they are only rupas....", really just understanding "in a vague
way" as 
you
say..
_______________
This is simply thinking about nama and rupa. It can be done
correctly or not. However, I was especially thinking about more
subtle forms of “knowing”. I used to think that when I was very
calm and aware of minute sensations in the body that this was
satipatthana. But it was simply a level of papanca, mannati,
conceptual proliferation, but masked by the apparent lack of
thinking. There was still fixed belief in a self and control,
even while I was thinking, when I was thinking, that there is no
self. I don’t know if this is clear?
_______

B:..or are these miniscule "corrections", these momentary
notings-of-conceptualizations, cumulative? cumulative, in that
the 
moment
of noting is actually an instance of the arising of sati and/or
sanna, 
as
well as the intuitive knowledge/panna of their arising, all of
which 
--in
this case-- are beautiful and will yield beautiful results, and
as such
will slowly contribute to the process of untangling, as you say 
below....or
am i being too optimistic?
__________

No, I think this is right. The correct understanding of Dhamma
is always rooted in actual panna, it is mahakusala
nanasampayuttam citta, Wholesome citta associated with wisdom.
Especially when considering this topic, untangling concept and
reality, the type of cittas that understand, even only
intellectually are highly beneficial and as you say cumulative
and contribute to direct insight. Nevertheless, intellectual
understanding alone can never eradicate wrongview and so it is
important not to mistake this level for anything higher.

_____________
<Look forwrd to your next post.
Robert


 
2356 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 6:39pm
Subject: The loss of a parent

 
  Dear Friends,

Some of you may be wondering why we haven't been
hearing from Alex recently as we are used to her being
one of our most regular contributors to the list. We
had certainly been wondering if there was any problem
when Mike forwarded me a note about the passing away
of her mother. I asked her permission to let the group
know and she just wrote me this note:

>Dear Sarah and Jonothan,

   Thank you for your condolences and wishes.  I was
at the hospital 
with my 
mother 24 hours/day most of the time when she was
there.  She passed 
away 
peacefully last Friday, and was cremated the day
before yesterday.  I'm 
glad 
that I was with her most of the time.

   When things settle down more, I'll review the
archive more and spend 
more 
time on the Net.  Now, most of the time, I'm with my
father so that he 
would 
not feel lonely and depressed.

   If you think that it's appropriate to announce it
on the list, 
please do. 
  Thank you for your thoughtfulness.

   Take care.  :-)))

Anumodana,
Alexandra Tran



 
2357 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 7:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The loss of a parent

 
  Dear Alex,
Very sorry to hear about the loss of your mother.
I am certain that the best has been done that could have been done.
I do not know if I would have the kusala citta to do as you did towards
your ma and what you are now doing with regards to your father when
and if the time comes for me.
However reading about your experience has inspired a need to change
my own attitude towards my mother, with whom I have had a quite
unhealthy relationship.
May you keep well and hope too that your pa passes this perid of time
without any harm to his health.

Sukin.


Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> Some of you may be wondering why we haven't been
> hearing from Alex recently as we are used to her being
> one of our most regular contributors to the list. We
> had certainly been wondering if there was any problem
> when Mike forwarded me a note about the passing away
> of her mother. I asked her permission to let the group
> know and she just wrote me this note:
>
> >Dear Sarah and Jonothan,
>
>    Thank you for your condolences and wishes.  I was
> at the hospital
> with my
> mother 24 hours/day most of the time when she was
> there.  She passed
> away
> peacefully last Friday, and was cremated the day
> before yesterday.  I'm
> glad
> that I was with her most of the time.
>
>    When things settle down more, I'll review the
> archive more and spend
> more
> time on the Net.  Now, most of the time, I'm with my
> father so that he
> would
> not feel lonely and depressed.
>
>    If you think that it's appropriate to announce it
> on the list,
> please do.
>   Thank you for your thoughtfulness.
>
>    Take care.  :-)))
>
> Anumodana,
> Alexandra Tran
>
>

 
2358 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 8:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting (was Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  dear Mike and Bruce,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > 
> --- Bruce  wrote:
> <snip>
> > and these rupas we think we are experiencing become
> > concepts which we, in
> > our delusion, take for reality ....yes. example: on
> > the train, we see a
> > person, we think: "a person" then we remember the
> > Dhamma, and think no: not
> > a person, just visual information impinging on the
> > eye dvara, but by then
> > it's too late, isn't it?
> 
> Once again, this is just what I've been trying to get
> at...

___________-
There are many levels of understanding. When we think in this
way, provided it is done with genuine kusala then that is wise
contemplation at the thinking level. 
Before vipassana- nana arises (which deeply distinguishes nama
from rupa) there must also have been much direct awareness of
nama and rupa; and that is a higher level than thinking. Not
just a million moments of direct awareness are needed, much more
than that and not during just one life. The different techniques
of vipassana that now abound are correct in that they see the
need for direct awareness,they rightly explain that simply
thinking about dhammas is superficial, and they try to setup the
circumstances for repeated direct awareness to occur.
However, awareness is not under our power, it is
sankhara-dhamma. If we try to have it, it is so very easy to
have a type of lobha (desire) and to remain unaware of rarefied
papanca (proliferations) that obscure reality. The direct
awareness of dhammas is possible but I think no one can tell us
exactly how to have it. It is something that has to be seen each
for themself. It develops gradually and is supported by
intellectual understanding and in turn it supports better
intellectual understanding. 
Sometimes the theory might seem too detailed. And everyone is
different as to what helps them; it is not so that everyone has
to study all the Abhidhamma before direct awareness comes. I
know that the abhidhamma explanation of the way cittas arise
with the different jatis and so on used to leave me cold. Last
time I was in Bangkok khun sujin stressed on it though and I
picked up some knowledge; it started, somehow, to make a
difference. Then a month or so back Kom wrote something about
this, I had heard it before but later that day it really struck
home.
 Obviously this path can't be something we package up and
dispense and viola a few years later get enlightened. The theory
and the practice and the ups and downs and our past
accumulations and so many other things are all interacting in
good and bad ways. There is no self who can do anything but we
can't stop listening and considering and studying the moment
because this has been conditioned too. 
To return to my comments about the more than a million moments
of sati are needed. Even when we experience dhammas directly
with sati if there is only weak understanding the insight cannot
be as clear as if understanding, which has accumulated also by
listening and considering, is strong. If we make it our life
goal to have awareness but we neglect panna then we might have
many moments with sati but it still doesn't do much.
 I don't know if this is useful
Robert_________



 
 
2359  
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:29pm
Subject: Re: The loss of a parent

 
  Dear Sukin and friends,

   Thank you for your wonderful note and wishes.  Before the loss of 
my Mother, I didn't realize that it was that big.  Finally, now, I 
realize that each of us has only one mother and one father.  When 
losing either, no one can fulfill that spot in our life.

   It's no wonder that the Buddha put our parents in a very high 
position.  I'm glad that I'm a Buddhist since I may take care of my 
parents to my best ability in Dhamma.

   Thanks to my parents, I have a chance to be a human being, and 
learn Dhamma.  What a wonderful gift they give me: life, education, 
love, and an opportunity to study Buddhism.

   May my Mother be happy... May all mothers be happy... May all 
parents be happy...

With Metta,
Alex
      
---  Sukinderpal Narula 
 wrote:
> Dear Alex,
> Very sorry to hear about the loss of your mother.
> I am certain that the best has been done that could have been done.
> I do not know if I would have the kusala citta to do as you did 
towards
> your ma and what you are now doing with regards to your father when
> and if the time comes for me.
> However reading about your experience has inspired a need to change
> my own attitude towards my mother, with whom I have had a quite
> unhealthy relationship.
> May you keep well and hope too that your pa passes this perid of 
time
> without any harm to his health.
> 
> Sukin.

 
2360 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting (was Concept vs. Dhamma)

 
  Dear Robert, Bruce et al.,

Robert, your post reminds me of a theme you've
returned to more than once, and rightly I think.  I
can't seem to hear these points often enough--often, I
realize I've returned to them after the fact.  Here's
an excerpt from Robert's post #558:

What can be done? I quoted the Kitagiri sutta
recently:
"And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound
knowledge come by means of a gradual training...?....
he hears Dhamma;
having heard Dhamma he remembers it; he tests the
meaning of the things he has borne in mind; while
testing the meaning, the things are approved of; there
being approval of the things, chanda  is born; with
chanda born he makes an effort; having made the
effort, he weighs it up; having weighed it up..."
 Perhaps we think of this gradual training as a
straight line? I think it is more accurate to think of
it like a spiral. We hear, we test, we apply, we
approve of the meaning.. we make an effort and then we
listen again, test again, we apply again, we
approve…and then back again for more listening, more
testing, more application, again and again and again. 
Where is the practice and where is the theory? I don’t
think we can draw a line between the two. They are
closely connected, they build on each other. 

This seems to me just as appropriate each time I hear
it, even though I seem to lose it each time I regard
these issues from a different angle.  I hope you'll
keep refilling this prescription as needed.

Anumodana, mike

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> dear Mike and Bruce,
> 
> --- "m. nease"  wrote: > 
> > --- Bruce  wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > and these rupas we think we are experiencing
> become
> > > concepts which we, in
> > > our delusion, take for reality ....yes. example:
> on
> > > the train, we see a
> > > person, we think: "a person" then we remember
> the
> > > Dhamma, and think no: not
> > > a person, just visual information impinging on
> the
> > > eye dvara, but by then
> > > it's too late, isn't it?
> > 
> > Once again, this is just what I've been trying to
> get
> > at...
> 
> ___________-
> There are many levels of understanding. When we
> think in this
> way, provided it is done with genuine kusala then
> that is wise
> contemplation at the thinking level. 
> Before vipassana- nana arises (which deeply
> distinguishes nama
> from rupa) there must also have been much direct
> awareness of
> nama and rupa; and that is a higher level than
> thinking. Not
> just a million moments of direct awareness are
> needed, much more
> than that and not during just one life. The
> different techniques
> of vipassana that now abound are correct in that
> they see the
> need for direct awareness,they rightly explain that
> simply
> thinking about dhammas is superficial, and they try
> to setup the
> circumstances for repeated direct awareness to
> occur.
> However, awareness is not under our power, it is
> sankhara-dhamma. If we try to have it, it is so very
> easy to
> have a type of lobha (desire) and to remain unaware
> of rarefied
> papanca (proliferations) that obscure reality. The
> direct
> awareness of dhammas is possible but I think no one
> can tell us
> exactly how to have it. It is something that has to
> be seen each
> for themself. It develops gradually and is supported
> by
> intellectual understanding and in turn it supports
> better
> intellectual understanding. 
> Sometimes the theory might seem too detailed. And
> everyone is
> different as to what helps them; it is not so that
> everyone has
> to study all the Abhidhamma before direct awareness
> comes. I
> know that the abhidhamma explanation of the way
> cittas arise
> with the different jatis and so on used to leave me
> cold. Last
> time I was in Bangkok khun sujin stressed on it
> though and I
> picked up some knowledge; it started, somehow, to
> make a
> difference. Then a month or so back Kom wrote
> something about
> this, I had heard it before but later that day it
> really struck
> home.
>  Obviously this path can't be something we package
> up and
> dispense and viola a few years later get
> enlightened. The theory
> and the practice and the ups and downs and our past
> accumulations and so many other things are all
> interacting in
> good and bad ways. There is no self who can do
> anything but we
> can't stop listening and considering and studying
> the moment
> because this has been conditioned too. 
> To return to my comments about the more than a
> million moments
> of sati are needed. Even when we experience dhammas
> directly
> with sati if there is only weak understanding the
> insight cannot
> be as clear as if understanding, which has
> accumulated also by
> listening and considering, is strong. If we make it
> our life
> goal to have awareness but we neglect panna then we
> might have
> many moments with sati but it still doesn't do much.
>  I don't know if this is useful
> Robert_________
> 
> 
> 



 
2361 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The loss of a parent

 
  Dear Alex,

---  wrote:

>    May my Mother be happy... May all mothers be
> happy... May all 
> parents be happy...

May they all have daughters as good as you.

Anumodana, Ma'am,

mike


 
2362 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear dhd,
Questions on kamma are always hard. Being a confident(reckless?)
type I will try to explain.
You asked about sutta references. The whole of the Jataka, over
550 suttas about the Buddhas prior births, shows the workings of
kamma over time. Also the Therigatha and Theragatha gives many
examples of kamma and its results.
_____________
---  wrote: > If a tree falls in a forest and
crushes a meditating anagami's
> legs, 
> did he deserve it? Putting the everyday connotations of
> "deserve" 
> aside, by my reading of Abhidhammattha Sangaha the unpleasant 
> physical sensations arising from crushed legs are 
> unwholesome-resultant cittas. 
_________
Right, through the bodydoor (kayapassada) we experience either
pleasant result or unpleasant. The example you gave is
unpleasant result, akusala vipaka. It is the result of past bad
kamma. However, kamma alone can never bring a result to
fruition. It has to be supported by other conditions, these
include other paccaya and even our surroundings. If he was in
another place that vipaka may not have arisen at that time,
maybe it would never have the chance to arise. The bodydoor
itself is the result of kamma but because he was in a human
realm it is the result of good kamma not bad. Therefore the
kamma that is producing the bodydoor rupas is not the same one
as that that conditioned the painful feeling.
When we think of the story of kamma I think it is hard to see
how it could be. The Abhidhamma clarifies because it takes all
the self out. In actuality no Bhikkhu, the realities were only
moments of mind and matter.
Take another example: we are enjoying ourselves in a luxury 
hotel. Is that the result of good kamma? In an approximate way
yes. But, as we know, life is only one moment. We might be
eating the most delicious meal but feel an occasional ache
somewhere. The moments of taste were kusala vipaka (wholesome
result) but the moments of ache were akusala vipaka (unwholesome
result). Or we are in the spacious swimming pool. We feel
refreshed but they might be moments when the water we are
swimming in is a little too cold - again this is akusala, the
result of unpleasnant kamma done in the past. Kammapaccaya is
not some outside force, it is carried on citta to citta but it
cannot bring its result until there are sufficient other
conditions to help it. 
This is all of course simply theory. How can we prove it?
Indeed, it is impossible that we could know what kamma
conditioned what result. That knowledge is the domain of
Buddha's only. We can though, according to the texts, (see
Visuddhimagga) see the general way conditions work and go beyond
doubt in this matter at the stage of vipassana. This is because
there is deep insight into the present moment and so there must
be insight into vipaka (resultants) such as seeing, hearing,
tasting, touching, and smelling. 
Khun Sujin gave a talk on this matter that Amara translated:
http://www.dhammastudy.com/kammasakata.html

Robert
________________
Inevitably, I find the Sangaha
> and 
> Abhidhamma and Suttas very helpful, but sometimes it takes a
> little 
> work. Without an external agency (a la God effecting divine 
> retribution) causing the tree to fall on the bhikku, how can
> the 
> collision between the two be caused by unwholesome thoughts in
> his 
> past? Can someone help me see this as something other than 
> superstition? Often, the Abhidhamma explanations are clear
> upon 
> reflection, but in this case, I'd like to find some sutta
> explanation 
> too. Does anyone have any suggestions?
> 
> 



 
2363 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Mike,
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > fell. If the tree 
> > hadn't fallen quite so soon, so the bhikku was able
> > to attain 
> > arahantship as he sat, then do we still say it is
> > akusala-vipaka?
> 
> I'm not sure, but I don't think vipaka can arise in an
> arahant...?  Corrections, please!
The arahant's javana cittas (javana cittas normally accumulates kamma,
anusaya, and vasana) can only be kiriya.  Kiriya cittas are neither
kusala nor akusala; the cetana cetasikas (kamma) arising with them do
not condition vipaka cittas to arise in the future.  In pathana
explanation, the conascent cetana are not nana-kanika-kamma pacaya (not
being accumulated as kamma) for future citta and cetasikas.  This is
not so if you not an arahant as your jhavana can be only either kusala
or akusala.

Vipaka dhammas (citta and cetasikas) are the conditioned dhammas of the
prior kamma.  Vipaka dhammas arise regardless of whether one attains an
arahantship or not.  The buddha himself had both kusala vipakas and
akusala vipakas, even after the enligtenment.  Maha-mogallana, despite
his arahantship (and parami accumulations after 1 asangaya 100,000
kappa), and his supernatural powers, suffered a gruesome death due to
his past kamma.  

> > Fortunately, most of the time trees don't fall on
> > bhikkus. When they 
> > do happen to fall, the kamma ripens. If none happens
> > to fall, then the 
> > kamma doesn't ripen. This seems odd, but nonetheless
> > "safe." 
> 
> That's the way I feel about it...
In a very technical explanation, the kamma ripens when the vipaka citta
arises to cognize the aramana: the prior cetana becomes
nana-kanika-kamma pacaya to the arising vipaka citta.  Take being cold
for example, two person, wearing the same amount of cloth, feel
diffrently despite the same temperature.  Why?  Akusala vipaka cittas
may arise in one, and kusala vipaka cittas may arise in the other.  

I came in contact with an active electrical wire once.  I suffered very
little, and somehow escaped unscath.  Why?  Coincidence?  Luckiness? 
Vipakas?

> "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is
> an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured
> about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone
> who conjectured about it."
Thank you very much, Mike, for this quote.

kom


 
2364 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear mike and dhd,
thanks for highlighting that sutta mike and thanks to both of
you for giving us an idea of the need to understand the
sensebases - most important. See my brief comments.
________
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dan,
> 
> ---  wrote:
> > Bing! Lightbulb! Thanks for your comments. 
> 
> My pleasure--I hope someone can improve on them...
>  
> > The sense bases are of course dependent on
> > conditions. The wheel 
> > revolves to vedana, and a tree crushes the legs.
> > WHICH kamma CAUSED 
> > the tree to fall? None, of course. But the kamma
> > generates the 
> > existence of the bhikku. SOMEWHERE in "his" deep
> > past there of 
> > course was some bad action, and we say that the
> > kammic result of that 
> > bad action just happened to ripen when the tree
> > fell. If the tree 
> > hadn't fallen quite so soon, so the bhikku was able
> > to attain 
> > arahantship as he sat, then do we still say it is
> > akusala-vipaka?
>___________
The moments of vipaka are arising and ceasing so, so fast. when
that monk attained arahatship is a different moment to being
crushed. Another example: we are in a hospital critically
injured. The moments of pain are akusala but they only last for
such a short time. There are also other moments when we are
seeing and if the hospital room is attractive (fat chance) then
those moments are kusala-vipaka (good resultant). The doctor
says kind words, then the moments of hearing are kusala-vipaka
too. We might have so many moments of good resultant but not
realise it because we are busy thinking of the sad story "I am
injured". This story we think is not vipaka, (resultant) at all.
It is kilesa, defilements, (dosa,aversion), it is kilesa-vatta,
the round of defilement, different from the vipaka-vatta, the
round of resultant.
________
> I'm not sure, but I don't think vipaka can arise in an
> arahant...?  Corrections, please!
_________
Oh yes. Arahants, buddhas all have vipaka. The arahants have
bought  kilesa-vatta (the round of defilement) to a halt. They
have also  stopped kamma-vatta (the round of kamma). They will
stop vipaka-vatta (the round of result) but not until
parinibbana. After that there is no more bodysense, no eyesense,
no earsense, no tongue, nose, no minddoor. No way, no where for
any vipaka to arise.
>____Robert







__________  
> > Fortunately, most of the time trees don't fall on
> > bhikkus. When they 
> > do happen to fall, the kamma ripens. If none happens
> > to fall, then the 
> > kamma doesn't ripen. This seems odd, but nonetheless
> > "safe." 
> 
> That's the way I feel about it...
> 
> > Since the 
> > amount of old kamma is unknown (but large), and the
> > link between 
> > specific kamma and specific material phenomena (tree
> > falls) is so 
> > obscure, we can always just say "ripening of kamma"
> > and it can't be 
> > refuted. On the other hand, such reasoning is weak
> > and tires quickly.
> 
> I think so too.  Maybe one reason why the Buddha said,
> 
> 
> "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is
> an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured
> about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone
> who conjectured about it."
> 
> Acintita Sutta
> Unconjecturable
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-77.html
>  
> Nice to hear from you again...mike
> 



 
2365 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 11:03pm
Subject: Re: The loss of a parent

 
  > Some of you may be wondering why we haven't been
> hearing from Alex recently as we are used to her being
> one of our most regular contributors to the list. We
> had certainly been wondering if there was any problem
> when Mike forwarded me a note about the passing away
> of her mother.

> I was
> at the hospital 
> with my 
> mother 24 hours/day most of the time when she was
> there.  She passed 
> away 
> peacefully last Friday, and was cremated the day
> before yesterday.  I'm 
> glad 
> that I was with her most of the time.
> 
>    When things settle down more, I'll review the
> archive more and spend 
> more 
> time on the Net.  Now, most of the time, I'm with my
> father so that he 
> would 
> not feel lonely and depressed.


Dear Alex,

My heartfelt condolences and anumodana for all the wonderful things 
you have done for your parents and continue to do for your father,

Amara

 
2366 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 11:38pm
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Mike,
Thanks for the apt citation! It made me laugh because it is so right 
on the mark.

> "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is
> an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured
> about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone
> who conjectured about it."
> 
> Acintita Sutta
> Unconjecturable
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-77.html

 
2367 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 11:43pm
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Kom,
Thanks for the clarification about arahants and kamma and vipaka. To 
summarize: arahants do not "generate" new kamma but still bear the 
fruits of old kamma. (But they bear the fruits with exquisite grace!)


> Vipaka dhammas (citta and cetasikas) are the conditioned dhammas of 
the
> prior kamma.  Vipaka dhammas arise regardless of whether one attains 
an
> arahantship or not.  The buddha himself had both kusala vipakas and
> akusala vipakas, even after the enligtenment.  Maha-mogallana, 
despite
> his arahantship (and parami accumulations after 1 asangaya 100,000
> kappa), and his supernatural powers, suffered a gruesome death due 
to
> his past kamma.  
> 
> > > Fortunately, most of the time trees don't fall on
> > > bhikkus. When they 
> > > do happen to fall, the kamma ripens. If none happens
> > > to fall, then the 
> > > kamma doesn't ripen. This seems odd, but nonetheless
> > > "safe." 
> > 
> > That's the way I feel about it...
> In a very technical explanation, the kamma ripens when the vipaka 
citta
> arises to cognize the aramana: the prior cetana becomes
> nana-kanika-kamma pacaya to the arising vipaka citta.  Take being 
cold
> for example, two person, wearing the same amount of cloth, feel
> diffrently despite the same temperature.  Why?  Akusala vipaka 
cittas
> may arise in one, and kusala vipaka cittas may arise in the other.  
> 
> I came in contact with an active electrical wire once.  I suffered 
very
> little, and somehow escaped unscath.  Why?  Coincidence?  Luckiness? 
> Vipakas?
> 
> > "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is
> > an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured
> > about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone
> > who conjectured about it."
> Thank you very much, Mike, for this quote.
> 
> kom
> 

 
2368 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2000 11:50pm
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Robert and Mike,
Thanks for keeping the attention focused on the essentials, which I 
was tempting you away from! Sometimes trees do fall on bhikkus, and it 
hurts. Enlightenment does not mean freedom from unpleasant sensations, 
it means freedom from unwholesome response to sensations.

> The moments of vipaka are arising and ceasing so, so fast. when
> that monk attained arahatship is a different moment to being
> crushed. Another example: we are in a hospital critically
> injured. The moments of pain are akusala but they only last for
> such a short time. There are also other moments when we are
> seeing and if the hospital room is attractive (fat chance) then
> those moments are kusala-vipaka (good resultant). The doctor
> says kind words, then the moments of hearing are kusala-vipaka
> too. We might have so many moments of good resultant but not
> realise it because we are busy thinking of the sad story "I am
> injured". This story we think is not vipaka, (resultant) at all.
> It is kilesa, defilements, (dosa,aversion), it is kilesa-vatta,
> the round of defilement, different from the vipaka-vatta, the
> round of resultant.
> ________
> > I'm not sure, but I don't think vipaka can arise in an
> > arahant...?  Corrections, please!
> _________
> Oh yes. Arahants, buddhas all have vipaka. The arahants have
> bought  kilesa-vatta (the round of defilement) to a halt. They
> have also  stopped kamma-vatta (the round of kamma). They will
> stop vipaka-vatta (the round of result) but not until
> parinibbana. After that there is no more bodysense, no eyesense,
> no earsense, no tongue, nose, no minddoor. No way, no where for
> any vipaka to arise.
> >____Robert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________  
> > > Fortunately, most of the time trees don't fall on
> > > bhikkus. When they 
> > > do happen to fall, the kamma ripens. If none happens
> > > to fall, then the 
> > > kamma doesn't ripen. This seems odd, but nonetheless
> > > "safe." 
> > 
> > That's the way I feel about it...
> > 
> > > Since the 
> > > amount of old kamma is unknown (but large), and the
> > > link between 
> > > specific kamma and specific material phenomena (tree
> > > falls) is so 
> > > obscure, we can always just say "ripening of kamma"
> > > and it can't be 
> > > refuted. On the other hand, such reasoning is weak
> > > and tires quickly.
> > 
> > I think so too.  Maybe one reason why the Buddha said,
> > 
> > 
> > "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is
> > an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured
> > about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone
> > who conjectured about it."
> > 
> > Acintita Sutta
> > Unconjecturable
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-77.html
> >  
> > Nice to hear from you again...mike
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

 
2369 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 0:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> The
> bodydoor
> itself is the result of kamma but because he was in
> a human
> realm it is the result of good kamma not bad.

Thanks for this correction!  My attempted explanation
was completely incorrect.

> Therefore the
> kamma that is producing the bodydoor rupas is not
> the same one
> as that that conditioned the painful feeling.
> When we think of the story of kamma I think it is
> hard to see
> how it could be. The Abhidhamma clarifies because it
> takes all
> the self out. 

This was what I was aiming at, but wrongly rather than
rightly--must be more careful.

Thanks again...mn



 
2370 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 0:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Kom,

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:

> > I'm not sure, but I don't think vipaka can arise >
> in an
> > arahant...?  Corrections, please!

> Vipaka dhammas (citta and cetasikas) are the
> conditioned dhammas of the
> prior kamma.  Vipaka dhammas arise regardless of
> whether one attains an
> arahantship or not.  The buddha himself had both
> kusala vipakas and
> akusala vipakas, even after the enligtenment. 
> Maha-mogallana, despite
> his arahantship (and parami accumulations after 1
> asangaya 100,000
> kappa), and his supernatural powers, suffered a
> gruesome death due to
> his past kamma.  

Thanks very much for this correction.  A lot to learn
this morning--by making mistakes in the right company,
as usual...! mike
 



 
2371 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 0:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> This story we think is not vipaka,
> (resultant) at all.
> It is kilesa, defilements, (dosa,aversion), it is
> kilesa-vatta,
> the round of defilement, different from the
> vipaka-vatta, the
> round of resultant.

Excellent and highly pertinent--thanks...
 ________
> > I'm not sure, but I don't think vipaka can arise
> in an
> > arahant...?  Corrections, please!
> _________
> Oh yes. Arahants, buddhas all have vipaka. The
> arahants have
> bought  kilesa-vatta (the round of defilement) to a
> halt. They
> have also  stopped kamma-vatta (the round of kamma).
> They will
> stop vipaka-vatta (the round of result) but not
> until
> parinibbana. After that there is no more bodysense,
> no eyesense,
> no earsense, no tongue, nose, no minddoor. No way,
> no where for
> any vipaka to arise.

...also for this addition to Kom's excellent
correction.  mike


 
2372 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 0:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Dear Mike,
Thanks for taking my small correction so graciously. Your post
was still most helpful though as it reminded us of how we only
get the results of kamma because we have a body. We love our
body so much but if no body, no eyes, no ears, no tongue....no
dukkha. 
Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > The
> > bodydoor
> > itself is the result of kamma but because he was in
> > a human
> > realm it is the result of good kamma not bad.
> 
> Thanks for this correction!  My attempted explanation
> was completely incorrect.
> 
> > Therefore the
> > kamma that is producing the bodydoor rupas is not
> > the same one
> > as that that conditioned the painful feeling.
> > When we think of the story of kamma I think it is
> > hard to see
> > how it could be. The Abhidhamma clarifies because it
> > takes all
> > the self out. 
> 
> This was what I was aiming at, but wrongly rather than
> rightly--must be more careful.
> 
> Thanks again...mn
> 
> 



 
2373 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 3:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...

 
  Well said!!!

---  wrote:

> Enlightenment does not mean freedom from
> unpleasant sensations, 
> it means freedom from unwholesome response to
> sensations.



 
 
2374 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 4:26am
Subject: Questions?

 
  Hello all,

In regards to the comments made the last couple of
days, I began to ponder the following questions:

When does the delusion end, and true insight begin?
If there is no self, and in our activities there is nothing
directing us. Then our initial stages into the study of the
lord buddha, dhamma, etc, is filled with delusion, is it
not? With the use of a description of citta, cetasika,
and rupa, how would the initial stages of insight be
described as they arise and shine light, where there
was once the darkness of delusion?

One other thing, I am struggling to find the usefulness
of certain theory in my study, for instance, about the arising
and falling away of numerous citta as each moment is born
or about nibbaana. It seems that some discussion refers to
things that cannot possibly be experienced. What is the intent
of such theory. As a new entrant into such discussions, in
this life time, would it be best to study in relation to the experiences
of every day life? Why would I want to ponder that which seems
unexperiable, for instance?

Just wondering?

Regards, Jody.

 
2375 From:  
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 6:46am
Subject: Re: Questions?

 
  Dear Jody,
You wrote:
> One other thing, I am struggling to find the usefulness
> of certain theory in my study, for instance, about the arising
> and falling away of numerous citta as each moment is born
> or about nibbaana. It seems that some discussion refers to
> things that cannot possibly be experienced. What is the intent
> of such theory. As a new entrant into such discussions, in
> this life time, would it be best to study in relation to the 
experiences
> of every day life? Why would I want to ponder that which seems
> unexperiable, for instance?

There really is not much point in pondering the unexperiable, and the 
suttas frequently remind us of that. As the meditation practice 
matures, many things that before SEEMED unexperiable begin to look 
more real. Then, some of the ponderous inexperiables are in fact 
experienced, and the dhamma takes on a whole new life in the 
meditator. 

To a non-meditator, the Dhamma (Abhidhamma in particular) may have the 
appearance of being the product of some bright but philosophically 
ignorant person who likes to ponder things without the benefit of a 
strong history and culture of logical, systematic, and scientific 
thought. As practice advances, though, the silly stories in the suttas 
and the dry bones in Abhidhamma come to life, as the yogi begins to 
see how well the ancient masters descriptions of reality match what 
the yogi has EXPERIENCED as reality. Of course, there are some things 
in the descriptions that remain beyond our own experience; but seeing 
how utterly reliably the previously mysterious words take on real 
meaning as the practice matures, the yogi realizes that the phenomena 
that she or he has not yet experienced or understood experientially 
but are nonetheless described in Tipitika are indeed experiable and 
will indeed be understoood experientially as the practice matures. 

Some things in Tipitaka may appear on the surface to be just the 
silly ponderings of someone who lived long ago. But the faithful yogi 
realizes that the apparent silliness is really just a lack of 
understanding of the meaning behind the words and inquires further 
into what the words really do mean. Then, an intellectual 
understanding is developed. That intellectual understanding is 
reflected in "reviewing" the practice, and then it is reflected on 
"in" the practice, and the understanding becomes deeper and deeper. At 
some point it is realized experientially, just like any number of 
other things in the past that appeared mysterious at first.

 
2376 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 6:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions?

 
  Hello, Jody,

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> In regards to the comments made the last couple of
> days, I began to ponder the following questions:
> 
> When does the delusion end, and true insight begin?

I've been thinking along these lines (among others)
myself.  My tentative conclusion, so far, is that
insight begins very coarse (conceptual) and ends very
fine (sammasati of the eightfold path--direct insight
into nama and rupa).

> If there is no self, and in our activities there is
> nothing
> directing us. 

If there is no us, what could direct us?  Just the
arising and subsiding of nama and rupa.

> Then our initial stages into the study
> of the
> lord buddha, dhamma, etc, is filled with delusion,
> is it
> not? 

I think it has to be.

> With the use of a description of citta,
> cetasika,
> and rupa, how would the initial stages of insight be
> described as they arise and shine light, where there
> was once the darkness of delusion?
>

I THINK with something like kusala vs. akusala
vitakka...?
 
> One other thing, I am struggling to find the
> usefulness
> of certain theory in my study, for instance, about
> the arising
> and falling away of numerous citta as each moment is
> born
> or about nibbaana. 

I take the study of citta (and cetasika and the other
namas and rupas) to be necessary for the accumulation
of sufficient knowledge to know the characteristics of
these dhammas when they arise, and especially to not
mistake akusala for kusala dhammas. 

> It seems that some discussion
> refers to
> things that cannot possibly be experienced. 

I accept (as a working hypothesis) that these CAN be
experienced, but not by 'us'--only by sati and paññá.

> What is
> the intent
> of such theory.  

Again, to accumulate sufficient knowledge (paññá?) to
distinguish the various characteristics of these
dhammas.

> As a new entrant into such
> discussions, in
> this life time, would it be best to study in
> relation to the experiences
> of every day life? 

Yes!  But what are those experiences--the stories our
minds create, or the minute impressions at the moments
of contact between the sense bases and their objects? 


> Why would I want to ponder that
> which seems
> unexperiable, for instance?

To condition the arising of understanding, I think.
 
> Just wondering?

So am I.  These are just a bunch of my opinions, hope
you don't mind my sharing them.  You'll get much
better answers than these!  mike


 
2377 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 9:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  (continued)

kusala
(wholesomeness) doesn't it: we are saying in effect
that all
religion has the right to grow as it wishes. This is a
tolerant

Yes, 'cheats' again...

attitude. The akusala side (vancaka) is not being
willing to look
at any bad points or wrong views. The other extreme is
suppressing any dissident views - and we saw this
happen in
China and Russia and Cambodia. This seems to be
benevolence;
protecting the people from their opium.
I use these obvious examples but we are sometimes at
fault too.
We look down on the members of other religions or
those we think
have wrong view within Buddhism: this is conceit, or
refined
dosa, maybe we criticize them but without any
compassion. 

...another one to watch out for...

On the
other hand maybe we are very tolerant in our attitude
to what
others say or think, but this can simply mean that we
do not
really distinguish rightview from wrong - we are then
vulnerable
to the siren calls of those who misapprehend. 

Those who study Abhidhamma are not immune. For some it
is so
removed from daily life that they see it as an
academic subject;
it has minimal effect on removing wrong view, Even if
we believe
in not-self this can be hiding an idea of self (who
believes).

Definitely and usually.

We can see this when we consider anatta- sometimes the
contemplation seems to cut to the bone- and other
times it is
pedestrian, just going through the motions.

True!  But it doesn't hurt, does it!  Always makes me
smile...

It is good to know these things.  This is wisdom too.
Panna at
the level of considering should not be disdained.
In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta)
that 
Kotthita asked Sariputta: 
"'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 
'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for
super-knowledge, for
apprehending, for getting rid of.' 
'But how many conditions are there, your reverence,
for bringing
right understanding into existence?' 
'There are two conditions, your reverence, for
bringing right
understanding into existence: the utterance of another
(person)
and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two
conditions
for bringing wise attention into existence.'"

This is excellent!  And would be good medicine for
those who believe it's all 'letting go'.  I'd like to
see THAT idea supported by a sutta...This 'letting go
of everything' was a big idea of mine, too, when I was
a zen student.  My first inkling that this was
one-sided and deluded was the four right efforts (I
never seem to be able to cite the location of these). 
The zen idea that nibbana is the 'mind ground' that
merely needs to be uncovered is, I think,
unsupportable in buddhadhamma--which is why I'm no
longer a zen student. 

 
The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by
listening
carefully to the right person, by considering and
applying what
we have heard are the conditions for right
understanding built
up. 

Yes, I agree.  

It is a slow process but I can't see a faster way. 

I'm still not completely convinced of the correctness
of your reticence towards formal meditation--I do
understand your reservations, and the real dangers
involved--but I think this part of our conversation
will have to continue another time, to which I look
forward as always..

Have a great weekend!


mike



 
2378 From:  
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 10:56am
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear Robert,
Thanks for your insightful words on kamma and vipaka and rupa. As 
usual, you are right on target. I do have a few comments on some your 
contentions, though.

> When we think of the story of kamma I think it is hard to see
> how it could be. The Abhidhamma clarifies because it takes all
> the self out. In actuality no Bhikkhu, the realities were only
> moments of mind and matter.
Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates sitting 
in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree and the rupa 
of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. The 
collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over and the 
unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the tree 
instead of a few feet away in another direction. The COLLISION was not 
caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka arose from 
the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma just happened 
to ripen then.

The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of the 
discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the natural, 
random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study so much in 
our everyday lives.

 
2379 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 11:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear dhd,
Thank you. This is a  perplexing topic that I've often thought
about. As mike's sutta showed we can't know all on kamma. There
was once a crow flying threw the air when suddenly a flame shot
out and engulfed him. And the buddha said this was the result of
a past kamma, and discoursed on how one can't esacape the
results of kamma by going to a forest, living in a cave, even
being in the air. Another time some monks were stuck in a cave
for 3 or 4 days when a boulder rolled in front of the entrance.
this was the result of them, in a prior life having kept some
animals in captivity (if I remember correctly). I guess you must
be right that the collision isn't caused by kamma as kamma is
something within. When my daughter got knocked off her bike- she
flew meters through the air and was knocked out, whilke the car
actually flipped over,  her injuries were slight. The akusala
vipaka was only a few moments of painful feeling. If there were
strong kammic conditions for more painful feeling at that time
perhaps she would have been badly injured? 
Really this is a hard subject. The more I learn about kamma,
though, the more relaxed I always feel. Flying is so enjoyable
for me now, whereas before I was scared.
Amara have you heard what Khun sujin says about such things?
Robert 
---  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> .
>
> Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates
> sitting 
> in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree and
> the rupa 
> of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. The 
> collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over
> and the 
> unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the
> tree 
> instead of a few feet away in another direction. The COLLISION
> was not 
> caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka
> arose from 
> the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma just
> happened 
> to ripen then.
> 
> The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of
> the 
> discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the
> natural, 
> random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study so
> much in 
> our everyday lives.
> 
> 
> 



 
2380 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 11:43am
Subject: Re: Questions?

 
  > When does the delusion end, and true insight begin?


Dear Jody,

This is a crucial question, for true knowledge to grow and 
accumulate, it must have a beginning, since panna is not one of the 
universal cetasikas that arise with all citta like sanna or passa, 
nor does it arise with all kusala or sobhana citta like sati 
(awareness that accompanies all citta involved with dana, sila and 
bhavana) in its weaker, automatic functions.  This is where 
intellectual studies play the most vital role:  if you had not 
learnt about the dhamma or the truth about things, would you have 
known about the nama (the element tht can know or experience things) 
and rupa (the element that does not experience anything whatever: 
space, invisible gasses and light spectrums, a dead person, etc.)?   
That the nama comprises the citta (the principal factor of 
experience) and cetasika (memory, like, dislike, study, ), for 
example?  That all the kilesa accumulated through billions of 
milleniums could be eradicated by the accumulation of knowledge, 
through studies of realities?  That we have always lived in 
ignorance and will continue to do so if we did not study and 
accumulate knowlege towards realization of the truth one day?  


> If there is no self, and in our activities there is nothing
> directing us. Then our initial stages into the study of the
> lord buddha, dhamma, etc, is filled with delusion, is it
> not? With the use of a description of citta, cetasika,
> and rupa, how would the initial stages of insight be
> described as they arise and shine light, where there
> was once the darkness of delusion?


Because there is no I it does not mean that there is nothing 
directing us, because all our accumulations are there throughout the 
centuries to cause us to cling to the delusion of the self and all 
our natures and habits, as well as condition every tiny details 
about this lifetime of ours from the parents and places we were born 
in to the shape of our faces and feet.  It also conditioned our 
interest in the dhamma and the opportunities to find it.  Had we 
been born a plankton in the Antarctic Ocean we would never have come 
across any such opportunity.


> One other thing, I am struggling to find the usefulness
> of certain theory in my study, for instance, about the arising
> and falling away of numerous citta as each moment is born
> or about nibbaana. It seems that some discussion refers to
> things that cannot possibly be experienced. What is the intent
> of such theory. As a new entrant into such discussions, in
> this life time, would it be best to study in relation to the 
experiences
> of every day life? Why would I want to ponder that which seems
> unexperiable, for instance?


The Buddha almost decided against teaching it, at first, which shows 
how complicated, intricate and extremely difficult it is to truly 
experience.  But he did and millions were able to practice what he 
taught and were able to gain insight and ultimately even complete 
extinction of the kilesa, therefore it is not just a theory to 
ponder and not practice (study and experience) - in fact without the 
practical application, attainment is impossible.  To say it is 
difficult is in fact to praise the Buddha's wisdom, as well as his 
persistence in teaching it for 45 years!  

And none could do the study for you, each must find out for himself, 
if it were possible otherwise or if there were an easier way, he 
would have manifested it.  So since it is so impossibly long and 
hard, we must begin the journey as fast as we can and why not now as 
we read this in front of the screen, there are myriad of realities 
to be studied: sight, color, touch, sounds; all different realities 
able to add to your knowledge of the characteristics of things as 
they really are, all around you at each instant.  When you get right 
down to the immediate study, it is not all that complicated, is it?  
All you need is right understanding which includes the truth that 
study could arise at any moment when there are conditions for it to.  
Therefore the theoretical knowledge would form the most solid basis 
for the practical study to begin.

Thank you for the excellent questions, I hope the answer does it 
some justice, 

Anumodana in your interest,

Amara

 
2381 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 3:29pm
Subject: Cambodia - a personal account

 
  Hello again, everyone.

As you will have heard, the Cambodia trip was a great
experience for those of us who were fortunate enough
to be able to join it.  I was particularly fortunate
to be able to meet for the first time fellow
list-members Betty and Sukin (Bangkok) and Jack, Oi,
Chai, O and Jaran (California).  Thanks to you all,
and to Amara and Sarah, for helping to make it such a
valuable experience.

There was a lot of discussion during the trip.  What
follow are some random points (as understood by
me)that I found particularly useful or interesting.

The need for study vs. knowing one’s limits
We need to study.  We study so that we will be able to
develop a clearer understanding of the reality of the
present moment.  But only certain aspects of what we
study can be related to the reality appearing at the
present moment.  This is because of our limited
accumulated understanding.  The rest is of value as
theoretical knowledge only.  So study by all means,
but not with the idea that the more we study the more
conditions there must necessarily be for direct
understanding of realities to arise subsequently.  We
should know our own limits.

Importance of listening vs. reading
Listening to/discussion with someone who is able to
see our wrong view (ie. who knows our limits) is very
valuable and can help us in ways that self study may
never be able to.

Importance of repeated listening/studying
We’ve heard it before, but we need to hear it again. 
And again and again.  This was so in the Buddha’s
time, and it is even more so today.  The same ‘it’,
but heard (and reflected on) with a different level of
understanding.

Meaning of patipada (pa.tipadaa)
The literal meaning of this term is to reach to or
touch on an object one at a time.  Thus sati or panna
reaches to or experiences a particular reality. 
Patipada does not carry the connotation of a technique
of practice.
Literal translation in Thai:  tyng ch’po.
(Comments by our Pali heads would be welcome)

Pariyatti vs. patipada
-  Thinking about dhamma and about how the world
really is, as opposed to how we perceive it, will only
be pariyatti if it is kusala.  There is no rule which
says that such thinking *must* be kusala.  So there
should not be the idea that this is a form of thinking
to be developed.
-  The considering of a reality, for example, the
hardness appearing now, would be pariyatti rather than
patipada (assuming it is indeed kusala).
-  Without a clear understanding at an intellectual
level of the characteristic of a moment of awareness,
it is very difficult to know the moments of pariyatti
from the moments of patipada.

Thinking in concepts vs. wrong view of self
Just because we see the world in terms of objects and
concepts does not mean that at such moments there is
wrong view of self.  Wrong view of self occurs when we
take something for self.  This is different from
seeing the world in terms of concepts.

Visible object as just that which appears through the
eye-door
-  The statement above says all there is to be said on
the subject.  Any attempt to embellish, eg as to
whether v-o is simply colour or is with or without
shape, depth etc is bound to cloud the issue.
-  The fact that things still appear as conceptualised
objects does not mean that there is or can be no
awareness of seeing or visible object.

Bhavanga citta
Bhavanga cittas have an object from the last moments
of the previous life, ie that is not of this world. 
There are bhavanga cittas arising between all our
sense-door and mind-door processes.  Understanding
this, can there be some level of awareness of there
having been moments of consciousness during which no
object of this world was experienced?  Seeing that
there are such moments in our life could help us to
understand how conditioned our perception of this
world is.

If anyone would like to further discuss, please feel
free to follow up.

To others who were on the trip:  if you have any
points to share, do send a post

Jonothan

PS  A warm welcome to all the newbies who have joined
since my last post.

PPS  We also met many Thai friends who are interested
in joining the list and whose names we hope to see
popping up here in the near future.




 
2382 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 4:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions?

 
  Dear jody,
dhd, mike and amara have already given you excellent answers but
I will add something. See my comments after yours.
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: > Hello all,
> 
> In regards to the comments made the last couple of
> days, I began to ponder the following questions:
> 
> When does the delusion end, and true insight begin?

It began aeons ago, this is the continuation of an ancient path
we have trod before, or so I believe.

> If there is no self, and in our activities there is nothing
> directing us. Then our initial stages into the study of the
> lord buddha, dhamma, etc, is filled with delusion, is it
> not? With the use of a description of citta, cetasika,
> and rupa, how would the initial stages of insight be
> described as they arise and shine light, where there
> was once the darkness of delusion?

My comments over the last few days were to show that the deepest
insight, where nama is actaully distinguished from rupa, only
comes during vipassana-nana. I wanted to make it plain that
vipassana-nana is a brief process that could not be controlled
and is not as easy to have as some think. In the beginning, and
that is now, we are filled with delusion and so everything we do
stinks of self. We can't just sit and concentrate and have
insight, there must be the right conditions. However, if those
conditions are there you could have vipassana-nana even while
reading this, it can happen. We have to understand that this is
a long path. Sometimes prodigies come along who get it fast,
even in these days, but never without hearing sufficient true
dhamma to condition wise attention and samma-ditthi, right view.
I happen to be a slowbe but that is Ok, it is conditioned, not
"me" in fact. We might envy the quick ones but they had
accumulated understanding for aeons, they did the work we are
now doing long ago. The Dhamma needs effort.
 However, not effort of the type that thinks "I will get results
quickly I will attain soon, I will work hard to get proof right
now". That sort of effort is likely to lead us down paths that
supply calm and concentration and pleasant feelings- there are
many spiritual ways that can do all these things. True vipassana
leads to anatta, to nothingness. I think it is not something to
crave for. 

Ones like sariputta and mogallana heard only a sentence of
dhamma and became sotapanna immediately. The hearing of dhamma
conditions yoniso manisikara, wise attention, which leads to the
eightfold path. Before they attained they had developed the
parami, (perfections) for more than 100,000aeons. Thus they were
once like us. They must have listened and pondered and even
being discouraged at times. Nevertheless they didn't lose heart,
they kept on developing. When I hear Dhamma I feel this is a
rare chance and think that I am following the same path as all
the arahants had to follow.


> 
> One other thing, I am struggling to find the usefulness
> of certain theory in my study, for instance, about the arising
> and falling away of numerous citta as each moment is born
> or about nibbaana.

 Before vipassana nana there is direct insight into namas and
rupas but the insight is not clear enough to distinguish them.
It is useful to know about the extreme rapidity because then we
will see that we can't simply concentrate on the present moment
and 'catch' realities, it is more profound than we might have
thought.
Now we begin to understand and it is not necessarily only
theoretical understanding. But the moments of awareness are
brief, we may wonder whether there was any understanding or not.
Such a gradual path but somehow one realises that our
perspective on life is changing. This is the clearing away of
wrongview, it happens at many different levels. We find when we
read a passage in the texts we see it differently than a few
years ago. Perhaps our grip on life has relaxed a little. We are
insulted and it is not taken to heart as much as before. Many
little things. Then again there may be a few, or many, dark
nights (of the soul) , but these help us to see where we are
clinging and going wrong, it is part of it all. We appreciate
that too.

It seems that some discussion refers to
> things that cannot possibly be experienced. What is the intent
> of such theory. As a new entrant into such discussions, in
> this life time, would it be best to study in relation to the
> experiences
> of every day life? Why would I want to ponder that which seems
> unexperiable, for instance?
> 
Yes, I rarely think of nibbana, what for? There are many dhammas
arising now, we should begin to understand them, why think much
of something in the future.
Robert




 
2383 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Mike,
glad you got something out of this. 
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > (continued)
> 
> ROBERT:We can see this when we consider anatta- sometimes the
> contemplation seems to cut to the bone- and other
> times it is
> pedestrian, just going through the motions.
> 
> MIKE:True!  But it doesn't hurt, does it!  Always makes me
> smile...
______________
Actually this is a big point. The contemplation of anatta always
comes with pleasant feling or neutral feeling, if it is true
contemplation. Sometimes we might feel scared thinking there is
no self, but this shows that at those moments there is not
proper contemplation. Good to know- then we can adjust and learn
how to think about it correctly. Even at the intellectual level
this can make a big impact on our life; really our problems stem
from the idea of self.
>_______ 
> It is good to know these things.  This is wisdom too.
> Panna at
> the level of considering should not be disdained.
> In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta)
> that 
> Kotthita asked Sariputta: 
> "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 
> 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for
> super-knowledge, for
> apprehending, for getting rid of.' 
> 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence,
> for bringing
> right understanding into existence?' 
> 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for
> bringing right
> understanding into existence: the utterance of another
> (person)
> and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two
> conditions
> for bringing wise attention into existence.'"
> _________
Just a correction, I should have written in the last line "for
bringing RIGHT UNDERSTANDING into existence"




 
2384 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 9:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account

 
  Welcome Back, Jonothan,

It's interesting how many of your points are very
pertinent to a discussion in progress regarding
concepts vs. dhamma, particularly:

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> But only certain aspects of what we
> study can be related to the reality appearing at the
> present moment.  This is because of our limited
> accumulated understanding.  The rest is of value as
> theoretical knowledge only.  So study by all means,
> but not with the idea that the more we study the
> more
> conditions there must necessarily be for direct
> understanding of realities to arise subsequently. 

Good point--no way of knowing how much study or
hearing will be needed or how far away is the goal. 
Better make hay while the sun shines, though...  

> Importance of listening vs. reading
> Listening to/discussion with someone who is able to
> see our wrong view (ie. who knows our limits) is
> very
> valuable and can help us in ways that self study may
> never be able to.

I've thought about this too--listening to recordings
is more like reading.  It's surely the result of good
past kamma to be where you can hear Buddhadhamma from
someone who can tell if you're 'getting' it or not. 
This list acts in that way, to some extent, don't you
think?
 
> Importance of repeated listening/studying
> We’ve heard it before, but we need to hear it again.
> And again and again.  This was so in the Buddha’s
> time, and it is even more so today.  The same ‘it’,
> but heard (and reflected on) with a different level
> of
> understanding.

Just this point came up recently, too.
 
> Meaning of patipada (pa.tipadaa)
> The literal meaning of this term is to reach to or
> touch on an object one at a time.  Thus sati or
> panna
> reaches to or experiences a particular reality. 
> Patipada does not carry the connotation of a
> technique
> of practice.

Glad you mentioned this.  Otherwise we might have a
proliferation of patipada technical schools. 
Seriously, isn't this pertinent (and easy to forget)
of every aspect of bhavana?  That is, that it's always
citta and cetasika doing the work, conditioned by
yoniso manasikara and having heard the dhamma (thanks,
Robert)?

> Pariyatti vs. patipada
> - Thinking about dhamma and about how the world
> really is, as opposed to how we perceive it, will
> only
> be pariyatti if it is kusala.  There is no rule
> which
> says that such thinking *must* be kusala.  So there
> should not be the idea that this is a form of
> thinking
> to be developed.
> - The considering of a reality, for example, the
> hardness appearing now, would be pariyatti rather
> than
> patipada (assuming it is indeed kusala).
> - Without a clear understanding at an intellectual
> level of the characteristic of a moment of
> awareness,
> it is very difficult to know the moments of
> pariyatti
> from the moments of patipada.

This again is perfectly pertinent to our
discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name,
pariyatti, as this hadn't come up.  The distinction
(and the failure to distinguish) between these two
also adds a dimension to the discussion.  Though still
most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in
regard to both?
 
> Thinking in concepts vs. wrong view of self
> Just because we see the world in terms of objects
> and
> concepts does not mean that at such moments there is
> wrong view of self.  Wrong view of self occurs when
> we
> take something for self.  This is different from
> seeing the world in terms of concepts.

Thanks, very useful.  So the danger isn't in
conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by
tanha, ditthi and/or mana?  Or any other akusala, I
suppose...
 
> Visible object as just that which appears through
> the
> eye-door
> -  The statement above says all there is to be said
> on
> the subject.  Any attempt to embellish, eg as to
> whether v-o is simply colour or is with or without
> shape, depth etc is bound to cloud the issue.

OK!

> -  The fact that things still appear as
> conceptualised
> objects does not mean that there is or can be no
> awareness of seeing or visible object.

Simultaneously?  So is this pariyatti?  Awareness with
concept?  Of concept?
 
> Bhavanga citta
> Bhavanga cittas have an object from the last moments
> of the previous life, ie that is not of this world. 
> There are bhavanga cittas arising between all our
> sense-door and mind-door processes.  Understanding
> this, can there be some level of awareness of there
> having been moments of consciousness during which no
> object of this world was experienced?  

It always seems that 'I'm experiencing' the
past--however recent.

> Seeing that
> there are such moments in our life could help us to
> understand how conditioned our perception of this
> world is.

Definitely!
 
Thanks for bringing it all back home...mike


 
2385 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 10:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> The contemplation of
> anatta always
> comes with pleasant feling or neutral feeling, if it
> is true
> contemplation. Sometimes we might feel scared
> thinking there is
> no self, but this shows that at those moments there
> is not
> proper contemplation. Good to know- then we can
> adjust and learn
> how to think about it correctly. Even at the
> intellectual level
> this can make a big impact on our life; really our
> problems stem
> from the idea of self.

This is really interesting, I didn't know--so it's no
coincidence.  A nice touch-stone...is there a
technical-abhidhamma explanation or description of
this?  That is, something about a citta with anatta as
its object always being accompanied by uppekha or
somanassa, or something like that?
> >_______ 
> > It is good to know these things.  This is wisdom
> too.
> > Panna at
> > the level of considering should not be disdained.
> > In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43,
> Mahavedallasutta)
> > that 
> > Kotthita asked Sariputta: 
> > "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your
> reverence?' 
> > 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for
> > super-knowledge, for
> > apprehending, for getting rid of.' 
> > 'But how many conditions are there, your
> reverence,
> > for bringing
> > right understanding into existence?' 
> > 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for
> > bringing right
> > understanding into existence: the utterance of
> another
> > (person)
> > and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the
> two
> > conditions
> > for bringing wise attention into existence.'"
> > _________
> Just a correction, I should have written in the last
> line "for
> bringing RIGHT UNDERSTANDING into existence"

Got that--again, what a great citation.  This is a
simple answer to a lot of questions--though from an
incredibly complex sutta!

Thanks again...mike


 
2386 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 10:44pm
Subject: Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life

 
  Dear all,

We have just finished uploading the 1st chapter of Nina VG's 
'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in the intermediate section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Other chapters will be coming soon, 
enjoy!  Pinna is also preparing more of her letters for us, in the 
meantime the translation of 'Paccaya' has reached p.56 out of 72pp.  
Anyone interested in the latter work in progress could please contact 
me off list,

Amara

 
2387 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 10:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > The contemplation of
> > anatta always
> > comes with pleasant feling or neutral feeling, if it
> > is true
> > contemplation. Sometimes we might feel scared
> > thinking there is
> > no self, but this shows that at those moments there
> > is not
> > proper contemplation. Good to know- then we can
> > adjust and learn
> > how to think about it correctly. Even at the
> > intellectual level
> > this can make a big impact on our life; really our
> > problems stem
> > from the idea of self.
> 
> This is really interesting, I didn't know--so it's no
> coincidence.  A nice touch-stone...is there a
> technical-abhidhamma explanation or description of
> this?  That is, something about a citta with anatta as
> its object always being accompanied by uppekha or
> somanassa, or something like that?
> > >_______ 

 Yes, all kusala cittas even at the level of thinking can only
come with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. And anatta -sanna,
even at the thinking level, also always arises with panna
(nana-sampayuttam). One caution though. Lobha(desire) also comes
with pleasant feeling so it is not an entirely reliable guide,
but at least we know if the feeling is unpleasant that at those
moments no kusala. When we know more details like this it helps
us to compare when the moments are actually occuring and it
becomes clearer what is what. (and what is not what)
Robert
> > 


 
2388 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 10:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life

 
  Dear Amara,
Couldn't have come at a better time. I just sent off my last
spare copy of Abhid. in daily life this week. looking forwrad to
yuor translation of paccaya when you finish.
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> Dear all,
> 
> We have just finished uploading the 1st chapter of Nina VG's 
> 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in the intermediate section of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Other chapters will be coming
> soon, 
> enjoy!  Pinna is also preparing more of her letters for us, in
> the 
> meantime the translation of 'Paccaya' has reached p.56 out of
> 72pp.  
> Anyone interested in the latter work in progress could please
> contact 
> me off list,
> 
> Amara
> 



 
 
2389 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2000 11:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life

 
  Dear Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> We have just finished uploading the 1st chapter of
> Nina VG's 
> 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in the intermediate
> section of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Other chapters will
> be coming soon, 
> enjoy!  

This is great news.  I've been reading this book
nearly every day for well over a month and am only to
page 90.  I can't recommend it highly enough.  I'm
presently at the chapter on ahetuka cittas.  I thought
this would be incredibly abstract and difficult to
comprehend--not so!  It is amazingly intuitive.  It's
as if I've always known about these and have just been
waiting to have them named and explained.

> Pinna is also preparing more of her letters
> for us, in the 
> meantime the translation of 'Paccaya' has reached
> p.56 out of 72pp.

Yes, please do send along the next installment of
'Paccaya'--I have 1-19 (top of page 40) already. 
Though I don't have 'Word' on my machine, I do have
'Word Viewer', which doesn't allow editing.  If you
wouldn't mind sending the entire work again, I'll just
replace the file I have.

Anumodana, Ma'am,

mike


 
2390 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 0:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

>  Yes, all kusala cittas even at the level of
> thinking can only
> come with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. 

Did you mean pleasant or neutral feeling?

> And anatta
> -sanna,
> even at the thinking level, also always arises with
> panna
> (nana-sampayuttam). 

--which is kusala ergo accompanied by pleasant or
neutral feeling?

> One caution though.
> Lobha(desire) also comes
> with pleasant feeling so it is not an entirely
> reliable guide,
> but at least we know if the feeling is unpleasant
> that at those
> moments no kusala. 

Right.

> When we know more details like
> this it helps
> us to compare when the moments are actually occuring
> and it
> becomes clearer what is what. (and what is not what)

Right again.  By the way, I think NVG mentioned in
AIDL that pleasant feeling with kusala 'feels'
different from pleasant feeling with lobha.  I think
she's right, and found the quote from the
Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) to be very descriptive, at
least of the experience of coarse lobha:  

"...lobha has the characteristic of grasping an
object, like birdlime (lit. "monkey lime").  [I love
that part, clinging like monkey poop to a rock,
say--and the next:] Its function is sticking, like
meat put in a hot pan.  It is manifested as not giving
up, like the dye of lampblack.  Its proximate cause is
seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. 
Swelling with the current of craving, it should be
regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss,
as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean."

The feeling attending reflections on anatta is very
different from this, isn't it?  Quite opposite,
really, unclinging and unsticking, seeing enjoyment in
things leading out of bondage, quite liberating
('lovely in the beginning?)  A valuable reflection, I
think.  (Pariyatti?)  

mike


 
2391 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 1:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Hi Mike,

I am confused with this post.  It appears to have been written by
multiple people, but looking back at the threads in the conversation,
there was no one else who posted the text.  However, the text looks
familiar, so it might have been a combination of different posts in the
different threads (including the MO thread?).  

kom

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> (continued)
> 
> kusala
> (wholesomeness) doesn't it: we are saying in effect
> that all
> religion has the right to grow as it wishes. This is a
> tolerant
> 
> Yes, 'cheats' again...
> 
> attitude. The akusala side (vancaka) is not being
> willing to look
> at any bad points or wrong views. The other extreme is
> suppressing any dissident views - and we saw this
> happen in
> China and Russia and Cambodia. This seems to be
> benevolence;
> protecting the people from their opium.
> I use these obvious examples but we are sometimes at
> fault too.
> We look down on the members of other religions or
> those we think
> have wrong view within Buddhism: this is conceit, or
> refined
> dosa, maybe we criticize them but without any
> compassion. 
> 
> ...another one to watch out for...
> 
> On the
> other hand maybe we are very tolerant in our attitude
> to what
> others say or think, but this can simply mean that we
> do not
> really distinguish rightview from wrong - we are then
> vulnerable
> to the siren calls of those who misapprehend. 
> 
> Those who study Abhidhamma are not immune. For some it
> is so
> removed from daily life that they see it as an
> academic subject;
> it has minimal effect on removing wrong view, Even if
> we believe
> in not-self this can be hiding an idea of self (who
> believes).
> 
> Definitely and usually.
> 
> We can see this when we consider anatta- sometimes the
> contemplation seems to cut to the bone- and other
> times it is
> pedestrian, just going through the motions.
> 
> True!  But it doesn't hurt, does it!  Always makes me
> smile...
> 
> It is good to know these things.  This is wisdom too.
> Panna at
> the level of considering should not be disdained.
> In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta)
> that 
> Kotthita asked Sariputta: 
> "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 
> 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for
> super-knowledge, for
> apprehending, for getting rid of.' 
> 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence,
> for bringing
> right understanding into existence?' 
> 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for
> bringing right
> understanding into existence: the utterance of another
> (person)
> and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two
> conditions
> for bringing wise attention into existence.'"
> 
> This is excellent!  And would be good medicine for
> those who believe it's all 'letting go'.  I'd like to
> see THAT idea supported by a sutta...This 'letting go
> of everything' was a big idea of mine, too, when I was
> a zen student.  My first inkling that this was
> one-sided and deluded was the four right efforts (I
> never seem to be able to cite the location of these). 
> The zen idea that nibbana is the 'mind ground' that
> merely needs to be uncovered is, I think,
> unsupportable in buddhadhamma--which is why I'm no
> longer a zen student. 
> 
>  
> The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by
> listening
> carefully to the right person, by considering and
> applying what
> we have heard are the conditions for right
> understanding built
> up. 
> 
> Yes, I agree.  
> 
> It is a slow process but I can't see a faster way. 
> 
> I'm still not completely convinced of the correctness
> of your reticence towards formal meditation--I do
> understand your reservations, and the real dangers
> involved--but I think this part of our conversation
> will have to continue another time, to which I look
> forward as always..
> 
> Have a great weekend!
> 
> 
> mike
> 
> 



 
2392 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 1:15am
Subject: Re: Accidental Post

 
  Sorry, Kom and everyone, this was the second half of a
long-winded off-list reply to Robert, posted here by
accident.  Please feel free to jump in, or disregard
as you like...  

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> 
> I am confused with this post.  It appears to have
> been written by
> multiple people, but looking back at the threads in
> the conversation,
> there was no one else who posted the text



 
2393 From:  
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 2:21am
Subject: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Robert,
A few comments. You wrote:
>>> The contemplation of anatta always comes with pleasant feling or 
neutral feeling, if it is true contemplation. Sometimes we might feel 
scared thinking there is no self, but this shows that at those moments 
there is not proper contemplation. <<<

When the realization of the dissolution and slipperiness of the 
aggregates and the lack of control over the spinning of samsara 
becomes clear to the meditator, "anatta" may be presented to the mind 
in a mundane flash of insight. Before the mind can think: "Oh, look! 
There was a flash of 'anatta'", a sensation of fear may naturally 
arise. In this context, the 'fear' does not present itself like the 
ordinary fear associated with, say, hearing the sound of a tree branch 
cracking just before it crushes the legs. It is more like fear just 
being presented to the mind as an object, an object like so many 
others that are presented, but in the presentation it becomes clear 
that the attachment to Self is strong, that fear is one tool that the 
Self-notion uses to preserve itself, and that contemplating detachedly 
the natural fear that arises with insight into anatta is a powerful 
weapon to wield against that fear and against the Self-notion. In 
instances like these, some questions that come up might be: Is fear 
unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear presents itself to the 
mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and adhitana), it seems to 
me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant feeling or even fear 
when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a reliable indication 
that the practice has gone astray. 

[Please be patient with my mangling of technical terms. I'm here to 
learn about the proper words to put on "ideas". Help in this regard 
would be greatly appreciated.]

>  Yes, all kusala cittas even at the level of thinking can only
> come with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. And anatta -sanna,
> even at the thinking level, also always arises with panna
> (nana-sampayuttam). One caution though. Lobha(desire) also comes
> with pleasant feeling so it is not an entirely reliable guide,
> but at least we know if the feeling is unpleasant that at those
> moments no kusala. When we know more details like this it helps
> us to compare when the moments are actually occuring and it
> becomes clearer what is what. (and what is not what)

 
2394 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 2:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dan,

I think this is a very interesting topic and I'd like
to respond to it.  I'm very pressed for time right now
and will be for the next week and a half--I will be
'connected' but on a somewhat catch-as-catch-can
basis.  I will respond ASAP.

Thanks for your patience...mike

---  wrote:

> When the realization of the dissolution and
> slipperiness of the 
> aggregates and the lack of control over the spinning
> of samsara 
> becomes clear to the meditator, "anatta" may be
> presented to the mind 
> in a mundane flash of insight. Before the mind can
> think: "Oh, look! 
> There was a flash of 'anatta'", a sensation of fear
> may naturally 
> arise. In this context, the 'fear' does not present
> itself like the 
> ordinary fear associated with, say, hearing the
> sound of a tree branch 
> cracking just before it crushes the legs. It is more
> like fear just 
> being presented to the mind as an object, an object
> like so many 
> others that are presented, but in the presentation
> it becomes clear 
> that the attachment to Self is strong, that fear is
> one tool that the 
> Self-notion uses to preserve itself, and that
> contemplating detachedly 
> the natural fear that arises with insight into
> anatta is a powerful 
> weapon to wield against that fear and against the
> Self-notion. In 
> instances like these, some questions that come up
> might be: Is fear 
> unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear
> presents itself to the 
> mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and
> adhitana), it seems to 
> me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant
> feeling or even fear 
> when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a
> reliable indication 
> that the practice has gone astray. 
> 
> [Please be patient with my mangling of technical
> terms. I'm here to 
> learn about the proper words to put on "ideas". 
Help
> in this regard 
> would be greatly appreciated.]



 
2395 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:26am
Subject: Re : Questions

 
  Dear Robert, Mike, dh5, and amara,

Thank you for the excellent responses! It wasen't so much
the teachings of the Lord Buddha I questioned, but some of the
interpretations and accompanying elaborations that I've come across.

Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of Western knowledges
like physics, psychology, biology, and, biochemistry. These seem to be
mental constructs that many may be assuming as discovering
characteristics
of nama and rupa that were not accounted for during the time of the
Buddha.

I have no doubt that the Dhamma provides a means to nibbaana. That
there are three characteristics to existence, dukkha, anicca, and antta.
That the middle way will lead to salvation. I believe in kamma. etc.

I just wonder sometimes that some engage in intellectualizing the
Dhamma with the so- called advanced answers of the present.

Thanks again, Jody.

 
2396 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> >  Yes, all kusala cittas even at the level of
> > thinking can only
> > come with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. 
> 
> Did you mean pleasant or neutral feeling?
______
Yes I did, sorry about that.
_____
> 
> > And anatta
> > -sanna,
> > even at the thinking level, also always arises with
> > panna
> > (nana-sampayuttam). 
> 
> --which is kusala ergo accompanied by pleasant or
> neutral feeling?
______
YES
____
> 
> > One caution though.
> > Lobha(desire) also comes
> > with pleasant feeling so it is not an entirely
> > reliable guide,
> > but at least we know if the feeling is unpleasant
> > that at those
> > moments no kusala. 
> 
> Right.
> 
> > When we know more details like
> > this it helps
> > us to compare when the moments are actually occuring
> > and it
> > becomes clearer what is what. (and what is not what)
> 
> Right again.  By the way, I think NVG mentioned in
> AIDL that pleasant feeling with kusala 'feels'
> different from pleasant feeling with lobha.  I think
> she's right, and found the quote from the
> Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) to be very descriptive, at
> least of the experience of coarse lobha:  
________
Yes it does but refined lobha comes with rather refined pleasant
feeling (but still coarse compared to that with kusala) so is
hard to distinguish. It needs ever more study and care and panna
to do so.
> 
> "...lobha has the characteristic of grasping an
> object, like birdlime (lit. "monkey lime").  [I love
> that part, clinging like monkey poop to a rock,
> say--and the next:] Its function is sticking, like
> meat put in a hot pan.  It is manifested as not giving
> up, like the dye of lampblack.  Its proximate cause is
> seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. 
> Swelling with the current of craving, it should be
> regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss,
> as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean."
> 
> The feeling attending reflections on anatta is very
> different from this, isn't it?  Quite opposite,
> really, unclinging and unsticking, seeing enjoyment in
> things leading out of bondage, quite liberating
> ('lovely in the beginning?)  A valuable reflection, I
> think.  (Pariyatti?)  
> ----------
Right!
Robert
> 



 
2397 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions

 
  Dear Jody,
Thanks Jody. Could you specify where the knowledge "like
physics, psycholgy, biology and biochemistry" came in during the
discussions?
Robert
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: >  
> Dear Robert, Mike, dh5, and amara,
> 
> Thank you for the excellent responses! It wasen't so much
> the teachings of the Lord Buddha I questioned, but some of the
> interpretations and accompanying elaborations that I've come
> across.
> 
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of Western
> knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and, biochemistry. These
> seem to be
> mental constructs that many may be assuming as discovering
> characteristics
> of nama and rupa that were not accounted for during the time
> of the
> Buddha.
> 
> I have no doubt that the Dhamma provides a means to nibbaana.
> That
> there are three characteristics to existence, dukkha, anicca,
> and antta.
> That the middle way will lead to salvation. I believe in
> kamma. etc.
> 
> I just wonder sometimes that some engage in intellectualizing
> the
> Dhamma with the so- called advanced answers of the present.
> 
> Thanks again, Jody.
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 



 
2398 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear dhd,
I  agree. The moments change rapidly, one moment akusala fear,
due to the clinging to self, immediately or quickly afterwards,
there can be insight, detachment and equanamity.
Robert 
---  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> A few comments. You wrote:
> >>> The contemplation of anatta always comes with pleasant
> feling or 
> neutral feeling, if it is true contemplation. Sometimes we
> might feel 
> scared thinking there is no self, but this shows that at those
> moments 
> there is not proper contemplation. <<<
> 
> When the realization of the dissolution and slipperiness of
> the 
> aggregates and the lack of control over the spinning of
> samsara 
> becomes clear to the meditator, "anatta" may be presented to
> the mind 
> in a mundane flash of insight. Before the mind can think: "Oh,
> look! 
> There was a flash of 'anatta'", a sensation of fear may
> naturally 
> arise. In this context, the 'fear' does not present itself
> like the 
> ordinary fear associated with, say, hearing the sound of a
> tree branch 
> cracking just before it crushes the legs. It is more like fear
> just 
> being presented to the mind as an object, an object like so
> many 
> others that are presented, but in the presentation it becomes
> clear 
> that the attachment to Self is strong, that fear is one tool
> that the 
> Self-notion uses to preserve itself, and that contemplating
> detachedly 
> the natural fear that arises with insight into anatta is a
> powerful 
> weapon to wield against that fear and against the Self-notion.
> In 
> instances like these, some questions that come up might be: Is
> fear 
> unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear presents itself
> to the 
> mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and adhitana), it
> seems to 
> me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant feeling or even
> fear 
> when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a reliable
> indication 
> that the practice has gone astray. 
> 
> [Please be patient with my mangling of technical terms. I'm
> here to 
> learn about the proper words to put on "ideas". Help in this
> regard 
> would be greatly appreciated.]
> 
> >  Yes, all kusala cittas even at the level of thinking can
> only
> > come with pleasant or unpleasant feeling.
CORRECTION: pleasant or NEUTRAL feeling
 And anatta -sanna,
> > even at the thinking level, also always arises with panna
> > (nana-sampayuttam). One caution though. Lobha(desire) also
> comes
> > with pleasant feeling so it is not an entirely reliable
> guide,
> > but at least we know if the feeling is unpleasant that at
> those
> > moments no kusala. When we know more details like this it
> helps
> > us to compare when the moments are actually occuring and it
> > becomes clearer what is what. (and what is not what)
> 
> 



 
2399 From:  
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Re : Questions

 
  Dear Jody,
I'm curious about some interesting but enigmatic comments you made. In  
particular, you write:
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of Western knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and, biochemistry. These seem to 
be
> mental constructs that many may be assuming as discovering
> characteristics
> of nama and rupa that were not accounted for during the time of the
> Buddha.
I have seen very little on this discussion board about physics, 
biology, and biochemisty, and although there has been a lot of 
psychology discussed, it has had, let us say, a Buddhist flavor about 
it, don't you think?

 
2400 From: Bruce   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  hi dhd

when jody wrote:
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of Western knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and, biochemistry. 

...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous discussions, as the
post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of  these
things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to figure out
the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical phenomena", trying to
quantify the world outside experiential reality....

um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential reality?

you wrote:

> Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates sitting 
> in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree and the rupa 
> of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. The 
> collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over and the 
> unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the tree 
> instead of a few feet away in another direction. The COLLISION was not 
> caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka arose from 
> the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma just happened 
> to ripen then.
> 
> The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of the 
> discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the natural, 
> random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study so much in 
> our everyday lives.

the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step back....leaving
aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused by kamma, i
want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by kamma? i ask
because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa are
conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other wind -- is in
itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!

i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical phenomena" you
mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought into being by
means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this manner? i'm
quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last sentence
above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if that's the case
then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall away dependent
on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....

i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the intricate workings
of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no longer be
considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are phenomena that are
not conditioned by kamma (other than the un-conditioned)....can something
other than kamma condition nama or rupa?

or did i read too much into the above:  were you simply saying all along
that we spend too much time trying to figure out the so-called physical
universe, when true knowledge/panna of experiential reality is so urgent? 

looking forward to all comments, view-adjustments and well-lit examples....

mettacittena
bruce

 
2401 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 226

 
  Dear Alex,
Am indeed sorry to hear of the loss of your mother. You are very fortunate
that you could be there for her up until the very end and thus the metta and
care you extended to her will be of great benefit to both of you: you for
the kusala kamma you have created with your mother and for her, the very
fortunate  vipaka to have you for a loving and caring daughter.

May the study and increasing understanding of dhamma bring comfort to you
and your father.

With fond regards,
Betty Yugala
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160



 
2402 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 6:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear bruce,
I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad
thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do
have comments. 
Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the
workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can
know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly
conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the
past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According
to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until
a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because
the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See
further below.
--- Bruce  wrote: > hi dhd
> > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> discussions, as the
> post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of
>  these
> things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to
> figure out
> the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> phenomena", trying to
> quantify the world outside experiential reality...
____________
I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in
thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge
has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way
to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both
suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For
instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas,
the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if
we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it
was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we
might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some
of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and
brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it
useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety
of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are
states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It
seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other
planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop
me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or
devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a
rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it
is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am
simply gullible.  Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful
stories that apply to our lives.
The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout
the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such
things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish
and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
doesn't surprise me.
____________> 
> um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> reality?
> 
> you wrote:
> 
> > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates
> sitting 
> > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree
> and the rupa 
> > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka.
> The 
> > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over
> and the 
> > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the
> tree 
> > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> COLLISION was not 
> > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka
> arose from 
> > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> just happened 
> > to ripen then.
> > 
> > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of
> the 
> > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the
> natural, 
> > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study
> so much in 
> > our everyday lives.
> 
> the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> back....leaving
> aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused
> by kamma, i
> want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> kamma? i ask
> because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa
> are
> conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other wind
> -- is in
> itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!

__________________
There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature)
and ahara (nutrition).
All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness),
(apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and
vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a
massive range of intensity and so we get  much variety in flora,
in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu
is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions
to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good
kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel
arises due to his good kamma.

__________
> 
> i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> phenomena" you
> mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought
> into being by
> means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this
> manner? i'm
> quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last
> sentence
> above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> that's the case
> then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall
> away dependent
> on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
-----------------
No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma.
All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling,
is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma.  You are
entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena
arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower
than namas but still incredibly fast.
__________________> 
> i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> intricate workings
> of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no
> longer be
> considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> phenomena that are
> not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> un-conditioned)....can something
> other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
__________
There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study
the others too.
 This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear
that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to
arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha
would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to
fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this
fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would
love to know more about this topic)


Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will
add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs
non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). 
Robert



 
2403 From: Bruce   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 7:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  hi robert

thanks for posting such a clear, honest and profound reply....i'll reread
it a few times before i make comments, though i have a feeling most of my
comments will be along the lines of "thanks for making this clear" and "now
i see"...

big anumodana
bruce


At 02:50 2000/12/17 -0800, you wrote:
> Dear bruce,
> I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad
> thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do
> have comments. 
> Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the
> workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can
> know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
> objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly
> conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the
> past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
> Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According
> to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until
> a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because
> the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See
> further below.
> --- Bruce  wrote: > hi dhd
> > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> > discussions, as the
> > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of
> >  these
> > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to
> > figure out
> > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> > phenomena", trying to
> > quantify the world outside experiential reality...
> ____________
> I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in
> thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
> things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge
> has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way
> to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both
> suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For
> instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas,
> the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if
> we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
> exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it
> was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we
> might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some
> of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and
> brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
> majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it
> useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety
> of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
> animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are
> states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
> Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
> detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It
> seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
> bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other
> planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop
> me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or
> devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a
> rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it
> is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
> thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am
> simply gullible.  Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful
> stories that apply to our lives.
> The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout
> the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
> that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
> least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
> astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such
> things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish
> and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
> doesn't surprise me.
> ____________> 
> > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> > reality?
> > 
> > you wrote:
> > 
> > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates
> > sitting 
> > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree
> > and the rupa 
> > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka.
> > The 
> > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over
> > and the 
> > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the
> > tree 
> > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> > COLLISION was not 
> > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka
> > arose from 
> > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> > just happened 
> > > to ripen then.
> > > 
> > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of
> > the 
> > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the
> > natural, 
> > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study
> > so much in 
> > > our everyday lives.
> > 
> > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> > back....leaving
> > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused
> > by kamma, i
> > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> > kamma? i ask
> > because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa
> > are
> > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other wind
> > -- is in
> > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
> 
> __________________
> There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
> actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature)
> and ahara (nutrition).
> All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
> inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness),
> (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and
> vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a
> massive range of intensity and so we get  much variety in flora,
> in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
> conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu
> is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
> considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
> never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions
> to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
> inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good
> kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel
> arises due to his good kamma.
> 
> __________
> > 
> > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> > phenomena" you
> > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought
> > into being by
> > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this
> > manner? i'm
> > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last
> > sentence
> > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> > that's the case
> > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall
> > away dependent
> > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
> -----------------
> No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma.
> All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling,
> is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
> factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma.  You are
> entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena
> arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower
> than namas but still incredibly fast.
> __________________> 
> > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> > intricate workings
> > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no
> > longer be
> > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> > phenomena that are
> > not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> > un-conditioned)....can something
> > other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
> __________
> There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
> Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study
> the others too.
>  This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
> is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear
> that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to
> arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha
> would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to
> fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this
> fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would
> love to know more about this topic)
> 
> 
> Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will
> add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
> By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs
> non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
> think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). 
> Robert
> 

 
 
2404 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (correction) If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Sorry, made another error.

> > know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
> > objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always
> partly
> > conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in
> the
> > past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
________________
2nd line should read:SEEING is always partly conditioned by
prior kamma. (not visible object)
robert


> > Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction.
> According
> > to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result
> until
> > a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result
> because
> > the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide.
> See
> > further below.
> > --- Bruce  wrote: > hi dhd
> > > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> > > discussions, as the
> > > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the
> futility of
> > >  these
> > > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying
> to
> > > figure out
> > > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> > > phenomena", trying to
> > > quantify the world outside experiential reality...
> > ____________
> > I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university
> in
> > thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
> > things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist
> knowledge
> > has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that
> way
> > to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika,
> both
> > suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove.
> For
> > instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta
> Brahmas,
> > the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even
> if
> > we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
> > exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However,
> it
> > was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana
> we
> > might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do
> some
> > of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas
> and
> > brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
> > majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find
> it
> > useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide
> variety
> > of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
> > animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These
> are
> > states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
> > Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
> > detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too.
> It
> > seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
> > bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be
> other
> > planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't
> stop
> > me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to
> Brahmas or
> > devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be
> a
> > rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't
> say it
> > is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
> > thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I
> am
> > simply gullible.  Either way the jatakas have a wealth of
> useful
> > stories that apply to our lives.
> > The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard
> throughout
> > the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
> > that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
> > least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
> > astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make
> such
> > things possible what could a being who was able to
> distinguish
> > and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
> > doesn't surprise me.
> > ____________> 
> > > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> > > reality?
> > > 
> > > you wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five
> aggregates
> > > sitting 
> > > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the
> tree
> > > and the rupa 
> > > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to
> akusala-vipaka.
> > > The 
> > > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree
> over
> > > and the 
> > > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to
> the
> > > tree 
> > > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> > > COLLISION was not 
> > > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The
> akusala-vipaka
> > > arose from 
> > > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> > > just happened 
> > > > to ripen then.
> > > > 
> > > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus
> of
> > > the 
> > > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from
> the
> > > natural, 
> > > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we"
> study
> > > so much in 
> > > > our everyday lives.
> > > 
> > > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> > > back....leaving
> > > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not
> caused
> > > by kamma, i
> > > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> > > kamma? i ask
> > > because i've been operating under the assumption that all
> rupa
> > > are
> > > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other
> wind
> > > -- is in
> > > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> > > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
> > 
> > __________________
> > There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
> > actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu
> (temperature)
> > and ahara (nutrition).
> > All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
> > inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi,
> hardness),
> > (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension):
> and
> > vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in
> a
> > massive range of intensity and so we get  much variety in
> flora,
> > in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
> > conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature.
> Utu
> > is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
> > considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
> > never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of
> exceptions
> > to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
> > inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there
> good
> > kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the
> wheel
> > arises due to his good kamma.
> > 
> > __________
> > > 
> > > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> > > phenomena" you
> > > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are
> brought
> > > into being by
> > > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in
> this
> > > manner? i'm
> > > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your
> last
> > > sentence
> > > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> > > that's the case
> > > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> > > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately
> fall
> > > away dependent
> > > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
> > -----------------
> > No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by
> kamma.
> > All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching,
> smelling,
> > is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
> > factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma.  You are
> > entirely correct though that all physical and mental
> phenomena
> > arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly
> slower
> > than namas but still incredibly fast.
> > __________________> 
> > > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> > > intricate workings
> > > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would
> no
> > > longer be
> > > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> > > phenomena that are
> > > not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> > > un-conditioned)....can something
> > > other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
> > __________
> > There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
> > Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to
> study
> > the others too.
> >  This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something
> that
> > is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is
> clear
> > that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just
> to
> > arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the
> atthakattha
> > would give more details. But what they do give us is enough
> to
> > fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect
> this
> > fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I
> would
> > love to know more about this topic)
> > 
> > 
> > Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully
> will
> > add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
> > By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting
> vs
> > non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
> > think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). 
> > Robert
> > 


 
2405 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 10:02pm
Subject: List Bulletin - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear All

Some members have mentioned that the volume of mail
being generated by our list is playing havoc with
their inbox.

Here are some ways of dealing with this embarrassment
of riches (you may like to print this page out and
keep it for reference)-

1)  Choose to receive the mail from the list in
‘Digest’ form.  This means that you receive just one
email message containing many separate postings,
making it very easy to scroll through and read just
the messages that interest you most.  See the
instructions below for going to the eGroups website
and changing your delivery options.

2)  Choose not to receive any email messages but to
read messages by going to the list’s Web site.  See
the instructions below for going to the eGroups
website and changing your delivery options.

3)  Set up Filters in your existing email program so
that all the mail from this list goes into its own
folder.  This will keep it from getting mixed in with
your other messages.

4)  Open a web-based (ie free) email account specially
to receive messages from this list.  This is very easy
to do – see instructions below.  Having done that,
send a (blank) message from the new address to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182252013035049209110050229241215252  This will
join you to the list under your new address.  Then
send a (blank) message to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024193234193105034158254228105220182126137091252086039147035038070085168 from your old
email address to unsubscribe there.

Whatever your choice, there’s no need to unsubscribe!

Happy reading

Jonothan & Sarah
(List Moderators)

=============================================
How to change your Delivery Options at the eGroups
website
You have a choice here: 
A – FROM THE ‘MY GROUPS’ PAGE
1)  Go the eGroups home page at http://www.egroups.com/
.  (If you have not been to the eGroups website
before, you may need to register by giving your email
address and a password.)
2)  Click on the ‘My Groups’ tab.
3)  In the My Groups page you should see a list of the
groups to which you belong and, on the right hand
side, the heading ‘Delivery Options’.  You will see a
box with your current option showing (eg ‘Individual
Emails’)
4)  Click on the arrows and choose one of the other
options.
5)  Click on the ‘Save Changes’ box.

B - FROM THE MEMBERSHIP PAGE
1)  Go to the list’s home page at
http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup.  (If
you have not been to the eGroups website before, you
may need to register by giving your email address and
a password.)
2)  On the right-hand side of the window you should
see the heading ‘Membership’ and underneath a link
which says ‘Modify’.
3)  Click on ‘Modify’ and you will find yourself in
the ‘Membership Options’ page.  
4)  Under the heading ‘Message Delivery’ there are 3
buttons (Individual email messages, Daily digest and
Reading messages at the web site).  Click the button
of you choice.

=========================================
Opening a free email account
In our experience, Yahoo works much better than
Hotmail (quicker response, less junk mail), especially
since Yahoo took over eGroups.
Go to http://mail.yahoo.com/ or http://www.hotmail.com/ 
and follow the prompts for new users to sign up.  




 
2406 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:56am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions

 
  Hello Robert and dh5,

Sorry, I'll be more specific. I rushed that last response through.
I was referring more to some secondary sources I've read. I need to
track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.

I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words 
that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a
way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite
Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the present".

So maybe it is not the comments at all, but my own faults.

I am still at a stage of contemplating that which encapsulates where
I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just trying to establish
what is best for me at present.

Thanks for your patience, Jody.

 
2407 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:43am
Subject: Re: Re : Questions

 
  > I need to
> track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
> by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.

Dear Jody,

As Betty once wrote, modern science studies the 'rupa' parts of the 
world, although so far they have never been able to disprove 
anything in the Buddha's teachings.  Astronomers only recently had 
instuments powerful enough to capture visual 'evidences' of other 
planetary systems, impossible according to Christian teachings, for 
example, since for them the earth is the center of the universe, 
long since proven wrong by modern science since the sun does not 
revolve around the earth as said in the Bible.  The Buddha, however, 
spoke of hundreds of thousands of galaxies and other worlds 2500+ 
years before humans were able to bring them into view.

 
> I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words 
> that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a
> way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
> power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite
> Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the 
present".


As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, anything is welcome as 
topic of discussion as long as it concerns the dhamma, and as 
everything that exists and is real is the dhamma, even western 
discourses and sciences are patterns of thoughts and therefore 
concepts in patterns as remembered by the sanna or memory, all could 
be discussed and analysed logically as objects of the mind dvara.  
According to Buddhist analysis, they are conventional realities that 
could only be experienced through the mind, while other realities 
could appear through the eye, such as the sight and color and light 
of the computer and other objects appearing as visible objects at 
this very moment, as well as the seeing, which lead us to believing 
that we are seeing and hearing and touching even now.  

We could only gradually accumulate knowledge of their specific
characteristics to add to our knowledge of the dhamma as they really 
are, to attenuate our ignorance through the study of realities that 
appear at each moment.  When they have fallen away without our 
awareness, it is too late to do so and they never return again in the 
exact same way with their particular characteristics.  Here even 
modern physics will tell you that the atoms have evolved, the 
protrons and neutrons have revolved countless times with each 
passing split second.  Yet the Buddha tells us that the nama is 17 
times faster than the rupa so I doubt any man-made machine could 
ever capture it to measure it, besides, it is without any shape of 
form whatever, so it could never be measured in any 'scientific' way.

That the Buddha was able to penetrate such dhamma is the wonder of 
his wisdom, and that he found the way to end the ceaseless rounds of 
samsara by ending ignorance about realities is a marvel beyond any 
scientific discovery, or any miracle in the universe to me.  

Amara

 
2408 From:  
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 0:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear Jonathan and Sarah,

I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!

I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm


:o)


rgds

 
2409 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 1:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear Gayan,

No one is complaining, but some people find the mail
too overwhelming in their mailbox and feel they need
to delist as a result. We're just trying to give
advice about ways the mail can be better organised to
avoid this.....

so glad you're finding the list so helpful as are we!

Sarah

---  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> Dear Jonathan and Sarah,
> 
> I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!
> 
> I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm
> 
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> rgds
> 



 
2410 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:04pm
Subject: Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Mike,

I'm following along yr response to Jonothan's summary:

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> I've thought about this too--listening to recordings
> is more like reading.  It's surely the result of
> good
> past kamma to be where you can hear Buddhadhamma
> from
> someone who can tell if you're 'getting' it or not. 
> This list acts in that way, to some extent, don't
> you
> think?

Definitely, it's proving very useful for us all.

> This again is perfectly pertinent to our
> discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name,
> pariyatti, as this hadn't come up.  The distinction
> (and the failure to distinguish) between these two
> also adds a dimension to the discussion.  Though
> still
> most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in
> regard to both?

Even when we're talking about pariyatti (rt intell
und.) it's essential to remember the citta must be
kusala. A child can repeat that seeing sees visible
object and it's not self etc or we can recite all the
cetasikas by rote. It is not pariyatti if it is not
kusala and that's a big proviso! So the study always
needs to come back to this moment and to knowing the
reality appearing now. Even in a dhamma discussion or
reading a Sutta, there are bound to be many more
moments of akusala than kusala I find. What we read or
consider is just in order to understand realities
better at this moment (patipada). Otherwise it's just
academic study. Khun Sujin reminded us that only the
direct understanding will be accumulted at the end of
this lifetime. All the intellectual understanding and
academic knowledge will be lost.

> Thanks, very useful.  So the danger isn't in
> conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by
> tanha, ditthi and/or mana?  Or any other akusala, I
> suppose...

The danger is in thinking accompanied by wrong view
(ditthi) in particular. But it's not a matter of
trying to have less akusala thinking as this just
shows the strong clinging to self. There's no need to
be afraid of it, but just develop more understanding
of all realities.
>  
> -  The fact that things still appear as
> > conceptualised
> > objects does not mean that there is or can be no
> > awareness of seeing or visible object.
> 
> Simultaneously?  So is this pariyatti?  Awareness
> with
> concept?  Of concept?

Different moments! Remember the awareness darting in
between the concepts to be aware of the reality,
visible object in this example.

You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels of
sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote.
Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
from killing for example), there is sati at the level
of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
object. There is giving to a person, though there is
no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no
understanding of the value of giving at that moment
either, so although the wholesome cittas are
accumulated they are not developed. Is that confusing?

At the level of samatha, there is also sati and in
this case, even though the object is a concept, there
is understanding at this level and thus the value of
samatha is known for a moment and developed. For
example, there may be metta now which is directed to a
person (concept) and understood. There is still no
awareness of realities and thus satipatthana cannot be
developed.

At the level of satipatthana (here I'm talking about
the development of right awareness of realities in
order that the eightfold path may be developed), sati
must be aware over and over and over again of namas as
namas and rupas as rupas so there is no confusion
about  what is experiencing and what is experienced.
So now, seeing is nama. It is the reality which is
experiencing visible object, no self in it. Awareness
begins to be aware of it so that understanding can
develop. At the moment awareness is aware, it is very
ordinary. There are no bright lights or fears or
sudden revelations. The reality is just as it is now.
Nothing special. Then there is another reality and
another. If we cling to sati or wish to have more or
wonder how to develop it now, again it shows the
clinging to self. No awareness. 

Visible object is the reality which is seen now. Again
when awareness is aware of it, it's very ordinary. As
awareness and understanding develop (together) they
'penetrate' the reality appearing more precisely and
begin to understand how anatta it is at this moment.
Anatta is not something different from the seeing and
visible object appearing now. The nature of these
realities is anatta. No sudden revelations or special
experiences. As Robert has pointed out, we don't have
to concern ourselves with nibbana and higher levels of
insight when there is so little awareness and
understanding of the realities appearing now. Being
aware of namas and rupas now and beginning to
understanding the difference between them when they
appear is the patipada (practice), whether we are
celebrating Xmas with our families, sitting in a
meditation centre or teaching students as I'm about to
be!
 
So in between the countless moments of akusala citta
arising in a day, there are moments of kusala of
different kinds with different levels of sati
accompanying them.

I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to
hearing from you or anyone else.

Sarah

p.s. re Kom's and our confusion over yr off-list reply
to Robert- seems like the message is you'd better put
these on list for us all to share from the outset! We
don't mind if they're long-winded at all.

pps. I promise to return to the monk's life in my next
post.




 
2411 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 6:33pm
Subject: Re:Questions

 
  Jody wrote:
"I need to
track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.
I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying
words 
that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was
a
way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my
favourite
Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of
the present"."
_______
Thanks jody, looking forward to any western influences you can
find in the archives.
Science is a powerful way of discerning some aspects of our
world but we need to guard against viewing buddhist ideas
through the cultural glasses of our age. Joe cummings, on this
list, wrote some interesting letters on triple gem about this,
hopefully he will pick up this thread.
Robert 




 
2412 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka,

The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was
trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was
thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was
where it was....I need to learn Mike's search
techniques....

Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
situation or the place or time. At this moment there
can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other
realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no
meditation centre. 

On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on
the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was
clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy,
crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
In other words whenever we are showing preferences to
situations, it shows the importance we attach to
ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.

Thanks Robert.

Sarah


> 
> ---  wrote: 
> MIKE: > You're right, but MUCH more difficult,
> living in the
> world. 
> > The 
> > influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR
> more
> > pervasive.
> > 
> > DASOKA:You will not afraid of these if you have
> enough
> confidence in
> > you and 
> > the dhamma you've insighted.
> 
ROBERT wrote:> I think this is difficult to comprehend
but true. We
> know the
> laylife is one of dust and busyness but insight can
> develop at
> any time, even while we are busy.....

> The Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.63
> Migajala Sutta
> Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on
> arrival, having
> bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was
> sitting there he
> said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A
> person
> living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent,
> lord, is one a
> person living alone, and to what extent is one a
> person living
> with a companion?" 
> "Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye --
> agreeable,
> pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire,
> enticing -- and
> a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them.
> As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them,
> delight arises. There being delight, he is
> impassioned. Being
> impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the
> fetter of
> delight is said to be a person living with a
> companion.
>  
> ......and a monk does not relish them, welcome them,
> or remain
> fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome
> them, or
> remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being
> no delight,
> he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is
> not
> fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of
> delight is said to
> be a person living alone. 
> 
> "A person living in this way -- even if he lives
> near a village,
> associating with monks & nuns, with male & female
> lay followers,
> with king & royal ministers, with sectarians & their
> disciples
> -- is still said to be living alone. A person living
> alone is
> said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is
> his
> companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he
> is said to
> be a person living alone." 
> Robert
> 
> 



 
2413 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear sarah,
Of course I agree that the situation is only concept and that we
should understand that dhammas are only dhammas wherever and
whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where the Buddha
said such things as "I have given you the roots of trees..
meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along those lines.
And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open compared to
the dusty closed in life of a layperson. 
Robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > Dear
Robert, Mike & Dasoka,
> 
> The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
> sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was
> trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was
> thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was
> where it was....I need to learn Mike's search
> techniques....
> 
> Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
> situation or the place or time. At this moment there
> can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other
> realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no
> meditation centre. 
> 
> On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on
> the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was
> clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy,
> crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
> In other words whenever we are showing preferences to
> situations, it shows the importance we attach to
> ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
> alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.
> 
> Thanks Robert.
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 



 
2414 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Taking robes

 
  Dear Mike,

As I mentioned, with a prompt from Amara, I raised
many of your comments on this topic (in Bkk) with
K.Sujin, Nina and Jonothan and will be keeping these
in mind as I try to respond to your post. 

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
Sarah wrote
> > Nothing wrong in
> > any
> > of this and not an indicator at all of any level
> of
> > kusala or akusala, but just an indicator of
> > accumulations which are not affected by taking
> > robes.

The point of this was to show that even after many
years as a monk, the accumulations don't change. Khun
Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to
live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal,
then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One needs
to know one's accumulations very well indeed.

> 
> No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) will
> affect past accumulations.  However, new
> accumulations
> after one has begun observing the 226 precepts will
> certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> vipaka--right?

Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana
will protect one from (performing)  akusala
kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds). Like now, one can
try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a
sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever the
situation.
K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules? Aren't
5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed out
that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226
precepts too and A.Cha's article which someone kindly
highlighted was a good reminder of this. The friend we
mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled
to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because he
found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at
his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri
Lanka to take robes again correctly. 
> 
> > I might make similar comments with regard to your
> > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > life....isn't this thinking? 
> 
> To be sure!  And I'm not actually complaining about
> these things.  In fact, I have a great job, good
> friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> thing.  I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> Alan was, in my own way.  More to the point, 

So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if
we stay as a monk for this life, what about next life?

> 
> > What about awareness
> > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > conversations,
> > doing boring work etc...realities which are just
> as
> > real at these times!
> 
> Of course!  And by the way, a monk's life is just as
> full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's. 
> Contrary
> to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe
> that
> simply living the 'holy life' does much of anything
> to
> eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way of
> expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.

Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's
life...many duties and obligations and listening to
dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no
possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to follow
dhamma!..... When we had our discussion on this theme
we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina pointed
out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have
attended that day.  

> This
> brings me back to my other (rather unclearly stated)
> motives:  That it's a great job that needs to be
> done,

Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the most
important job to be done. Being aware and
understanding reality now is more important than any
idea of a particular lifestyle. K.Sujin asked why we
are so attached to the yellow cloth? This is not to
say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha as
preserver of the Teachings through the ages. 

> and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> kamma-pathas.  

superficially if at all....Jonothan gave the example
of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does nothing
to eradiacate the real problem.

By the way, as Robert pointed out in
> a
> recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything we
> want to do.  I realize that this intention is
> conditioned almost entirely by the three unwholesome
> roots.  That's the way it has to be and, I assume,
> has
> been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since
> the
> days of the arahats.  However, I don't think that
> this
> is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do you? 
> If I waited until my motives were completely pure, I
> would never have performed any act of dana, sila or
> bhavana.

Well, different moments and different cittas as usual.
i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve the
Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing more
understanding. These you are doing now with your
excellent contributions here.   
>  
> 
> I'll consider this--hard to convert a personal
> conversation into a general discussion.  However, do
> please feel free to post any of this you'd like to
> get
> something going.
>  
Well, actually you have posted it to the list and pls
keep up yr responses to the list. I hope Jonothan &
Jaran who were present during the discussion on the
topic will chip in with extra points I've overlooked.
it was actually quite a lengthy discussion. 

Btw when the tapes are organised, you may wish to
order this one which was on Dec 11th (afternoon
session) at Elle's house.

> Talk to you soon, and, welcome back?
Yes, back into the swing & actually happy (w/lobha) to
be back to my routine!
> 
Sarah




 
2415 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Dear
sarah,
> Of course I agree that the situation is only concept
> and that we
> should understand that dhammas are only dhammas
> wherever and
> whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where
> the Buddha
> said such things as "I have given you the roots of
> trees..
> meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along
> those lines.
> And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open
> compared to
> the dusty closed in life of a layperson. 
> Robert


As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at
the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the
tree, develop understanding....

Yes the monk's life of the one aspiring to arahatship
(with the right accumulations to do so) is wide open
and truly wonderful as compared to our daily lives,
cluttered with kilesa.....One point is, can anyone
really aspire to arahatship today in this life?

As I mentioned in my post just sent, I hope Jonothan &
Jaran will add comments from their understanding too.
I'm not an expert here at all...! (Not that I am
anywhere else either...)

Thanks agin,
Sarah





 
2416 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:24pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions

 
  Dear Jody,

It's good to see you so active on this list.

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: >  
> I am still at a stage of contemplating that which
> encapsulates where
> I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just
> trying to establish
> what is best for me at present.
> 
I originally trained as a psychologist, but when I
started studying Buddhism and in particular,
abhidhamma, I found it most helpful to approach it as
an entirely new subject, one that could be checked out
at this moment. If you try to relate it to other
theories and subjects which are theoretical constructs
only, it will be very confusing.

May I suggest that what is best for all of us at
present is to understand more about the present
realities, to study and know the difference between
concepts and realities. The many excellent posts on
this subject in recent days can help to clarify what
is real and what is mere delusion! 

look f/w to hearing more.

Sarah


 
2417 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 11:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear sarah,
see my comments below:
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: >
Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote: > Dear
> sarah,
> >  there are quite a few suttas where
> > the Buddha
> > said such things as "I have given you the roots of
> > trees..
> > meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along
> > those lines.
> > And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open
> > compared to
> > the dusty closed in life of a layperson. 
> > Robert
> 
> 
> As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at
> the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the
> tree, develop understanding....
> 

actually I was just thinking about that yesterday. the buddha in
the vinaya told the monks that the home they should expect was
no better than the roots of trees! (But he allowed more
comfortable quarters if these were offered). So exactly right -
bhavana wherever. Some people though do have more accumulations
to live alone and this can be  helpful for them - but always it
is right view that is foremost. funnily enough i used to dislike
crowds, now I hardly notice the difference whether I'm walking
through shinjuku station (tokyo - 2million people a day) or up
on Mt aso, (barren).  





 
2418 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:48am
Subject: 'Paccaya' in 'advanced'

 
  Dear friends,

We have uploaded the booklet 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, as usual there are 
bound to be mistakes and such, so we would appreciate any corrections 
very much,

Amara

 
 
2419 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Dan,

Please excuse the lateness of this reply--trying to
catch up:

---  wrote:

> When the realization of the dissolution and
> slipperiness of the 
> aggregates and the lack of control over the spinning
> of samsara 
> becomes clear to the meditator, "anatta" may be
> presented to the mind 
> in a mundane flash of insight. Before the mind can
> think: "Oh, look! 
> There was a flash of 'anatta'", a sensation of fear
> may naturally 
> arise. In this context, the 'fear' does not present
> itself like the 
> ordinary fear associated with, say, hearing the
> sound of a tree branch 
> cracking just before it crushes the legs. It is more
> like fear just 
> being presented to the mind as an object, an object
> like so many 
> others that are presented, but in the presentation
> it becomes clear 
> that the attachment to Self is strong, that fear is
> one tool that the 
> Self-notion uses to preserve itself, and that
> contemplating detachedly 
> the natural fear that arises with insight into
> anatta is a powerful 
> weapon to wield against that fear and against the
> Self-notion.

As far as I know, fear (as a form of dosa and so a
paramattha dhamma) can certainly be the object of even
profound insight.  I just wanted to comment on this
because it reminded me of something much more mundane
that I've noticed myself.  When I've explained a
little buddhadhamma to my non-buddhist friends, it's
always the smartest ones who react most quickly and
with the strongest aversion.  I think this is because
those with the quickest intuition realize suddenly the
extent to which everything they've ever believed in is
called into question.  What is it that gives values to
mundane life?  Just attachment, aversion and
identification with them.  All the 'good' values of
the world are like this:  "I love freedom and hate
tyranny, love justice and hate injustice, love
kindness and hate cruelty, love generosity and hate
greed, love love and hate hatred..." etc., etc.  So,
maybe I'm not talking about the same thing you were,
but maybe there's some common ground.  The fear I'm
talking about is the well-justified fear of loss of
identity and moral 'rightness'--and it seems to work
strongly against the arising of understanding in the
uninstructed.  

> In 
> instances like these, some questions that come up
> might be: Is fear 
> unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear
> presents itself to the 
> mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and
> adhitana), it seems to 
> me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant
> feeling or even fear 
> when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a
> reliable indication 
> that the practice has gone astray.

I don't mean argue with your point here, though I'm
not sure I understand it.  I think of fear as just
aversion toward an idea of some future
unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with
domanassa.  The only forms of aversion I can remember
the Buddha commending were shame and fear with regard
to misconduct, for example in the Maha-Parinibbana
Sutta:
"The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not
their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they shall have
faith, so long as they have moral shame and fear of
misconduct, are proficient in learning, resolute,
mindful, and wise."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html  


> [Please be patient with my mangling of technical
> terms. I'm here to 
> learn about the proper words to put on "ideas". Help
> in this regard 
> would be greatly appreciated.]

Hope I don't seem gratuitously argumentative or
critical--ust a train of thought triggered by your own
observations.  If I've misunderstood you, my
apologies--I'll be grateful for any
clarifications...mike
 



 
2420 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> refined lobha comes with rather
> refined pleasant
> feeling (but still coarse compared to that with
> kusala) so is
> hard to distinguish. It needs ever more study and
> care and panna
> to do so.

I think this is an always-timely caution--thanks...mike


 
2421 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions

 
  Dear Jody,

My apologies for the tardy response:

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote:
>  
> Dear Robert, Mike, dh5, and amara,
> 
> Thank you for the excellent responses! It wasen't so
> much
> the teachings of the Lord Buddha I questioned, but
> some of the
> interpretations and accompanying elaborations that
> I've come across.
> 
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of
> Western knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and,
> biochemistry. These seem to be
> mental constructs that many may be assuming as
> discovering
> characteristics
> of nama and rupa that were not accounted for during
> the time of the
> Buddha.

I've run across a lot of this too.  So far, though
I've seen some tempting arguments, I haven't found
anything in scientific perspective that seems to
improve understanding of dhamma.  Usually it seems to
me to be an attempt, at best, to create a hybrid of
the two--reducing or obscuring the dhamma by just the
amount of the admixture of the other.  
 
> I have no doubt that the Dhamma provides a means to
> nibbaana. That
> there are three characteristics to existence,
> dukkha, anicca, and antta.
> That the middle way will lead to salvation. I
> believe in kamma. etc.

Glad we're in agreement!
 
> I just wonder sometimes that some engage in
> intellectualizing the
> Dhamma with the so-called advanced answers of the
> present.

Even when it seems like this--complex investigations
of mental factors and all that sort of thing--which is
really more intellectualized--analysis of the nature
of the immediate, or reference to the seemingly
simpler world of concepts?  I think the latter.  

Hope I don't seem to be nit-picking or trying to argue
with you, and that you can find something of value in
this reply...mike


 
2422 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Hullo, Bruce!

Pardon the late reply,

--- Bruce  wrote:

> i've been operating under the assumption
> that all rupa are
> conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any
> other wind -- is in
> itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!

If I understand this correctly, rupa can be
conditioned by kamma, heat, nutrition or citta--or
various combinations of the above.  I think it's only
rupa that is (re)born that is conditioned by
kamma--I'm not sure about this, I'm only just reading
about it now.  I'm sure you'll get MUCH
better-informed responses.

For what it's worth...mike 


 
2423 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear Gayan,

I'm enjoying the swim, too!  Nice to hear from
you...mike

---  wrote:
> Dear Jonathan and Sarah,
> 
> I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!
> 
> I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm
> 
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> rgds
> 


 
2424 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to
hearing from you or anyone else.

There certainly is a great deal!  I look forward to
responding, but it may not be possible for a couple of
days.

Thanks for the excellent reply...mike



 
2425 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Mike,

I just want to make a correction to the para below
before you take it up..  It was a little confusing to
me at least...esp. when I just re-read it. The
correction is about the understanding in the last
sentence, not about the sati. Apologies again for
posting late without checking! S. 

> You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels
> of
> sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote.
> Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
> citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
> from killing for example), there is sati at the
> level
> of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
> these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
> object. There is giving to a person, though there is
> no wrong view at the moment of giving. There may or
>may not be    
> understanding of the value of giving at that moment,
>so although the wholesome cittas are
> accumulated they may or may not be developed with
>understanding of the value of kusala. This is
>different from the two kinds of bhavana (mental
>development) discussed below which must be
accompanied >by rt understanding.
> 
> 



 
2426 From:  
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were
arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
many times in previous buddhasasanas.

Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be
discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person'
towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future.

The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those
accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may
not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present.

Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over
uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed
there.



Rgds.

 
2427 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:50pm
Subject: 'Abhidhamma ch.2' + corrections of ch.1

 
  Dear All,

Sorry for the mistakes in 'Abhidhamma ch.1', corrections and 2nd 
installment up today...advanced section,  
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Amara

 
2428 From:  
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were
arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
many times in previous buddhasasanas.

Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be
discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person'
towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future.

The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those
accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may
not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present.

Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over
uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed
there.



Rgds.

 
2429 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 7:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:
> Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka,
> 
> The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
> sutta of all...to me it says it all. 

Yes, this is a great one and I certainly do agree with
you all.

> I need to learn Mike's search
> techniques....

Not much to it, Sarah--remind me and we'll talk
off-list.
 
> Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
> situation or the place or time. At this moment there
> can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the
> other
> realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds,
> no
> meditation centre. 

True, of course.
 
> On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen
> on
> the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this
> was
> clinging to self. 

If I understand this right, she's referring to
clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'?  Wasn't
it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a
table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi?  Or was it Khun
Sujin?  Or did I misunderstand this altogether?

> I prefer not to go into noisy,
> crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
> In other words whenever we are showing preferences
> to
> situations, it shows the importance we attach to
> ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
> alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.

True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS
conditioned, in part, by your having been in the
situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma
countless times in the past.  I had a brief 'debate'
with a very venerable monk once who held that the
Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns.  The Buddha
certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently
spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other
secluded places.  True, he was recommending these
specifically to monks and also true that many, many
householders attained nibbana while presumably living
'enjoying the pleasures of the five
sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in town. 


Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence from
the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently
and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the
assumption that listeners of the present age are
beyond benefitting them.  How how many of us, living
completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on
contention for the things of the world, completely
surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements
to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living
alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala Sutta?
 Not many, I think, and I think the Buddha expressed
this same idea each time he repeated the expression,
"...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go
forth from home into homelessness...".  His praise of
'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only to
specific individuals, it was quite general and very
frequent.  He usually seemed to be simply referring to
this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca: 
"...A householder or householder's son, hearing the
Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and
reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path.
The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not
easy living at home to practice the holy life totally
perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if
I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre
robes, and go forth from the household life into
homelessness?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html

I think the most persuasive argument against ordaining
now is the deteriorated states of both the
bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general.  It may
be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome enough
at this late date for benefit to be derived from
ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven knows
mine are no prize!).  Once again, though, in the
absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that
'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that, in
general, it's a good thing to do.

All of that said, I must tell you how much I
appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments. 
They continue to condition investigation of the many
motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is
very useful.

Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back!

mike


 
2430 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 0:02pm
Subject: Michael J says bye for now

 
  Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and others

With respect and good will to you all,  I would like to wind down my
participation in the list with a few more contributions that atttempt to
tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old.

On 25 Nov. Michael J was responding to e-mails from Sarah, Amara and Robert
among others:

>I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will eventually
>answer those questions asked by Robert and Amara at a
>later date. Please stand by for a few days or a week.

Robert
I am unable to write my essay on meditation right now and may not be able to
do so for a while. Sorry if this sounds like a weak lame cop out etc. During
the past 3 weeks my focus has shifted away from the list while I have been
distracted by WFB/WBU work and personal matters. I also have to focus more
on my PhD research too.

I went to the World Fellowship of Buddhists H.Q. in Bangkok to use their
library hoping they would have a collection of PTS Tipitaka volumes in
English (not available) for me to research the essay that I had promised to
write about meditation etc. Then I met the Secretary General of the WFB and
he asked me to help out with the conference and the World Buddhist
University inauguration etc. I agreed to help but didn't realise what I was
getting into. It took over my life from then until about 17 Dec. I am still
tired. I have finally finished the work and feel able to say enough is
enough. So in a way the messages on this list were part of the conditions
that led me to go to the WFB. If anyone is interested you can visit the
website http://www.wb-university.org/

I don't like not keeping my promise. So I am asking for an open extension on
the assignment? It may take me much longer to respond than I originally
anticipated.

Sukin
Thanks for being a dear friend in the Dhamma. I shall continue to see you
while in Bangkok and communicate via e-mail.

Mike N.
Thank you for your good will and gentle contributions to the e-mail list.

Alex Tran
I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3 years or more
ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I know how
it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss
contribute to deeper understanding and compassion.

Khun Amara
Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't
communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not to
respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we would
only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another.

Sarah and Johnothan
I re-read Sarah's e-mail of
   Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:54:17 -0000
   From: "Jonothan & Sarah Abbott" 
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

I hope you don't mind if I just leave it at that and don't take up the
discussion from there. I am not as lucid or articulate now as I was 3-4
weeks ago. I need to reserve my energy for the PhD research now.

I will just write that Sarah's response to my earlier postings on meditation
etc. was well put but that I am unable to personally benefit from it. I
think I need to meditate, study and then write the essay I have promised
(not necessarily in that order or seperately etc.). Until then I think I
would not benefit from active participation in either the list or the
English language discussion group. I am aware that some people think this is
a marvelous opportunity. But I am not ready for it so I have to leave for
now.

Everyone
Thank you all for your patience with my badly written long-winded
contributions. I may return in the future - some of us will see what
happens.

May the new year bring everyone happiness, peace, health, prosperity,
wisdom, faith, and the 37 Bodhipakkhiyadhamma (enlightenment factors) in
perfect harmony.

sincerely

Michael J

 
2431 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now

 
  Dear Michael,
thanks for the very nice letter. I was looking forwrd to your
replies sooner than later, but anytime is fine. Hope to see you
back sometime in the future.
Good luck on your phd. 
Best wishes
Robert
--- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > Dear
Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara
> and others
> 
> With respect and good will to you all,  I would like to wind
> down my
> participation in the list with a few more contributions that
> atttempt to
> tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old.
> 
> 


 
2432  
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now

 
  ---  "Michael J Jackson" wrote:
> Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and 
others
> Alex Tran
> I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3 
years or more
> ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I 
know how
> it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss
> contribute to deeper understanding and compassion.

Dear Michael J.,

   I remember you, too.  Your posts in those lists were always 
excellent.  Thank you for your thoughtful condolences.  The loss of a 
parent is always great no matter how "prepared" we are.

   I'm looking forward to read more from you in the other lists.

With Metta,
Alex Tran

 
2433 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:29pm
Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now

 
  > Khun Amara
> Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't
> communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not 
to
> respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we 
would
> only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another.


Dear Michael J.,

I'm sorry you feel that way, I could only hope we might understand 
each other better next time, should you decide to communicate with me 
again.  In the meantime I wish you all the best especially in your 
studies and all other matters, (I still think you should get enough 
rest and recuperation, especially after such hard work at the 
conference and everything.)  By the way I think the foundation 
library hold some sets of the books you are looking for, if you 
called them up someone might be able to tell you.

I hope you will send us the good news when you receive your doctorate 
degree, at least, and anumodana for all the kusala you have done,

Amara

 
 
2434 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 0:13am
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear Robert and Bruce,

Robert wrote:
>  This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
> is not given much attention in the texts. 
Mind and it's interaction with matter is the province of 
Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical phenomena is the 
province of science.

 
2435 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 5:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear dhd (or Dan if we may..).

I've been catching up with your posts with
interest...I'm so glad you and Bruce have joined us
with your interest in Abhidhamma.

Realities which can be experienced directly at this
moment are the province of Buddha-dhamma...In other
words the practice now of knowing (with panna) what is
experiencing and what is experienced over and over
again, in order that right understanding can develop
and eventually eradicate defilements. 


While we can talk about and consider and speculate
about the complex conditions for the arising of other
phenomena (namas and rupas not being experienced) in
either scientific or non-scientific language it will
at best be interesting theory and speculation as you
have pointed out.... 

Nothing wrong with this at all, but the abhidhamma
details we study should be integrated with the
'practice' of bhavana or mental development at this
very moment. When the tree falls it is akusala vipaka
which is experienced through different doorways as you
have all pointed out....

Thanks for your line of enquiry,
Sarah

---  wrote: > Dear Robert and Bruce,
> 
> Robert wrote:
> >  This is not to say that the causes of mundane
> physical
> > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is
> something that
> > is not given much attention in the texts. 
> Mind and it's interaction with matter is the
> province of 
> Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical
> phenomena is the 
> province of science.
> 



 
2436 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 8:30pm
Subject: 'Abhidhamma' ch.3

 
  Dear all, 

Just to say that the third installment was uploaded today at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, intermediate section,

Amara

 
2437 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Gayan,

thanks for your consideration and comments on this
theme.

---  wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past
> lives the people who were
> arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
> One interesting fact is they have observed the
> sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
> many times in previous buddhasasanas.
> 
I'm sure the people on this list have also all been
monks in previous lives.  The question is whether it
is appropriate to become a monk now, in this life. The
arahats you mentioned no doubt lived many lives as lay
people and other beings too.


> Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very
> difficult, the aspirants must not be
> discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will
> certainly guide the 'person'
> towards the goal even it may not happen in the near
> future.
> 
Really?  Would you mind explaining this connection.

> The lay people may have more opportunities to study
> the dhamma, but those
> accumulations will give them the strength for
> renunciation in the future( may
> not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got
> the strength at present.

Living the monk's life properly is more a matter of
understanding than of 'strength', whatever you mean by
this.
> 
> Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of
> the birth in human plane over
> uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the
> holylife can be observed
> there.
> 
Yes for those for whom the monk's life really is
appropriate (see my post to Mike). 

Best rgds too,

Sarah



2438 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 6:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> If I understand this right, she's referring to
> clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'? 
> Wasn't
> it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a
> table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi?  Or was it
> Khun
> Sujin?  Or did I misunderstand this altogether?
> 
Just to clear up this point first...When we state our
preferences or cling to going left rather than right,
it is clinging to 'ourself', this very one we hold so
dear! This doesn't mean at all that there is wrong
view of self at these moments (although there might
be). Usually it's just clinging (to me)! While we were
away there was some discussion about 'mourning cittas'
on the list. I remember having it rightly pointed out
when I was rather distressed at Phra Dhammadharo's
funeral, that at these times we think the sadness is
for the loss of the other person, but in reality it's
just clinging to oneself....'my' loss of certain
sounds, sights, touches etc....

When we have the idea for a moment that I or a person
or a table or chair exists, it is sakkaya ditthi
(wrong view) at that moment. The concepts being
experienced are wrongly being taken for a reality.
You'll have heard this from KS, Nina and us all. It's
important to know the difference between moments of
clinging and moments of wrong view...

> 
> True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS
> conditioned, in part, by your having been in the
> situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma
> countless times in the past.  

Well, hearing and investigating now is certainly very
important ....in the beginning, middle and end..

I had a brief 'debate'
> with a very venerable monk once who held that the
> Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns.  The Buddha
> certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently
> spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other
> secluded places.  True, he was recommending these
> specifically to monks and also true that many, many
> householders attained nibbana while presumably
> living
> 'enjoying the pleasures of the five
> sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in
> town.

true and we need to be careful when reading suttas
where it seems the Buddha is praising secluded
places...Is he really and if so for whom and why? More
on this in a mo. 
> 
> 
> Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence
> from
> the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently
> and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the
> assumption that listeners of the present age are
> beyond benefitting them.  How how many of us, living
> completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on
> contention for the things of the world, completely
> surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements
> to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living
> alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala
> Sutta?

So yes, we need to look at the advice carefully and
with our little understanding of abhidhamma too. The
'living alone' is not a state or stage or practice to
be achieved as such. If just for a moment now, there
is awareness of one reality (let's say hardness)
appearing, then for a brief moment there is living
alone with hardness. All the busy, dusty world, all
those enticements and responsibilities do not exist.
Just the world through the bodysense appears and
exists at this moment. Gradually as more realities are
known, the meaning of living alone can be better
understood. Hardness in Hong Kong is no different from
hardness in Seattle and that harness is no different
from the hardness in the Thai forest! There is no easy
way or place to develop understanding.


>  Not many, I think,

AGREED....whatever the lifestyle

> and I think the Buddha expressed
> this same idea each time he repeated the expression,
> "...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go
> forth from home into homelessness...".  His praise
> of
> 'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only
> to
> specific individuals, it was quite general and very
> frequent.  He usually seemed to be simply referring
> to
> this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca:
> 
> "...A householder or householder's son, hearing the
> Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and
> reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty
> path.
> The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not
> easy living at home to practice the holy life
> totally
> perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What
> if
> I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the
> ochre
> robes, and go forth from the household life into
> homelessness?"
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html
> 
Mike, thanks for the handy ref as always. I'm just
reading the sutta as I type now. As always, there are
many ways a sutta can be read and understood. I can't
say my way is the right way, but this is what I
understand as I read it.

just after the part you quote above it says:

'When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by
the rules of the monastic code, seeing danger in the
slightest faults.  Consummate in his virtue, he guards
the doors of his senses, is possessed of mindfulness
and alertness, and is content...'

As you say, the Buddha is speaking generally and to my
knowledge about those who are well able to follow all
the rules with contentment, to guard the sense doors
and are destined to become arahats (even if not in the
immediate lifetime) and can live this life easily. As
we know, arahats have to leave the household life..no
conditions at all to follow it because of no
defilements.

Lohica himself attains all jhanas with all the pwers
and then becomes an arahat....The Buddha understood
his accumulations and knew his understanding was
'ripe' for this. It was not by chance that he lived at
this time, met the Buddha, offered food and heard the
Teachings....

I don't understand from this sutta that the Buddha is
urging everyone to follow this lifestyle or even to
look for a a secluded or quiet place. Even as samatha
practice begins to develop, it is not necessary at all
to be in a secluded place. 

> I think the most persuasive argument against
> ordaining
> now is the deteriorated states of both the
> bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general.  It
> may
> be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome
> enough
> at this late date for benefit to be derived from
> ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven
> knows
> mine are no prize!).  Once again, though, in the
> absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that
> 'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that,
> in
> general, it's a good thing to do.
> 
> All of that said, I must tell you how much I
> appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments. 
> They continue to condition investigation of the many
> motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is
> very useful.


Mike, please don't think I'm trying to say what is
best for you or anyone else...everyone will make their
'choices' according to conditions and their own
understanding anyway. 

The Lohicca Sutta is really an excellent one for us
all to consider in this regard and it's interesting as
Robert has pointed out, how differently suttas can be
read according to the understanding of the time.
> 
> Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back!

Thanks too... I'm glad to be back! Pls keep
questioning  anything I say....!! I'm learning as I go
along here...

Sarah



 
2439 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 4:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

> Mike N.
> Thank you for your good will and gentle
> contributions to the e-mail list.

It's been a pleasure corresponding with you, sir. 
Hope to hear from you again sometime!

mike


 
2440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 6:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life

 
  Dear Amara,

I'm really delighted to see all these great materials
going onto the website. 

I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in
Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more
impact on my thinking and understanding than any other
book before or since when I first came across it. In
fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in
1975 of totally changing my understanding of the
'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a
combination of conditions, but this was the necessary
'trigger'!)

Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a
manual typewriter. Now it's beautifully presented for
easy reading on your website. Congratulations!

I have always found Nina's letters to be very helpful
too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these
for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna.

Sarah

p.s. It was super to see you both recently.
Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL
with me....a priceless gift!

--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> Dear all,
> 
> We have just finished uploading the 1st chapter of
> Nina VG's 
> 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in the intermediate
> section of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Other chapters will
> be coming soon, 
> enjoy!  Pinna is also preparing more of her letters
> for us, in the 
> meantime the translation of 'Paccaya' has reached
> p.56 out of 72pp.  
> Anyone interested in the latter work in progress
> could please contact 
> me off list,
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2441 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life

 
  Dear Khun Amara and Sarah,

I just have to echo Sarah's comments.  

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> I'm really delighted to see all these great
> materials
> going onto the website. 
> 
> I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in
> Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more
> impact on my thinking and understanding than any
> other
> book before or since when I first came across it. 

Reading nearly every day now for 5? 6 weeks? and still
only to page 117--with a new (coarse, of course!)
insights in every chapter.

> In
> fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in
> 1975 of totally changing my understanding of the
> 'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a
> combination of conditions, but this was the
> necessary
> 'trigger'!)

Seems to've had the effect on you that meeting you all
has had on me...
 
> Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a
> manual typewriter. 

I hope you, or someone, has preserved that
manuscript...

> Now it's beautifully presented
> for
> easy reading on your website. Congratulations!

Ditto!
 
> I have always found Nina's letters to be very
> helpful
> too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these
> for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna.

Many thanks to you all.
 
> Sarah
 
> p.s. It was super to see you both recently.
> Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL
> with me....a priceless gift!

Identical thanks to Robert!
 
mike


 
2442 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 3:44am
Subject: Hello all

 
  Kia ora koutou (hello all),

I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha.
These are teachings of the Lord Buddha that are at my immediate
disposal. Having done so, I'll make some comments in its regards.
I believe this will be appropriate and productive for this forum,
rather then some of my other inquiries made so far.

The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited the
original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its purpose.
The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see
what other books Wisdom Publications have published.

Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the
serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as
sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start
any teachings translated into english would suffice. From
what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether
all teachings are in English.

I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can also
compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the 
the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote one static
reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to take daily accounts
of my experiences in meditation and study, as a means of introspection
and retrospection. I have tentatively started documenting thoughts
concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these realities to
samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be recommended? If
so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" study? 

That's all for now, metta to you all, Jody.

 
2443 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 8:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all

 
  DEar Jody,

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: > Kia ora
koutou (hello all),
> 
> I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the
> Buddha.
> The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited
> the
> original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its
> purpose.
> The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see
> what other books Wisdom Publications have published.

They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
wisdom. 
> 
> Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the
> serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as
> sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start
> any teachings translated into english would suffice. From
> what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether
> all teachings are in English.

Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).

> 
> I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
> an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can
> also
> compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
> One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the 
> the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
> whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote
> one static
> reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
> or to stop clinging. 

Vipassana is different from samattha.Why do you want to stop
"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking? very good
that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
but there are other aspects too.

Robert


 
2444 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 10:55am
Subject: emotions

 
  I wrote to some one who is in new to buddhism and thought others
might be interested. The person wondered what emotions were and
whether they were real, she commented that they seem to cahnge
like the weather.

Robert:When I say emotions are not imaginary this doesn't mean
they are stable either. In fact, they change blindingly fast -
much quicker than the weather. 
You are not Buddhist but that will not stop you from benefitting
from buddhism as the heart of Buddhism is actually a description
of things as they are. When I first met Buddhist teachings I
couldn't accept the idea of kamma and rebirth. Slowly I came to
see  that every moment is conditioned by various factors and
that while it is all changing so rapidly it is not happening at
random, that ethical laws(kamma) are just as real as the laws of
nature that science knows. We are so moved by emotion but if we
learn to see them directly as they are, and see them as anatta,
not self, they lose their power over us. 
One way to cope with emotions such as desire and anger is to
develop samattha meditation. This type of meditation, if
correctly developed, leads to calm and serenity and detachment
from objects of the 5senses. It was practised even before the
Buddha's time and has many benefits. Another way, the Buddha's
unique path, is to understand any dhammas (phenomena) as they
are and so detach from the idea of self and mine. In this way
one gradually stops minding about "my mind" and sees all
phenomena as fit objects to condition understanding, at any
time. From this perspective hate is just as useful as love
because they are simply changing moments, not me or mine.
This is putting it simply but as you may have gathered it is a
very profound matter; Buddhism aims to fully untangle the
knotted ball of life - and that takes time, effort and much
consideration of what the Buddha taught.
Robert 



 
2445 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account

 
  Mike

Thanks for your thoughtful comments on my report of
the discussion during the Cambodia trip. 

Just to follow up on one or two of the points (in
addition to what Sarah has said in her post)

Pariyatti vs patipada
> This again is perfectly pertinent to our
> discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name,
> pariyatti, as this hadn't come up.  The distinction
> (and the failure to distinguish) between these two
> also adds a dimension to the discussion.  Though
> still
> most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in
> regard to both?

Having the idea that what is pariyatti is in fact
patipada is an aspect of wrong view leading to wrong
practice, so its importance should not be
underestimated.  Yes, it is useful to keep in mind
that all realities are anatta, but this of course is
at the thinking level (I mean the ‘keeping in mind’).

Thinking in concepts vs. wrong view of self
> Thanks, very useful.  So the danger isn't in
> conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by
> tanha, ditthi and/or mana?  Or any other akusala, I
> suppose...

We may think that because we see the world in terms of
people and objects this means there is wrong view. 
This can then be a condition to undertake forms of
‘practice’ which are designed to break down that
perception.  So it is useful to understand the
distinction.  We should not see thinking in concepts
as indicative of lack of understanding of the right
path.

Visible object as just that which appears through the
eye-door
 > > -  The fact that things still appear as
> > conceptualised
> > objects does not mean that there is or can be no
> > awareness of seeing or visible object.
> 
> Simultaneously?  So is this pariyatti?  Awareness
> with
> concept?  Of concept?

Sarah gave some comments on this point which I thought
put it well.  Because the moments of awareness can be
weak and few and far between, its arising may not be
apparent.  The other moments of concept (panyatti) may
predominate.  So we may have a level of awareness and
not know it.  Only later may it become apparent that
awareness and understanding have developed (remember
the simile of the adze handle?).

> Thanks for bringing it all back home...mike

I am glad you were able to appreciate it.

Jonothan



 
2446 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:24am
Subject: RE: Hello all

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all

DEar Jody,

They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
wisdom. 

Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).
___________________________

Hello, Robert,

Thanks, I'll look into it.

___________________________

Robert said:
Vipassana is different from samattha.

___________________________

I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by
the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha-
vipassana.

___________________________

Robert said:
Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking?
very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
but there are other aspects too.

Robert
___________________________

It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in
relation
to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are.
So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling
away
which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is comprehended
by the mind- door as "inner chatter".

There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are
in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion.
The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity
to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the
compassion
of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of gaining
such wisdom.

Regards, Jody.

 
2447 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:00am
Subject: RE: emotions

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/23/00 3:55 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] emotions

Hello Robert,

It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as lately,
I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways.
That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that these
will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable,
but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is
appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds.

_____________________

Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional intelligence"
a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy
reading the works of this author.

_____________________

In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would
anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which
attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if possible,
which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would
like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of
"not-self" in all forms of communication.

The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an earlier email,
for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is choosing to
meditate,
practice, pay attention, etc. Which is obviously needed for a someone
used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of writing look like
which does not refer to a self?

Regards, Jody.

______________________

 
2448 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Jody,
I really appreciate your input on the list.

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: >  -----

> 
> Robert said:
> Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of
> controlling thinking?
> very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a
> whole is SELF
> but there are other aspects too.
> 
> Robert
> ___________________________
> 
>Jody: It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of
orienting to
> a "self" in
> relation
> to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things
> as they are.
> So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising
> and falling
> away
> which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is
> comprehended
> by the mind- door as "inner chatter".
> 
> There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and
> rupa are
> in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control
> is illusion.
> The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate
> profundity
> to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to
> the
> compassion
> of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a
> means of gaining
> such wisdom.
___________________
Very good Jody -- It sounds like the wonder of the Buddha's
teaching is becoming apparent.
Robert







 
 
2449 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Robert,
BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka of Abhidhamma?
anumodana.

selamat rodjali
dhamma study group bogor.

----- Original Message -----
From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET 
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 2:24 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all
>
> DEar Jody,
>
> They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
> I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
> translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
> wisdom.
>
> Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
> are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).
> ___________________________
>
> Hello, Robert,
>
> Thanks, I'll look into it.
>
> ___________________________
>
> Robert said:
> Vipassana is different from samattha.
>
> ___________________________
>
> I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by
> the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha-
> vipassana.
>
> ___________________________
>
> Robert said:
> Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling
thinking?
> very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
> but there are other aspects too.
>
> Robert
> ___________________________
>
> It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in
> relation
> to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are.
> So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling
> away
> which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is
comprehended
> by the mind- door as "inner chatter".
>
> There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are
> in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion.
> The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity
> to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the
> compassion
> of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of
gaining
> such wisdom.
>
> Regards, Jody.
>
>
>
>

 
2450 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:52am
Subject: 

 
  Dear venerables & sirs,
 
Many years rise and fall
Many months rise and fall
Many days rise and fall
Many moments rise and fall
 
Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to conditions all.
 
May in the new year to come, we ever grow in the Dhamma.
Wish you, all, have a good health, mind and body.
 
mettacittena,
dhamma study group bogor 
 
2451 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Rodjali,
Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think
there is no English translation of the Yamaka.
For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to
offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a
20%discount on orders - a good deal.
Robert
--- selamat  wrote: > Dear
Robert,
> BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka
> of Abhidhamma?
> anumodana.
> 
> selamat rodjali
> dhamma study group bogor.
> 



 
2452 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: emotions

 
  > In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would
> anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which
> attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if 
possible,
> which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would
> like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of
> "not-self" in all forms of communication.


Dear Jody,

Some laguages are more grammatically structured than others, which 
would tend to be richer in descriptive adjectives and adverbs.  But 
even babies who had not acquired any sort of communicative abilities 
have the concept of the self, even if they could not express it, as 
in the most primitive life forms.  That one does not mention the self 
does not meant that one does not have that central being.  Nor does 
the understanding on the intellectual level mean that the attachment 
to the self is eradicated, that has to come with a much higher 
accumulation of the experiencing of the characteristics of things as 
they really are.  For example now we are communicating, it is only 
the nama and rupa that are performing the actions, in reality.  There 
are seeing, touching, thinking, sight, hardness and motion, 
temperature, concepts, all the different realities to be studied that 
accumulate knowledge of the real characteristics of the realities 
that arise to be experienced at this very instant, after which it 
would be too late to study them as such.  These tiny instants of 
knowledge are automatically collected in the citta, by right 
understanding, and when the full comprehension is reached, will 
automatically reach the level of knowledge where there is no more 
doubt ever again of that level of understanding.  

Even at different stages of understanding, right up to the 
realization of arahantship, up to the parinibbana, there would always 
be the use of conventional terms and languages, as means of 
communication.  Even the Buddha had to communicate in concepts as 
well, to indicate the meaning of his words whether he intended to 
speak of himself or of others, even when he no longer distinguishes 
between them as different sankhara, since he has eradicated all mana. 
 This does not mean that a person who never uses any sort of noun or 
pronoun has eradicated even the concept of self or wrong view(e.g. 
the sotapanna).  In the end it does not matter what you say (as long 
as it is right speech),  but something that others could never be 
able to tell in general, the mental state in which it was said, in 
other words the cetana cetasika and therefore the citta that produced 
the communication, even when one talks about the paramatthadhamma 
(ultimate or absolute realities).  And that only the person who is 
performing the action could ever really know.

Again, thanks for the interesting questions, and anumodana in your 
studies,

Amara

 
2453 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:39pm
Subject: 

 
  > Many years rise and fall
> Many months rise and fall
> Many days rise and fall
> Many moments rise and fall
> 
> Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to 
conditions all.


Dear Selamat and Bogor dhamma friends,

Thank you for the beautiful reminders and very kind wishes, may all 
that Buddha intended in his teachings benefit you and everyone who 
studies as well,

Anumodana with all the kusala,

Amara

 
2454 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 2:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Vernica

[Everyone - I have been going through some old
messages in my inbox.  Apologies if I repeat something
that has already been said.]

---  wrote: 

> I was wondering if there is any reason, other than
> "similar tastes"
> as you mention above, for one to study the
> Abhidhamma if everything 
> one needs is already in the Suttas?

In the Buddha's time, people were capable of
understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words
without the aid of the Abhidhamma.  The same is not
true today.  Without the AAbhidhamma, it would not be
apparent to us reading the suttas that when the Buddha
talks about, eg seeing, he was talking about a reality
that arises in a process of cittas, that is momentary,
that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya, and
so on.  Many of the realities memtioned in the suttas
can only be understood today with the aid of the
Abhidhamma.

So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather than
elective if we are to understand the teachings found
in the suttas.

Jonothan


 
2455 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Dhd5

---  wrote: > An uncle of mine died a
few weeks ago. Such events
> prompt sadness, 
> which is an unpleasant mental sensation. It SEEMS to
> be rooted in 
> craving for something that isn't there, but
> Abhidhammatha Sangaha 
> indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either
> pleasant or neutral. 
> Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so?
> 
> I can see how aversion to the new conditions without
> the loved one 
> might arise, but the feeling really seems to be more
> rooted in craving 
> than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha
> correctly? 

I think your reading of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha is
correct.

In this kind of situation there can be both cittas
rooted in attachment for the dearly-held object and
cittas rooted in aversion because of absence of the
dearly-held object arising, not exactly simultaneouly
but alternately.

The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be
rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that the
experience of realities as they are one at a time
requires vey highly developed panna.

Many of the conventional 'emotions' we experience are
in fact a mixture of different kinds and intensities
of lobha- and dosa-rooted cittas arising alternately
(one obvious example - nostalgia).

Jonothan 


 
2456 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions

 
  Dear Jody,
kia ora, and merry xmas!
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: > -----> Hello
Robert,
> 
> It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as
> lately,
> I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways.
> That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that
> these
> will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable,
> but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is
> appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds.
__________
Many levels to comprehending kamma and its results -- as you
indicate it  is by understanding the moment that understanding,
and hence confidence in kamma grows.



> 
> _____________________
> 
> Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional
> intelligence"
> a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy
> reading the works of this author.

Thanks I'll keep it in mind.
> 
> _____________________
> 
> In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language.
> Would
> anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing
> which
> attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if
> possible,
> which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I
> would
> like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the
> principle of
> "not-self" in all forms of communication.

------------------
I think it is not so difficult to write without referring to
someone who is writing. What is hard is to see that there is
really no one. We all have different ways of assisting the
perception of not-self anatta-sañña, and this may be a good
reminder for you while writing.  
I guess you have concluded that anatta is the lynchpin of
buddhism. Anumodana.
______________________> 
> The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an
> earlier email,
> for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is
> choosing to
> meditate,
> practice, pay attention, etc. 
____________
Obviously I don't know the book so possibly the writer could
genuinely perceive anatta. However, I have read so many books
and heard so many teachers speak that surely do not understand
anatta. I used to conclude that they had understanding but were
speaking and writing in such ways in order to express and
simplify the teachings. In later years I gathered enough courage
to question them  thoroughly and found many who truly believed
in control. They would say that there is no self but then talk
about - just as you said above- choice, and having sati just by
concentrating, and the importance of intention(as if intention
was something controllable). It took me years to realise that
there are many misinterpretations of buddhism; you already
realise that talk of control and choice is likely to be
concealing atta, self. This is a level of real paññá  and will
condition deeper levels. 


________

Which is obviously needed for a
> someone
> used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of
> writing look like
> which does not refer to a self?
______
It would explain that there are only namas and rupas arising
that perform their functions according to their innate nature.
Perhaps it would indicate that there is no one controlling or
directing any of this, and that the rapidity of change and
perceiving things as a whole gives the illuison of self and
control. In short this type of writing is the Abhidhamma pitaka,
parts of the suttanata, and some of the attakattha. Still we can
refer to I and self and not have wrong view - it depends on the
understanding of the writer.

This is an old letter I wrote on this list which might interest
you:>>>>>>>>>>>Dear group,
I was reading over the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated
by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship).
Thought you might like to hear some passages related to our
recent discussion.
JUst to remind: there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear
comprehension)1puposefulness, 2suitabilty, 3resort, and
4non-delusion. 
We have talked about the 4th one - amoha, panna, non-delusion.
The third one is also interesting - it has one meaning as
"clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for
example)" but also comprehending the resort of ones meditation
subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with
with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation
subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own
meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as
the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their
meditation subject in mind."
A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels
of meaning. Two- a definite distinction made between those who
are developing samattha and those who are developing only
vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements
or bases - paramattha dhammas).

The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is
understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks
ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead'
arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with
the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving
more and more details about mind processes, all to show that
there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned phenomena. This is
comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. 

Does hearing this condition any understanding now? Do you still
think that "you" chose to look at the email? Or does it help you
to see that conditioned by the thought (which was itself
conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed
the hand to push the correct buttons? 
If it does condition understanding then is it some direct
understanding of the dhammas that are arising now, or is it it
at the level of thinking? Never mind - both types are needed -
they support each other.
On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in
doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is
deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it
carefully". 
Robert


 
2457 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Robert,
anumodana.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all


> Dear Rodjali,
> Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think
> there is no English translation of the Yamaka.
> For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to
> offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
> If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a
> 20%discount on orders - a good deal.
> Robert
> --- selamat  wrote: > Dear
> Robert,
> > BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka
> > of Abhidhamma?
> > anumodana.
> > 
> > selamat rodjali
> > dhamma study group bogor.
> > 


 
2458 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 8:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions

 
  Dear Robert, Jody et al.,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> In later years I gathered
> enough courage
> to question them  thoroughly and found many who
> truly believed
> in control. They would say that there is no self but
> then talk
> about - just as you said above - choice, and having
> sati just by
> concentrating, and the importance of intention (as
if
> intention
> was something controllable). 

This is such a fine and crucial point.  I think that
it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual
level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy
to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion
of self (among other reasons).  So we can reject atta
out of plain old dosa...

The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is
MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically)
among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central
issue.  I think this line of thinking usually goes
something like this:  "If 'I' can't choose patipada
over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I'
can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I'
can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to
ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to
hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act*
in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the
eightfold path and attain liberation.  

So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so
long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive
the credit)...!      

Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises,
whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated,
whether dhammas are investigated or not, or
buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether
kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE
in the arising, or the cultivation, or the
investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking
or acting.  If there is no chooser, how can there be,
or have been, a choice?  Just wisdom or ignorance, in
any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or
the other depending on how much of each has
accumulated.

I think that's why right effort is defined by its
outcomes, rather than its intent.  It leads to:

the going down of unskilled states already arisen;
the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen;
the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and
the continuation, development and perfection of
skilled states already arisen.

(sorry I can't cite the source of this translation)

No one choosing or intending in any of these--just
cause, and effect. 

So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about
whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or
not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates
or bases or elements.  'We' will do what conditions,
internal and external, allow us to do, and not
otherwise--ever.  If sufficient wisdom has accumulated
for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and
not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just
wisdom at work--not 'us'.

Jody, I almost envy you your first reading of Majjhima
Nikaya--except that it just keeps getting better.  I'm
really glad for you.

Everybody, I've touched on topics in this message that
I meant to do in response to several really thoughtful
posts in the past few weeks.  I have 85 messages in my
'inbox' that I've kept, hoping to respond to them all
individually, and wonder now if I'll ever find the
time.  I think I'll continue to try to keep up with
the new posts, and try to respond to the old ones as
time permits.  If you're one of the many who hasn't 
yet received a response, thanks for your patience, and
for your posts.  They haven't been unappreciated.

mike  

*Specifically on the kamma issue, I think this is the
(or at least one) big difference between kamma-rebirth
vs. sin-judgement and therefore a difficult hurdle for
ex-christians to jump.  With the former, no one
reborn--just good or bad kamma accumulating and
producing inevitable results.  With the latter,
someone eternal to be rewarded or punished--someone
who 'deserves', based on what?  CHOICE.

 


 
2459  
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 0:49pm
Subject: Re: emotions

 
  ---  "m. nease"  wrote:
> This is such a fine and crucial point.  I think that
> it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual
> level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy
> to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion
> of self (among other reasons).  So we can reject atta
> out of plain old dosa...

Dear Mike,

   An excellent post.  Thank you.

Anumodana,
Alex

 
2460 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 3:10pm
Subject: Choice (was emotions

 
  Dear Mike,
Thanks for an excellent (repeating what alex said) post.
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > > --- Robert
Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > In later years I gathered
> > enough courage
> > to question them  thoroughly and found many who
> > truly believed
> > in control. They would say that there is no self but
> > then talk
> > about - just as you said above - choice, and having
> > sati just by
> > concentrating, and the importance of intention (as
> if
> > intention
> > was something controllable). 
______-
I should add to this. When I said intention is uncontrollable
this is true, however the fact remains that we do seem to have
choice over many things. I can choose to sit down now and
concentrate on the breath or subtle rupas in the body. I can
train myself to observe the way the different objects present
themselves at the senses doors also. What I might not see though
is that intention, cetana, arises with both kusala and akusala,
and that even when it arises with kusala it might not be
associated with samma-ditthi of the eightfactored path. When it
is realised that we can't avoid, actually, having intention I
think the subtlety of the path becomes plain. Sit very still
trying not to have any desire, but what of the (not so)subtle
desire that wants not to have desire. It is not that sitting
very still concentrating on something is wrong it is a rather
that what we need to do is become aware of even the most subtle
types of wrong practice; if we have an idea that only at certain
times, and in certain postures can we have wise attention then
we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong practice.
>_____________ 
> This is such a fine and crucial point.  I think that
> it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual
> level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy
> to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion
> of self (among other reasons).  So we can reject atta
> out of plain old dosa...
> 
> The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is
> MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically)
> among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central
> issue.  I think this line of thinking usually goes
> something like this:  "If 'I' can't choose patipada
> over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I'
> can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I'
> can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to
> ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to
> hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act*
> in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the
> eightfold path and attain liberation. 


> 
> So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so
> long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive
> the credit)...!  
______________
Yes, and it seems scary too, initially. To realise that 'we' are
not in control is deeply threatening to miccha-ditthi. Self view
has kept the round of birth and death going for an infinite
time, understanding about not control is piercing Mara through
the vital organs.  Other spiritual activities, although very
kusala, can't lead out of samsara; anatta-sanna, even at the
beginning level, is an incomparable force.
___________  
> 
> Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises,
> whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated,
> whether dhammas are investigated or not, or
> buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether
> kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE
> in the arising, or the cultivation, or the
> investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking
> or acting.  If there is no chooser, how can there be,
> or have been, a choice?  Just wisdom or ignorance, in
> any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or
> the other depending on how much of each has
> accumulated.
_________
This is right. It seems, then, that nothing can be done. And
indeed nothing can be done by "us". But wisdom develops because
there are conditions for it to develop; wisdom, (paññá 
cetasika) not 'us' realises that hearing the Dhamma conditions
more paññá  and detachment from self. This leads to more effort
to study, more effort to contemplate and more effort to apply,
and this is kusala intention; there is no one who intended.


____________
 
> 
> I think that's why right effort is defined by its
> outcomes, rather than its intent.  It leads to:
> 
> the going down of unskilled states already arisen;
> the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen;
> the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and
> the continuation, development and perfection of
> skilled states already arisen.
> 
> (sorry I can't cite the source of this translation)
> 
> No one choosing or intending in any of these--just
> cause, and effect. 
> 
> So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about
> whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or
> not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates
> or bases or elements.  'We' will do what conditions,
> internal and external, allow us to do, and not
> otherwise--ever.  If sufficient wisdom has accumulated
> for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and
> not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just
> wisdom at work--not 'us'.
___________________
Yes, and discussion is a helpful condition; hearing true Dhamma
conditions the questioning of old assumptions, the Dhamma- the
Buddha's words- is so powerful. Even someone who has no interest
in buddhism if they continue to hear and study will accumulate
more wisdom, if conditions allow this.  Knowing this means we
become patient to speak again and again about Dhamma in order
for this process to continue.
Robert


 
2461 From:  
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 5:29pm
Subject: New Comer

 
  Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance become known. My 
name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to be 
said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for me, before 
devouting any time and effort to try to discuss anything with me ;) I 
currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism -- In a Shunryu 
Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts, inner and outer and 
I work at a book store. Thats really all that my life contains, other 
the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this, weither it be a 
blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank you, and Happy 
holidays

 
2462 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 6:17pm
Subject: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'

 
  Dear friends,

We have just finished uploading the translation of the booklet (about 
20 short pages) that Khuns O and Kom mentioned earlier, in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  You might find it 
easier than others in the section and if you do please tell us if we 
should move it to the intermediate section.

Thanks in advance,

Amara

 
2463 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 6:37pm
Subject: Re: New Comer

 
  > Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance become known. My 
> name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to be 
> said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for me, before 
> devouting any time and effort to try to discuss anything with me ;) 
I 
> currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism -- In a Shunryu 
> Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts, inner and outer 
and 
> I work at a book store. Thats really all that my life contains, 
other 
> the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this, weither it be a 
> blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank you, and Happy 
> holidays


Happy holidays and welcome!

Thanks for the introduction, it sounds so great, a Buddhist  martial 
arts student wielding a pen!  Actually I took a few lessons in Aikido 
myself a very long time ago, is it by any chance what you practice?

Looking forward very much to your contributions, Kyle!

Amara

 
 
2464 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer

 
  Welcome, Kyle,

We have some history in common--many years ago, I was
a student of zen, (and an admirer of Shunryu Suzuki),
and of a southern style of Chinese wu-shu, and I
worked in books for many years.

So, though I don't think much about those things
anymore, and am a relative newcomer to this group
myself (not to mention an elementary student of
abhidhamma, at best) we may still have some common
ground for discussion.

Being glad that you've found this opportunity reminded
me of gladness itself.  Do you know the Pali term,
'mudita'?  Here's bhikku Khantipalo's definition, from
Access to Insight:

(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html)

"Gladness (mudita) is to rejoice with others over
their success, gains, happiness. It overcomes the
grudging attitude to others, and the envy which may
arise on hearing of others' joy. It must show in one's
life as a spontaneous joy at the very time when one
learns that other people have some gain or other,
material or immaterial. It has the advantage of making
one open-hearted towards others, and does away with
secretiveness. A person who develops gladness attracts
many friends who are devoted to him, and with them and
others he lives in harmony. It is Lord Buddha's
medicine for envy and jealousy, which it can inhibit
completely. The two enemies of gladness are the merely
personal happiness of reflecting on one's own gains --
this is the "near" enemy; while the "far" one is
aversion to, or boredom with, this gladness." 

Glad you found us, sir, and happy holidays to you,
too...mike

---  wrote:
> Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance
> become known. My 
> name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to
> be 
> said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for
> me, before 
> devouting any time and effort to try to discuss
> anything with me ;) I 
> currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism
> -- In a Shunryu 
> Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts,
> inner and outer and 
> I work at a book store. Thats really all that my
> life contains, other 
> the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this,
> weither it be a 
> blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank
> you, and Happy 
> holidays
> 
> 



 
2465 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> Dear friends,
> 
> We have just finished uploading the translation of
> the booklet (about 
> 20 short pages) that Khuns O and Kom mentioned
> earlier, in the 
> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>. 

Thanks again for another fine contribution.  There was
a line that made me a little curious:

"Those with faith in the Buddha would respectfully
worship and regularly recite mantra." 

Is recitation a regular practice of Khun Sujin's?  Are
there any particular reflections she recommends?

> You might find it 
> easier than others in the section and if you do
> please tell us if we 
> should move it to the intermediate section.

On this I don't feel entitled to an opinion.

Thanks as always, Ma'am...mike




 
2466 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:50am
Subject: Re: New Comer

 
  > We have some history in common--many years ago, I was
> a student of zen, (and an admirer of Shunryu Suzuki),
> and of a southern style of Chinese wu-shu, and I
> worked in books for many years.
> 
> So, though I don't think much about those things
> anymore, and am a relative newcomer to this group
> myself (not to mention an elementary student of
> abhidhamma, at best) we may still have some common
> ground for discussion.
> 
> Being glad that you've found this opportunity reminded
> me of gladness itself.  Do you know the Pali term,
> 'mudita'?  Here's bhikku Khantipalo's definition, from
> Access to Insight:
> 
> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html)
> 
> "Gladness (mudita) is to rejoice with others over
> their success, gains, happiness. It overcomes the
> grudging attitude to others, and the envy which may
> arise on hearing of others' joy. It must show in one's
> life as a spontaneous joy at the very time when one
> learns that other people have some gain or other,
> material or immaterial. It has the advantage of making
> one open-hearted towards others, and does away with
> secretiveness. A person who develops gladness attracts
> many friends who are devoted to him, and with them and
> others he lives in harmony. It is Lord Buddha's
> medicine for envy and jealousy, which it can inhibit
> completely. The two enemies of gladness are the merely
> personal happiness of reflecting on one's own gains --
> this is the "near" enemy; while the "far" one is
> aversion to, or boredom with, this gladness." 


Dear Mike,

I am glad I caught your post before going to bed.  This is an 
excellent reminder that kusala could arise more often than one thinks, 
that if one were mindful, one could distinguish the very slight 
differences between the often alternating realities of mudita and 
normal everyday lobha.  This is a very pleasant thought as well as a 
useful truth, for which I thank you very much,

Anumodana with all the kusala,

Amara

 
2467 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:05am
Subject: Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'

 
  ---  "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
>  There was
> a line that made me a little curious:
> 
> "Those with faith in the Buddha would respectfully
> worship and regularly recite mantra." 
> 
> Is recitation a regular practice of Khun Sujin's?  Are
> there any particular reflections she recommends?


Dear Mike,

I have never asked her about it but I think she recently mentioned 
that she preferred to reflect alone to reciting in groups, and I 
think she mentioned reflecting on the supreme benevolence and 
beneficence of the Buddha for example.  But I would think that if we 
asked her she would simply say, don't copy.  If you did it, it should 
be more or less that you really felt like doing it, and not because 
someone else does, I guess.  In reality I think that a high 
percentage of people do it just because of habit, or because of 
lobha: they thought if they did they would get some good results or 
even protection from evil.  As always, it's the right understanding 
that counts.

If you like I will ask her about it,

Amara

 
2468 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Choice (was emotions

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> When I said intention is
> uncontrollable
> this is true, however the fact remains that we do
> seem to have
> choice over many things. I can choose to sit down
> now and
> concentrate on the breath or subtle rupas in the
> body. I can
> train myself to observe the way the different
> objects present
> themselves at the senses doors also. 

Thanks for this balancing clarification.  Part of what
I was aiming at (and failed to articulate) was that
what makes this such a fine point is the distinction
between recognizing (conceptually) that intention is
impersonal, and recognizing that good intention is
also indispensable.  I guess what I'm saying is, that
it's easy to fall into a fatalistic view--'If there's
no 'I' to intend, then to hell with good
intention'--rather than to see that intention, good
and bad, is impersonal, but that right intention is
still essential to progress on any level--also
therefore sufficient understanding to distinguish
right intention from wrong.  Coming from?  As you
pointed out in an ealier post, hearing the dhamma and
direct insight into paramattha dhamma (I hope I'm
paraphrasing you accurately).

> What I might
> not see though
> is that intention, cetana, arises with both kusala
> and akusala,
> and that even when it arises with kusala it might
> not be
> associated with samma-ditthi of the eightfactored
> path. When it
> is realised that we can't avoid, actually, having
> intention I
> think the subtlety of the path becomes plain. Sit
> very still
> trying not to have any desire, but what of the (not
> so)subtle
> desire that wants not to have desire. 

This is what I'm aiming at--recognizing that
intention, right or wrong, arises and subsides
according to conditions, rather than as the result of
'my' will or effort.

> It is not that
> sitting
> very still concentrating on something is wrong it is
> a rather
> that what we need to do is become aware of even the
> most subtle
> types of wrong practice; if we have an idea that
> only at certain
> times, and in certain postures can we have wise
> attention then
> we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong
> practice.

Surely.

> It seems, then, that nothing can be
> done. And
> indeed nothing can be done by "us". But wisdom
> develops because
> there are conditions for it to develop; wisdom,
> (paññá 
> cetasika) not 'us' realises that hearing the Dhamma
> conditions
> more paññá  and detachment from self. 

Yes, my point, better-stated.

> This leads to
> more effort
> to study, more effort to contemplate and more effort
> to apply,
> and this is kusala intention; there is no one who
> intended.

Right!

> Yes, and discussion is a helpful condition; hearing
> true Dhamma
> conditions the questioning of old assumptions, the
> Dhamma- the
> Buddha's words- is so powerful. Even someone who has
> no interest
> in buddhism if they continue to hear and study will
> accumulate
> more wisdom, if conditions allow this.  Knowing this
> means we
> become patient to speak again and again about Dhamma
> in order
> for this process to continue.

Yes, I for one can't hear these points, especially the
more slippery ones, often enough.  Lots of competing
anusaya!  MUCH more accumulation of these fine bits of
understanding is necessary if kusala is to win out in
the long run...mike



 
2469 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Choice (was emotions

 
  p.s.

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> if we have an idea that
> only at certain
> times, and in certain postures can we have wise
> attention then
> we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong
> practice.

...not to mention, right practice!


 
2470 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> ---  "m. nease"
>  wrote:

> But I would
> think that if we 
> asked her she would simply say, don't copy.  

I wouldn't be surprised, now you mention it!  And this
'don't copy' is itself a good reflection--I
think--although for myself, I have to be careful of
copying 'not-copying', if you see what I mean.  

Still, it does sound like she might be recommending
this.

> If you
> did it, it should 
> be more or less that you really felt like doing it,
> and not because 
> someone else does, I guess.  

Well, that's sort of my question, really.  I have done
this, on and off, for a long time, though not lately.

> In reality I think that
> a high 
> percentage of people do it just because of habit, or
> because of 
> lobha: they thought if they did they would get some
> good results or 
> even protection from evil.  

I think so too--isn't there a miccha-ditthi
specifically referring to belief in (the magical
efficacy of) rites and rituals?

It used to really bother me in the monastery, all the
puja, especially on uposatha days--it reminded me WAY
too much of sunday hymn-singing in christian churches.
 

> As always, it's the
> right understanding 
> that counts.

Of course.
 
> If you like I will ask her about it,

Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any
merit to the question...
 
Thanks in advance...mike


 
2471 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

[from Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the commentary to
Sammanaphala Sutta]

> "Clear comprehension of
> non-delusion here is
> understanding thus "internally there is no self
> which looks
> ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look
> ahead'
> arises, the mind -originated air element arises
> together with
> the thought, producing intimation..." 

Interesting!  Quite a nice glimpse of practical
abhidhamma...can you expand a little on 'intimation'
here?

> It carries
> on giving
> more and more details about mind processes, all to
> show that
> there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned
> phenomena. 

Sorry, what is the 'It' that carries on?

> This is
> comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. 

Excellent, thanks, and in advance...

mike


 
2472 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> In this kind of situation there can be both cittas
> rooted in attachment for the dearly-held object and
> cittas rooted in aversion because of absence of the
> dearly-held object arising, not exactly
> simultaneouly
> but alternately.

Thanks for repeating this important point.
 
> The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be
> rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that
> the
> experience of realities as they are one at a time
> requires vey highly developed panna.

Would it be correct to say that this is panyatti vs.
patipada?  And would this resultant distincition be
pariyatti?  Still trying to get a handle on these
terms.
 
> Many of the conventional 'emotions' we experience
> are
> in fact a mixture of different kinds and intensities
> of lobha- and dosa-rooted cittas arising alternately
> (one obvious example - nostalgia).

Thanks again.  For those of us with no recollection of
direct insight into paramattha dhamma, this
understanding of the cause of the apparent blending of
dhammas helps to explain a lot.

mike


 

2474 From: Kyle Kirk  <> 
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 3:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer

 
  thank you very much Mike, for the definition. I am
always willing to learn that which I do not know, and
happy to admit that I know enough to know I know I
know nothing at all! :) and Amara, I have practiced a
few things. Aikido being one of them, I enjoy Aikido
and its philsophies, the unfortunate part is that I do
not like most of its teachers in my area!! So,
currently I practice Kenjutsu and Shito-Ryu Karate-Do.
Both with excellent and incredibly nice
Sensei/Teachers. I feel very blessed to have such
people imparting their experiences on me.

Speaking of this, I have a thought.


Many people have openly said that they believe a
Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the
capability of killing another human being if the
neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or
Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the
 Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without
mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
trying to do the complete opposite. I would be very
interested in hearing some thoughts -- as to not taint
the discussion, I will give my opinion after a few
have filtered through :)


=====

The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...

and nothing is truly lost.



 
2475 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Jonothan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> [Everyone - I have been going through some old
> messages in my inbox.  Apologies if I repeat
> something
> that has already been said.]

I'm glad you did!
 
> In the Buddha's time, people were capable of
> understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words
> without the aid of the Abhidhamma.  

Have people changed so much?  The world of the Buddha
seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the
same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc.  That
they had the incomparable advantage of being directly
instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!)
is clear.  That they were, otherwise, somehow, better
equipped to understand is not so clear to me.  The
Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for
those who came from other religious traditions that
recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to
be in a minority), what advantage did those people
have over those of the present time? 

> The same is not
> true today.  Without the Abhidhamma, it would not
> be
> apparent to us reading the suttas that when the
> Buddha
> talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a
> reality
> that arises in a process of cittas, that is
> momentary,
> that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya,
> and
> so on.  

Do you think this (detailed understanding) was
apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the
Buddha's time?  This doesn't seem obvious to me from
the suttas.  In fact, it isn't clear from my reading
of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear,
detailed understanding of every last minute detail of
abhidhamma.  In fact, was this detailed understanding
a necessary condition or component of nibbana?  Or was
sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to
break the chain of conditioned origination?

> Many of the realities mentioned in the
> suttas
> can only be understood today with the aid of the
> Abhidhamma.
> 
> So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather
> than
> elective if we are to understand the teachings found
> in the suttas.

I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious. 
I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit of:

(a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas: 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html

In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed
skepticism, with the reference constantly returning to
self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so is
pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada (if
I understand this term correctly).  So, to to the
extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant
insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the
declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is
necesary rather than elective if we are to understand
the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet this
criterion.  

The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the
suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed
understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a
prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being
dhammavinaya.  So this argument still seems dependent
on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people
were capable of understanding the deep meaning of the
Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.' and
'The same is not true today.'  Since this is not
verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see
more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the
suttas.

and (b) of the Four Great References of the
Maha-Parinibbana Sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html.

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a
bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor
with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but
carefully studying the sentences word by word, one
should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by
the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the
Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must
conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed
One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that
bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders,
or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should
reject it. But if the sentences concerned are
traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the
Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly,
this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been
well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that
community, or by those elders, or by that elder..."

Again, we could accept the above declarations (only)
to the extent that they can be verified by the
discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the
discourses.

Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to gainsay
anything I've learned from this group.  In fact, even
without satisfactory answers to these questions, I
certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as
I've been introduced to it here.  'My' understanding
of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think
improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've
received and hope to continue to receive here.  

Still, I think that answers to these questions which
satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great value
to us and especially to those who are skeptical of
this third of the tipitaka.

Sincere thanks for your patient consideration...

mike


 
2477 From: Kyle Kirk  <> 
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  >Have people changed so much?  The world of the Buddha
seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the
same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc.  That
they had the incomparable advantage of being directly
instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!)
is clear.  That they were, otherwise, somehow, better
equipped to understand is not so clear to me.  The
Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for
those who came from other religious traditions that
recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to
be in a minority), what advantage did those people
have over those of the present time? 

<<


Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
how much there was out there to want.


I think the uninstructured had a very good
understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
than most students of Buddhism do today!!

The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
I do not know what is. :)

=====

The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...

and nothing is truly lost.



 
2478 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 6:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions

 
  See my comments below:
_______
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> [from Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the commentary to
> Sammanaphala Sutta]
> 
> > "Clear comprehension of
> > non-delusion here is
> > understanding thus "internally there is no self
> > which looks
> > ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look
> > ahead'
> > arises, the mind -originated air element arises
> > together with
> > the thought, producing intimation..." 
> 
> Interesting!  Quite a nice glimpse of practical
> abhidhamma...can you expand a little on 'intimation'
> here?
>_______
"intimation" the english translation of kaya-viññati, physical
intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter conditioned by
citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually akara-vikara(a
particular position or set of other rupas. Akara- vikara:
alteration of the mode. It is through bodily movements that the
citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible object  the
citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes known the
citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta. This is
quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be said about
it. There is no self anywhere in this process of movement,
nothing lasting.



, an 
> > It carries
> > on giving
> > more and more details about mind processes, all to
> > show that
> > there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned
> > phenomena. 
> 
> Sorry, what is the 'It' that carries on?
________
The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more details.
Robert


 
 
2479 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 6:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer

 
  Dear Kyle,
welcome to the discussion group.
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > thank you very

> 
> 
> Many people have openly said that they believe a
> Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the
> capability of killing another human being if the
> neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or
> Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the
>  Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without
> mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
> in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
> trying to do the complete opposite. I would be very
> interested in hearing some thoughts -- as to not taint
> the discussion, I will give my opinion after a few
> have filtered through :)

The sakyyans, the Buddha's relatives were noted and feared
warriors. Because of their enormous acumulations  countless
thousands of them became ariya-puggala, attained stages of
enlightenment. This meant they could no longer kill.
Nevertheless they continued on with their skill in fighting and
warfare. They were attacked by a prince who had a grudge against
one who had called him the son of a slavewoman (which he was).
In the initial stages of the battle the sakkyans demonstrated
their skill with bowmanship to such extent that the other army
fled. However the advisor to this prince explained that these
sakkyans do not kill "note that their arrows are passing between
the men, not hitting them". The prince informed his men of this
and they went back and slaughtered the sakkyanas at will. 

Until we are enlightened we may kill if conditions are
favourable; but even a sotapanna (firsat stage of enlightenment)
might train in martial arts.
I know some of Khun sujin's students who are Generals in the
thai army.  
robert


 
2480 From: Kyle Kirk  <> 
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer

 
  Thank you! this is very enlightening information!! :)
I also believe that until the entire human race
becomes "Aware" and becomes a Buddha, that the need to
protect ones self will be as much apart of life as
anything else!

=====

The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...

and nothing is truly lost.



 
2481 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Jonothan,
> 
> --- > Have people changed so much?  The world of the Buddha
> seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the
> same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc.  That
> they had the incomparable advantage of being directly
> instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!)
> is clear.  That they were, otherwise, somehow, better
> equipped to understand is not so clear to me.  The
> Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for
> those who came from other religious traditions that
> recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to
> be in a minority), what advantage did those people
> have over those of the present time? 
______
How many these days do you know like Bahiya who upon one short
discourse became arahants, there and then. Or like khema, the
queen who didn't want to meet the Buddha but at her first
meeting also became an arahant? or sariputta, moggalana,
anathapindika, and so many others who simply while listening
became enlightened. Coincidence? Well we listen to exactly the
same words as enlightened them- it is not that they have magic
power because an arahant spoke them. As a reference I gave a
while back showed if a teacher repeats the buddhas teaching
correctly even though he is not enlightened his students can
become enlightened.
 The attakattha suggests(I can find references if you really
have doubts about this)that the further away from the time of a
buddha one is born the harder it becomes. These days many find
it difficult to distinguish right theory from wrong, let alone
going deeper. 
----------

> 
> > The same is not
> > true today.  Without the Abhidhamma, it would not
> > be
> > apparent to us reading the suttas that when the
> > Buddha
> > talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a
> > reality
> > that arises in a process of cittas, that is
> > momentary,
> > that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya,
> > and
> > so on.  
> 
> Do you think this (detailed understanding) was
> apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the
> Buddha's time?  This doesn't seem obvious to me from
> the suttas.  In fact, it isn't clear from my reading
> of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear,
> detailed understanding of every last minute detail of
> abhidhamma.  In fact, was this detailed understanding
> a necessary condition or component of nibbana?  Or was
> sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to
> break the chain of conditioned origination?
______________
Paññá (wisdom)  needs conditions to accumulate. There were those
like moggalana who could become enlightened so quickly, without
details in this life. They had listened to many Buddhas in the
past. They had been accumulating paññá  for more than a hundred
thousand aeons. Anyone who thinks they can just hear a little
and that is sufficient to condition deep insight does not see
what paññá is and the conditions for its arising. The
netti-pakarana say that for those who are slow (neyya) the
Buddha taught the details. At this time there are only neyya and
padaparama(very, very slow). There are no longer the fast ones-
this is stated in the attakattha. 



 


> 
> > Many of the realities mentioned in the
> > suttas
> > can only be understood today with the aid of the
> > Abhidhamma.
> > 
> > So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather
> > than
> > elective if we are to understand the teachings found
> > in the suttas.
> 
> I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious. 
> I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit of:
> 
> (a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas: 
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html
> 
> In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed
> skepticism, with the reference constantly returning to
> self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so is
> pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada (if
> I understand this term correctly).  So, to to the
> extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant
> insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the
> declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is
> necesary rather than elective if we are to understand
> the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet this
> criterion.  
> 
> The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the
> suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed
> understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a
> prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being
> dhammavinaya.  So this argument still seems dependent
> on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people
> were capable of understanding the deep meaning of the
> Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.' and
> 'The same is not true today.'  Since this is not
> verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see
> more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the
> suttas.
> 
> and (b) of the Four Great References of the
> Maha-Parinibbana Sutta:
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html.
> 
> "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a
> bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor
> with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but
> carefully studying the sentences word by word, one
> should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by
> the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the
> Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must
> conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed
> One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that
> bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders,
> or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should
> reject it. But if the sentences concerned are
> traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the
> Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly,
> this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been
> well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that
> community, or by those elders, or by that elder..."
> 
> Again, we could accept the above declarations (only)
> to the extent that they can be verified by the
> discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the
> discourses.
> 
> Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to gainsay
> anything I've learned from this group.  In fact, even
> without satisfactory answers to these questions, I
> certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as
> I've been introduced to it here.  'My' understanding
> of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think
> improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've
> received and hope to continue to receive here.  
> 
> Still, I think that answers to these questions which
> satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great value
> to us and especially to those who are skeptical of
> this third of the tipitaka.
--------------
You might not find this specifically mentioned in the suttas-
but it is part of the earliest tradition as passed on in the
attakatha(commentaries). The foolish will always want to argue
this point- even if it is was in a sutta they will say
the sutta is wrong. 
The buddha said (in a sutta)that in the future the deep
teachings about the void  will be neglected. The entire
abhidhamma has one flavour, the flavour of anatta, of voidness
of self. 
Robert



 
2482 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > >Have people
changed > <<
> 
> 
> Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> how much there was out there to want.
  
The pali texts, (maybe in the apadana), say that prince
siddhattha had 80,000 wives and concubines, all of them
beautiful. Considering the auspicious times probably much more
beautiful than woman of this era. What would you have more
desire for, half-naked woman at your beck and call or the
trinkets we now have such as cars and refigerators?
Robert


 
2483 From: Kyle Kirk  <> 
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Of course, just like in any text, buddhist, christian
or hindu. No text can be taken at face value... Most
are mere myth's, or exagurations. I am sure he had
many wives, but 80,000? I am not to sure... :) and
truthfully, once someone has sex/makes love so many
times, it can become bland, so.. I would say if I were
him, that he would get very tired of women and go
towards trinkets and such as well

=====

The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...

and nothing is truly lost.



 
2484 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  I appreciate your keenness in writing Kyle.
Say we agree that most buddhist texts are 'mere myths or
exaggerations' - does everyone on this list take that to be the
case by the way?- and he had say 20 wives only. It is not just
the sex, they washed his clothes, fed him delicious food, and
much more. I know a friend who only has one wife and yet when
she left him it almost drove him crazy. he worked like a dog to
support her yet would have gladly given up his car and other
things to get her back. Desire finds objects whatever they are.
king mongut of thailand was a monk for 27 years, very strict
about vinaya, he lived a celibate life until age 47. After that
until his untimely death he managed to sire 55 or more children
by different wives.
Another point is that sense-desires are only one part of
upadana-atachment, a spoke on paticcasamupada(dependent
origination). There are clingings also to wrongview, and these
are just as sinister. Have you ever met cult people? Some of
them live lives of austerity, swearing away from modern
inventions; but try to get them to give up their beliefs...
Robert
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Of course,
just like in any text, buddhist, christian
> or hindu. No text can be taken at face value... Most
> are mere myth's, or exagurations. I am sure he had
> many wives, but 80,000? I am not to sure... :) and
> truthfully, once someone has sex/makes love so many
> times, it can become bland, so.. I would say if I were
> him, that he would get very tired of women and go
> towards trinkets and such as well
> 
> =====
> 
> The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not
> Descend...
> 
> and nothing is truly lost.
> 
> 



 
2485 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'

 
  Dear Amara, 
thanks I would appreciate some clarification here too. I haven't
heard Khun sujin recommending the recitation of mantras before. 
Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Khun Amara,
> 
> --- amara chay  wrote:
> > Of course.
>  
> > If you like I will ask her about it,
> 
> Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any
> merit to the question...
>  
> Thanks in advance...mike
> 



 
2486 From: Kyle Kirk  <> 
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  The desire for things includes the desire to be waited
upon and loved, even if falsly. Any desire really
falls under that distraction... But -- There were far
less distractions in Sidharttha's age than there are
today. I mean imagine, Computers, Cars, Money, Drugs,
Movies, books, Etc. Etc. Its just the point in fact
that when *one* thing distracts you, you at least can
focus on it and try to break away, when many things
distract you, you can break one, but there will always
be another to lure you back in.

=====

The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...

and nothing is truly lost.



 
2487 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  So we see how hard it is to give up sense desire. The ancients,
those who lived before the Buddha, knew this and developed
samattha (concentration meditation)so as to surmount sense
desire completely, for the time that the conditions for samattha
existed. The buddha's path, vipassana, (vi-special,
passana-seeing,) was one that eliminated ignorance about all
objects including desire. I think it is not so much  a way of
retreat from desire, as a way of understanding; and that
understanding learns to see that there is no one who is having
desire or not having desire, no one, too, who is being
distracted.
Robert 
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > The desire for
things includes the desire to be waited
> upon and loved, even if falsly. Any desire really
> falls under that distraction... But -- There were far
> less distractions in Sidharttha's age than there are
> today. I mean imagine, Computers, Cars, Money, Drugs,
> Movies, books, Etc. Etc. Its just the point in fact
> that when *one* thing distracts you, you at least can
> focus on it and try to break away, when many things
> distract you, you can break one, but there will always
> be another to lure you back in.
> 
> =====
> 
> The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not
> Descend...
> 
> and nothing is truly lost.
> 
> 



 
2488 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:09am
Subject: Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death'

 
  >  And this
> 'don't copy' is itself a good reflection--I
> think--although for myself, I have to be careful of
> copying 'not-copying', if you see what I mean.  


Dear Mike,

Excellent point, too!


> Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any
> merit to the question...


Will do, report,

Amara

 
2489 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:50am
Subject: Re: New Comer

 
  > and Amara, I have practiced a
> few things. Aikido being one of them, I enjoy Aikido
> and its philsophies, 

> Many people have openly said that they believe a
> Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the
> capability of killing another human being if the
> neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or
> Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the
>  Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without
> mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
> in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
> trying to do the complete opposite. 


Dear Kyle,

I probably preferred Aikido over all the others because of many 
reasons, the first being possibly as you mentioned, the philosophy is 
somewhat different from other regimes', at least as it was taught to 
me.  At that time the founder was still alive but very old, unless he 
is still there thirty odd years later (is he still with us?!), and 
the person who taught me was the youngest of his seven pupils who 
were senseis.  He said then that it was purely defensive, in that the 
main strategy is to use the opponents' own strength and actions 
against them, so that attacking party is always open to these 
defensive actions that should lead to control over the situation.  
The movements themselves stress economy of energy, always circular 
and smooth, like classical ballet to me, and never counter the flow 
of the attacking party, simply redirecting it to your own advantage.  
And you never use brute strength and stay as far away from your 
opponents as your reach allows, which means that a very small, weak 
person would not be overpowered by weight and physical strength as 
for example in judo, or even Taekwando.  Of course this does not mean 
it cannnot be used in a harmful way, in the end it is still the 
cetana cetasika that counts.

Still, to say that '"Kill your opponent without
> mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt
> in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of
> trying to do the complete opposite.' is not being absolutely true, 
as you must know.  I would rather think it would be defend youself as 
best you can without harming others, through all kusala means:  
wherever possible, could we reason with them with kindness, since the 
harm they intend might not happen to you because it is not your 
vipaka at that instant, but would surely bring the intended result on 
themselves one day?  I used not to understand when Khun Sujin said we 
should pity wrong doers but have since come to understand that they 
are harming themselves most of all, whether they succeed in harming 
others or not.  If you could make everyone see this there would be no 
more need for martial arts except perhaps as art form!

I hope you find something useful in this discussion, for my part I 
have at least enjoyed it very much, and reminded me of the dhamma as 
well,

Amara

 
2490 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> how much there was out there to want.


Dear Kyle,

I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the object of 
lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the Crown Prince 
had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed skill when 
his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth birthday. 
 His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land, his 
wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections.  No matter the age 
or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes of the 
senses) could only perceive or experience things only through the six 
dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we cling to so 
passionately appear to us only through these senses, no matter how 
complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even our useful 
computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva worlds, 
since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka (result of 
kamma) of good past kamma.  Yet devas have come to listen to the 
Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although generally 
they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of kusala in 
their worlds.

 
> I think the uninstructured had a very good
> understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
> A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
> than most students of Buddhism do today!!


Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside!  Witness the very busy 
schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate the 
rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas could 
arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed of light.

 
> The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
> very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
> he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
> an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
> I do not know what is. :)


If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all without 
instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly long 
period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever since 
he was predicted to be the Buddha one day.  In fact you could read 
about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles, 
'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced 
section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.

Enjoy,

Amara

 
2491 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Amara,

Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu ! 

Metta,
Leonardo 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "amara chay" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 2:26 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi


> 
> > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> > that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> > how much there was out there to want.
> 
> 
> Dear Kyle,
> 
> I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the object of 
> lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the Crown Prince 
> had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed skill when 
> his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth birthday. 
>  His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land, his 
> wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections.  No matter the age 
> or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes of the 
> senses) could only perceive or experience things only through the six 
> dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we cling to so 
> passionately appear to us only through these senses, no matter how 
> complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even our useful 
> computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva worlds, 
> since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka (result of 
> kamma) of good past kamma.  Yet devas have come to listen to the 
> Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although generally 
> they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of kusala in 
> their worlds.
> 
>  
> > I think the uninstructured had a very good
> > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> > superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
> > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> > understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
> > than most students of Buddhism do today!!
> 
> 
> Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside!  Witness the very busy 
> schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate the 
> rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas could 
> arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed of light.
> 
>  
> > The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
> > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> > religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
> > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> > instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
> > an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
> > I do not know what is. :)
> 
> 
> If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all without 
> instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly long 
> period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever since 
> he was predicted to be the Buddha one day.  In fact you could read 
> about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles, 
> 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced 
> section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Amara

 
2492 From: Kyle Kirk  <> 
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Ahh! My thanks for the links! :)

=====

The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...

and nothing is truly lost.



 
2493 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:52pm
Subject: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  Dear Friends,

When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some
arrangements so that anyone from this list can obtain
tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English) and
copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin that
have been printed in Bangkok.

If you would like to order tapes or books for personal
use from the Foundation in Bangkok (the centre where
Khun Sujin teaches), send your request to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100248102098204051043041114242049205015143149  cc: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=230059219009194116170218159119129253098048149219
specifying the titles (for books) and dates of
discussion (for tapes) you would like.  Please make
sure you give your name and postal address exactly as
it should appear on the package.
 
Costs have all been covered in advance.

The editing & copying of tapes and sending of tapes
and books is done by volunteers in their spare time,
so please expect delays!

Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could post
the titles of books available.

Jonothan & Sarah



 
2494 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Mike

> > The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be
> > rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that
> > the
> > experience of realities as they are one at a time
> > requires vey highly developed panna.
> 
> Would it be correct to say that this is panyatti vs.
> patipada?  And would this resultant distincition be
> pariyatti?  Still trying to get a handle on these
> terms.

The term ‘panyatti’ (concept) can be used in
contradistinction to ‘paramattha dhamma’ (absolute
reality/fundamental phenomena).  As often discussed on
this list, we live in a world of concepts (mere
constructs of the mind), oblivious to the true nature
of the realities of the moment.  We take people and
things as being the reality of the present moment as
experienced. 

The distinction is indeed important.  Paramattha
dhammas can be the object of sati (awareness) and
panna (wisdom),  but panyatti cannot.

‘Pariyatti’ and ‘pa.tipatti’ [I have been using the
wrong term – apologies] refer to different levels of
understanding.  ‘Pariyatti’ is understanding at an
intellectual level, while ‘patipatti’ is knowing by
direct experience, as when sati and panna of the level
of satipatthana arise.  

There is also a third level under this classification,
namely ‘pa.tivedha’ meaning penetration, realisation. 
This refers to the moment of experience of nibbana.

I hope this helps clarify these terms.

Jonothan


 
2495 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Kyle,

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful response.

--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote:

> Well, if we put it in perspective. People have
> changed
> alot, they have grown more impatient, they have
> grown
> more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger.
> So,
> We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> how much there was out there to want.

Your points are interesting and well-taken.  Life is
certainly much more complicated now than it was
then... 

> I think the uninstructured had a very good
> understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> superficial parts of religion. But by actually
> DOING.
> A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> understanding of meditation as he moved along
> quietly,
> than most students of Buddhism do today!!

...and maybe concentration was much easier to
develop...
 
> The best example of an uninstructed individual who
> is
> very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> religions, but... that does not mean that any of
> those
> he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> instruction. 

That is true, he certainly was samma sambuddho,
rightly self-awakened.

> By simply living -- now, if that is not
> an example of the uninstructed reaching great
> levels,
> I do not know what is. :)

I wouldn't call the Buddha's path 'simply living',
though maybe you mean something by this that I don't
understand.  At any rate, though there are plenty of
good reasons to speculate that understanding of the
dhammavinaya was more accessible to people of that
time, what I'm really looking for is confirmation from
the sutta-pitaka that this is not speculation, but in
keeping with dhamma-vinaya.

Thanks again for your thoughtful comments--I look
forward to hearing more...

mike




 
2496 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> "intimation" the english translation of
> kaya-viññati, physical
> intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter
> conditioned by
> citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually
> akara-vikara(a
> particular position or set of other rupas. Akara-
> vikara:
> alteration of the mode. It is through bodily
> movements that the
> citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible
> object  the
> citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes
> known the
> citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta.
> This is
> quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be
> said about
> it. There is no self anywhere in this process of
> movement,
> nothing lasting.

This is absolutely fascinating.  Since encountering
abhidhamma, I've focused only on nama--I'd forgotten
that I know next to nothing about rupa.  A lot more
interesting study ahead...

> The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more
> details.

I think this is available from BPS, maybe Zolag--I'll
have a look and get back to you.  Would you suggest
this as a good place to start to understand rupa in
general?

Thanks again...mike



 
2497 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions

 
  dear Mike,
Many useful details in the atthasalini,(the expositor) also Nina
van gorkom's book -"Rupas"- available for free download from
Zolag.http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupf.pdf is excellent. Rupa-khanda
needs to be comprehended, learning more details is most
advantageous.
robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > "intimation" the english translation of
> > kaya-viññati, physical
> > intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter
> > conditioned by
> > citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually
> > akara-vikara(a
> > particular position or set of other rupas. Akara-
> > vikara:
> > alteration of the mode. It is through bodily
> > movements that the
> > citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible
> > object  the
> > citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes
> > known the
> > citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta.
> > This is
> > quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be
> > said about
> > it. There is no self anywhere in this process of
> > movement,
> > nothing lasting.
> 
> This is absolutely fascinating.  Since encountering
> abhidhamma, I've focused only on nama--I'd forgotten
> that I know next to nothing about rupa.  A lot more
> interesting study ahead...
> 
> > The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more
> > details.
> 
> I think this is available from BPS, maybe Zolag--I'll
> have a look and get back to you.  Would you suggest
> this as a good place to start to understand rupa in
> general?
> 
> Thanks again...mike
> 



 
2498 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Robert,


--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> How many these days do you know like Bahiya who upon
> one short
> discourse became arahants, there and then. Or like
> khema, the
> queen who didn't want to meet the Buddha but at her
> first
> meeting also became an arahant? or sariputta,
> moggalana,
> anathapindika, and so many others who simply while
> listening
> became enlightened. 

None at all...

> Coincidence? Well we listen to
> exactly the
> same words as enlightened them- it is not that they
> have magic
> power because an arahant spoke them. As a reference
> I gave a
> while back showed if a teacher repeats the buddhas
> teaching
> correctly even though he is not enlightened his
> students can
> become enlightened.
> The attakattha suggests (I can find references if
> you really
> have doubts about this) that the further away from
> the time of a
> buddha one is born the harder it becomes. These days
> many find
> it difficult to distinguish right theory from wrong,
> let alone
> going deeper.

O.K...
 
> Paññá (wisdom)  needs conditions to accumulate.
> There were those
> like moggalana who could become enlightened so
> quickly, without
> details in this life. They had listened to many
> Buddhas in the
> past. They had been accumulating paññá  for more
> than a hundred
> thousand aeons. Anyone who thinks they can just hear
> a little
> and that is sufficient to condition deep insight
> does not see
> what paññá is and the conditions for its arising.
> The
> netti-pakarana say that for those who are slow
> (neyya) the
> Buddha taught the details. At this time there are
> only neyya and
> padaparama 

[that would be me...!]

> (very, very slow). There are no longer the
> fast ones-
> this is stated in the attakattha.

> You might not find this specifically mentioned in
> the suttas-
> but it is part of the earliest tradition as passed
> on in the
> attakatha(commentaries). The foolish will always
> want to argue
> this point- even if it is was in a sutta they will
> say
> the sutta is wrong.

Well, I'm no rocket scientist myself, but I DON'T want
to argue this point...
 
> The buddha said (in a sutta)that in the future the
> deep
> teachings about the void  will be neglected. The
> entire
> abhidhamma has one flavour, the flavour of anatta,
> of voidness
> of self.  

Certainly!  and thanks for this detailed and
thoughtful response.  It's really very helpful.

mike


 
2499 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:53pm
Subject: Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  > When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some
> arrangements so that anyone from this list can obtain
> tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English) and
> copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin that
> have been printed in Bangkok.



Dear Sarah and Jonothan,

Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I did not know you had arranged for 
the books as well as tapes, the latter you announced even before you 
came to Bkk, I think.  This is great, I have also printed out 
Robert's suggestions for Khun Sujin, about regular packages to Burma, 
although she hasn't said anything to me.  Perhaps Robert should also
follow up with her on this.  

Anumodana with all the kusala cetana,

Amara

 
2500 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 1:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> What would you
> have more
> desire for, half-naked women at your beck and call
> or the
> trinkets we now have such as cars and refigerators?

You have a point!  A terrifying thought...

mike


 
2501 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Robert and Kyle,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> I appreciate your keenness in writing Kyle.
> Say we agree that most buddhist texts are 'mere
> myths or
> exaggerations' - does everyone on this list take
> that to be the
> case by the way?- 

Not at all.

> and he had say 20 wives only. It
> is not just
> the sex, they washed his clothes, fed him delicious
> food, and
> much more. I know a friend who only has one wife and
> yet when
> she left him it almost drove him crazy. he worked
> like a dog to
> support her yet would have gladly given up his car
> and other
> things to get her back. 

This reminded me of Sean Whittle's wonderful
translation of Pariyadaya Sutta.  Hope you don't mind
if I reprint it here:

Pariyadaya sutta - Overpowering
AN I.1-10

1. Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Blessed
One was living in
Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery.
At that time he
addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, venerable sir."

"Monks, I do not see any other form that is more
overpowering, to the mind
of a man, than a woman's form. Monks, a woman's form
is overpowering to the
mind of a man."

2. "Monks, I do not see any other voice that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's voice. Monks, a woman's
voice is overpowering
to the mind of a man."

3. "Monks, I do not see any other smell that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's smell. Monks, a woman's
smell is overpowering
to the mind of a man."

4. "Monks, I do not see any other taste that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's taste. Monks, a woman's
taste is overpowering
to the mind of a man."

5. "Monks, I do not see any other touch that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a man, than a woman's touch. Monks, a woman's
touch is overpowering
to the mind of a man."

6. "Monks, I do not see any other form that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's form. Monks, a man's
form is overpowering to
the mind of a woman."

7. "Monks, I do not see any other voice that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's voice. Monks, a man's
voice is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."

8. "Monks, I do not see any other smell that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's smell. Monks, a man's
smell is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."

9. "Monks, I do not see any other taste that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's taste. Monks, a man's
taste is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."

10. "Monks, I do not see any other touch that is more
overpowering, to the
mind of a woman, than a man's touch. Monks, a man's
touch is overpowering
to the mind of a woman."

One of the things I find so admirable about the Buddha
is that he had experienced sense-pleasures to the
maximum, and was still able to relinquish them.  I
honestly doubt I would have been able to give up even
half so pleasant a life.

> Desire finds objects
> whatever they are.
> king mongut of thailand was a monk for 27 years,
> very strict
> about vinaya, he lived a celibate life until age 47.
> After that
> until his untimely death he managed to sire 55 or
> more children
> by different wives.
> Another point is that sense-desires are only one
> part of
> upadana-atachment, a spoke on
> paticcasamupada (dependent
> origination). There are clingings also to wrongview,
> and these
> are just as sinister. 

If not more so.  Anyway, pancupadanakhanda is really
the issue, isn't it...

> Have you ever met cult people?
> Some of
> them live lives of austerity, swearing away from
> modern
> inventions; but try to get them to give up their
> beliefs...

Not to mention a lot of Buddhist monks...

mike


 
2502 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  Dear Sarah, Jon, Khun Amara et al.,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Dear Friends,
> 
> When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some
> arrangements so that anyone from this list can
> obtain
> tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English)
> and
> copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin
> that
> have been printed in Bangkok.

Excellent news!

Just to update you on my efforts to digitize the tapes
Robert sent me:  I still haven't overcome the
technological hurdles to getting these onto the web. 
As it turns out, the sound card needed to run the
software to re-master the recordings is not compatible
with my computer.  I think the answer will be a new
computer, so it may be a little while yet.  I'll keep
you posted...

> Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could post
> the titles of books available.

Yes, please!  And thanks again...

mike



 
2503 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Jonathan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> I hope this helps clarify these terms.

It certainly does--thanks very much.

mike


 
2504 From:  
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:13pm
Subject: Punnanumodana

 
  dear Mike sir

I received your dhamma dana on christmas day.
{Mulapariyaya sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi}

May this punna kamma be a condition for the attaining of nibbana,
May this punnakamma condition the company of Kalyana friends



Rgds.

 
2505 From:  
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear friends,

Talking about people who lived in the past,
I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from the present.

On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the tipitaka and other
texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that we can observe ,
feel, do or read  nowadays.
Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people are a thousandfold
greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient texts suggest
otherwise.

On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage stories in texts
which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we now see and observe.
- The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid murderers.
- The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young women ( think of
the tabloid headlines)
- a Chief disciple ( Maha  moggallana ) was murdered by 'unidentified
gangsters'.
-Competition and business interests had lead to many unpleasant scenarios...

We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of human mind , but they
are the same old fabrications .



Regds

 
2506 From:  
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of understanding, and that
gives power and strength.
This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca bala 'five powers', as
saddha bala, etc........


You have questioned whether this is the appropriate time to enter the monkhood,
I assume that this is regarding the declining standard of the monk life observed
 all over the world.
Months earlier in this group we talked about this topic, and members talked
about how aversion comes into play in their minds when they see misbehaving
monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is complaining about dosa..who's
complaining about lobha? ".
When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its prime quality and when the
propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure( aramas, arannas,
temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era , then that will be a subject to
 lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a subject for dosa.

In migajala sutta, buddha states the importance of the community life and
responsibilities of sangha.
Being a monk is not going into forest and meditate for jhanas...but a way of
life..a 'cariya' of 'brahma' in the 'sasana'..so the phrase 'sasana
brahmacariya'.
As per buddha the monks must train themselves diligently.
In the Kakacupama Sutta, he tells to the monks that they must practice metta
even when someone is removing limb by limb using a saw.

Rightly, 'Living Alone' is not shutting away a 'self' from 'other selves'., its
the living in the sangha community,where one gets the company  of the kalyana
mittas and ample amount of 'viveka' to observe the mind.

Rgds.





Sarah Procter Abbott  on 12/21/2000 07:12:04 PM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

Dear Gayan,

thanks for your consideration and comments on this
theme.

---  wrote: >
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past
> lives the people who were
> arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
> One interesting fact is they have observed the
> sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
> many times in previous buddhasasanas.
>
I'm sure the people on this list have also all been
monks in previous lives.  The question is whether it
is appropriate to become a monk now, in this life. The
arahats you mentioned no doubt lived many lives as lay
people and other beings too.


> Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very
> difficult, the aspirants must not be
> discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will
> certainly guide the 'person'
> towards the goal even it may not happen in the near
> future.
>
Really?  Would you mind explaining this connection.

> The lay people may have more opportunities to study
> the dhamma, but those
> accumulations will give them the strength for
> renunciation in the future( may
> not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got
> the strength at present.

Living the monk's life properly is more a matter of
understanding than of 'strength', whatever you mean by
this.
>
> Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of
> the birth in human plane over
> uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the
> holylife can be observed
> there.
>
Yes for those for whom the monk's life really is
appropriate (see my post to Mike).

Best rgds too,

Sarah






 
2507 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 5:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear leonardo,
I trust the  season is merry in Brazil. I met a Brazilian guy in
tokyo once - what he said was appealing- "in Brazil we live
life". Great to hear from you.
robert
--- Leonardo Neves  wrote: > Dear Amara,
> 
> Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu ! 
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "amara chay" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 2:26 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi
> 
> 
> > 
> > > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed
> > > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown
> > > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have
> > > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So,
> > > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than
> > > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying
> > > that they were without want, they just didn't *know*
> > > how much there was out there to want.
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Kyle,
> > 
> > I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the
> object of 
> > lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the
> Crown Prince 
> > had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed
> skill when 
> > his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth
> birthday. 
> >  His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land,
> his 
> > wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections.  No
> matter the age 
> > or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes
> of the 
> > senses) could only perceive or experience things only
> through the six 
> > dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we
> cling to so 
> > passionately appear to us only through these senses, no
> matter how 
> > complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even
> our useful 
> > computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva
> worlds, 
> > since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka
> (result of 
> > kamma) of good past kamma.  Yet devas have come to listen to
> the 
> > Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although
> generally 
> > they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of
> kusala in 
> > their worlds.
> > 
> >  
> > > I think the uninstructured had a very good
> > > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such
> > > superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING.
> > > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better
> > > understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly,
> > > than most students of Buddhism do today!!
> > 
> > 
> > Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside!  Witness the
> very busy 
> > schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate
> the 
> > rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas
> could 
> > arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed
> of light.
> > 
> >  
> > > The best example of an uninstructed individual who is
> > > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became
> > > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other
> > > religions, but... that does not mean that any of those
> > > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to
> > > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without
> > > instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not
> > > an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels,
> > > I do not know what is. :)
> > 
> > 
> > If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at
> all without 
> > instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an
> impossibly long 
> > period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa
> ever since 
> > he was predicted to be the Buddha one day.  In fact you
> could read 
> > about part of this in the beginning part one of our
> articles, 
> > 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the
> advanced 
> > section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.
> > 
> > Enjoy,
> > 
> > Amara
> 
> 



 
2508 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 5:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan, 
Well said. Some might think the stories of those like
Angulimala, who murdered 999 people, were exagerations.
However,when we compare the 20th century, with its pol pots,
hitlers, and Rwandas, Angulimala's killing spree seems almost
quaint. 
We tend to think we are more sophisticated than the ancients but
all we have is a few extra toys. 
Robert
---  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> Talking about people who lived in the past,
> I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from
> the present.
> 
> On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the
> tipitaka and other
> texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that
> we can observe ,
> feel, do or read  nowadays.
> Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people
> are a thousandfold
> greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient
> texts suggest
> otherwise.
> 
> On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage
> stories in texts
> which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we
> now see and observe.
> - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid
> murderers.
> - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young
> women ( think of
> the tabloid headlines)
> - a Chief disciple ( Maha  moggallana ) was murdered by
> 'unidentified
> gangsters'.
> -Competition and business interests had lead to many
> unpleasant scenarios...
> 
> We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of
> human mind , but they
> are the same old fabrications .
> 
> 
> 
> Regds
> 
> 



 
 
2509 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 9:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Mike

Your post raises 2 issues which, on reflection, I find
go very much to the heart of one’s practice.

People In The Buddha’s Time 
Vs. People Now
This is something which, as far as I know, is not
discussed in the texts (but then, nor was the original
question – ie. What is the need to study the
Abhidhamma if it’s all in the suttas anyway?).

I’m sure you are right when you say that people are
essentially the same now as in the Buddha’s time.  But
I believe that there is also one important difference,
namely that there were many, many people then with
much higher accumulated panna than any person has now.


Firstly, and this is admittedly an assumption on my
part, a Buddha (other than a Pacchekka Buddha) arises
in an age when there are many people who are capable
of understanding the teachings and ripe for attaining
enlightenment.  Looked at from another angle, the
chance to hear the teaching from the lips of a Buddha
is kusala vipaka of the very highest degree, vipaka
accruing to those who have developed panna of a very
high level.  And we do know from the commentaries that
after the Buddha’s death the teachings enter a long
period of decline, which obviously goes hand-in-hand
with a lessening grasp of those teachings.

However, one can also get an idea of this difference
in levels of understanding from the suttas themselves.
 In many suttas the Buddha asks his listeners ‘Is
seeing now permanent or impermanent?’  and they are
able to answer ‘Impermanent’  (and the same for
visible object, contact, the feeling arising from that
contact etc).  

These answers were not given from knowledge learnt but
from direct experience.  Otherwise the listeners would
not have been able to attain enlightenment during the
discourse.  They had levels of panna which understood
the momentary nature of consciousness.  How would we,
if we had not ever studied Dhamma before, have
answered the same questions?  Would the questions even
have had any meaning to us?

The Need To Study Abhidhamma 
In Order To Understand The Suttas
I agree with most of your comments on this point. 
Looking again at my post I realise that I did not
choose my words well, for which I must apologise.  I
certainly did not mean to suggest that knowledge by
direct experience of the whole or even a substantial
portion of the Abhidhamma was necessary for
enlightenment, either then or now.  And as you aptly
put it, it is depth of insight that breaks the chain
of conditioned origination.

My point was simply that, without a certain knowledge
of the Abhidhamma, we would not be capable of
understanding the suttas correctly, as in the example
of the passage referred to above.  Hence the need to
study (=know) abhidhamma to a certain level.  This
does not mean that there has to be study in the
commonly understood sense of the word.  We need to
acquire a certain amount of abhidhamma knowledge. 
This could be by discussion or reading posts on this
list, for example.

Interestingly, the subject of Abhidhamma study, and
the need to keep it in a proper perspective, was a
fairly constant theme of the discussions among our
group in Cambodia.  It was emphasised that the proper
purpose of studying Abhidhamma must be to help us
understand the true nature of the reality appearing at
he present moment.  Accordingly, only such knowledge
as can be related to one’s present understanding of
realities can be of real use.  Anything more is
intellectual understanding (and, more importantly, not
necessarily pariyatti) and is lost to us at death
anyway.  (Would others who were at the discussions
like to supplement here?)

As we are all beginners, the degree of Abhidhamma
knowledge that we can fully benefit from must actually
be of a fairly basic level.

It has always rather intrigued me that this group has
attracted the label of an Abhidhamma group.  Among
people I think of as real Abhidhamma scholars we are
perceived as being more concerned with the practice
than with the intricacies of the Abhidhamma as a
subject for study in its own right!

Mike, I hope I have addressed your points.  Please
feel free to draw my attention to anything I have not
covered.

Thanks a usual for bringing up the subject. There is a
lot more in this for further discussion.

Jonothan


-----------------------------------------------
--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> Jonothan,
> > In the Buddha's time, people were capable of
> > understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's
> words
> > without the aid of the Abhidhamma.  
> 
> Have people changed so much?  The world of the
> Buddha
> seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by
> the
> same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. 
> That
> they had the incomparable advantage of being
> directly
> instructed by thousands of arahats (can you
> IMAGINE?!)
> is clear.  That they were, otherwise, somehow,
> better
> equipped to understand is not so clear to me.  The
> Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination
> for
> those who came from other religious traditions that
> recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed
> to
> be in a minority), what advantage did those people
> have over those of the present time? 
> 
> > The same is not
> > true today.  Without the Abhidhamma, it would not
> > be
> > apparent to us reading the suttas that when the
> > Buddha
> > talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a
> > reality
> > that arises in a process of cittas, that is
> > momentary,
> > that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya,
> > and
> > so on.  
> 
> Do you think this (detailed understanding) was
> apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the
> Buddha's time?  This doesn't seem obvious to me from
> the suttas.  In fact, it isn't clear from my reading
> of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear,
> detailed understanding of every last minute detail
> of
> abhidhamma.  In fact, was this detailed
> understanding
> a necessary condition or component of nibbana?  Or
> was
> sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to
> break the chain of conditioned origination?
> 
> > Many of the realities mentioned in the
> > suttas
> > can only be understood today with the aid of the
> > Abhidhamma.
> > 
> > So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather
> > than
> > elective if we are to understand the teachings
> found
> > in the suttas.
> 
> I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious. 
> I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit
> of:
> 
> (a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas: 
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html
> 
> In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed
> skepticism, with the reference constantly returning
> to
> self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so
> is
> pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada
> (if
> I understand this term correctly).  So, to to the
> extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant
> insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the
> declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is
> necesary rather than elective if we are to
> understand
> the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet
> this
> criterion.  
> 
> The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the
> suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed
> understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a
> prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being
> dhammavinaya.  So this argument still seems
> dependent
> on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people
> were capable of understanding the deep meaning of
> the
> Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.'
> and
> 'The same is not true today.'  Since this is not
> verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see
> more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the
> suttas.
> 
> and (b) of the Four Great References of the
> Maha-Parinibbana Sutta:
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html.
> 
> "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a
> bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor
> with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but
> carefully studying the sentences word by word, one
> should trace them in the Discourses and verify them
> by
> the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the
> Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one
> must
> conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed
> One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that
> bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders,
> or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should
> reject it. But if the sentences concerned are
> traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the
> Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly,
> this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been
> well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that
> community, or by those elders, or by that elder..."
> 
> Again, we could accept the above declarations (only)
> to the extent that they can be verified by the
> discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the
> discourses.
> 
> Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to
> gainsay
> anything I've learned from this group.  In fact,
> even
> without satisfactory answers to these questions, I
> certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as
> I've been introduced to it here.  'My' understanding
> of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think
> improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've
> received and hope to continue to receive here.  
> 
> Still, I think that answers to these questions which
> satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great
> value
> to us and especially to those who are skeptical of
> this third of the tipitaka.
> 
> Sincere thanks for your patient consideration...
> 
> mike



 
2510 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:07pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > Talking about people who lived in the past,
> I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from the 
present.
> 
> On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the tipitaka 
and other
> texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that we can 
observe ,
> feel, do or read  nowadays.
> Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people are a 
thousandfold
> greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient texts 
suggest
> otherwise.
> 
> On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage stories 
in texts
> which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we now see 
and observe.
> - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid 
murderers.
> - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young women ( 
think of
> the tabloid headlines)
> - a Chief disciple ( Maha  moggallana ) was murdered by 
'unidentified
> gangsters'.
> -Competition and business interests had lead to many unpleasant 
scenarios...
> 
> We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of human mind 
, but they
> are the same old fabrications .


Dear Gayan,

I think you have made some astute observations, and would like to 
add just another thought: often in the narrow scope of our self 
centered lives we think that our problems are unique and impossibly 
insurmountable, and someone mentions some incident in the Tipitaka 
where worse has happened, with much details to teach us.  Still The 
most amazing events would inevitably be about nama and rupa, citta 
and cetasika and the six dvara and their aramana.  And the tireless 
reminders from the Buddha to be aware of whatever realities present 
themselves, until there could be full realization of things as they 
truly are.

May all those who study profit fully from the dhamma, anumodana with 
everyone's accumulating kusala,

Amara

 
2511 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan,

Yes, there are more of us, more stuff, more
enticements, but, aside from that, things haven't
really changed much have they...

mike

---  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> Talking about people who lived in the past,
> I dont think that the lifestyle was very much
> diffrent from the present.
> 
> On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories
> in the tipitaka and other
> texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest
> stories that we can observe ,
> feel, do or read  nowadays.
> Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that
> people are a thousandfold
> greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days,
> but ancient texts suggest
> otherwise.
> 
> On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and
> savage stories in texts
> which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest
> stories we now see and observe.
> - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times
> with paid murderers.
> - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder
> of young women ( think of
> the tabloid headlines)
> - a Chief disciple ( Maha  moggallana ) was murdered
> by 'unidentified
> gangsters'.
> -Competition and business interests had lead to many
> unpleasant scenarios...
> 
> We may think computers are stimulating new-found
> areas of human mind , but they
> are the same old fabrications .
> 
> 
> 
> Regds
> 
> 
> 



 
2512 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana

 
  Sir Gayan!

Glad to hear it's finally arrived!  I think maybe I
should interrupt my reading (NVG) to read this so we
can start discussing it.

What do you think?

mike

---  wrote:

> dear Mike sir
> 
> I received your dhamma dana on christmas day.
> {Mulapariyaya sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi}
> 
> May this punna kamma be a condition for the
> attaining of nibbana,
> May this punnakamma condition the company of Kalyana
> friends
> 
> 
> 
> Rgds.
> 
> 
> 



 
2513 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:25am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

---  "amara chay"  
wrote:

> If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all 
without 
> instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly 
long 
> period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever 
since 
> he was predicted to be the Buddha one day.  In fact you could read 
> about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles, 
> 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced 
> section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.

Thanks for pointing this out, I was remiss in my original response.  
I really don't know much about the Bodhisatta's history--does most of 
this material come from the Jatakas?  I'll take a look as 'Viraya-
Parami'--thanks again...mn

 
2514 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Robert and Gayan,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

I find all of both your remarks pertinent and
inspiring, in an odd sort of way--kind of depressing,
at first, but then inspiring of dispassion for the
unchanging ways of the world and also of viriya for
the Path.

Saadhu, Sirs,

mike

> Dear Gayan, 
> Well said. Some might think the stories of those
> like
> Angulimala, who murdered 999 people, were
> exagerations.
> However,when we compare the 20th century, with its
> pol pots,
> hitlers, and Rwandas, Angulimala's killing spree
> seems almost
> quaint. 
> We tend to think we are more sophisticated than the
> ancients but
> all we have is a few extra toys. 
> Robert
> ---  wrote: > 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear friends,
> > 
> > Talking about people who lived in the past,
> > I dont think that the lifestyle was very much
> diffrent from
> > the present.
> > 
> > On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic
> stories in the
> > tipitaka and other
> > texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest
> stories that
> > we can observe ,
> > feel, do or read  nowadays.
> > Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think
> that people
> > are a thousandfold
> > greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days,
> but ancient
> > texts suggest
> > otherwise.
> > 
> > On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody
> and savage
> > stories in texts
> > which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest
> stories we
> > now see and observe.
> > - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times
> with paid
> > murderers.
> > - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and
> murder of young
> > women ( think of
> > the tabloid headlines)
> > - a Chief disciple ( Maha  moggallana ) was
> murdered by
> > 'unidentified
> > gangsters'.
> > -Competition and business interests had lead to
> many
> > unpleasant scenarios...
> > 
> > We may think computers are stimulating new-found
> areas of
> > human mind , but they
> > are the same old fabrications .
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Regds
> > 



 
2515 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> Still the 
> most amazing events would inevitably be about nama
> and rupa, citta 
> and cetasika and the six dvara and their aramana. 
> And the tireless 
> reminders from the Buddha to be aware of whatever
> realities present 
> themselves, until there could be full realization of
> things as they 
> truly are.

Excellent!  Thanks for bringing this topic back to the
most important of perspectives, that of understanding
of the immediate.

Saadhu, Ma'am,

mike




 
2516 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 7:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Hi Robert,

        Yes, Brazil is, apart from the many problems an undeveloped countryhas, a
good place to live.

Metta,
Leonardo


> Dear leonardo,

> I trust the  season is merry in Brazil. I met a Brazilian guy in
> tokyo once - what he said was appealing- "in Brazil we live
> life". Great to hear from you.
> robert

 
2517 From: Kyle Kirk  <> 
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Maybe I can explain simply living like this....

Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse,
you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you
are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki
(the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief
of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that
there is nothing more than observing and trying and
*action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
putting into practice what is discussed. That is where
I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the
now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait
and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes"
that so many other religions are. 

=====

The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend...

and nothing is truly lost.



 
2518 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Kyle,
Yep, the Buddha sure explained how to understand this moment.
The more we understand it the simpler life becomes. Life indeed
becomes just one moment; and why cling to or fear such a brief
instant. But who is trying and observing?
Robert
--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Maybe I can
explain simply living like this....
> 
> Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse,
> you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
> aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you
> are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki
> (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief
> of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that
> there is nothing more than observing and trying and
> *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
> putting into practice what is discussed. That is where
> I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
> the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the
> now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait
> and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes"
> that so many other religions are. 
> 
> =====
> 
> The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not
> Descend...
> 
> and nothing is truly lost.
> 
> 



 
2519 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Mike,

---  wrote: > Dear Khun Amara,
> 
> --- > I really don't know much about the Bodhisatta's
history--does
> most of 
> this material come from the Jatakas?  I'll take a look as
> 'Viraya-
> Parami'--
______
You will find much in the Buddhavamsa and the commentary to it
(Madhuratthavilasini) translated as The Clarifier of Sweet
Meaning(PTS).
robert


 
2520 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Kyle,

--- Kyle Kirk <> wrote:

> Maybe I can explain simply living like this....
> 
> Instead of "Complicatedly" living. 

Yes, this sounds a lot like the 'proliferation'
(papanca) we were discussing recently.  If attention
is directed toward what is arising and subsiding at
the present moment, where is the complication?

> You do the
> reverse,
> you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
> aware of things, being concious. By "simply being"
> you
> are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu
> Suzuki
> (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. 

If I remember correctly, Suzuki-san was talking about
a Japanese zen term usually translated as 'suchness'
or 'thusness', (connotation genuineness, authenticity)
(I forget the Japanese)--one of my favorite features
of zen.  Also (if I understand this correctly) a Pali
word--tathaga--from which is derived 'Tathagata'.  I'm
very rusty on all this, so I'd be grateful for any
corrections.  All of that said, may I ask, who is it
who does the un-cluttering, and the focusing, being
aware, being conscious, "simply being" and observing? 
Is this something that can be willed into being?  If
so, who's doing the willing?

> My total belief
> of buddhism is in its simplicity. 

I'm very fond of simplicity, too--a little too fond, I
think!

> In the fact that
> there is nothing more than observing and trying and
> *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
> putting into practice what is discussed. That is
> where
> I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
> the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in
> the
> now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to
> "Wait
> and See - for after we die we are granted our
> wishes"
> that so many other religions are. 

Well, honestly, I think there are a lot of ways that
the buddhadhamma differs from religion.  Certainly,
though, the focus on present realitiy is very
to-the-point and, if not unique, at least unique in
its degree of importance...

mike


 
2521 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 0:49pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse,
> you un-clutter your life and make your focus being
> aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you
> are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki
> (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief
> of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that
> there is nothing more than observing and trying and
> *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually
> putting into practice what is discussed. That is where
> I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is
> the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the
> now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait
> and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes"
> that so many other religions are. 


Dear Kyle,

I think Robert and Mike pointed out the main purpose of the focus and 
mindfulness, they are the study of realities as they really are, 
which  are universally characterized by the tilakkhana (three 
characteristics) of impermanence, ever falling away and therefore non 
self (uncontrollable by anyone).  This is the reversal to me, in that 
other teachings focus on the person who studies and the outside world 
and its millions of theories and subject matter, the perspective is 
from the actual experiencing of anything at all by the person, from 
the most basic things such as temperature or the sight of the 
computer screen at this moment, to the most complicated quantum 
theories.  All the experienceable (is there such a word?) in the 
universe could only be known by us through the six dvara, even own 
selves.  Without thinking and memory of the thoughts and attachments, 
what are we?  Like all living beings or almost all, only nama and 
rupa.  Intellectually at least we could see that indeed there is no 
self, no matter where we search.  Even the most complicated and 
intricate teachings in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting 
to most people, is just to show that what we might take for a soul 
that is permanent from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just to 
show us that the mechanisms of the nama, comprising combinations of 
the citta (intelligence, the element that knows and experiences) and 
its cetasika (at least seven and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds 
of cetasika at any single instant) is in fact what it is: a 
succession of diverse citta arising from conditions and falling 
immediately away, under no one's control.  No matter the stories and 
connotations we have of realities experienced, it cannot be about 
anything other than the nama and rupa, that keep us involved day and 
night, life after lifetime, feeling so unique at each rebirth, 
unknowingly the slave of the most demanding self.  Until the study of 
the truth of things as they really are could reveal the ultimate 
selflessness that liberates us from ignorance completely.

It is so simple and yet so extremely difficult to realize fully and 
absolutely in experience, isn't it?  Yet the actual practice is again 
blindingly simple and beneficial, to understand that right 
understanding and awareness could arise at any instant and 
automatically accumulate, with the right conditions.  Our duty is 
simply to study as much as we can the characteristics of whatever 
appears at the present instant whether it were sight, seeing, 
hearing, sound, thinking, etc. all so different one from the other, 
and we would be on the path to more knowledge of things as they 
really are, and the experiencing clearly of non self.

That is why the Buddha teaches us to be brave and cheerful in the 
dhamma,

Amara

 
2522 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 1:06pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear all,

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused with this entangled 
sentence in my preceding message:


>   Even the most complicated and 
> intricate teachings in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting 
> to most people, is just to show that what we might take for a soul 
> that is permanent from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just 
to 
> show us that the mechanisms of the nama, comprising combinations of 
> the citta (intelligence, the element that knows and experiences) and 
> its cetasika (at least seven and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds 
> of cetasika at any single instant) is in fact what it is: a 
> succession of diverse citta arising from conditions and falling 
> immediately away, under no one's control.  


Which should read: Even the most complicated and intricate teachings 
in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting to most people, is 
just to show that what we might take for a soul that is permanent 
from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just the mechanisms of 
the nama, comprising combinations of the citta (intelligence, the 
element that knows and experiences) and its cetasika (at least seven 
and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds of cetasika at any single 
instant).  What we take for the soul is in fact a succession of 
diverse citta arising from conditions and falling immediately away, 
under no one's control.  

Hope this is more comprehensible,

Amara

 
2523 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:29pm
Subject: List 1st anniversary

 
  Dear Friends,

This week is the 1st anniversary of this discussion
list. We're all newbies to it (not just Mike!) even
though I gather there are some professional listies
helping us with their expertise!

Speaking for myself, I've found the list has grown
from strength to strength over the year and it has
been a real inspiration to me. Much more than that. It
has given my study, consideration and understanding of
dhamma the real boost and impetus they badly needed.
In fact it has been the best boost they've had in many
years. 

I'd like to sincerely thank all of you for your
contributions and interest in the list. Even those of
you who prefer to lie low (or are too busy to do
otherwise), thank you for just being with us and
listening in.

Wishing everyone a very happy and healthy New Year and
may the consideration of dhamma prompted on the list
be a condition for panna to develop.

Best wishes and metta,
Sarah




 
 
2524 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:41pm
Subject: Re: List 1st anniversary

 
  > This week is the 1st anniversary of this discussion
> list. We're all newbies to it (not just Mike!) even
> though I gather there are some professional listies
> helping us with their expertise!
> 
> Speaking for myself, I've found the list has grown
> from strength to strength over the year and it has
> been a real inspiration to me. Much more than that. It
> has given my study, consideration and understanding of
> dhamma the real boost and impetus they badly needed.
> In fact it has been the best boost they've had in many
> years. 
> 
> I'd like to sincerely thank all of you for your
> contributions and interest in the list. Even those of
> you who prefer to lie low (or are too busy to do
> otherwise), thank you for just being with us and
> listening in.
> 
> Wishing everyone a very happy and healthy New Year and
> may the consideration of dhamma prompted on the list
> be a condition for panna to develop.
> 
> Best wishes and metta,
> Sarah


Dear Sarah, and dhamma friends,

Happy anniversary to the list and all its members!  Thanks and 
anumodana with you, Jonothan and Robert for starting it and keeping 
the discussions going as well as contributing to the beneficial study 
of the dhamma.  It has been a wonderful place to meet friends with 
common interests with whom to discuss this most intricate matter, 
which is not so easily found elsewhere.  May all the supreme kusala 
the Buddha intended in his teachings benefit all those who study, 
this holiday season and always,

Amara

 
2525 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 0:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana

 
  Dear Sir Mike ,

Sounds good, but I dont like the idea of you interrupting your reading of NVG,
Let me say that I will be ready when you finish reading NVG.

I have a reference of the Work by Ven.Nanananda, which Ven.Bodhi refers to in
his book.
We can discuss it in the future,

Thanks

 
2526 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 1:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana

 
  Dear Sir Gayan,

Very well, sir--I must admit, Abhidhamma in Daily Life
is very difficult to put down.  I look forward to
discussing Mulapariyaya soon...

mike

---  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Sir Mike ,
> 
> Sounds good, but I dont like the idea of you
> interrupting your reading of NVG,
> Let me say that I will be ready when you finish
> reading NVG.
> 
> I have a reference of the Work by Ven.Nanananda,
> which Ven.Bodhi refers to in
> his book.
> We can discuss it in the future,
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 



 
2527 From:  
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 4:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List 1st anniversary

 
  Dear Friends,

I wish the group a happy birthday , a happy anniversary , a happy new year

lets keep on helping each other do what is needed to be done , to finish what is
 needed to be finished.

Dear moderators,

Thank you very much for pioneering this and serving the purpose, so that these
dynamically like-minds of a group who have been mothers,fathers,brothers,sisters
 of each other for countless times could have yet another chance to help each
other.


Rgds

=^-^=
  _/\_

 
2528 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 9:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Gayan,

---  wrote: >  
> 
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of
> understanding, and that
> gives power and strength.
> This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca
> bala 'five powers', as
> saddha bala, etc........


These 5 cetasikas (mental factors) including
understanding become the panca bala only when they are
firm and unshakeable powers...For example, the saddha
(confidence) experienced by the sotapanna is bala, as
I understand it, because there is no turning back, the
right path is established and the confidence in the
right views of the Buddha's teachings cannot be
skaken. No more wrong view of self...Meanwhile however
much confidence it seems we have now, it is not firmly
established, it is not a bala.> 
> 
> You have questioned whether this is the appropriate
> time to enter the monkhood,
> I assume that this is regarding the declining
> standard of the monk life observed
>  all over the world.
> Months earlier in this group we talked about this
> topic, and members talked
> about how aversion comes into play in their minds
> when they see misbehaving
> monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is
> complaining about dosa..who's
> complaining about lobha? ".
> When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its
> prime quality and when the
> propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure(
> aramas, arannas,
> temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era ,
> then that will be a subject to
>  lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a
> subject for dosa.

Good points here.  I think we need to be more
concerned about our own understanding (or lack of it)
and kilesa  than about the others'. We can see how
difficult it is to develop panna at this moment and so
it is for everyone. Whether we live as a monk or a
layperson, we're bound to be amognst those with wrong
views and unwholesome livelihoods. We've been having
discussion about this, as you say, and more recently
about society and whether it has declined. However
true and interesting the stories are, in reality they
are only stories and not the realities which are
appearing through the doorways as Amara reminded us.

Whether it's the right time to become a monk, I think,
should be more a matter of whether the person can
follow the 227 rules happily and easily and
contentedly whatever the conditions around, 'seeing
danger in the slightest faults', guarding 'the doors
of his sense faculties', 'endowed with mindfulness and
clear comprehension'. Are the saddha and panna
unshakeable?
> 
> In migajala sutta, buddha states the importance of
> the community life and
> responsibilities of sangha.
> Being a monk is not going into forest and meditate
> for jhanas...but a way of
> life..a 'cariya' of 'brahma' in the 'sasana'..so the
> phrase 'sasana
> brahmacariya'.
> As per buddha the monks must train themselves
> diligently.
> In the Kakacupama Sutta, he tells to the monks that
> they must practice metta
> even when someone is removing limb by limb using a
> saw

Well these conditions would certainly be a test!.
> 
> Rightly, 'Living Alone' is not shutting away a
> 'self' from 'other selves'., its
> the living in the sangha community,where one gets
> the company  of the kalyana
> mittas and ample amount of 'viveka' to observe the
> mind.

I might just add that whether living in the sangha
community or lay community, quietly on one's own in a
hut or in a busy city, we all need to learn to live
alone with seeing, hearing and all the other realities
appearing....no beings anywhere. Yes viveka (mental
detachment) goes hand in hand with this living
alone...

Thanks also for your appreciation of the list and your
very helpful contributions, Gayan.  Can we say that we
can find kalyana mittas in surprising places, like on
the internet?

Best wishes & metta,
Sarah



2529 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 9:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,
See my comments below:
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > Dear
Gayan,
> 
> ---  wrote: >  
> > 
> > Dear Sarah,
> > 
> > As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of
> > understanding, and that
> > gives power and strength.
> > This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca
> > bala 'five powers', as
> > saddha bala, etc........
> 
> 
> These 5 cetasikas (mental factors) including
> understanding become the panca bala only when they are
> firm and unshakeable powers...For example, the saddha
> (confidence) experienced by the sotapanna is bala, as
> I understand it, because there is no turning back, the
> right path is established and the confidence in the
> right views of the Buddha's teachings cannot be
> skaken. No more wrong view of self...Meanwhile however
> much confidence it seems we have now, it is not firmly
> established, it is not a bala.> 
_______
yes the bala only arise when vipassana is very strong. 
___

> > You have questioned whether this is the appropriate
> > time to enter the monkhood,
> > I assume that this is regarding the declining
> > standard of the monk life observed
> >  all over the world.
> > Months earlier in this group we talked about this
> > topic, and members talked
> > about how aversion comes into play in their minds
> > when they see misbehaving
> > monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is
> > complaining about dosa..who's
> > complaining about lobha? ".
> > When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its
> > prime quality and when the
> > propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure(
> > aramas, arannas,
> > temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era ,
> > then that will be a subject to
> >  lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a
> > subject for dosa.
> 
> Good points here.  I think we need to be more
> concerned about our own understanding (or lack of it)
> and kilesa  than about the others'. We can see how
> difficult it is to develop panna at this moment and so
> it is for everyone. Whether we live as a monk or a
> layperson, we're bound to be amognst those with wrong
> views and unwholesome livelihoods. We've been having
> discussion about this, as you say, and more recently
> about society and whether it has declined. However
> true and interesting the stories are, in reality they
> are only stories and not the realities which are
> appearing through the doorways as Amara reminded us.
> 
> Whether it's the right time to become a monk, I think,
> should be more a matter of whether the person can
> follow the 227 rules happily and easily and
> contentedly whatever the conditions around
__________
,there is one sutta where the buddha points out that some monks
live the Brahmacariya with difficulty, pain and tears- BUT they
still live it and can attain.  
______

'seeing
> danger in the slightest faults', guarding 'the doors
> of his sense faculties', 'endowed with mindfulness and
> clear comprehension'. Are the saddha and panna
> unshakeable?
_____________
Yes the main point may be whether being a monk conditions more
genuine satipatthana, more guarding of the doors, than when as a
layman. If it doesn't why be a monk? 
Robert
> 


 
2530 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Tai chi and akaido

 
  Dear Jody,

I meant to make a few comments in response to this
part of your message but was busy at the
time....apologies for the delay!
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: >
Kia ora koutou (hello all),
>
> I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and
> finding it
> an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully,
> I can also
> compliment it with additional practices of
> samatha-vispassana.

I also enjoy doing tai chi but for various reasons I'm
a lot lazier about it this year than I was last year.
I think it's a really excellent kind of exercise and
it has tremendous health benefits, especially when one
starts to experience the 'chi' flowing through the
body. (Kyle, I'm sure similar comments can be made
about akaido, but I'm less familiar with it.)

Conventionally we may say that there is awareness
while doing this practice or akaido or yoga or slow
walking or whatever. The question is, is it really
sati? Sati only arises with kusala cittas (wholesome
consciousness) such as at moments of giving or
observing sila or of right understanding. When there
is  concentrating on the 'chi' or the movements of tai
chi, this is not sati for example. None of this is to
suggest there cannot be sati, even satipatthana while
we are doing tai chi or any other action, but there is
no intrinsic reason that I'm aware of as to why it
would be more likely to arise at this time.

If we have the idea of somehow separating and finding
special times for sati or the development of samatha
or vipassana, it seems there is an idea of control or
self  lurking there.....
 
> One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the
> mind, and the 
> the development of wrong view i.e. to view the
> 6-doors as a
> whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that
> promote one static
> reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner
> chatter,
> or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to
> take daily accounts
> of my experiences in meditation and study, as a
> means of introspection
> and retrospection. I have tentatively started
> documenting thoughts
> concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these
> realities to
> samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be
> recommended? If
> so, is there a conventional manner of such "self"
> study? 


As Robert asked, why do you want to stop the chatter
and clinging....?? Doesn't this show more clinging and
lack of detachment to what is conditioned already at
this moment? It takes courage to develop
understanding! I was just listening to an old tape
with Khun Sujin and she was talking about how we take
our stories seriously because of the clinging to a
view of self. Don't we also take all our other
experiences seriously because they are 'mine' and
isn't this what introspection and retrospection are
about? How about developing understanding of a reality
now and then it's gone, history, never to reappear
again. No need to cling to it or analyse it. There's
another reality appearing now!

In samatha, the key is to understand how one of the 40
objects calms the mind at this moment and in
vipassana, the key is to understand precisely what the
realities are which can be the objects of panna (rt
understanding) now. 

The more this understanding develops, the less we need
to compartmentalise our lives in terms of the
practice. We can follow our inclinations easily and
contentedly, knowing that sati can and will arise
whenever there are the right conditions without any
idea of control or special time and place for
practice.

Meanwhile, keep up the tai-chi and whatever else you
enjoy!

Best wishes & metta,
Sarah>

p.s. Kyle- a very belated BIG WELCOME to the list -
I'll pick up on the simplicity later!!



 
2531 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List 1st anniversary

 
  Dear Sarah and Friends,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

It would be difficult to overstate the importance of
this list to me in the last year and, for that matter,
in this life.  With heartfelt thanks to my admirable
friends, here are a couple of anniversary presents:

"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was
living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town
named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed
One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed
One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven.
Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the
holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends,
companions, & colleagues." 

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Having
admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues
is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk
has admirable people as friends, companions, &
colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the
noble eightfold path."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-2.html

However, having just endured an american presidential
election(!), I feel obliged to give equal time to a
cautionary counterpoint (since 'no one's complaining
about the lobha'--thanks, Sarah!)(I prefer the PTS
translation, 'Born of Affection'):

"Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are
born from one who is dear, come springing from one who
is dear."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn87.html

I just want to say thanks to all of you (especially
Robert, who introduced us) for being my 'admirable
friends' for who knows how long? and to say, 'Happy No
Year'--after all, what's a year but a concept?

Cheers!

mike

  
 



 
2532 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  > Just to update you on my efforts to digitize the tapes
> Robert sent me:  I still haven't overcome the
> technological hurdles to getting these onto the web. 


Dear Mike,

Anumodana with all your efforts, and I meant to ask you about the 
glossary, and whether you would like more updated versions of this 
work in progress?  Or would you rather wait till we are finished 
adding entries from the 'Summary' and the 'Paccaya'?  Both are nearly 
done, by the way.  'Summary' should be ready to go to the press in 
January.  The glossary a little later.  Perhaps you could send us 
some ideas of how the latter should be presented so it might be handy 
to use and carry around, by the way.

Thanks in advance and anumodana for everything,

Amara

 
2533 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 0:06am
Subject: Re: List 1st anniversary

 
  > 'Happy No
> Year'--after all, what's a year but a concept?


Dear Mike,

And happy no year, no century and no millenium to you too, Sir!

Amara

 
2534 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> 
> Anumodana with all your efforts, and I meant to ask
> you about the 
> glossary, and whether you would like more updated
> versions of this 
> work in progress?  

Well, this is good question.  I think it makes most
sense to wait till it's more or less complete, to
avoid multiple revisions.  Do you expect this to be
done soon after completion of 'Summary' and the
'Paccaya'?

> Or would you rather wait till we
> are finished 
> adding entries from the 'Summary' and the 'Paccaya'?
>  Both are nearly 
> done, by the way.  'Summary' should be ready to go
> to the press in 
> January.  The glossary a little later.  Perhaps you
> could send us 
> some ideas of how the latter should be presented so
> it might be handy 
> to use and carry around, by the way.

I'd like that--if you like, I could try formatting it
in 'Word' for printing from a printer.  I haven't
actually done this, but I do think Word has this
capability, as well as indexing etc.
 
> Thanks in advance and anumodana for everything,

Thanks to YOU for the opportunity to be of service!

mike


 
2535 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 3:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  Mike,
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah, Jon, Khun Amara et al.,

> > Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could
> post
> > the titles of books available.
> 
> Yes, please!  And thanks again...
> 

Mike, just on this point...As we (Jonothan and myself)
never know what books are in print etc, you could
either go back to the list Sukin made earlier this
month of books at the Foundation and order from that
or just order one of each of the books available and
pass on copies of any you already have!

Sarah (or Ms P.A. as you s'times prefer!)


 
2537 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 5:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  Dear Ms P-A.,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Mike, just on this point...As we (Jonothan and
> myself)
> never know what books are in print etc, you could
> either go back to the list Sukin made earlier this
> month of books at the Foundation and order from that
> or just order one of each of the books available and
> pass on copies of any you already have!

Thank ye, Ma'am--will do!

mn


 
2538 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:36am
Subject: Another booklet!

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

The latest booklet printed by the foundation, 'The Master Avengers' 
is now translated and uploaded in the advanced section, 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  The discussion is about a kind of 
superstition among those who believe in rebirth without 
understanding the mechanisms involved, making it a sort of lighter 
reading for the end of the year.  Chapters 4&5 of 'Abhidhamma' also 
up, have a great year's end!

Amara

 
2539 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 1:56am
Subject: Study time!

 
  Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,

I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments
in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly
a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be
concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. So if I have
appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.

With metta, Jody.

 
 
2540 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 5:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time !

 
  Hi friends,

> Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
> 
> I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments
> in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly
> a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be
> concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. 

> So if I have  appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.
> 
> With metta, Jody.

    Nor do I :-)) 

Metta,
Leonardo

 
2541 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:37am
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  ---  "Leonardo Neves" wrote:
> 
> Hi friends,
> 
> > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
> > 
> > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments
> > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly
> > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be
> > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. 
> 
> > So if I have  appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.
> > 
> > With metta, Jody.
> 
>     Nor do I :-)) 
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo

Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!!

I was just thinking of you!  And wondering how you said this in your 
languages!

Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings,

Amara

 
2542 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:49am
Subject: Feliz Ano Novo !

 
  Dear Amara,  Jody and friends,


> Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!!
 > I was just thinking of you!  And wondering how you said this in your 
> languages!
 > Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings,
 > Amara

Feliz Ano Novo (in portuguese) 

Thank you every one of you - wonderful teachers !

Metta,
Leonardo

 
2544 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 11:09am
Subject: Re: Feliz Ano Novo !

 
  > Feliz Ano Novo (in portuguese) 
> 
> Thank you every one of you - wonderful teachers !
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo


Dear Leonardo,

Personally I think we are all students as well as teachers here, 
this list has been a wonderful learning experience for me because of 
everyone's perspective of the dhamma around us that gave me fresh 
views every time I read a message.  As Khun Jack says of his 
California group, we all help one another in this intricate matter as 
best we can, and I have learned a lot as well as enjoyed with much 
chanda, lobha and certainly some mudita all our studies towards right 
understanding.  I can only repeat myself, anumodana to all those who 
study and may you benefit fully from the Dhamma taught by the Buddha,

Amara

 
2545 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time!

 
  Dear Jody,

I can think of few subjects more worthy of
concentration.  Best wishes!

mike


--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote:
> Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
> 
> I just wanted to thank you for your constructive
> comments
> in regards to the last few emails I made. There is
> certainly
> a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will
> be
> concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. So if I
> have
> appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not.
> 
> With metta, Jody.
> 



 
2546 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time !

 
  Glad to hear it, Leonardo!

Feliz novo ano!

mn

--- Leonardo Neves  wrote:
> 
> Hi friends,
> 
> > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others,
> > 
> > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive
> comments
> > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is
> certainly
> > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I
> will be
> > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. 
> 
> > So if I have  appeared to have "virtually"
> vanished, I have not.
> > 
> > With metta, Jody.
> 
>     Nor do I :-)) 
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo
> 
> 
> 



 
2547 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another booklet!

 
  Dear Amara,
anumodana.
Wishing you ever grow in the Dhamma.

metta,
dhamma study group bogor

----- Original Message ----- 
From: amara chay 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 11:36 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another booklet!


> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> 
> The latest booklet printed by the foundation, 'The Master Avengers' 
> is now translated and uploaded in the advanced section, 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  The discussion is about a kind of 
> superstition among those who believe in rebirth without 
> understanding the mechanisms involved, making it a sort of lighter 
> reading for the end of the year.  Chapters 4&5 of 'Abhidhamma' also 
> up, have a great year's end!
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 

 
2548 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !

 
  Dear Group,
As someone said there is really no New Year, time is a concept.
There are however namas and rupas arising and falling in a conti
nuous series that is irreversible. And so the idea of time is
needed to explain and comprehend dhamma (not to mention living
our lives). When we wish goodwill to others it is kusala,
wholesome. 
It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , another concept, one that
comes around quicker, it seems, as time goes by. When sarah came
up with the idea of starting this group I thought it would be
worthwhile but didn't have too many expectations. I figured if
one person outside the original members got something out of it
that would be fine.These expectations have been much exceeded.
Things started well and slowly got better. Betty joined. Then
Leonardo came along and the list took off; some of the most
useful discussions yet. Soon after Alex joined and then Mike:
both so encouraging. I was very thankful when Kom came along
with his wide knowledge. Gayan joined up and pleasantly
surprised us with the details of vangceti. So nice to have
Rodjali from indonesia - a long time friend of Nina van Gorkom. 
A real plus was having Jim Anderson sign on, a very
well-informed member indeed. There are  many others too: Joe,
Jody, O, JimW, dhd, sotujana, Mary, Michael J and others who
have contributed and helped us all.
Thank you, I hope we can meet someday, maybe in Thailand? If
anyone is planning a trip I'll be in Bangkok for a week in early
August 2001. In any event looking forwrd to hearing from you all
on the web.
Kindest regards
Robert


 
2549 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !

 
  Dear Robert, and all dhamma friends,
Anumodana for your effort in the Path to Freedom.

The only real time we can perceive is 'this moment' which will fall
immediately.

metta,
selamat rodjali

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !


> Dear Group,
> As someone said there is really no New Year, time is a concept.
> There are however namas and rupas arising and falling in a conti
> nuous series that is irreversible. And so the idea of time is
> needed to explain and comprehend dhamma (not to mention living
> our lives). When we wish goodwill to others it is kusala,
> wholesome.
> It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , another concept, one that
> comes around quicker, it seems, as time goes by. When sarah came
> up with the idea of starting this group I thought it would be
> worthwhile but didn't have too many expectations. I figured if
> one person outside the original members got something out of it
> that would be fine.These expectations have been much exceeded.
> Things started well and slowly got better. Betty joined. Then
> Leonardo came along and the list took off; some of the most
> useful discussions yet. Soon after Alex joined and then Mike:
> both so encouraging. I was very thankful when Kom came along
> with his wide knowledge. Gayan joined up and pleasantly
> surprised us with the details of vangceti. So nice to have
> Rodjali from indonesia - a long time friend of Nina van Gorkom.
> A real plus was having Jim Anderson sign on, a very
> well-informed member indeed. There are  many others too: Joe,
> Jody, O, JimW, dhd, sotujana, Mary, Michael J and others who
> have contributed and helped us all.
> Thank you, I hope we can meet someday, maybe in Thailand? If
> anyone is planning a trip I'll be in Bangkok for a week in early
> August 2001. In any event looking forwrd to hearing from you all
> on the web.
> Kindest regards
> Robert
>

 

 
2551 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 5:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo !

 
  Thank you Rodjali,
I should have mentioned in the last post that our talks here are
having an effect elsewhere: Gayans vangeti's are discussed at
ongoing meetings with Acharn sujin, acharn somporn and other
members of the pali text committee. I forgot to mention also
Sukin and his help and encouragement. (Shin, Ivan, Pinna, Alan
weller and others were original members)
Robert
--- selamat  wrote:
> Dear Robert, and all dhamma friends,
> Anumodana for your effort in the Path to Freedom.
> 
> The only real time we can perceive is 'this moment' which will
> fall
> immediately.
> 
> metta,
> selamat rodjali
> 


 
2552 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 6:27pm
Subject: Re: Feliz Ano Novo !

 
  > It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , 

Happy birthday in advance, Robert!

And signing off for the year, see you all next year, decade, century, 
and millenium!!!

Amara

 
2553 From: A T   
Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 9:26pm
Subject: Happy New Year!

 
  Dear friends,

Chu'c Mu+`ng Na(m Mo+'i!
Happy New Year (in Vietnamese)!

May you all have a happy new year, a peaceful new century, and a wonderful 
new millennium!

Thank you for this fabulous list...  :-)))

Alex Tran



 
2554 From: bruce   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:36am
Subject: new year's greeting where it belongs

 
  robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack of mindfullness in
posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, and i apologize...this
was certainly meant for dsg:

=====================



happy dark part of the year to all of you in the northern hemisphere, and
happy rebirthday in advance to robert...

i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly after being quite engaged
by all the discussion threads...and at the moment i'm in no shape to put
together a long or coherent reply to all the posts i've been saving...still
have lots of questions for you all....the reason being: i am undergoing
severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely concentrate on these sentences
long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours with no cigarettes and
counting, and it is some genuine akusala vipaka...needless to say, this is
an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the moment: it
seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current unpleasant feelings
that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and much nastier
than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as they arise and
pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly that it's
useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow by...

my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha and upadana
head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment....

i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the posts, and
getting more useful information than i thought possible...

thanks for so much good discussion...

mettacittena
bruce

 
 
2555 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs

 
  Dear Bruce,
I've been hanging out at d-l for the last few days so saw it
there. Thank you. BTW I left your name off the list of people
who have helped the discussion - no offense just a sign of
ageing memory!
Nice to see you so conversant already with some of the pali we
use here.
Good luck on giving up the 'baccy. My father tried for years to
give up and eventually managed to cut down to about 6 or 8 a day
- it is sure a hard thing to stop.
You might notice that although concentration is now scattered
sati can still come in and be aware of brief moments - so that
for instance unpleasant sensations can be seen as anatta(not
you). If you can do this it would be valuable.
Robert
--- bruce  wrote:
> robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack of
> mindfullness in
> posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, and i
> apologize...this
> was certainly meant for dsg:
> 
> =====================
> 
> 
> 
> happy dark part of the year to all of you in the northern
> hemisphere, and
> happy rebirthday in advance to robert...
> 
> i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly after being
> quite engaged
> by all the discussion threads...and at the moment i'm in no
> shape to put
> together a long or coherent reply to all the posts i've been
> saving...still
> have lots of questions for you all....the reason being: i am
> undergoing
> severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely concentrate on
> these sentences
> long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours with no
> cigarettes and
> counting, and it is some genuine akusala vipaka...needless to
> say, this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the
> moment: it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current
> unpleasant feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and
> much nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as
> they arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly
> that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow
> by...
> 
> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha
> and upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment....
> 
> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the
> posts, and
> getting more useful information than i thought possible...
> 
> thanks for so much good discussion...
> 
> mettacittena
> bruce
> 



 
2556 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 10:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs

 
  Bruce!

Great to hear from you!  Good luck with the
withdrawals, and Happy New Year!

mn
--- bruce  wrote:
> robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack
> of mindfullness in
> posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy,
> and i apologize...this
> was certainly meant for dsg:
> 
> =====================
> 
> 
> 
> happy dark part of the year to all of you in the
> northern hemisphere, and
> happy rebirthday in advance to robert...
> 
> i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly
> after being quite engaged
> by all the discussion threads...and at the moment
> i'm in no shape to put
> together a long or coherent reply to all the posts
> i've been saving...still
> have lots of questions for you all....the reason
> being: i am undergoing
> severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely
> concentrate on these sentences
> long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours
> with no cigarettes and
> counting, and it is some genuine akusala
> vipaka...needless to say, this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to
> understand the moment: it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my
> current unpleasant feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and
> lasting, and much nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the
> feelings as they arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so
> swiftly that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current
> flow by...
> 
> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal
> with tanha and upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the
> moment....
> 
> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading
> all the posts, and
> getting more useful information than i thought
> possible...
> 
> thanks for so much good discussion...
> 
> mettacittena
> bruce
> 
> 



 
2557 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 3:15pm
Subject: master avengers

 
  Dear Amara,
I read over the article about 'master avengers'.
http://www.dhammastudy.com/master.html
I guess few westerners have heard of this idea, but it was very
useful for the explanations about kamma. 
I think it could probably go into the intermediate section
rather than the advanced.
Robert


 
2558 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 8:45pm
Subject: Another 'Word'

 
  Dear friends,

Varee has chosen another passage for the section 'A Few Words' in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> called 'Vipassana', uploaded today.  

She has also finished the revision of the 'Summary' for printing in 
book form today.  We will be sending the discs to the printer's soon 
and hope you will anumodana with the latest pledge to help with the 
printing from Shinlin, for 20,000 bhts.  She has also accepted to 
help with the accounting so if anyone would still like to contribute 
anything towards the printing, please contact her.  Anumodana for all 
the kusala cetana from all those who have already donated, and to 
Shin for her help with the accounting, may any beneficence the book 
might bring be cause for kusala citta to arise and anumodana for 
everyone,

Amara

 
2559 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Re: master avengers

 
  > I think it could probably go into the intermediate section
> rather than the advanced.


Dear Robert,

Thanks for the comments, will move it immediately.  Please remember 
to click on reload/refresh when checking on the related pages,

Amara

 
2560 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Re: new year's greeting where it belongs

 
  > .needless to say, 
this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the 
moment: it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current unpleasant 
feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and much 
nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as they 
arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow by...
> 
> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha and 
upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment....
> 
> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the posts, 
and
> getting more useful information than i thought possible...


Dear Bruce, 

I am so glad you found the posts helpful for what you are undergoing, 
the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one gets distracted by 
the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call anything that 
distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating knowledge of 
things as they really are.  But because it brings the highest good, 
the accompanying kusala must arise as well, inevitably, and it is 
always pleasant to experience, although like all else in life it 
falls away and would not arise when one has lobha for it, in other 
words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance to its arising.  
Knowing this, being mindful would be for the increase in knowledge 
itself, while one studies things that arises from conditions and fall 
immediately away, realities that are not the self, even the greatest 
torture cannot stay 24 hr.s a day, with so many other realities 
arising in between through all other dvaras.  As you read this 
message, certainly realities appear through the eyes, as visible 
object, so different from sounds and smells.  Thinking as well as 
countless bhavanga (life continuums) arise and fall away as well, the 
body sense of touching various objects related to the computer, etc.  
And as you observed, all could be the objects of mindfulness of 
things as they really are could lead to the separation of physical 
from mental sufferings, which might help you keep from shooting the 
second arrow at yourself, since the first arrow of physical suffering 
could not be avoided as the result of kamma.  Worrying and 
preoccupation about any situation is considered the second arrow (and 
2nd, 3rd, ad infinitum) in the Buddhist sense, as Khun Sujin 
explained in one of the latest booklets uploaded in the advanced 
section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, 'Birth, Age, Illness and 
Death' from which I quote:  

While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could 
not die.  No matter what we do, we could not.  Generally, dukkha of 
the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there 
would be worries.  The illness would be like being stabbed by the 
first arrow.  However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second 
arrow that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse.  No 
 matter how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily 
dukkha, since to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito 
bites.  If there were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, 
just the first one. 

To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly 
see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also.  When 
there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and 
trouble to it.  To worry is completely useless, long trains of 
thought that does not help in any way.  When there is illness we 
should take care of it without wasting time worrying about it. 
(End quote)

The student of the dhamma would realize and profit from any situation 
through the study of the truth, and accumulate more knowledge of 
realities as they really are, gradually.  Anumodana in your 
perseverance in studying, and may kusala keep you and give you 
courage, 

Amara

 
2561  
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  Dear friends,

   Recently, I've become somewhat invisible.  Now, I'm back to those 
wonderful books thanks to O, Robert, Mike, and those bookstores.  
When having a question, I ask for help again.  :-))) What can I do 
without your wonderful knowledge?  :-)))

   Amara, please post the address of the person who accepts checks to 
print books for me.  Thank you, Amara.

   Again, Happy New Year.

Anumodana to all of your good work,
Alex Tran

 
2562 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  > Now, I'm back to those 
> wonderful books thanks to O, Robert, Mike, and those bookstores.  


Happy New Year, Alex! 

Anumodana in all you studies!!  And for wanting to contribute to the 
printing of the 'Summary', I hope you have had time to read some of 
new booklets in our website as well?


>    Amara, please post the address of the person who accepts checks 
to 
> print books for me.  


Shinlin is here on the list, her e-mail is <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026036129208>.  
I'm not sure to which address she would prefer you used to send 
letters, will ask her tomorrow unless she sees this message before 
that and tells you herself.  (It's past 10 pm. here is Bkk.)  It's 
really great to hear from you, I almost wish your studies give you 
lots of questions just so we could discuss them!

Amara

 
2563 From:  
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 0:51am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Hi Mike (et al.)

Long ago, you wrote in response to an earlier post of mine:
> As far as I know, fear (as a form of dosa and so a
> paramattha dhamma) can certainly be the object of even
> profound insight.  I just wanted to comment on this
> because it reminded me of something much more mundane
> that I've noticed myself.  When I've explained a
> little buddhadhamma to my non-buddhist friends, it's
> always the smartest ones who react most quickly and
> with the strongest aversion.  I think this is because
> those with the quickest intuition realize suddenly the
> extent to which everything they've ever believed in is
> called into question.  
I've noticed the same things. Curiously, among those smartest, the 
most spiritual-minded (Christian, Jewish, eclectic) may tend to be 
even MORE swift and averse to buddhadhamma than the more secular!

On a slightly different note, I wrote:
> > In 
> > instances like these, some questions that come up
> > might be: Is fear 
> > unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear
> > presents itself to the 
> > mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and
> > adhitana), it seems to 
> > me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant
> > feeling or even fear 
> > when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a
> > reliable indication 
> > that the practice has gone astray.

To which you responded: 
> I don't mean argue with your point here, though I'm
> not sure I understand it.  I think of fear as just
> aversion toward an idea of some future
> unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with
> domanassa.  The only forms of aversion I can remember
> the Buddha commending were shame and fear with regard
> to misconduct

My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at some point 
in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the right 
direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that the 
practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice has 
advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear" 
(bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of fear is a 
signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the 
meditator has indeed made good progress. Another example is Buddha's 
account of the day of his enlighenment. In the forest, he was 
assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded wisely each time fear 
arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was was so near to 
enlightenment.

If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than aversion, then it is a 
vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear rather than its mere 
arising that is a more proper guide to whether the practice has gone 
awry.

 
2564 From:  
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 1:13am
Subject: Re: Hello all

 
  Hi Jody. Thanks for another of your delightful posts. I believe all 
the suttas have been translated into English and the vinaya too. In 
addition, most of the Abhidhamma pitaka is readily available in 
English translation too (but not Yamaka nor most of Patthana). Others 
on the forum will certainly be able to help you here. 

Tai chi can certainly be a good vehicle for developing sati as well as 
samadhi. (Although, it was torture on my shaky knees when I practiced 
for a couple years in the 1980's). Also, studying buddhadhamma helps 
to ensure that the sati and samadhi are samma-sati and samma-samadhi. 
At some point, an intensive study of vipassana meditation at an 
extended retreat (2 weeks or so) will prove indispensible, especially 
in understanding the nature of the "inner chatter." 

Keeping a diary of experiences in meditation and study can 
potentially be helpful because it can help you see your progress (or 
utter lack thereof!). However, such a diary is quite likely to become 
a hindrance later on because it can so easily get you thinking about 
gauging progress, rolling in thoughts about your progress, generating 
inner chatter about progress, obsessing about your progress, thinking 
about you, You, YOU! For this reason I would strongly recommend not 
keeping a journal after making a committment to an intensive retreat. 


> I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
> an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can also
> compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
> One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the 
> the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
> whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote one 
static
> reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
> or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to take daily 
accounts
> of my experiences in meditation and study, as a means of 
introspection
> and retrospection. I have tentatively started documenting thoughts
> concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these realities to
> samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be recommended? If
> so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" study? 
> 
> That's all for now, metta to you all, Jody.

 
2565 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 3:16am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at some 
point 
> in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the right 
> direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that the 
> practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice has 
> advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear" 
> (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of fear is 
a 
> signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the 
> meditator has indeed made good progress. Another example is Buddha's 
> account of the day of his enlighenment. In the forest, he was 
> assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded wisely each time fear 
> arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was was so near to 
> enlightenment.
> 
> If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than aversion, then it is 
a 
> vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear rather than its mere 
> arising that is a more proper guide to whether the practice has gone 
> awry.

Dear dhd5,

From my own readings, the Bhaya-nana (the sixth vipassana-nana), the 
Adinava-nana (the seventh vipassana-nana) and the Nibbida-nana (the 
eighth vipassana-nana) are not nana about normal dosa as experienced 
in daily life but the knowledge of the harm of taking nama and rupa 
that arise and fall away constantly for something permanent or the 
self, on deeper and still deeper levels.  According to the book 
'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapter on Vipassana, in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, the different 
stages of nana leading to the attainment of the sotapanna level are 
described as follows:

Before the magga-vithi-citta could arise, the 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to be mindful, study and 
know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of each 
rebirth until the panna that takes notes and knows the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would increase. When 
the panna is full, steadfast to a certain level, the 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta that is a vipassana-nana would arise 
to clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
respective the level of vipassana-nana
through the mano-dvara, namely: 

              Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana

 The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to clearly realize, 
experience fully the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
that are completely separate, arammana by arammana.  The world 
appears as a reality void of the self.  At that moment there is no 
atta-sanna that used to remember realities assembled as the world.  
Then the sanna of the characteristics that are anatta of the specific 
reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must be mindful of 
the anatta-sanna that has been experienced when examining the  
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter.  Because 
without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna already 
experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, the atta-sanna 
accumulated for such a long time throughout samsara-vatta cannot be
eradicated. 

               Paccayapariggaha-nana: the second vipassana-nana

 After the vipassana-nana has fallen away, the world would appear 
assembled as before.  Those who develop sati-patthana would know 
exactly the differences between the instant when the vipassana-nana 
arises and when not.  After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen 
away, ignorance and uncertainty about other nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma would arise again because they have not been absolutely 
eradicated.  The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is a nata-parinna, the 
nana that knows only the characteristics of the reality that appears 
uniquely at the moment of vipassana-nana.  At the instant of 
vipassana-nana there is no ignorance and uncertainty about the 
characteristics of realities appearing. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana 
is the first step of vipassana-nana leading to the development of the 
next levels of increasingly clear realization of the characteristics 
of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. 

When sati-patthana has continued further to be mindful, examine and 
take notes of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
appearing, it would realize that each instant that arammana appears, 
the consciousness would arise according to paccaya, which are the
arammana.  If the distinct arammana does not appear, the nama-dhamma 
that knows that arammana cannot arise.  The appearance of each 
arammana would allow panna to see the characteristics of being 
paccaya of the appearing dhamma.  The characteristics of anatta of 
all dhamma could then be known and gradually the focus on, and the 
self-involved attention to the arammana would be attenuated.  The 
instant the eightfold magga, which is a sankhara-khandha, has 
developed to the fullest, it would cause the second vipassana-nana, 
the paccayapariggaha-nana, to arise and realize the arising of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma according to paccaya at the instant that 
the specific realities arise, for example, the realization of the 
arising of the hearing consciousness or of sound, that of the arising 
of sukha-vedana or dukkha- vedana or thinking consciousness, which 
would appear in their separateness arammana by arammana in 
characteristics void of the self etc.  

The vipassana-nana fully realizes the characteristics of realities 
that arise and appear normally but the realization is through the 
mano-dvara.  It severs the characteristics of each arammana in
manner completely voiding all other things as well as the self.  
After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, the world would 
appear assembled as before. 

                  Sammasana-nana: the third vipassana-nana

 The sammasana-nana is the panna that fully realizes the rapid 
arising and falling away in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  
When it is not vipassana-nana, even though there is knowledge through 
reasoning that nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma arise and fall away very 
rapidly, the arising and falling away would not be apparent.  Even in 
the first and second vipassana-nana, the realization of the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is only that of each 
nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma one at a time. 

The first, second and third vipassana-nana are taruna-vipassana, the 
vipassana of the beginning level, therefore, they are still weak, not 
balava-vipassana or vipassana-nana that is strong, as are the higher 
levels of vipassana-nana.  Taruna-vipassana still reflects upon  
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized if in an aspect 
void of the world that used to appear assembled. 

Since there is still thinking about nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that 
is being realized, they are called cinta-nana, which makes people 
mistake the 3 vipassana-nana for the instants of mindfulness, noting 
and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and
more clearly understanding them.  But as long as vipassana-nana has 
not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the 
vipassana-nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara would arise as 
being anatta, and which and how many nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
would appear as arammana. 

  Some might understand that the moment of mindfulness, examination 
of and noting the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and 
thinking,  is already the clear knowledge of  
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana.  This is because they do not know yet that
vipassana-nana must arise and appear as being anatta like all other 
nama-dhamma, and that it is the realization of the sequential 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara 
with the other dvara apparently excluded by the mano-dvara. 
Contrarily, when the vipassana-nana does not arise, even though the 
mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of all 
panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear
because it would be hidden by the arammana of the 
panca-dvara-vithi-citta. 

Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise from 
such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already 
vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana.  But until the 
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise.  
And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible 
to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a 
vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen 
would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that 
vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga 
(ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that gradually composes unto
completion as the specific vipassana-nana.  Thus the specific 
vipassana-nana would arise according to causes and conditions.  
Therefore, they develop the causes, namely sati-patthana, are 
mindful, study, examine, take note and know the characteristics of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma normally, continually, increasingly and 
more conscientiously. 

  Some think that when sammasana-nana arises they would see 
nama-dhamma arising and falling away as little spheres, one after 
another.  Nama-dhamma is not rupa-dhamma.  Since they have no 
knowledge of the characteristics of nama-dhamma, not having developed
sati-patthana to be mindful of the characteristics of specific kinds 
of nama-dhamma, which is the element of consciousness, they think 
that nama-dhamma that arises and fall away has the characteristics of 
a certain rupa.  Those who are impatient to have vipassana-nana arise
immediately would try to do other things rather than be mindful, 
examine and take note of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma that arise and appear according to the causes and 
conditions as they truly are.  But it is impossible to rush panna at 
all.  The only hetu to develop panna to gradually grow is 
sati-patthana normally, in ordinary everyday life.  If one does 
anything else, it is certain that the wrong result will issue from 
the wrong causes.  Wrong practice comes from desiring quick results 
because there is no understanding of the correct way to practice. 
Lobha-mula-citta with wrong view would be miccha-magga that leads to 
miccha-vimutti or the wrong freedom because it would not be the right 
freedom from kilesa but which is mistaken as such. 

                  Udayabbaya-nana: the fourth vipassana-nana

 Even though the third vipassana-nana realizes the rapid and 
continuous rising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, 
panna would still not be conscientious or refined enough to abandon 
or see the harm of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma because the great rapidity conceals the harm of the 
arising and falling away in sequence.  Therefore panna must be 
developed further to reach the next level of plenitude, when it can
penetrate the arising and falling away of each kind of nama-dhamma 
and rupa-dhamma even more clearly.  None can endeavor otherwise but 
to continue to examine unwaveringly the characteristics of no matter 
which kinds of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma: any level of 
kusala-dhamma, akusala-dhamma, through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense or mind.  The vipassana-nana of the fourth level, the 
udayabbaya-nana, clearly realizes the arising and falling away of 
each kind of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The Udayabbaya-nana would 
arise
only when the tirana-parinna, which is panna that can examine the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thoroughly through all 
six doorways, reaches fullness.  As long as sati-patthana has not yet 
been mindful and known the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma clearly through all six dvara the udayabbaya-nana would 
not have any paccaya to arise. 

 Those who develop the ariya-magga, namely the right samma-magga, 
would know that there is no way at all to experience the reality of 
nibbana, which is the dhamma that eradicates kilesa, if one had not 
developed panna to know the reality appearing ordinarily as they 
really are.  To clearly experience the reality of nibbana without the 
panna having examined the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma, the six dvara thoroughly and conscientiously is 
impossible. 
 Because without knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma really thoroughly there can be no knowledge of the 
differences in the characteristics of each nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma.  Without such a knowledge though all six dvara there can 
be no clear realization of the arising and falling away of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  And without the realization of the 
arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, there can be 
no eradication of ignorance, uncertainty and wrong view about 
realities. 

                     Bhanga-nana: the fifth vipassana-nana

 Even though the udayabbaya-nana had realized the rising and falling 
away of distinct characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma very 
clearly, the pleasure and satisfaction in, and clinging to the 
realities, accumulated throughout the eternity of samsara-vatta, it's 
still tenacious.  This demonstrates the deep-rootedness of avijja and 
tanha in being the self.  So panna must be further developed by the 
sati-patthana being mindful of the characteristics realized: the 
arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, which had 
appeared to the udayabbaya-nana, then there must be conscientiousness 
in the examination of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma appearing so that panna could see the meaninglessness of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that fall away in continuation.  When
sati-patthana had developed and panna had increased until there is 
plenitude of paccaya, the bhanga-nana would arise to clearly realize 
the absence of substance of the arising and continuous falling away 
of realities appearing as the pahana-parinna, which leads to the 
development of parinna of the next levels, which will start to  
attenuate pleasure in realities as the selves, entities and persons. 

                     Bhaya-nana: the sixth vipassana-nana

 When the bhanga-nana had fallen away, the developer of the 
sati-patthana would know that kilesa had the power to arise and 
evolve with accumulation.  Even though there is intention to be 
mindful of the continuous falling away of the nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma, the belief in the self is still tenaciously rooted and 
can only be attenuated precisely by seeing the harm of the falling 
away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  Therefore sati-patthana and 
panna would continue to be mindful of the characteristics of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma by examining the harm of the falling away 
in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When panna is plenary 
with paccaya the bhaya-nana would arise to see the harm of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma in the instant it is clearly realizing 
the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. 

                   Adinava-nana: the seventh vipassana-nana

 Even though the bhaya-nana had seen the harm of the arising and 
falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, when the bhaya-nana had 
fallen away, the pleasure in taking nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma for 
the self would not be eliminated.  The developers of sati-patthana 
would know that their knowledge of the harm of nama-dhamma and
rupa-dhamma must be increased in various aspects until it attenuates 
even further the attachment to nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma as the 
self.  When sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that 
arise and fall away, panna would see the harm of the arising and
falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma more thoroughly until the 
moment the paccaya is plenary and ready to induce the arising of 
adinava-nana, then the adinava-nana would arise to clearly realize 
the harm of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise and fall away at 
that instant. 

                    Nibbida-nana: the eighth vipassana-nana

 When there has been full realization of the harm of sankhara-dhamma 
like a house that is completely in flames, the pleasure in life would 
be attenuated by clearly knowing the disillusionment in the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear, thereby
being the nibbida-nana.  

                Muncitukamyata-nana: the ninth vipassana-nana

 When panna has realized more clearly the disillusionment in 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise, the panna, that desires to 
transcend nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear and fall away at 
that instant, would arise.  The panna that wants to transcend 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is the muncitukamyata-nana. 

                   Patisankha-nana: the tenth vipassana-nana

 When the panna that wishes to transcend nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
has arisen, the panna would then continue to examine the tilakkhana 
(the three characteristics) of all sankhara-dhamma according to the 
aspect of anicca-lakkhana, dukkha-lakkhana and anatta-lakkhana still 
further.  Then realize the anicca-lakkhana of all sankhara-dhamma 
that arise and fall away by being ultimately inconstant realities: 
momentary, unstable, changing, impermanent, meaningless.  It would 
fully realize the dukkha-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma that arise and 
fall away by being constantly oppressive, inevitable, irremediable, 
dangerous, or are realities that are not pleasant, unattractive.  It 
would clearly realize the anatta-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma that 
arise and fall away in sequence as being lost, ending, no one's
possession, under no one's control. The panna that realizes fully the 
three characteristics of all sankhara-dhamma is the patisankha-nana. 

              Sankharupekkha-nana: the eleventh vipassana-nana

 When the panna that clearly realizes the tilakkhana of all 
sankhara-dhamma has increased, it would attenuate the once apparent 
permanence, pleasure, and the self, so that indifferent towards 
sankhara-dhamma arises because there is clear knowledge that as long 
as time has not come to fully realize and experience the 
characteristics of nibbana, by having nibbana as arammana, then there 
would continue to be examination of one of the tilakkhana as 
arammana.  The panna that clearly realizes the indifference towards 
sankhara-dhamma that arise and fall away and appear is the 
sankharupekkha-nana. Sankharupekkha-nana is the vipassana that has
attained the summit as vutthanagamini-panna, meaning the panna which 
is the cause to transcend the status of the ordinary person when the 
magga-vithi arises. 

                   Anuloma-nana: the twelfth vipassana-nana

 The anuloma-nana is a vipassana-nana in the magga-vithi.  It is 
favorable to the full realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. The 
anuloma-nana comprises the three mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta, 
namely parikamma, upacara and anuloma.  The three instants of 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta have one of the tilakkhana as 
arammana.  That is to say, they have either the anicca-lakkhana of 
sankhara-dhamma as arammana; the dukkha-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma 
as arammana; or the anatta-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma as arammana, 
which is favorable to the relinquish of arammana that are 
sankhara-dhamma. 

 (Saccasankhepa, 357)For the tikkha-puggala, those whose panna is 
strong and able to attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma rapidly, there are 
two instants of anuloma-nana, omitting the instant of parikamma and 
increasing the phala-citta to three instants. 

                 Gotrabhu-nana: the thirteenth vipassana-nana

 After the three instants of anuloma-nana (for the manda-puggala, 
those who are slower to attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma than the 
tikkha-puggala) or two instants for the tikkha-puggala had fallen 
away, the gotrabhu-nana, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would 
arise in sequence by turning towards nibbana as arammana and becoming 
asevana-paccaya for the sotapatti-magga-citta to arise in sequence 
with nibbana as arammana; by being the lokuttara-kusala-citta that 
eradicates kilesa completely. 

 Normally the seven instants of the same process of javana-vithi 
would have the same arammana.  But in the magga-vithi the seven 
instants of javana have different arammana as follows.  The instants 
of parikamma, upacara and anuloma have one of the three tilakkhana as 
arammana but the gotrabhu, magga-citta, and two phala-cittas have 
nibbana as arammana.  Since the gotrabhu-citta is the first 
mahakusala-citta with nibbana as arammana, it is, therefore, like the 
avajjana of the sotapatti-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana, which 
follows the gotrabhu-citta.  Then the sotapatti-magga-citta would 
perform the function of eradicating kilesa. 

 A passage in the Atthasalini Cittupadakandha Vannalokuttarakusala 
and Visuddhimagga nanadassanavisuddhiniddesa compares the 
anuloma-nana and gotrabhu-nana to a man who looks up at the moon in 
the night, when the clouds hide the moon from view.  Suddenly a gust 
of wind blows away the dark clouds, another gust blows away the 
scattered clouds, and still another the mist that covers the moon.  
Thus he can see the cloudless moon. Nibbana is like the moon, the 
three anuloma-nana the three gusts of wind, the gotrabhu-nana like 
the man who sees the moon without the veiling clouds. 

 The three instants of anuloma-nana are like the three gusts of wind 
which disperse the covering clouds from the moon, but which cannot 
itself see the moon.  The anuloma-nana can disperse the darkness that 
covers sacca but cannot see nibbana and the man can see the moon
but cannot get rid of the clouds.  In the same manner that the 
gotrabhu-nana can see nibbana but cannot disperse the darkness or 
kilesa.  

                  Magga-nana: the fourteenth vipassana-nana

After the gotrabhu-citta has fallen away, the sotapatti-magga-citta 
that arises in sequence would transcend the status of ordinary person 
to that of an ariya-puggala.  The sotapatti-magga-citta would arise 
to eradicate kilesa completely according to the level of the 
lokuttara-panna 

                    Phala-nana: the fifteenth vipassana-nana

After the sotapatti-magga-citta, which is the lokuttara-kusala-citta, 
has fallen away, it  becomes paccaya for the sotapatti-phala-citta, 
which is a lokuttara- vipaka-citta, to arise in sequence without any 
other citta interposing. The lokuttara-kusala-citta is akaliko (with 
immediate result), being kamma-paccaya that makes 
lokuttara-vipaka-citta arise and fall away subsequently without any 
other citta in between.  The lokuttara-vipaka-citta is different from 
other vipaka-cittas in performing javana-kicca following two or three
instants of lokuttara-kusala-citta in the magga-vithi and the 
lokuttara-vipaka is the phala-citta that arises after the 
magga-vithi, exclusively performing the javana-kicca, never 
functioning as any other vipaka-citta. 

               Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth vipassana-nana

 After the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta 
would arise in continuation after which the mano-dvara-vithi-citta 
would arise and examine the reality that has just been fully realized 
process by process, one examining the instant of magga-citta, another 
the phala-citta, another the kilesa that has been eradicated, still 
another the remaining kilesa and finally nibbana.  

 For those who attain arahanta-magga and arahata-phala, there is no 
examination of the rest of the kilesa because the arahanta-magga-citta 
eradicates all the kilesa completely, without any remnants. 

 In some places the 16 vipassana-nana are manifested as 9 
vipassana-nana,  which are balava-nana, as follows: 

 1) Udayabbaya-nana 
 2) Bhanga-nana 
 3) Bhaya-nana 
 4) Adinava-nana 
 5) Nibbida-nana 
 6) Muncitukamyata-nana 
 7) Patisankha-nana 
 8) Sankharupekkha-nana 
 9) Anuloma-nana 

 In some places 10 vipassana-nana are manifested, beginning with the 
sammasana-nana up to anuloma-nana.  The reason that the 
vipassana-nana is manifested from the first to the anuloma-nana is 
that it gradually becomes sharper and stronger until they are 
favorable to having nibbana as arammana. 

(End quote)


Not to get sidetracked from our main issue, the bhaya-nana is not 
about dosa as such but knowledge about the dangers of illusions when 
reality has been experienced as such up to the point of 
vipassana-nana arising to higher levels.  Fear must be studied as 
such, another form of dosa, in order for knowledge of realities as 
they truly are to increase, not as a sign of wisdom arising in 
itself.  I would be interested to know if there are passages in the 
Tipitaka to counter this, and would thank you in advance if you could 
give us the references,

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
2566  
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 7:54am
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  Dear Amara,

> Happy New Year, Alex! 

   Happy New Year to you, too.  :-)

> I hope you have had time to read some of 
> new booklets in our website as well?

   Yes, I did.  I like the Birth, Age, Illness, and Death very much.  
I read the Master Avengers, too.  

   Thank you for your hard work.

> Shinlin is here on the list, her e-mail is <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026036129208>. 

   I'll write to her right now.  Thank you.

> I almost wish your studies give you 
> lots of questions just so we could discuss them!

   Again, thank you.  :-)  I hope that I won't become a pest.  Be 
sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest Control Unit.  :-)

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

 
2567 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear dhd,
Greetings for the new year. You wrote:
> My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at
> some point 
> in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the
> right 
> direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that
> the 
> practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice
> has 
> advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear" 
> (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of
> fear is a 
> signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that
> the 
> meditator has indeed made good progress. 

This is interesting. I think that  with the new meditation
schools that began  in the 20th century many ideas about what is
indicative of vipassana-nana have come about.
Is fear really an indicator of progress; can it mean someone has
reached balava-vipassana? 

Moments of vipassana are all maha-kusala and they can only arise
with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling.
According to the visuddhimagga XXI32about the stage of 'terror',
an advanced stage of vipassana: "but does the knowledge of
appearance as terror fear or does it not fear? It does not fear
for it is simply the mere judgement that past formations have
ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease...
it is called 'appearance as terror' only because formations in
all kinds of becoming ..are fearful in being bound for
destruction.."endquote
Fear may still arise even to a sotapanna when there is not
maha-kusala citta but insight into anatta tends away from fear
because there is less clinging to the idea of anything that is
substantial to protect. There may still be fear at any time
during the long, long process of developing satipatthana but I
think the idea that this indicates progress is just as likely to
mislead as the idea that a calm, concentrated  feeling is a sign
of insight. 
Robert





 
2568 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243

 
  Dear Robert,
A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for providing such
wonderful inspiration and understanding from all your letters to our group.
I don't often participate with replies to the group, but I eagerly look
forward to opening my computer each morning and reading all the letters that
have come through. Your writings especcially have often provided some of the
paccaya for sati to arise.

With metta,
Betty

 __________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
2569 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:13am
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  -  I hope that I won't become a pest.  Be 
> sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest Control Unit.  


Dear Alex, 

If you did I would probably make you my pet pest!  I would never call 
the pest control over anyone on the list, although being a pestilent 
pen pusher myself I might have caused some people who cannot take my 
grim jokes to flee... I just hope that what I consider my frankness 
doesn't turn out to be two of Gayan's vancaka, as you might recall:




            21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti 

kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person 
who is under the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the 
person] as a help for guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning 
the wrong action ] akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh 
words. The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may 
cheat as niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus 
on the person rather  than on the deed. 

the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma   is either a kusala 
or an akusala, and being honest in understanding it.

            22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti 

kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it 
is not done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . 
Papagarahata is used (even) by the Buddha.

But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. 
And this is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the 
former.They give in for lot of dosa regarding others and their evil 
deeds., thereby abusing their own mind. 
Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings 
and the subsequent condemnation. This is the akusala of liking to 
condemn others - paravajjanupassita. and not the condemning of evils 
without dosa towards the deed or the doer.(papagarahata)

and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala 
dhammas. 

(I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word 
for the pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?)

(end quote)


If you find my pestilent side repelling, please scream, in the 
meantime lets' try to walk the path together,

Amara

 
 
2570 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:18am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 243

 
  > A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for providing 
such
> wonderful inspiration and understanding from all your letters to our 
group.
> I don't often participate with replies to the group, but I eagerly 
look
> forward to opening my computer each morning and reading all the 
letters that
> have come through. Your writings especcially have often provided 
some of the
> paccaya for sati to arise.


Dear Robert,

Betty's absolutely right, and a very happy birthday indeed!!!

Anumodana in all the great kusala in a great dhamma friend,

Amara

 
2571 From: Sukinder Narula   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: List of Books

 
  Dear friends,
Jonothan has requested me to print out a list of books available at 
the foundation. Here it is:-
1. Realities and Concepts.
2. Letters from Nina.
3. Understanding Reality.(En/Th)
4. Abhidhamma in Daily Life.
5. Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka.
6. Mental Development in Daily Life.(En/Th). A set of four books as 
follows:-
   a.) The Greatest Blessings.
   b.) Death
   c.) The Eighhtfold Path.
   d.) Tranquil Meditation and Vipassana.
The (En/Th) means that these books are half in English and half in 
Thai (one facing the other side by side).
I understand that Jonothan and Sarah have kept aside funds at the 
foundation for the purpose of sending tapes as well as books to any 
interested persons. Also Shin has offered help with this matter. I 
felt however, that since any working system might not materialize
soon enough, my thoughts are that, in the mean time I could get the 
books from the foundation and post them myself. You could mail me 
privately and let me know which books you need.
Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't mind me doing this 
without prior consultation, I just thought,"why wait?!"

Metta,

Sukin

 
2572 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 5:11pm
Subject: Re: List of Books

 
  > Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't mind me doing this 
> without prior consultation, I just thought,"why wait?!"


Dear Sukin, and everyone,

Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, and everyone's as well!!!

So I guess we have two choices for the books and tapes, either you 
could contact Sukin or the address Jonothan gave in his earlier 
message.  (What luxury, I wish I had this when I was living abroad!)

For contributions to the printing of the 'Summary', please contact 
Shin for now.  

Again, anumodana for all the kusala cetana,

Amara

 
2573 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 6:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: List of Books

 
  Dear Sukin,

I'd just like to ditto all Amara's comments below. We
really enjoyed meeting you in Bangkok and appreciate
your keen interest in dhamma and generosity to share
it.

Sarah


--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> > Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't
> mind me doing this 
> > without prior consultation, I just thought,"why
> wait?!"
> 
> 
> Dear Sukin, and everyone,
> 
> Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, and
> everyone's as well!!!
> 
> So I guess we have two choices for the books and
> tapes, either you 
> could contact Sukin or the address Jonothan gave in
> his earlier 
> message.  (What luxury, I wish I had this when I was
> living abroad!)
> 
> For contributions to the printing of the 'Summary',
> please contact 
> Shin for now.  
> 
> Again, anumodana for all the kusala cetana,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
2574 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 6:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243

 
  Dear Betty,
Thank you. Sarah mentioned to me off-list that your son (the
bhikkhu) is now visiting the foundation . Very nice that both of
you can benefit and also appreciate each others kusala.
Robert
--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for
> providing such
> wonderful 


 
2575 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243

 
  Dear Robert,

Happy late B'day too and also ditto Betty's and the
others' comments.  Many thanks for your good
friendship, support, encouragement and inspiration to
us all.

So now we know, in furture years we can celebrate the
anniversary of the list, the New Year AND yr b'day
together!

Hope you're having a good day and both you and the
list have a good year ahead!

Best wishes,
Sarah




 
2576 From: Shaiu-in Lin   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 10:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 245

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends,
    My email is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026077053012134048234051209113079 or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020237194237036158085064231090136058066192197079172142172194143142083 If any one
would like to contribute anything for the printing of the book, pls feel
free to contact me.
with regards,
Shin Lin

 
2577  
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 10:45pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 243

 
  Dear Moderators,  

   I mean Dear Sarah, Jonothan, Robert, Amara, ... :-)

   Happy Anniversary of the List.  Happy New Year.  And Happy 
Birthday, Robert.  

   Anumodana for your great work.  With such kusala citta, you 
already bypass many life times on the way to the Goal.

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

 
2578 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:07pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 243

 
  > Dear Moderators,  
> 
>    I mean Dear Sarah, Jonothan, Robert, Amara, ... :-)


Dear Alex,

Thanks for including me in the great list, I am just a member like 
yourself and you will have seen that I am not so 'moderate' either!

I look forward to learning more from the list and thank you all in 
advance,
=^_^=
  _/\_
Amara

 
2579 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: new year's greeting where it belongs

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one
> gets distracted by 
> the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call
> anything that 
> distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating
> knowledge of 
> things as they really are.  

...

> it 
> falls away and would not arise when one has lobha
> for it, in other 
> words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance
> to its arising.  

Thanks for these excellent points and for the timely
quote from Khun Sujin.

mike


 
2580 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !

 
  Dear Khun Amara and Alex,

--- amara chay  wrote:

---  wrote:

> -  I hope that I won't become a pest.  Be 
> > sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest
> Control Unit.  
> 
> Dear Alex, 
> 
> If you did I would probably make you my pet pest!  I
> would never call 
> the pest control over anyone on the list, 

[lucky for me--i would've been exterminated long ago]

Nice use of the vangcakas!!!  Great tools, aren't
they?

Another Pest Heard From,

mike



 
2581 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digest Number 243

 
  Hear, hear!

mike

--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> > A very happy birthday to you and especially
> anumodhana for providing 
> such
> > wonderful inspiration and understanding from all
> your letters to our 
> group.
> > I don't often participate with replies to the
> group, but I eagerly 
> look
> > forward to opening my computer each morning and
> reading all the 
> letters that
> > have come through. Your writings especcially have
> often provided 
> some of the
> > paccaya for sati to arise.
> 
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Betty's absolutely right, and a very happy birthday
> indeed!!!
> 
> Anumodana in all the great kusala in a great dhamma
> friend,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
2582 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Moments of vipassana are all maha-kusala and they
> can only arise
> with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling.
> According to the visuddhimagga XXI32about the stage
> of 'terror',
> an advanced stage of vipassana: "but does the
> knowledge of
> appearance as terror fear or does it not fear? It
> does not fear
> for it is simply the mere judgement that past
> formations have
> ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones
> will cease...
> it is called 'appearance as terror' only because
> formations in
> all kinds of becoming ..are fearful in being bound
> for
> destruction..." endquote

Interesting!

> Fear may still arise even to a sotapanna when there
> is not
> maha-kusala citta but insight into anatta tends away
> from fear
> because there is less clinging to the idea of
> anything that is
> substantial to protect. There may still be fear at
> any time
> during the long, long process of developing
> satipatthana but I
> think the idea that this indicates progress is just
> as likely to
> mislead as the idea that a calm, concentrated 
> feeling is a sign
> of insight.

Excellent point--though the latter, I think, is the
more dangerous of the two.

Thanks yet again for correcting and re-correcting my
conclusions on these matters...

mike
 


 
2583 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Hello, Dan!

---  wrote:

> My point was that fear is bound to arise for a
> meditator at some point 
> in the practice even if that practice is properly
> going in the right 
> direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable
> indicator that the 
> practice has gone astray. 

You're right, of course.

> For example, only after
> the practice has 
> advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge
> of fear" 
> (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the
> arising of fear is a 
> signpost along straight-and-narrow journey,
> indicating that the 
> meditator has indeed made good progress. Another
> example is Buddha's 
> account of the day of his enlighenment. In the
> forest, he was 
> assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded
> wisely each time fear 
> arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was
> was so near to 
> enlightenment.

Excellent point!

> If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than
> aversion, then it is a 
> vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear
> rather than its mere 
> arising that is a more proper guide to whether the
> practice has gone 
> awry.

Right you are, sir.  Thanks for helping to clarify my
thinking on this point!

mike


 
2584 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List of Books

 
  Dear Sukin,

--- Sukinder Narula  wrote:

> The (En/Th) means that these books are half in
> English and half in 
> Thai (one facing the other side by side).

Is the Thai romanized, by any chance?

> I understand that Jonothan and Sarah have kept aside
> funds at the 
> foundation for the purpose of sending tapes as well
> as books to any 
> interested persons. Also Shin has offered help with
> this matter. I 
> felt however, that since any working system might
> not materialize
> soon enough, my thoughts are that, in the mean time
> I could get the 
> books from the foundation and post them myself.

Nice to hear from you again, Sukin.  Anumodana for
your efforts, and a Happy New Year to you, Sir!

mike


 
 
2585 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:41am
Subject: Hari tau hou!

 
  Hi Amara and Leonardo!

"Hari tau hou" would be a direct Maaori transliteration of Happy new year.

Traditionally, Maaori looked at time as cycles not as a measurement. In
addition,
time was like a person looking backwards into the past. The past filled
one's
consciousness through the teachings of one's sub-tribe and tribe. The
contents of one's
consciousness was then utilised to live in the present and avert mistakes
made in the past. The future was behind the person looking into the past,
unable to be seen. Though Maaori did believe in clairvoyancy, magic, and,
deities.
For example, there were accounts of Tohunga (specialised Masters) who
foretold the
coming of the Pakeha (in this case, the British), to the point of building
apparatus
which the Pakeha would bring, such as a boat and some kitchen implements, if
I remember rightly.

In this lifetime, I have Maaori, Scottish, and French descent. I was brought
up as a New Zealander, which since British colonialisation during the 1800s
has been dominated by the changing culture of the British coloniser. So,
my first language is English and I'm a bit rusty concerning Maaori. I have
only ever known a little Maaori, enough to pick up bits and pieces in a
conversation.

Currently, Maaori culture can be recognised as going through a renaissance.
With changing ideas concerning gender, disability, sexuality, age, class,
in short, anything that was previously considered as a inferior difference
to the accepted, things are changing fast. There seems to be a real
awakening
to the fact that all things are impermanent not static, and to the idea that
the
"self" is a conditioned reality.

Ended up saying a bit more then initially intended, but your question caused
these
other things to arise.

Metta, Jody.

-----Original Message-----
From: amara chay
Sent: 12/31/00 3:37 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !



Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!!

I was just thinking of you!  And wondering how you said this in your 
languages!

Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings,

Amara

 
2586 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 5:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Mike.

Just a picky point on yours which Dan has helpfully
requoted:

> To which you responded: 
> > I don't mean argue with your point here, though
> I'm
> > not sure I understand it.  I think of fear as just
> > aversion toward an idea of some future
> > unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with
> > domanassa.  The only forms of aversion I can
> remember
> > the Buddha commending were shame and fear with
> regard
> > to misconduct

You are right when you say that fear is a kind of dosa
(aversion) and therefore it's always akusala
(unwholesome). Robert and Amara have taken up this
point to discuss further with Dan.

The Buddha never recommended any kinds of dosa
(aversion). I wonder if you are referring here to hiri
and ottappa often translated as moral shame and fear
of blame? From the English translations it can sound
as if these are kinds of aversion about misconduct
which is why we have to study the meaning of the Pali.
The tralnslation as fear can be misleading. S'times
hiri is translated as conscience or conscientious
scruples and ottappa as seeing the danger in blame.
Maybe these sound more 'wholesome'. 

In fact these are both sobhana cetasikas (wholesome or
beautiful) accompanying each sobhana citta (wholesome
consciousness) so there can be no aversion involved.
Hiri refers to shame of akusala (unwholesomeness) and
ottappa refers to fear of blame or seeing the danger
of blame. The opposites (ahirika and anottappa) are
shamelessness and recklessness. The more undestanding
sees the danger and impurity of akusala, in a
wholesome sense, the more hiri and ottappa will be
developed. In the Vis., it talks about  them as the
proximate condition for sila:

...For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa) are
in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when
they are not, it neither arises nor persists...

I highly recommend the chapter on these in Cetasikas
by NVG which I think you've bought. (Btw for anyone
else, this book has to be purchased, it's not
available from Bkk).

Hope this helps and apologies if I misunderstood you
as always!

rgds
Sarah



 
2587 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 6:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs

 
  Dear Bruce,

I really enjoyed your post below. Firstly it's very
funny indeed and more importantly it showed yr
appreciation and understanding that any time is the
right time for developing sati! Great!

--- bruce  wrote: > robt
was kind enough to point out my absolute lack
> of mindfullness in
> posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy,
> and i apologize...this
> was certainly meant for dsg:
> 
There are a few of us who regularly press that zap
button at the wrong time and place....When I read
other mistakes it reassures me to know that I'm not
alone in this! (I'm not pretending there's anything
kusala  here!) At that moment of embrarrassment or
shock when we discover the mistake there can be sati
too! > =====================
> 
> 
> 
 i am undergoing
> severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely
> concentrate on these sentences
> long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours
> with no cigarettes and
> counting, and it is some genuine akusala
> vipaka...needless to say, this is
> an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to
> understand the moment: 

Yes, however wiped out one feels or however 'blurry'
the realities, sati can arise and will arise if there
are moments of understanding at these times. This is
why concentration as we understand it is not the key,
but understanding is! There will be rt concentration
automatically if there is rt understanding even when
we can't form a sentence! I once asked K.Sujin about
sati if we end up w/ Alzheimer's disease and she
replied that there can still be sati and panna in
between all the other experiences. Anytime!

it
> seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my
> current unpleasant feelings
> that makes this unpleasantness appear real and
> lasting, and much nastier
> than it actually is....i try to just notice the
> feelings as they arise and
> pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so
> swiftly that it's
> useless to try and do anything but watch the current
> flow by...
> 
Yes, I agree...all those stories and dosa that make it
so hard! Yes, too, useless to try and DO anything...

> my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal
> with tanha and upadana
> head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the
> moment....
> 
I love it! Hope you don't injure yourself seriously in
that collision!

> i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading
> all the posts, and
> getting more useful information than i thought
> possible...
> 
Bruce, pls do keep us posted on yr progress w/ yr
great style (I mean nicotine withdrawal as well as the
loftier progress). If the sentences are left
unfinished, we'll understand!


> thanks for so much good discussion...
> 
THANK YOU!

Sarah

p.s. give yourself a few other treats to help
compensate- cream cakes or whatever else appeals....I
remember Jonothan put on lots of weight when he gave
up ciggies (ages ago now) but he lost it later when
his 'system' settled down to the new nicotine-free
world.




 
2588  
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:07am
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  > If you find my pestilent side repelling, please scream, in the 
> meantime lets' try to walk the path together,

Dear Amara,

   I would never be able to complain about anyone in this list 
because I've learned a lot from everyone.  I think that you are 
great, Amara.  With your work on the Website, and your contribution 
here, you are indeed a true dhamma friend.  Anumodana to your work 
and effort.

   Thank you.

Metta,
Alex Tran

 
2589 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for the helpful comments.

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> The Buddha never recommended any kinds of dosa
> (aversion). I wonder if you are referring here to
> hiri
> and ottappa often translated as moral shame and fear
> of blame? 

Very likely, yes.  I first heard this a long time ago.
 The (very decent) monk I heard it from was of a
somewhat anti-scholastic bent, and was possibly not
very careful of the translation.  

> From the English translations it can sound
> as if these are kinds of aversion about misconduct
> which is why we have to study the meaning of the
> Pali.

This is the way I took him to mean it.  He also placed
a great deal of emphasis on sila (much more than on
samadhi or pañña) and I suspect would not have minded
people (monks especially!) feeling fear associated
with the idea of akusala kamma--though I may have
misunderstood him.

> The translation as fear can be misleading. S'times
> hiri is translated as conscience or conscientious
> scruples and ottappa as seeing the danger in blame.
> Maybe these sound more 'wholesome'. 

Well, these do make sense, don't they?  In fact,
'seeing danger in the slightest transgression', for
example, isn't exactly the same as fear.  In fact, I
find it reassuring, a sort of sense of security.
 
> In fact these are both sobhana cetasikas (wholesome
> or
> beautiful) accompanying each sobhana citta
> (wholesome
> consciousness) so there can be no aversion involved.

Well then, I guess we can be sure that, if we're
experiencing domanassa, we're not experiencing hiri or
ottappa.  Interestingly, that was the downfall of this
monk's dhamma talk; it tended to (I think) try to
inspire fear and shame, kind of like a puritanical
fire-and-brimstone sermon.  Never seemed quite right,
to me...

> Hiri refers to shame of akusala (unwholesomeness)
> and
> ottappa refers to fear of blame or seeing the danger
> of blame. The opposites (ahirika and anottappa) are
> shamelessness and recklessness. The more
> undestanding
> sees the danger and impurity of akusala, in a
> wholesome sense, the more hiri and ottappa will be
> developed. 

I guess if you see (and heed) the warning sign, you
don't have to experience the fear of driving off the
cliff!

> In the Vis., it talks about  them as the
> proximate condition for sila:
> 
> ...For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa)
> are
> in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when
> they are not, it neither arises nor persists...
> 
> I highly recommend the chapter on these in Cetasikas
> by NVG which I think you've bought. 

Yes, I do have a copy, but have to finish AIDL first! 
This may take a while (at the rate I'm going...!)

> Hope this helps 

Definitely!

> and apologies if I misunderstood you
> as always!

Not at all--thanks again.

Rgds back at you!

mike


 
2590  
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  ---  "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara and Alex,
>
> [lucky for me--i would've been exterminated long ago]
> 
> Nice use of the vangcakas!!!  Great tools, aren't
> they?
> 
> Another Pest Heard From,
> 
> mike

Dear Mike,

   If you were a pest, you would be the most fruitful, gentle and 
considerate one in the list.  It means you can never be one.  As a 
matter of fact, I feel very humble with your humility. 

   Thank you, Sir.

Anumodana to your beautiful contribution, Sir
Alex

 
2591 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 10:51am
Subject: Re: List of Books

 
  > Is the Thai romanized, by any chance?

Dear Mike, 

Sorry, it's not!  Normal Thai is never Romanized, unlike several 
other Asian languages nowadays- and the alphabets are three times as 
complicated as the Roman- over 40 consonants and 30+ vowels, placed 
in all four directions: above, below, left and right of the 
consonants, and to make it more interesting, you have the 5 'musical 
levels' + some extra linguistic signs!!!
A lot of fun!

Amara

 
2592 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:21am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Jody,

Sorry this is so late!  I'm trying to catch up...

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> > Sent: 12/10/00 1:18 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a
> Great Person
> 
> In other words, is this stating that the Dhamma will
> not appear to
> those that have not accumulated the right
> conditions? 

I don't know.  I am told that past kamma has a lot to
do with whether or not you hear the Buddhdhamma. 
Probably others in the group can explain this much
better than I can.

> And is the
> "great person" an araahant?

I don't think so--it seems too much directed to one
cultivating the path--don't you think so?  The arahat
is finished with that.

mike


 
2593 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Sarah,

Catching up again...

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
> citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
> from killing for example), there is sati at the
> level
> of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
> these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
> object. There is giving to a person, though there is
> no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no
> understanding of the value of giving at that moment
> either, so although the wholesome cittas are
> accumulated they are not developed. Is that
> confusing?

Ah--so, if the dana had been performed with sati
arising with the dana, rather than with the panyatti,
the citta (what citta, by the way) would have been
'accumulated' and developed? 
 
> At the level of samatha, there is also sati and in
> this case, even though the object is a concept,
> there
> is understanding at this level and thus the value of
> samatha is known for a moment and developed. For
> example, there may be metta now which is directed to
> a
> person (concept) and understood. There is still no
> awareness of realities and thus satipatthana cannot
> be
> developed.

So, again, if the sati arose with the moment of
samatha (-citta?) , rather than with the moment of
panyatti (-citta?), it could 'be
developed'--otherwise, not?

I think this is all not so much confusing as beyond me
at this point.  Maybe I should revisit all this after
reading a LOT more NVG...! 
 
> At the level of satipatthana (here I'm talking about
> the development of right awareness of realities in
> order that the eightfold path may be developed),
> sati
> must be aware over and over and over again of namas
> as
> namas and rupas as rupas so there is no confusion
> about  what is experiencing and what is experienced.

Understood.

> So now, seeing is nama. It is the reality which is
> experiencing visible object, no self in it.
> Awareness
> begins to be aware of it so that understanding can
> develop. At the moment awareness is aware, it is
> very
> ordinary. There are no bright lights or fears or
> sudden revelations. The reality is just as it is
> now.
> Nothing special. Then there is another reality and
> another. If we cling to sati or wish to have more or
> wonder how to develop it now, again it shows the
> clinging to self. No awareness. 

In other words, if (after sati arises) upadana arises,
sati doesn't arise...?
 
> Visible object is the reality which is seen now.
> Again
> when awareness is aware of it, it's very ordinary.
> As
> awareness and understanding develop (together) they
> 'penetrate' the reality appearing more precisely and
> begin to understand how anatta it is at this moment.
> Anatta is not something different from the seeing
> and
> visible object appearing now. The nature of these
> realities is anatta. No sudden revelations or
> special
> experiences. 

Right.

> As Robert has pointed out, we don't
> have
> to concern ourselves with nibbana and higher levels
> of
> insight when there is so little awareness and
> understanding of the realities appearing now. 

Agreed!

> Being
> aware of namas and rupas now and beginning to
> understanding the difference between them when they
> appear is the patipada (practice), whether we are
> celebrating Xmas with our families, sitting in a
> meditation centre or teaching students as I'm about
> to
> be!

Right...
  
> So in between the countless moments of akusala citta
> arising in a day, there are moments of kusala of
> different kinds with different levels of sati
> accompanying them.  



> I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
> all the excellent posts in recent days. 

Certainly, there is.  And even if it didn't, these
points do need to be heard again and again, don't
they?

> I look f/w
> to
> hearing from you or anyone else.

Thanks as always...

mike


 
2594 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:08pm
Subject: Re: Hari tau hou!

 
  Dear Jody, 

Thank you for the fascinating details of Maaori culture, about which 
I know very little although I am a great admirer of Dame Kiri Te 
Kanawa!  

I have always thought that religions and beliefs, and science came 
from people trying to find reasons for their and their surrounding's 
existance and mechanisms.  Which is why the two regimes were at first 
inseparable: the earliest universities were in religious compounds.  
In the western world they separated when science disproved things 
taught by religious beliefs, costing several earlier scholars' lives 
along the way: the earth is not unique, the center of the universe, 
nor even the solar complex; nor is it flat, etc.  Which causes much 
dilemma for scientist who want to be good Christians even today.

Luckily the Buddha's teachings has yet to be proven wrong, although 
translations often cause a lot of confusion and unconscionable 
interpretations even more misunderstanding.  Einstien, who explained 
that light was made of particles or quanta, instead of rays of waves, 
and went on to say that all things were indeed composed of particles, 
echoed what was taught 2500 years ago by the Buddha, who explained 
that all things were composed of groups of rupa, the smallest, 
indivisible group of which is the kalapa.  At CERN, where a tunnel is 
built underground on the border of four European countries 
(Switzerland, Germany, France and Italy) to split quarks, they found 
it to have eight components also (the same number as the smallest 
kalapa), after the separation of which it disappears.  By the way E. 
once said that if ever there were a religion for a scientist, it 
would be Buddhism, or something to that effect.

But the best thing about Buddhism is that one could always prove for 
oneself what no other religion on earth teaches: that realities arise 
and fall away and can be experienced through the six dvara, 
even when we think of theories or read about them.  Things are always 
changing, whether on the atomic level or just now as we read this on 
the screen, sight arises and change, as do things seen and heard and 
felt, and especially thoughts, so different from all other dvara and 
yet able to experience all things through all the other senses.  And 
the knowledge of things as they really are could accumulate gradually 
until levels of clear experience of them as such arises and a higher 
level of wisdom reached that can realize that there is indeed no self 
at all.  

Still it was wonderful to read about all the 'conventional truths' 
(as opposed to paramatthadhamma)you wrote of, especially in your 
nice style of writing, which causes a lot of lobha in me!  (Again, 
my own accumulations!)  Looking forward to more,

Amara


> Traditionally, Maaori looked at time as cycles not as a measurement. 
In
> addition,
> time was like a person looking backwards into the past. The past 
filled
> one's
> consciousness through the teachings of one's sub-tribe and tribe. 
The
> contents of one's
> consciousness was then utilised to live in the present and avert 
mistakes
> made in the past. The future was behind the person looking into the 
past,
> unable to be seen. Though Maaori did believe in clairvoyancy, magic, 
and,
> deities.
> For example, there were accounts of Tohunga (specialised Masters) 
who
> foretold the
> coming of the Pakeha (in this case, the British), to the point of 
building
> apparatus
> which the Pakeha would bring, such as a boat and some kitchen 
implements, if
> I remember rightly.
> 
> In this lifetime, I have Maaori, Scottish, and French descent. I was 
brought
> up as a New Zealander, which since British colonialisation during 
the 1800s
> has been dominated by the changing culture of the British coloniser. 
So,
> my first language is English and I'm a bit rusty concerning Maaori. 
I have
> only ever known a little Maaori, enough to pick up bits and pieces 
in a
> conversation.
> 
> Currently, Maaori culture can be recognised as going through a 
renaissance.
> With changing ideas concerning gender, disability, sexuality, age, 
class,
> in short, anything that was previously considered as a inferior 
difference
> to the accepted, things are changing fast. There seems to be a real
> awakening
> to the fact that all things are impermanent not static, and to the 
idea that
> the
> "self" is a conditioned reality.
> 
> Ended up saying a bit more then initially intended, but your 
question caused
> these
> other things to arise.
> 
> Metta, Jody.

 
2595 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Sarah,

Still trying to catch up.  Everyone, please excuse me
and disregard this if you find the topic out of place.

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> The point of this was to show that even after many
> years as a monk, the accumulations don't change.
> Khun
> Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to
> live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal,
> then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One
> needs
> to know one's accumulations very well indeed.

Shouldn't that be the goal of us all?  How could we
have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to
the life of an arahat?

> > No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?)
> will
> > affect past accumulations.  However, new
> > accumulations
> > after one has begun observing the 226 precepts
> will
> > certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> > protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> > vipaka--right?
> 
> Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana
> will protect one from (performing) akusala
> kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds).  

Granted, observation without understanding will not
result in understanding and its attendant eradication
of ignorance.  But if the precepts are strictly
observed, even without understanding, how can akusala
acts be said to have been committed?  

> Like now, one can
> try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a
> sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever
> the
> situation.

Certainly not.

> K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules?

It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
to adopt them.  This is my central point.  It may be
true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that
large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked.  (It
would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced
to only the instructions he gave to householders, it
would fit conveniently into a handbook!)  I'm not even
saying this isn't true.  You've all come a long way
toward convincing me that it IS true.  If so, out with
the vinaya and most of the suttanta.  (The dhamma as
the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from
the vinaya--the dhammavinaya).  So we have nothing
left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
suttas, after only half the sasana.  Maybe that really
is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
eventually.  At this point, the enormity of that
conclusion is more than I'm prepared for. 

> Aren't
> 5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed
> out
> that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226
> precepts too 

Certainly.  I kept only eight for nine months, and it
was sometimes very stressful.

> and A. Cha's article which someone
> kindly
> highlighted was a good reminder of this. 

Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful
than the householders life (he often joked about
this).

> The friend
> we
> mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled
> to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because
> he
> found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at
> his original ordination.  He then had to go to Sri
> Lanka to take robes again correctly. 

Excellent!

> > > I might make similar comments with regard to
> your
> > > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > > life....isn't this thinking? 
> > 
> > To be sure!  And I'm not actually complaining
> about
> > these things.  In fact, I have a great job, good
> > friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> > thing.  I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> > Alan was, in my own way.  More to the point, 
 
> So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if
> we stay as a monk for this life, what about next
> life?

Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different
answers to that question for monks and householders 
(except in the case of individual instructions to
extraordinary householders).

> > > What about awareness
> > > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > > conversations,
> > > doing boring work etc...realities which are just
> > as
> > > real at these times!
> > 
> > Of course!  And by the way, a monk's life is just
> as
> > full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's. 
> > Contrary
> > to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe
> > that
> > simply living the 'holy life' does much of
> anything
> > to
> > eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way
> of
> > expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.
> 
> Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's
> life...many duties and obligations and listening to
> dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no
> possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to
> follow
> dhamma!

True!  As you know, that's the hardest (material)
thing for me to relinquish, at present...

..... When we had our discussion on this
> theme
> we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina
> pointed
> out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have
> attended that day.  

True.  Also not appropriate, unless the Buddha's
instructions to the monks of his day are, in fact,
obsolete--as I admit, however reluctantly, they may
be.

> > This
> > brings me back to my other (rather unclearly
> stated)
> > motives:  That it's a great job that needs to be
> > done,
 
> Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the
> most
> important job to be done. 

You're right, of course, but I didn't mean 'job' in
the sense of 'task'--I meant it in the sense of
'livelihood'.

> Being aware and
> understanding reality now is more important than any
> idea of a particular lifestyle. 

To be sure!  However, I think it's clear that the
Buddha taught that, at least in his day, the
'lifestyle' of a bhikku was the best possible resort
for cultivating awareness and understanding reality.

> K.Sujin asked why we
> are so attached to the yellow cloth? 

I'm not, at all.  Robes are just a practical solution
to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable
minimum.  I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them
to be anything else (aside for some peripheral
symbolic uses).

> This is not to
> say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha
> as
> preserver of the Teachings through the ages. 

True, but it MAY be obsolete, just the same.  After
all, we have books and computers now...
 
> > and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> > kamma-pathas.  

> superficially if at all....

Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to
not committing kamma-pathas.    

> Jonothan gave the example
> of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does
> nothing
> to eradiacate the real problem.

True, but an equivocation--the real problem you're
referring to is ignorance; the real problem above was
akusala kamma.
 
> By the way, as Robert pointed out in
> > a
> > recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything
> we
> > want to do.  I realize that this intention is
> > conditioned almost entirely by the three
> unwholesome
> > roots.  That's the way it has to be and, I assume,
> > has
> > been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since
> > the
> > days of the arahats.  However, I don't think that
> > this
> > is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do
> you? 
> > If I waited until my motives were completely pure,
> I
> > would never have performed any act of dana, sila
> or
> > bhavana.
> 
> Well, different moments and different cittas as
> usual.
> i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve
> the
> Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing
> more
> understanding. These you are doing now with your
> excellent contributions here.

I truly think you're too kind.  I don't see myself
being able to guide others for years, if ever.  As for
the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation
comes just from having read the suttas--the
instructions are quite unambiguous.  Maybe they're
also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good
intentions regarding the rest are probably out the
window too...

> > please feel free to post any of this you'd like to
> > get
> > something going.
> >  
> Well, actually you have posted it to the list 

I did, didn't I--absent-minded as usual.

> and
> pls
> keep up yr responses to the list. 

Are you sure?  The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I
can't help thinking it might be better to continue
off-list, for those who are interested.

Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing me
to continually re-examine my thinking on this...

mike


 
2596 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:50pm
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  > With your work on the Website, and your contribution 
> here, you are indeed a true dhamma friend.  Anumodana to your work 
> and effort.


Dear Alex,

Thank you, I'm glad to be your friend,

Amara

 
2597 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:59pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > Are you sure?  The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I
> can't help thinking it might be better to continue
> off-list, for those who are interested.


Dear Mike,

I agree with Sarah, of course!  Keep up the reasonings, anyone bored 
could just pass on to the next message, so keep them coming,

Amara

 
2598 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !

 
  Dear Alex,

You ARE too kind.

---  wrote:

> If you were a pest, you would be the most
> fruitful, 

A fruit fly, maybe?  This reminds me of a funny story:
When I lived at the Foreign Yogis' Quarters at a
meditation center in Rangoon, someone once left a
cantaloupe as an offering for the monks.  Before I
could get to it to offer it to them, the fruit flies
found it and it was pretty well infested.  I couldn't
resist (well, I've told you my meditation was no
good--I had to do SOMETHING)--I wrote on a slip of
paper, "TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW--FRUIT FLIES LIKE A
CANTALOUPE" and left it on the table.  What a
controversy this started!  I hadn't reflected that I
was the only native English-speaker there.  I was
observing silence and everyone wanted an
explanation--everyone was discussing the meaning--you
could've cut the papañca with a knife...

Thanks for the kind words--just thought you might find
this amusing...

Apologies, Moderators!

mike


 
2599 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear mike,
Some points:
1. none of the sutta or vinaya is obsolete. The bhikkhu sangha
is still valid. I may join the Bhikkhu sangha myself oneday, who
can tell the future. Either way I study the vinaya at times and
find it very useful.

2. If one is a monk, understands correctly and follows the
vinaya correctly and strictly then there is no commiting of
akusala kamma pattha. Also if a layperson understands correctly
and keeps the 5 precepts strictly there is no committing of
akusala kamma pattha. But there can still be an idea of "I" who
is doing all this; superficial, as sarah said.
3. This is not a layperson oriented group as far as I am
concerned. Whenever I went to listen to khun sujin in wat
boworniwet there were always monks and nuns in the audience.

Robert



--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> Still trying to catch up.  Everyone, please excuse me
> and disregard this if you find the topic out of place.
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
> wrote:
> 
> > The point of this was to show that even after many
> > years as a monk, the accumulations don't change.
> > Khun
> > Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to
> > live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal,
> > then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One
> > needs
> > to know one's accumulations very well indeed.
> 
> Shouldn't that be the goal of us all?  How could we
> have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to
> the life of an arahat?
> 
> > > No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?)
> > will
> > > affect past accumulations.  However, new
> > > accumulations
> > > after one has begun observing the 226 precepts
> > will
> > > certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> > > protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> > > vipaka--right?
> > 
> > Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana
> > will protect one from (performing) akusala
> > kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds).  
> 
> Granted, observation without understanding will not
> result in understanding and its attendant eradication
> of ignorance.  But if the precepts are strictly
> observed, even without understanding, how can akusala
> acts be said to have been committed?  
> 
> > Like now, one can
> > try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a
> > sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever
> > the
> > situation.
> 
> Certainly not.
> 
> > K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules?
> 
> It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
> amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
> to adopt them.  This is my central point.  It may be
> true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that
> large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked.  (It
> would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced
> to only the instructions he gave to householders, it
> would fit conveniently into a handbook!)  I'm not even
> saying this isn't true.  You've all come a long way
> toward convincing me that it IS true.  If so, out with
> the vinaya and most of the suttanta.  (The dhamma as
> the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from
> the vinaya--the dhammavinaya).  So we have nothing
> left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
> suttas, after only half the sasana.  Maybe that really
> is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
> eventually.  At this point, the enormity of that
> conclusion is more than I'm prepared for. 
> 
> > Aren't
> > 5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed
> > out
> > that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226
> > precepts too 
> 
> Certainly.  I kept only eight for nine months, and it
> was sometimes very stressful.
> 
> > and A. Cha's article which someone
> > kindly
> > highlighted was a good reminder of this. 
> 
> Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful
> than the householders life (he often joked about
> this).
> 
> > The friend
> > we
> > mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled
> > to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because
> > he
> > found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at
> > his original ordination.  He then had to go to Sri
> > Lanka to take robes again correctly. 
> 
> Excellent!
> 
> > > > I might make similar comments with regard to
> > your
> > > > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > > > life....isn't this thinking? 
> > > 
> > > To be sure!  And I'm not actually complaining
> > about
> > > these things.  In fact, I have a great job, good
> > > friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> > > thing.  I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> > > Alan was, in my own way.  More to the point, 
>  
> > So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if
> > we stay as a monk for this life, what about next
> > life?
> 
> Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different
> answers to that question for monks and householders 
> (except in the case of individual instructions to
> extraordinary householders).
> 
> > > > What about awareness
> > > > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > > > conversations,
> > > > doing boring work etc...realities which are just
> > > as
> > > > real at these times!
> > > 
> > > Of course!  And by the way, a monk's life is just
> > as
> > > full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's. 
> > > Contrary
> > > to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe
> > > that
> > > simply living the 'holy life' does much of
> > anything
> > > to
> > > eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way
> > of
> > > expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.
> > 
> > Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's
> > life...many duties and obligations and listening to
> > dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no
> > possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to
> > follow
> > dhamma!
> 
> True!  As you know, that's the hardest (material)
> thing for me to relinquish, at present...
> 
> ..... When we had our discussion on this
> > theme
> > we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina
> > pointed
> > out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have
> > attended that day.  
> 
> True.  Also not appropriate, unless the Buddha's
> instructions to the monks of his day are, in fact,
> obsolete--as I admit, however reluctantly, they may
> be.
> 
> > > This
> > > brings me back to my other (rather unclearly
> > stated)
> > > motives:  That it's a great job that needs to be
> > > done,
>  
> > Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the
> > most
> > important job to be done. 
> 
> You're right, of course, but I didn't mean 'job' in
> the sense of 'task'--I meant it in the sense of
> 'livelihood'.
> 
> > Being aware and
> > understanding reality now is more important than any
> > idea of a particular lifestyle. 
> 
> To be sure!  However, I think it's clear that the
> Buddha taught that, at least in his day, the
> 'lifestyle' of a bhikku was the best possible resort
> for cultivating awareness and understanding reality.
> 
> > K.Sujin asked why we
> > are so attached to the yellow cloth? 
> 
> I'm not, at all.  Robes are just a practical solution
> to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable
> minimum.  I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them
> to be anything else (aside for some peripheral
> symbolic uses).
> 
> > This is not to
> > say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha
> > as
> > preserver of the Teachings through the ages. 
> 
> True, but it MAY be obsolete, just the same.  After
> all, we have books and computers now...
>  
> > > and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> > > kamma-pathas.  
> 
> > superficially if at all....
> 
> Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to
> not committing kamma-pathas.    
> 
> > Jonothan gave the example
> > of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does
> > nothing
> > to eradiacate the real problem.
> 
> True, but an equivocation--the real problem you're
> referring to is ignorance; the real problem above was
> akusala kamma.
>  
> > By the way, as Robert pointed out in
> > > a
> > > recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything
> > we
> > > want to do.  I realize that this intention is
> > > conditioned almost entirely by the three
> > unwholesome
> > > roots.  That's the way it has to be and, I assume,
> > > has
> > > been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since
> > > the
> > > days of the arahats.  However, I don't think that
> > > this
> > > is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do
> > you? 
> > > If I waited until my motives were completely pure,
> > I
> > > would never have performed any act of dana, sila
> > or
> > > bhavana.
> > 
> > Well, different moments and different cittas as
> > usual.
> > i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve
> > the
> > Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing
> > more
> > understanding. These you are doing now with your
> > excellent contributions here.
> 
> I truly think you're too kind.  I don't see myself
> being able to guide others for years, if ever.  As for
> the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation
> comes just from having read the suttas--the
> instructions are quite unambiguous.  Maybe they're
> also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good
> intentions regarding the rest are probably out the
> window too...
> 
> > > please feel free to post any of this you'd like to
> > > get
> > > something going.
> > >  
> > Well, actually you have posted it to the list 
> 
> I did, didn't I--absent-minded as usual.
> 
> > and
> > pls
> > keep up yr responses to the list. 
> 
> Are you sure?  The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I
> can't help thinking it might be better to continue
> off-list, for those who are interested.
> 
> Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing me
> to continually re-examine my thinking on this...
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
 
2600 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !

 
  Dear Mike,
Love it.
robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> , you would be the most
> > fruitful, 
> 
> A fruit fly, maybe?  This reminds me of a funny story:
> When I lived at the Foreign Yogis' Quarters at a
> meditation center in Rangoon, someone once left a
> cantaloupe as an offering for the monks.  Before I
> could get to it to offer it to them, the fruit flies
> found it and it was pretty well infested.  I couldn't
> resist (well, I've told you my meditation was no
> good--I had to do SOMETHING)--I wrote on a slip of
> paper, "TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW--FRUIT FLIES LIKE A
> CANTALOUPE" and left it on the table.  What a
> controversy this started!  I hadn't reflected that I
> was the only native English-speaker there.  I was
> observing silence and everyone wanted an
> explanation--everyone was discussing the meaning--you
> could've cut the papañca with a knife...
> 
> Thanks for the kind words--just thought you might find
> this amusing...
> 
> Apologies, Moderators!
> 
> mike


 
2601 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  > A fruit fly, maybe?  This reminds me of a funny story:
> When I lived at the Foreign Yogis' Quarters at a
> meditation center in Rangoon, someone once left a
> cantaloupe as an offering for the monks.  Before I
> could get to it to offer it to them, the fruit flies
> found it and it was pretty well infested.  I couldn't
> resist (well, I've told you my meditation was no
> good--I had to do SOMETHING)--I wrote on a slip of
> paper, "TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW--FRUIT FLIES LIKE A
> CANTALOUPE" and left it on the table.  What a
> controversy this started!  I hadn't reflected that I
> was the only native English-speaker there.  I was
> observing silence and everyone wanted an
> explanation--everyone was discussing the meaning--you
> could've cut the papañca with a knife...
> 
> Thanks for the kind words--just thought you might find
> this amusing...


Dear Mike,

Scrumptious!!! (- the story, not the cantaloupe!!!)

Amara

 
2602 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  dear sir mike,

dont worry about the orientations.Please keep the discussion-thread alive.
Every internal orientation(towards laylife or towards monklife) needs to be paid
attention and examined.


00
 7
\/

regds.

 
2603 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time !

 
  
Ö
\/ mmmph.... hahaha..


00
 7
\/  mmmph....hehehe

 
2604 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Mike,
An initial reaction of mine sometime ago was, "Go ahead Mike,
become a monk. I think you will be a good one. The sangha in
it's present state, needs someone with your kind of dedication
to keep check, however little, it's force of decline."
I thought that Sarah's and others' opinion on this matter would
only be healthy suggestions, keeping in your awareness the various
pitfalls that you might otherwise overlook.
It is my opinion (which I hope is not a burden to me), that
2500 yrs. is a very short time; in fact at some moments it seems
just like yesterday, for the sangha as an institution, and hence the
vinaya, and parts of the sutta addressed mainly to monks, to
become obsolete. I think firstly that the institution of monkhood
should be seen as being on a different plane. That we laypeople
must be careful about using 'our' normal everyday sense of
judgement to view 'their' normal everyday life. And even to use
our understanding of dhamma to make any conclusion about
them. It is true that monks and laypersons are ultimately the same,
in that we are the 'five khandhas', and hence it being valid that
we have the same point of reference from which to view their
understanding. What I do however see as an important point of
departure, is that the layperson decides to forgo of the 'known
past' to embrace a new way of life, a world in which all his
past ways of reacting to stimuli has to change.
Surely along the way, since past accumulations are so tough, it
is possible that he might develop along the path even more slow
than he himself might, had he remained a layperson. But none is
'born' a monk, and the decision has to be made. That decision
is made, when we are very young, perhaps by force of
circumstance, or when we are older, without any, little or relatively
high understanding. But once we are in it, the world changes.
We may bring in various degrees of the world along with us, and
we might even complicate our world even more when we are in it.
But this is all a matter of each persons kamma as it is in the
layperson's
world. But the rules ARE different, because the world IS different.
I think that this discussion is important for me. I need to learn from
everyone's opinion, because I think I have so many unquestioned
ditthi, infact I have so little confidence in my own view that I would
not have written had you not suggested to keep this topic off-list.
My interest has been in part due to my own wish that I become
a monk in my next life,(perhaps because the grass is greener on
the other side of the fence),and also because I feel the need for
the institution of monkhood to flourish in order that laypersons
like myself, may come in contact and be inspired by the Triple
Gem. I am certain that, had there not been good monks out
there, I would not be here today.
Lately I've noticed how my thinking is so conditioned by certain
habitual ways of reasoning. I tend to overlook certain subjects
which are so obvious to others. Especially with this group, where
thinking in terms of 'elements' is done with so much ease, I am
still stuck with thinking in terms of 'events' happening in 'time'.
I'm sure it has been the case here too. That is why it is so important
to 'discuss'. And so I will now comment on some of your points;

> Shouldn't that be the goal of us all?  How could we
> have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to
> the life of an arahat?

As I stated above, the world is different for both.The difference
here I think is that the monk has this goal more or less constantly
in mind, whereas we have other things to 'think' about.

> Granted, observation without understanding will not
> result in understanding and its attendant eradication
> of ignorance.  But if the precepts are strictly
> observed, even without understanding, how can akusala
> acts be said to have been committed?

As I commented to someone at our 'saturday discussion' here,
that while observing a precept (without understanding), we are
at that moment, 'thinking about observing' and hence postponing
the observing of reality arising at that moment. However it is my
opinion that there are many degrees of panna, we do not need
to have complete understanding of the vinaya to observe them,
but only enough to realize that they were handed down by
Sammasambuddha and hence perfect for its purpose. Secondly,
understanding that all these rules are for the development of
perfect sila which would enhance a side by side development
of panna, I think there is no reason to follow any rule unwillingly.
Ofcourse our accumulations exist and there are many many more
moments when moha, dosa and lobha take rein, but panna also
can. The little panna that says,"This is your life now, if you do
this, that will be. If you do that, this will be."

> It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
> amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
> to adopt them.  This is my central point.

Yes, since you say it (I haven't read anything mysel),I
think so too.

> So we have nothing
> left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
> suttas, after only half the sasana.  Maybe that really
> is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
> eventually.

My personal opinion is; read the abhidhamma for the fact
about ultimate reality, and read the sutta for case examples
about it's manifestations in the conventional world, in order
that we might have a 'better' understanding of the ultimate
realities.

> Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful
> than the householders life (he often joked about
> this).

Yes I think so too, but for me it may be the case of the grass
being greener.

> Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different
> answers to that question for monks and householders
> (except in the case of individual instructions to
> extraordinary householders).

I don't know, but I would assume that he did. But I am
curious now, about these cases where the teaching was
specifically for monks and the so called 'extraordinary
householders', can you please give examples?

> True!  As you know, that's the hardest (material)
> thing for me to relinquish, at present...

It seems to me that you are at this point, not willing to give up
your present world. The computer is just a source of the
teachings and discussion. Do you wish that you could become
a monk and at the same time be able to surf the net?

> I'm not, at all.  Robes are just a practical solution
> to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable
> minimum.  I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them
> to be anything else (aside for some peripheral
> symbolic uses).

I do not think Acharn Sujin meant it this way either. I think
that she meant by the 'yellow cloth' to mean the whole idea
of becoming a monk.

> Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to
> not committing kamma-pathas.

Easier to follow with some necessary understanding.

> I truly think you're too kind.  I don't see myself
> being able to guide others for years, if ever.  As for
> the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation
> comes just from having read the suttas--the
> instructions are quite unambiguous.  Maybe they're
> also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good
> intentions regarding the rest are probably out the
> window too...

Like it has been pointed out before, the dhamma is so deep
that any interpretation is bound to fall short of intended
meaning. We can't question the Buddha's teachings, but we can
express our understanding and test it.

> Are you sure?  The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I
> can't help thinking it might be better to continue
> off-list, for those who are interested.

I am lay Mike, only because I can't become a monk.

> Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing me
> to continually re-examine my thinking on this...

Same here from you.
Hope I didn't bore anyone with this long post.

Sukin.

 
2605 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Mike, Dan & friends,

I just came across a reference to the 'four kinds of
fear' in BB's translation of the commentary notes to
the Samannaphala Sutta: (p.63 for those who have it)

.....herein, there are four inds of fear:  fear as
mental anxiety (citt'utrasabhaya), fear as knowledge
(nanabhaya), fear as a fearful object (arammanabhaya)
and fear as moral dread (ottappabhaya)...

Fear as mental anxiety is the kind of dosa we're all
too familiar with (and this is the one in the passage
that King Ajatasattu experiences as he approaches the
Buddha)

Fear as knowledge is the one Robert and Amara have
given full details on. Here in the Comy it also quotes
the passage from the Vis, stressing 'it does not fear'

Fear as a fearful object  is 'something from which
fear arises' 

Moral dread is the one I discussed- the 'moral shame'
in akusala.

This is an area where there can be and is a lot of
misunderstanding I think...as in your fire and
brimstone story.....

Sarah

Mike (or Fruitfly Sir if you prefer), I'm about to
start back to my teaching so there may be delays to
other posts and I can see this is going to be one of
those busy post months...so apologies for any delays
in advance.

Alex, so good to have you back with your humour and
kind & constructive comments. Do hope your father's
doing o.k....

When I switched on my list here on yahoo today there
was an advertisement at the top above the list which
said "Ultimate Reminders'.....(actually an ad for
calendars, but just the heading that caught my
eye)...if we have to have ads, this seems pretty
appropriate!

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for the helpful comments.
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
> wrote:
> 
> > The Buddha never recommended any kinds of dosa
> > (aversion). I wonder if you are referring here to
> > hiri
> > and ottappa often translated as moral shame and
> fear
> > of blame? 
> 
> Very likely, yes.  I first heard this a long time
> ago.
>  The (very decent) monk I heard it from was of a
> somewhat anti-scholastic bent, and was possibly not
> very careful of the translation.  
> 
> > From the English translations it can sound
> > as if these are kinds of aversion about misconduct
> > which is why we have to study the meaning of the
> > Pali.
> 
> This is the way I took him to mean it.  He also
> placed
> a great deal of emphasis on sila (much more than on
> samadhi or pañña) and I suspect would not have
> minded
> people (monks especially!) feeling fear associated
> with the idea of akusala kamma--though I may have
> misunderstood him.
> 
> > The translation as fear can be misleading. S'times
> > hiri is translated as conscience or conscientious
> > scruples and ottappa as seeing the danger in
> blame.
> > Maybe these sound more 'wholesome'. 
> 
> Well, these do make sense, don't they?  In fact,
> 'seeing danger in the slightest transgression', for
> example, isn't exactly the same as fear.  In fact, I
> find it reassuring, a sort of sense of security.
>  
> > In fact these are both sobhana cetasikas
> (wholesome
> > or
> > beautiful) accompanying each sobhana citta
> > (wholesome
> > consciousness) so there can be no aversion
> involved.
> 
> Well then, I guess we can be sure that, if we're
> experiencing domanassa, we're not experiencing hiri
> or
> ottappa.  Interestingly, that was the downfall of
> this
> monk's dhamma talk; it tended to (I think) try to
> inspire fear and shame, kind of like a puritanical
> fire-and-brimstone sermon.  Never seemed quite
> right,
> to me...
> 
> > Hiri refers to shame of akusala (unwholesomeness)
> > and
> > ottappa refers to fear of blame or seeing the
> danger
> > of blame. The opposites (ahirika and anottappa)
> are
> > shamelessness and recklessness. The more
> > undestanding
> > sees the danger and impurity of akusala, in a
> > wholesome sense, the more hiri and ottappa will be
> > developed. 
> 
> I guess if you see (and heed) the warning sign, you
> don't have to experience the fear of driving off the
> cliff!
> 
> > In the Vis., it talks about  them as the
> > proximate condition for sila:
> > 
> > ...For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa)
> > are
> > in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when
> > they are not, it neither arises nor persists...
> > 
> > I highly recommend the chapter on these in
> Cetasikas
> > by NVG which I think you've bought. 
> 
> Yes, I do have a copy, but have to finish AIDL
> first! 
> This may take a while (at the rate I'm going...!)
> 
> > Hope this helps 
> 
> Definitely!
> 
> > and apologies if I misunderstood you
> > as always!
> 
> Not at all--thanks again.
> 
> Rgds back at you!
> 
> mike
> 
>


 
2606 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 6:08pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
> amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
> to adopt them.  This is my central point.  


Dear Mike,

If I am not mistaken, the Buddha did not spend most of his life 
exhorting people to become Bhikkhu, although he did highly praise 
the ordained life.  He also praised brahmas and devas for their 
virtues which does not mean that he meant for people to become those 
beings, he was stating a fact.  You will have seen that he taught 
laypeople according to their status as well, how to be anything from 
a good robber to a good king, not to mention father, mother, sons, 
daughters, husbands and wives, students and everything else when he 
was asked.  

He did praise the ordained life to bhikkhus, and the majority of his 
teachings were for them since they were the ones that surround him 
and followed him to hear his teachings to others as well.  And at 
first they were mainly arahantas or those with accumulations to 
become one, as he alone could really tell.  You will notice that he 
also told many laypeople in those days not to become bhikkhus, as 
they could live the dhamma in daily life, according to their 
accumulations.


It may be
> true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that
> large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked.  (It
> would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced
> to only the instructions he gave to householders, it
> would fit conveniently into a handbook!)  I'm not even
> saying this isn't true.  You've all come a long way
> toward convincing me that it IS true.  If so, out with
> the vinaya and most of the suttanta.  (The dhamma as
> the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from
> the vinaya--the dhammavinaya).  So we have nothing
> left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
> suttas, after only half the sasana.  


I don't see why you would want to waste such a collection of 
knowledge which could all add to your understanding of the truth as 
it really is, it's as if you don't need the encyclopedia to go to 
work each day so let's chuck it all, surely you don't mean that!  
Even in the vinaya there are rules that could make any society run 
more smoothly, if anyone cared to apply them, some are even normal 
social graces such as not chewing noisily.

The thing is that while a lot of the rules might come naturally for 
some people today, some are things natural only to the arahanta or 
the anagami- although some anagami in the times of the Buddha were 
also laypeople who never became ordained.  For the arahanta, they 
would naturally enter the order and just as naturally live the life 
of the bhikkhu, vinaya and the rest to be added to or not, their 
inclinations would never be for anything outside the vinaya anyway.

This is not so for most bhikkhus today, as far as I see they seek 
ways to 'modernize' the rules, in other words break or bend them 
towards what they consider convenient.  The vinaya says no gold or 
silver, what about bank accounts?  Had the Buddha lived till now, 
the vinayas would have grown with the ways people try to just beat 
the fine prints, I would say.  All of the teachings are about kilesa, 
and how to attenuate our accumulations of them, so every word is 
useful, depending on our level of understanding them, or even to 
read them.


Maybe that really
> is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
> eventually.  At this point, the enormity of that
> conclusion is more than I'm prepared for. 


According to predictions, you don't have to worry about the Vinaya 
or the Sutta, the first book to disappear, just because people will 
cease to study it, will be the Abhidhamma.  Which is why we are 
extremely lucky to be alive while it is still more or less intact.  
No need to chuck anything out, time and others will do it for you, 
in the meantime before they all disappear, take the opportunity to 
study as much of anything as you want, you never know when you will 
get to see anything again!  

Anumodana in your wanting to preserve the vinaya, most bhikkus 
wouldn't even want to study even that these days, much less observe 
all of the over 200 of them!

Amara

 
2607 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 6:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Very helpful Amara, I'll just add alittle:
> 
> 
> > It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
> > amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
> > to adopt them.  This is my central point.  
> 
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> If I am not mistaken, the Buddha did not spend most of his
> life 
> exhorting people to become Bhikkhu, although he did highly
> praise 
> the ordained life.  He also praised brahmas and devas for
> their 
> virtues which does not mean that he meant for people to become
> those 
> beings, he was stating a fact.  You will have seen that he
> taught 
> laypeople according to their status as well, how to be
> anything from 
> a good robber to a good king, not to mention father, mother,
> sons, 
> daughters, husbands and wives, students and everything else
> when he 
> was asked.  
> 
> He did praise the ordained life to bhikkhus, and the majority
> of his 
> teachings were for them since they were the ones that surround
> him 
> and followed him to hear his teachings to others as well.  And
> at 
> first they were mainly arahantas or those with accumulations
> to 
> become one, as he alone could really tell.  You will notice
> that he 
> also told many laypeople in those days not to become bhikkhus,
> as 
> they could live the dhamma in daily life, according to their 
> accumulations.

_________
VERy good. Just one point "he also told many laypeople not to
become bhikkhus" - is that accurate. Or is it that he only
recommended monkhood for those with accumulations. Certainly
when you read all the suttas he met so many laypeople - many of
whom were sotapanna-anagami or about to becoem it and he didn't
tell them to become monks. Why not? he knew it wasn't the right
life for them. 
Related to this in a couple of suttas a layman listens to the
buddha and then says "well must go now". later the Buddha
comments "if that man had listened for another short while he
would have become sotapanna". Now you might wonder why the
Buddha didn't entreat the person to stay. It is because of the
anattaness of dhammas. Even the buddha can't make someone have
awreness- it depends on conditions. people find this hard to
accept; so, for example, we have all these exhortations to sit
and concentrate as if this is all it takes to have
satisampajana. So easy also to think that the monks life must
make it easy to have satipatthana. 
>___________ 
> 
> It may be
> > true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that
> > large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked.  (It
> > would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced
> > to only the instructions he gave to householders, it
> > would fit conveniently into a handbook!)  I'm not even
> > saying this isn't true.  You've all come a long way
> > toward convincing me that it IS true.  If so, out with
> > the vinaya and most of the suttanta.  (The dhamma as
> > the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from
> > the vinaya--the dhammavinaya).  So we have nothing
> > left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
> > suttas, after only half the sasana.  
> 
> 
> I don't see why you would want to waste such a collection of 
> knowledge which could all add to your understanding of the
> truth as 
> it really is, it's as if you don't need the encyclopedia to go
> to 
> work each day so let's chuck it all, surely you don't mean
> that!  
> Even in the vinaya there are rules that could make any society
> run 
> more smoothly, if anyone cared to apply them, some are even
> normal 
> social graces such as not chewing noisily.
> 
> The thing is that while a lot of the rules might come
> naturally for 
> some people today, some are things natural only to the
> arahanta or 
> the anagami- although some anagami in the times of the Buddha
> were 
> also laypeople who never became ordained.  For the arahanta,
> they 
> would naturally enter the order and just as naturally live the
> life 
> of the bhikkhu, vinaya and the rest to be added to or not,
> their 
> inclinations would never be for anything outside the vinaya
> anyway.
_______


Yes Khun sujin recommends study of the vinaya for laypeople. It
is the outward sign of a life of satipatthana .
>_________________ 
> This is not so for most bhikkhus today, as far as I see they
> seek 
> ways to 'modernize' the rules, in other words break or bend
> them 
> towards what they consider convenient.  The vinaya says no
> gold or 
> silver, what about bank accounts?  Had the Buddha lived till
> now, 
> the vinayas would have grown with the ways people try to just
> beat 
> the fine prints, I would say.  All of the teachings are about
> kilesa, 
> and how to attenuate our accumulations of them, so every word
> is 
> useful, depending on our level of understanding them, or even
> to 
> read them.
> 
> 
> Maybe that really
> > is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
> > eventually.  At this point, the enormity of that
> > conclusion is more than I'm prepared for. 
> 
> 
> According to predictions, you don't have to worry about the
> Vinaya 
> or the Sutta, the first book to disappear, just because people
> will 
> cease to study it, will be the Abhidhamma.  Which is why we
> are 
> extremely lucky to be alive while it is still more or less
> intact.  
> No need to chuck anything out, time and others will do it for
> you, 
> in the meantime before they all disappear, take the
> opportunity to 
> study as much of anything as you want, you never know when you
> will 
> get to see anything again!  
> 
> Anumodana in your wanting to preserve the vinaya, most bhikkus
> 
> wouldn't even want to study even that these days, much less
> observe 
> all of the over 200 of them!

TOO much generalisation. there are still most Bhikkhus who study
the vinaya to some degree. 

robert
--- 


 
2608 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 6:47pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > TOO much generalisation. there are still most Bhikkhus who study
> the vinaya to some degree. 


Dear Robert,

What I meant by study is also to understand and observe the Vinaya 
in which case  I would also like to amend that to ALMOST ALL 
bhikkhus do not study the rules, which is why we have all the 
scandals in karaokes.  The latest in Thailand is a picture of monks 
fishing in a river in Kanchanaburi, by the way.

Amara

 
2610 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 7:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Robert,

Very important point here;

> Related to this in a couple of suttas a layman listens to the
> buddha and then says "well must go now". later the Buddha
> comments "if that man had listened for another short while he
> would have become sotapanna". Now you might wonder why the
> Buddha didn't entreat the person to stay. It is because of the
> anattaness of dhammas. Even the buddha can't make someone have
> awreness- it depends on conditions. people find this hard to
> accept; so, for example, we have all these exhortations to sit
> and concentrate as if this is all it takes to have
> satisampajana. So easy also to think that the monks life must
> make it easy to have satipatthana.

Thanks a  lot.

Sukin.

 
2611 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 7:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  dear Sukin,
A lovely honest and modest post. See my comments.
--- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> An initial reaction of mine sometime ago was, "Go ahead Mike,
> become a monk. I think you will be a good one. The sangha in
> it's present state, needs someone with your kind of dedication
> to keep check, however little, it's force of decline."
_____
I still think this way!
_____


> I thought that Sarah's and others' opinion on this matter
> would
> only be healthy suggestions, keeping in your awareness the
> various
> pitfalls that you might otherwise overlook.
> It is my opinion (which I hope is not a burden to me), that
> 2500 yrs. is a very short time; in fact at some moments it
> seems
> just like yesterday, for the sangha as an institution, and
> hence the
> vinaya, and parts of the sutta addressed mainly to monks, to
> become obsolete. 

_____
Yes, not obsolete. The attakattha says though that the sasana
will only last 5000 years. And before that time the bhikkhu
sangha will disappear. Already 1000 years ago the bhikkhuni
sangha became extinct.
________
I think firstly that the institution of
> monkhood
> should be seen as being on a different plane. That we
> laypeople
> must be careful about using 'our' normal everyday sense of
> judgement to view 'their' normal everyday life. And even to
> use
> our understanding of dhamma to make any conclusion about
> them. It is true that monks and laypersons are ultimately the
> same,
> in that we are the 'five khandhas', and hence it being valid
> that
> we have the same point of reference from which to view their
> understanding. What I do however see as an important point of
> departure, is that the layperson decides to forgo of the
> 'known
> past' to embrace a new way of life, a world in which all his
> past ways of reacting to stimuli has to change.
_________
This could be  superficial? There are only dhatus, elements. How
can anyone just change? Could someone who loves the taste of
mango, for instance, just stop liking it. 
This is what people think - become monk and I will be different,
I will stop having desires. It can't work that way. It is just
khandas as you said. Now there are stimuli happening all the
time - but only by satipatthana is there a gradual change in
reaction. That is why those who develop satipatthana are said to
be like bhikkhu. 
You know that we revere the triple gem: Buddha, dhamma, and
sangha . The meaning of sangha here is the 4pairs of enlightened
ones - and this includes laywoman and men and excludes any
unenlightened monks.
________
> Surely along the way, since past accumulations are so tough,
> it
> is possible that he might develop along the path even more
> slow
> than he himself might, had he remained a layperson. But none
> is
> 'born' a monk, and the decision has to be made. That decision
> is made, when we are very young, perhaps by force of
> circumstance, or when we are older, without any, little or
> relatively
> high understanding. But once we are in it, the world changes.
______
Does it change? Only if satipatthana is developed.
_____
> We may bring in various degrees of the world along with us,
> and
> we might even complicate our world even more when we are in
> it.
> But this is all a matter of each persons kamma as it is in the
> layperson's
> world. But the rules ARE different, because the world IS
> different.
> I think that this discussion is important for me. I need to
> learn from
> everyone's opinion, because I think I have so many
> unquestioned
> ditthi, infact I have so little confidence in my own view that
> I would
> not have written had you not suggested to keep this topic
> off-list.
> My interest has been in part due to my own wish that I become
> a monk in my next life,(perhaps because the grass is greener
> on
> the other side of the fence),and also because I feel the need
> for
> the institution of monkhood to flourish in order that
> laypersons
> like myself, may come in contact and be inspired by the Triple
> Gem. I am certain that, had there not been good monks out
> there, I would not be here today.
________
You are here because of many conditions but especially because
of accumulations of wisdom. 
________
> Lately I've noticed how my thinking is so conditioned by
> certain
> habitual ways of reasoning. I tend to overlook certain
> subjects
> which are so obvious to others. Especially with this group,
> where
> thinking in terms of 'elements' is done with so much ease, I
> am
> still stuck with thinking in terms of 'events' happening in
> 'time'.

__________
So good that you see this already sukin. This is what change
means in the deeper sense. A gradual wearing away of atta-sanna
and a gradual development of anatta-sanna. This is not dependent
on being a monk.
______
> I'm sure it has been the case here too. That is why it is so
> important
> to 'discuss'. And so I will now comment on some of your
> points;
> 
> > Shouldn't that be the goal of us all?  How could we
> > have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to
> > the life of an arahat?
> 
> As I stated above, the world is different for both.The
> difference
> here I think is that the monk has this goal more or less
> constantly
> in mind, whereas we have other things to 'think' about.
> 
> > Granted, observation without understanding will not
> > result in understanding and its attendant eradication
> > of ignorance.  But if the precepts are strictly
> > observed, even without understanding, how can akusala
> > acts be said to have been committed?
> 
> As I commented to someone at our 'saturday discussion' here,
> that while observing a precept (without understanding), we are
> at that moment, 'thinking about observing' and hence
> postponing
> the observing of reality arising at that moment. However it is
> my
> opinion that there are many degrees of panna, we do not need
> to have complete understanding of the vinaya to observe them,
> but only enough to realize that they were handed down by
> Sammasambuddha and hence perfect for its purpose. Secondly,
> understanding that all these rules are for the development of
> perfect sila which would enhance a side by side development
> of panna, I think there is no reason to follow any rule
> unwillingly.

_______
yes, for the monk who develops satipatthana the rules of the
order are so helpful. 
___
> Ofcourse our accumulations exist and there are many many more
> moments when moha, dosa and lobha take rein, but panna also
> can. The little panna that says,"This is your life now, if you
> do
> this, that will be. If you do that, this will be."
> 
> > It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
> > amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people
> > to adopt them.  This is my central point.
> 
> Yes, since you say it (I haven't read anything mysel),I
> think so too.

> > So we have nothing
> > left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
> > suttas, after only half the sasana.  Maybe that really
> > is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
> > eventually.
> 
> My personal opinion is; read the abhidhamma for the fact
> about ultimate reality, and read the sutta for case examples
> about it's manifestations in the conventional world, in order
> that we might have a 'better' understanding of the ultimate
> realities.
-----------
that is much as I see it too.
_________
> > Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to
> > not committing kamma-pathas.
> 
> Easier to follow with some necessary understanding.
> 



 
2613 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 8:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Thank you amara, 
well said!!
--- amara chay  wrote:
> > I think that the most useful way is that the laypeople study
> more 
> dhamma and become less attached to the rites and rituals,
> making the 
> bhikkhu more conscient of their real role as guide and fellow 
> student in the Buddha's teachings.  If they refuse to teach
> the 
> dhamma in the Tipitaka, or even to study them, their lives
> would 
> produce more bad vipaka than good for them without fail.  And
> if we 
> had bhikkhu who could teach the Tipitaka so that others really
> understand the Buddha's teachings, life would be that much
> purer in 
> the Sankha as well.  Without right understanding, even the
> Vinaya 
> would not keep the bhikkhu from even wrong practice, without
> the 
> development of panna that is the real aim of ordination after
> all.
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2614 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:47pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Amara, 
Thanks for your insightful post about bhaya-nana! I think if you 
carefully read my posts, you'll find that we are virtually in full 
agreement, viz. that bhaya-nana is not about dosa as such but 
knowledge about the dangers of illusions, that fear must be "studied" 
as another form of dosa, and that fear itself should not be taken as a 
sign of wisdom arising in itself. 

In the context of a more lengthy discussion with Mike and Robert about 
"fear," I wrote "only after the practice has advanced a considerable 
amount does the 'knowledge of fear' (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at 
which point the arising of fear is a signpost along 
straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the meditator has indeed 
made good progress." Thank you for correcting my careless misstatement 
here. It is not the arising of fear that indicates wisdom, it is the 
arising a certain set of conditions derived from bhanga-nana that in 
turn give rise to fear which is then viewed wisely giving rise to the 
insight that "These formations are indeed fearful," which we then call 
bhaya-nana. 

The point I had been trying to make for several posts is that the 
arising of fear is not necessarily an indicator that the practice has 
gone awry; and that sometimes the arising of fear is associated with 
advances in insight.

There is indeed a real, honest-to-goodness dosa fear that arises and 
serves as a basis for bhaya-nana. In the course of practice, as 
bhanga-nana matures, the "soul" is suddenly rocked by the realization 
that "itself" does not exist but is merely a continually changing 
conglomeration of formations that relentlessly pass away. There is no 
thought of "Hmmm...The 'I' is an illusion," instead the realization 
springs up forcefully and automatically when the conditions are ripe. 
In response, the "I" shudders. The illusory "soul" reacts with fear at 
this insight; but the dosa is quickly recognized in another flash of 
insight, and it is realized that fear is a typical response to the 
notion that "soul" is an empty concept, that non-clinging to 
formations endangers the "soul", that "soul" is little other than 
clinging to formations, and that fear generates formations and is used 
as a tool of the "soul" to perpetuate itself. In reviewing the 
experience, the mind conceptualizes the fear thus: "It has become 
clear that not only do the formations [and their dissolution] generate 
fear, but that the fear itself generates the formations." Mahasi aptly 
summarizes the conceptualization thus:  "These formations are indeed 
fearful." 
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch6.6]

He also writes: "At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear and 
seems helpless," which accords with the notion that the bhaya-nana is 
derived from a real, honest-to-goodness dosa fear. I don't know any 
Tipitaka references to this, and I wouldn't even know where to look 
because my reading has been so limited. Clearly, you have much wider 
knowledge of Tipitaka than I, and I am hoping you can help me with 
Tipitaka references about the bases of bhaya-nana. You cited a book 
"Summary of Paramatthadhamma" that I am unfamiliar with. Is it part of 
the Tipitaka?



Dan

 
2615 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Dear mike,
> Some points:
> 1. none of the sutta or vinaya is obsolete. The
> bhikkhu sangha
> is still valid. I may join the Bhikkhu sangha myself
> oneday, who
> can tell the future. Either way I study the vinaya
> at times and
> find it very useful.

Glad to hear it...
 
> 2. If one is a monk, understands correctly and
> follows the
> vinaya correctly and strictly then there is no
> commiting of
> akusala kamma pattha. Also if a layperson
> understands correctly
> and keeps the 5 precepts strictly there is no
> committing of
> akusala kamma pattha. But there can still be an idea
> of "I" who
> is doing all this; superficial, as sarah said.

Not only can be, but must be, at least most of the
time, until stream-entry...right?  Monks same as
everyone else in this regard, and surely have been--at
least since the days of the arahats...

> 3. This is not a layperson oriented group as far as
> I am
> concerned. Whenever I went to listen to khun sujin
> in wat
> boworniwet there were always monks and nuns in the
> audience.

Yes but, presumably, encouraged to disrobe?  Surely
not to remain ordained...
 
mike


 
2616 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Robert,
Greetings! Thanks for the wonderful reference from Vissuhimagga! 

Buddhagosa wrote: "It does not fear for it is simply the mere 
judgement that past formations have ceased, present ones are ceasing, 
and future ones will cease...it is called 'appearance as terror' only 
because formations in all kinds of becoming ..are fearful in being 
bound for destruction.."

The terror arises with great frequency in everyday living, so much so 
as to be virtually ubiquitous. In bhaya-nana, the mind recognizes this 
fact, viz. that the passing away of formations induces terror. This is 
not a trivial realization because formations pass away continuously, 
so it is a realization that the mind is virtually continually gripped 
by terror because of its clinging to the notion of self and the death 
of that self from moment to moment. Most of the time the terror is not 
noticed, but in bhaya-nana it is seen clearly as terror because for a 
time the mind is able to respond wisely to the terror and realize its 
true nature. True vision of the terror is a mark of progress.

 
 
2617 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 10:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> 

> > 3. This is not a layperson oriented group as far as
> > I am
> > concerned. Whenever I went to listen to khun sujin
> > in wat
> > boworniwet there were always monks and nuns in the
> > audience.
> 
> Yes but, presumably, encouraged to disrobe?  Surely
> not to remain ordained...

I don't think so. Acharn santi a monk who used to sit on the
panel (at wat Bovorn) with Khun sujin did eventually disrobe.
But he had been a student or hers as a monk for over 7years (if
I remember correctly, it might have been even longer). So if he
was encouraged to disrobe it sure took a long time. What is
encouraged is satipatthana and keeping vinaya in accordance with
satipatthana. She  commented to me on how carefully Santi kept
the vinaya and how good this was (when he was still a monk).
In fact, it does happen that some monks listen to khun Sujin and
realise they were not properly living the monks life and so
disrobe. Khun Sujin makes it clear that living the monks life
wrongly is not productive - that could be construed as
encouragement to disrobe by some too. Actually i intend taking
this whole area up with her in more detail when I get to
thailand. 
Robert
> mike
> 
> 



 
2618 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 10:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hari tau hou!

 
  Jody et. Al,

Happy New Years and Sawasdee Pee Mai!!!  Looks like we are off to a
good start with many interesting threads of discussions.  Your post
provoked some thoughts stated below here....
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote:

> Traditionally, Maaori looked at time as cycles not as a measurement.
I wonder if someone would answer what time in the Buddhist sense is? 
From my understanding, it appears to be that since Nama and rupa rise
and fall away immediately: it does not stay, and the same one cannot
ever arise again.  Therefore, time is, in a sense, series of moment of
nama-rupa rising and falling away.  Therefore, no such thing as "time
travel", but there can be many moments of retrospection (pannati,
vitaka, etc.), or actual poramattha (experienced through the mind door,
by people with Jhana).  The smallest unit would be the submoments of
citta: there is no point going any finer grained than that since there
is no "event" that arises and falls faster than that.

> In
> addition,
> time was like a person looking backwards into the past. The past
> filled
> one's
> consciousness through the teachings of one's sub-tribe and tribe. The
> contents of one's
> consciousness was then utilised to live in the present and avert
> mistakes
> made in the past. 
Here, the Buddhist explanation would be: all past accumulations lead to
the present state.  "We" accumulate everything: bad and good teachings,
and in fact, we accumulate ONLY the nama that have arisen and fallen. 
Bad teachings can cause Miccha ditthi and other kilesa to arise, we
then accumulate kilesa.  Good teachings can cause Samma ditthi and
other kusala dhamma to arise, we then accumulate kusala dhamma.  

The group from Cambodia came back and told me this: Tan Ajarn Sujin
explained that panna rising to understand the realities (not at the
satipatthana level, but at the thinking/understanding level) and panna
rising with Satipatthana are accumulated and carried over from life to
life.  However, sanna of pannati (stories of dhamma, without the actual
understanding) does not.  Does this apply even to the Oppapatika pugala
(those who were born whole: deva, brahma, and other dukkhati pugala)?  
As a deva, even memory (but not the actual panna) of the dhamma that
was listened to would be useless to the deva?  Memory of dhamma in this
life is sometimes beneficient: you can consider (think about) the
rising/falling of dhammas at the present based on the memory and you
may develop additional understanding based on the memory.

The future was behind the person looking into the
> past,
> unable to be seen. Though Maaori did believe in clairvoyancy, magic,
> and,
> deities.
> For example, there were accounts of Tohunga (specialised Masters) who
> foretold the
> coming of the Pakeha (in this case, the British), to the point of
> building
> apparatus
> which the Pakeha would bring, such as a boat and some kitchen
> implements, if
> I remember rightly.
My coverage in the tipitika is very limited, and I have only heard that
only the Buddha actually have the nana that can predict the future. 
Does any other entities in the tipitka has such power?  Is it punna
power (power as the result of (non-jhana) kamma)?  Is it power
developed (jhana)?  If you have such power in previous life, maybe the
remnants of it carries over to the human plane and that would explain
some of these phenomenan (besides calling them all fake)???

> to the accepted, things are changing fast. There seems to be a real
> awakening
> to the fact that all things are impermanent not static, and to the
> idea that
> the
> "self" is a conditioned reality.
Now, if we can only realize that for more than a few seconds per day...

Anumodhanna to everybody who helps out each other...

kom


 
2619 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > There is indeed a real, honest-to-goodness dosa fear that arises and 
> serves as a basis for bhaya-nana. In the course of practice, as 
> bhanga-nana matures, the "soul" is suddenly rocked by the 
realization 
> that "itself" does not exist but is merely a continually changing 
> conglomeration of formations that relentlessly pass away. There is 
no 
> thought of "Hmmm...The 'I' is an illusion," instead the realization 
> springs up forcefully and automatically when the conditions are 
ripe. 
> In response, the "I" shudders. The illusory "soul" reacts with fear 
at 
> this insight; but the dosa is quickly recognized in another flash of 
> insight, and it is realized that fear is a typical response to the 
> notion that "soul" is an empty concept, that non-clinging to 
> formations endangers the "soul", that "soul" is little other than 
> clinging to formations, and that fear generates formations and is 
used 
> as a tool of the "soul" to perpetuate itself. In reviewing the 
> experience, the mind conceptualizes the fear thus: "It has become 
> clear that not only do the formations [and their dissolution] 
generate 
> fear, but that the fear itself generates the formations." Mahasi 
aptly 
> summarizes the conceptualization thus:  "These formations are indeed 
> fearful." 
> [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch6.6]
> 
> He also writes: "At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear 
and 
> seems helpless," which accords with the notion that the bhaya-nana 
is 
> derived from a real, honest-to-goodness dosa fear. I don't know any 
> Tipitaka references to this, and I wouldn't even know where to look 
> because my reading has been so limited. Clearly, you have much wider 
> knowledge of Tipitaka than I, and I am hoping you can help me with 
> Tipitaka references about the bases of bhaya-nana. You cited a book 
> "Summary of Paramatthadhamma" that I am unfamiliar with. Is it part 
of 
> the Tipitaka?
> 
> 
> 
> Dan


Dear Dan,

The 'Summary' is not part of the Tipitaka, but the clearest 
introduction of the Tipitaka I have read, with no controversy in the 
explanations of the extremely complex matter.  For example to say 
that real fear is part of the realization of anatta with wisdom 
would be a contradiction to the Visuddhimagga which Robert so aptly 
quoted when he wrote:


Moments of vipassana are all maha-kusala and they can only arise 
with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling.  According to the 
visuddhimagga XXI32about the stage of 'terror', an advanced stage 
of vipassana: "but does the knowledge of appearance as terror fear 
or does it not fear? It does not fear for it is simply the mere 
judgement that past formations have ceased, present ones are 
ceasing, and future ones will cease... it is called 'appearance as 
terror' only because formations in all kinds of becoming ..are 
fearful in being bound for destruction.." (Thank you Robert for the 
timely reference)


The dhamma is a very intricate and interrelated matter, witness all 
the paccaya connection between the citta and the cetasika, the 
accumulated kamma and their vipaka over the innumerable lifetimes.  
If one were not extemely conscientious in studying one could 
misunderstand the teachings, but the Buddha did leave us a guideline 
as to how to determine which is the right interpretations is right, 
we have refer them against other teachings in the Tipitaka on the 
matter, as Mike once posted for us, sorry but I couldn't find the 
exact letter, perhaps Mike could post it again.  All the right 
dhamma would not oppose one another, they must explain one another 
to the fullest, not like in the Bible where you have an eye for an 
eye in the same teaching as turn the other cheek.  In the case you 
mentioned, what you quoted is not affirmed by the Visuddhimagga, nor 
in accordance with other descriptions of the kusala citta, much less 
the mahakusala citta.  

Knowledge also has many levels, so while thinking that there is no 
self could be fearful for those who had never even heard of such a 
concept before or have but did not think about all the consequences.  
But these are only thougts experienced through the mind dvara, the 
experience of things as they really are is not in the least  
terrifying, is just reality as it truly is, no one there at all, and 
so supremely liberating, according to the scriptures.  But this has 
to be with the realization of whatever is appearing at that instant, 
not long trains of thoughts and analysis, no soul nor I to shudder 
or think, there is just the reality that appears, through the six 
dvara, sight, seeing, sound, hearing, smell, sense of smell, etc., 
experienced fully as they really are, such reality with such 
characteristic, even thought, and not the self at all.  No terror, 
only freedom from the self, and the realization that there is still 
so much more to learn, that this is only the first step.  Even at 
deeper levels, according to the explanations in the Tipitaka, it is 
just the realization of arising and falling away, and the 
disillusionment of clinging to such display of falling away.  And it 
is said there could also be piti at having learned the truth, at 
having at last experienced what we have been studying about.

I am not as widely read as many of the people on this list but what 
I understand of the teachings is that anyone can prove the teachings 
for himself and what the Buddha taught about all through the 
Tipitaka are about our six senses which are the causes for us to 
believe that there is a soul or an I since all that we could ever 
experience and remember as an I are through these and only these six 
dvara.  Without any of them at all there would be no soul or memory 
of the soul.  In fact what we take for the world around us and even 
our selves are just things experienced through the six senses, even 
now of you close your eyes you would see the differences of the 
moments when seeing arises and when it does not.  This is the 
difference between having just the rupa, or realities that can 
experience nothing, such as a dead body, or light or invisible 
gasses, and having the nama, or the reality that can experience 
things, such as sight, hearing, thinking, remembering.  In reality, 
what other things are there other than these two?  Yet we take them 
for the self, it is still I who am reading this.  

In order to see the truth more and more clearly, first on the 
intellectual level then on the realization from experience level, 
the Buddha teaches us to study realities that appear, for example 
now through the eyes, the visible object is so different in 
characteristics from sound, smell, taste, touch or thinking.  Or 
from the seeing itself.  They are all different realities that arise 
and fall away, no two different moments are exactly alike, and none 
could control them, bring past moments back to be studied.  Once 
they are gone one has lost the opportunity to study them forever, 
new ones are forever arising and if we are preoccupied with trying 
to do something, the chance to study them as they arise or while we 
are studying would be gone, likewise the chance to add to out 
knowledge of things as they really are.  Only panna that is fully 
developed to a certain level could attain the experience of anatta 
without having to think about it, it arises automatically.  The 
first level of such higher knowledge would be to start with 
experiencing nama as nama, and rupa as rupa, and never be in doubt 
again of which is which, only afterwards could one realize the 
arising and falling away that leads to deeper realization of the 
harm of being deluded by the illusion of the self or anything 
permanent, lasting.

If you are starting your study of the Tipitaka, I highly recommend 
the 'Summary' as an introduction, for the reason I mentioned: so far 
no one has ever been able to prove that any of the explanations 
deviate from the Tipitaka in the slightest, as well as being the most 
coherent in the descriptions of the complex realities.  The most 
important contemporary book in my life, and one of the most 
influential, for me.

Amara

 
2620 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:44pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > Yes but, presumably, encouraged to disrobe?  Surely
> not to remain ordained...


Dear Mike,

Never, you misunderstand: like for everyone else, encouraged to study 
and understand correctly.  Mainly to understand themselves and their 
true accumulations as well.  One of her students is an absolutely 
brilliant abbot of a tiny wat up country who is the eldest brother to 
generals.  He is now 70 and has been a bhikkhu for a very long time, 
and I don't believe anything could make him disrobe, but he has right 
understanding and accumulations, I believe.  He is the exception I 
think of when I said that almost all monks are not interested in 
studying the dhamma for right understanding itself.  Again only the 
individual concerned could really know, and even then not as 
accurately as the Buddha would,

Amara

 
2621 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 0:12am
Subject: Re: Hari tau hou!

 
  > The group from Cambodia came back and told me this: Tan Ajarn Sujin
> explained that panna rising to understand the realities (not at the
> satipatthana level, but at the thinking/understanding level) and 
panna
> rising with Satipatthana are accumulated and carried over from life 
to
> life.  However, sanna of pannati (stories of dhamma, without the 
actual
> understanding) does not.  Does this apply even to the Oppapatika 
pugala
> (those who were born whole: deva, brahma, and other dukkhati 
pugala)?  
> As a deva, even memory (but not the actual panna) of the dhamma that
> was listened to would be useless to the deva?  Memory of dhamma in 
this
> life is sometimes beneficient: you can consider (think about) the
> rising/falling of dhammas at the present based on the memory and you
> may develop additional understanding based on the memory.


Happy New Year, Kom!!!

Great to hear from you!  

On the subject of instantaneous and fully developed rebirth (as 
opposed to transition in the womb or an egg), Khun Aa Nipat had just 
been talking to me about a bhikkhu who had died and been reborn a 
deva who did not realize that he had changed lifetimes, still 
thinking he was a bhikkhu and behaving as one until someone showed 
him that he had indeed changed lives and was just a deva.  
Interestingly, a deva or any higher being could not become ordained, 
although there are said to be a sala sudhamma in all the heavens 
except one, I think, where there are dhamma discussion.  In fact you 
could probably give the references to the appropriate passages in 
the teachings about this!

And yes, I agree that right memory is a wonderful asset that you can 
take with you no matter where!

Anumodana with all your studies,

Amara

 
2622 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 0:37am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Mike,

Thanks for catching up on this thread.  With your message, I had the
opportunity to go back and read the sutta.  Many moments of piti, and
lobha...

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > In other words, is this stating that the Dhamma will
> > not appear to
> > those that have not accumulated the right
> > conditions? 
> 
> I don't know.  I am told that past kamma has a lot to
> do with whether or not you hear the Buddhdhamma. 
> Probably others in the group can explain this much
> better than I can.
In general, any dhamma will not appear to a person if the person
doesn't accumulate enough accumulations: be it kusala vipaka, akusala
vipaka, kusala, akusala, or kiriya.  This is beause all dhammas are
conditioned: without all the conditions that cause the dhamma to arise,
it won't arise.  

Hearing is vipaka.  When someone tells you something that is true or
that is helpful, it is a kusala vipaka.  Buddha taught the ultimate
truth, truth that will bring about the cessation of dukkhas. 
Hearing/Reading about it I think is the ultimate kusala vipaka: there
is no better teaching.  Also consider ther rarity of this kind of
opportunities: there are time when kappas and kappas go by without any
sammasambuddhas.  We are living in the time of Buddha whose sasana
lasts for only 5000 years (a very very very short time).   We can
understand his teaching.  We get the chance to hear it.  We have people
who understand his teachings to help us along.  I can see no better
gift, no better opportunities, no better vipaka.

> > And is the
> > "great person" an araahant?
> 
> I don't think so--it seems too much directed to one
> cultivating the path--don't you think so?  The arahat
> is finished with that.
I have the following observations:
1) Anuruddha dera thought of the 7 thoughts out of the 8.
2) Buddha taught him the 8th.
3) The text implied (to me) that the 8th contributed to his reaching
the enlightenment.
4) An Arahant has all 8 qualities.

kom


 
2623 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 1:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
> > citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
> > from killing for example), there is sati at the
> > level
> > of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
> > these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
> > object. There is giving to a person, though there is
> > no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no
> > understanding of the value of giving at that moment
> > either, so although the wholesome cittas are
> > accumulated they are not developed. Is that
> > confusing?
> 
> Ah--so, if the dana had been performed with sati
> arising with the dana, rather than with the panyatti,
> the citta (what citta, by the way) would have been
> 'accumulated' and developed? 
Sati arises with all Sobhana cittas including dana, samatha bhavana,
and satipathana.   During the danna, panna may or may NOT arise with
it.  Without the panna, you do not "develop" the stronger tendency to
give dana.  The (maybe inaccurate) example would, one is likely to give
dana if one knows explicitly why giving dana is good and beneficial. 
The stronger panna will develop the tendency more strongly.  Take the
following reasons why to give dana and guess which ones are stronger:
giving dana is good, giving dana to those who can't fend for themself
is good, giving dana will give me many good returns, and giving dana
lets go of the akusala and is a condition for the reaching of Nibhanna.

Samatha bhavana is "developed" as the cittas during such time always
arise with BOTH sati and panna.  However, since panna doesn't cognize
the poramattha dhamma (Samatha has pannati as aramana), it is not
satipatthana, and the development toward Nibhanna is not occuring at
such time, but the development to temporary freedom from kilesa IS
being developed.

Satipatthana is "developed" always, as it also arises with panna.  It
has the poramatha as aramana.  It is the only path toward Nibhanna.

Note that for those bent on Samatha bhavana development (including
Anuruddha dera), if they listened and understood Buddha, they most
likely develop BOTH Samatha bhavana and Satipatthana.   Although
Samatha bhavana is NOT satipatthana, it can be a condition for
Satipatthana to arise (in many different ways).

> In other words, if (after sati arises) upadana arises,
> sati doesn't arise...?
Upadana is associated with akusala (lobha).  There can be no sati or
panna arising with akusala cittas.  Sati always arises with kusala
cittas (and other sobhana cittas).  

kom


 
2624  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 1:45am
Subject: Re: Study time !

 
  Dear Sir Mike,

   The story is very funny and charming.  I just love it.

Anumodana for your great sense of humor,
Alex

 
2625  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 1:50am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > Alex, so good to have you back with your humour and
> kind & constructive comments. Do hope your father's
> doing o.k....

   Dear Ms. P.A.,

   Thank you.  My father feels sad from time to time.  Most of the 
time, he's doing fine.  

   I'm glad that the list is as ... fruitful as ever.  I just love 
Sir Mike's joke.  :-)))

Anumodana to your great work and Happy New Year,
Alex

 
2626 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 4:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.  You're probably
right.

mike



 
2627 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 4:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Dan,

I know next to nothing about all this, so just let me
say, very interesting post.  Please excuse my earlier
misimpression.

mike

---  wrote:
> Dear Amara, 
> Thanks for your insightful post about bhaya-nana! I
> think if you 
> carefully read my posts, you'll find that we are
> virtually in full 
> agreement, viz. that bhaya-nana is not about dosa as
> such but 
> knowledge about the dangers of illusions, that fear
> must be "studied" 
> as another form of dosa, and that fear itself should
> not be taken as a 
> sign of wisdom arising in itself. 
> 
> In the context of a more lengthy discussion with
> Mike and Robert about 
> "fear," I wrote "only after the practice has
> advanced a considerable 
> amount does the 'knowledge of fear'
> (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at 
> which point the arising of fear is a signpost along 
> straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the
> meditator has indeed 
> made good progress." Thank you for correcting my
> careless misstatement 
> here. It is not the arising of fear that indicates
> wisdom, it is the 
> arising a certain set of conditions derived from
> bhanga-nana that in 
> turn give rise to fear which is then viewed wisely
> giving rise to the 
> insight that "These formations are indeed fearful,"
> which we then call 
> bhaya-nana. 
> 
> The point I had been trying to make for several
> posts is that the 
> arising of fear is not necessarily an indicator that
> the practice has 
> gone awry; and that sometimes the arising of fear is
> associated with 
> advances in insight.
> 
> There is indeed a real, honest-to-goodness dosa fear
> that arises and 
> serves as a basis for bhaya-nana. In the course of
> practice, as 
> bhanga-nana matures, the "soul" is suddenly rocked
> by the realization 
> that "itself" does not exist but is merely a
> continually changing 
> conglomeration of formations that relentlessly pass
> away. There is no 
> thought of "Hmmm...The 'I' is an illusion," instead
> the realization 
> springs up forcefully and automatically when the
> conditions are ripe. 
> In response, the "I" shudders. The illusory "soul"
> reacts with fear at 
> this insight; but the dosa is quickly recognized in
> another flash of 
> insight, and it is realized that fear is a typical
> response to the 
> notion that "soul" is an empty concept, that
> non-clinging to 
> formations endangers the "soul", that "soul" is
> little other than 
> clinging to formations, and that fear generates
> formations and is used 
> as a tool of the "soul" to perpetuate itself. In
> reviewing the 
> experience, the mind conceptualizes the fear thus:
> "It has become 
> clear that not only do the formations [and their
> dissolution] generate 
> fear, but that the fear itself generates the
> formations." Mahasi aptly 
> summarizes the conceptualization thus:  "These
> formations are indeed 
> fearful." 
>
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch6.6]
> 
> He also writes: "At that time, his mind itself is
> gripped by fear and 
> seems helpless," which accords with the notion that
> the bhaya-nana is 
> derived from a real, honest-to-goodness dosa fear. I
> don't know any 
> Tipitaka references to this, and I wouldn't even
> know where to look 
> because my reading has been so limited. Clearly, you
> have much wider 
> knowledge of Tipitaka than I, and I am hoping you
> can help me with 
> Tipitaka references about the bases of bhaya-nana.
> You cited a book 
> "Summary of Paramatthadhamma" that I am unfamiliar
> with. Is it part of 
> the Tipitaka?
> 
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 



 
2628 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 4:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> In fact, it does happen that some monks listen to
> khun Sujin and
> realise they were not properly living the monks life
> and so
> disrobe. 

Good for her--and them.

> Khun Sujin makes it clear that living the
> monks life
> wrongly is not productive - that could be construed
> as
> encouragement to disrobe by some too. 

And no doubt rightly, in many cases.

> Actually i
> intend taking
> this whole area up with her in more detail when I
> get to
> thailand. 

I'll look forward to the Q&A.

Thanks again,

mike


 
2629 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 4:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hari tau hou!

 
  Dear Kom,

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> Tan Ajarn Sujin
> explained that panna rising to understand the
> realities (not at the
> satipatthana level, but at the
> thinking/understanding level) and panna
> rising with Satipatthana are accumulated and carried
> over from life to
> life.  However, sanna of pannati (stories of dhamma,
> without the actual
> understanding) does not.  

Very interesting!  This is not how I had understood
it.

> Anumodhanna to everybody who helps out each other...

That would certainly include you, Sir...

mike


 
2630 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 4:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> Never, you misunderstand: like for everyone else,
> encouraged to study 
> and understand correctly.  

Of course, pardon the presumption.

mike


 
2631 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 7:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Dear Jonothan,

Glad to finally get to responding to this post:

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> People In The Buddha’s Time 
> Vs. People Now

> This is something which, as far as I know, is not
> discussed in the texts (but then, nor was the
> original
> question – ie. What is the need to study the
> Abhidhamma if it’s all in the suttas anyway?).

No--but I'm becoming more and more comfortable with
the idea that abhidhamma was very carefully and
correctly extracted from the discourses.  And, in the
abscence of verification from the Four Great
References, I think it's fair enough to accept it on
the strength of the Kalama Sutta' These things are
good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and
observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,'
enter on and abide in them.' (Bhikku Bodhi's
translation).
 
> I’m sure you are right when you say that people are
> essentially the same now as in the Buddha’s time. 
> But
> I believe that there is also one important
> difference,
> namely that there were many, many people then with
> much higher accumulated panna than any person has
> now.

This seems to me to be a fair speculation, just on the
strength of the numbers who attained nibbana.  Though
I must say, I don't think the effect of direct
instruction of a Buddha and a bunch of arahats can be
underestimated.  Guess what I'm speculating is, that
if we could bring the Buddha to today in a time
machine, I can't help thinking he might be able to
awaken a few...

> Firstly, and this is admittedly an assumption on my
> part, a Buddha (other than a Pacchekka Buddha)
> arises
> in an age when there are many people who are capable
> of understanding the teachings and ripe for
> attaining
> enlightenment.  

A fair enough assumption--I wouldn't dispute it.

> Looked at from another angle, the
> chance to hear the teaching from the lips of a
> Buddha
> is kusala vipaka of the very highest degree, vipaka
> accruing to those who have developed panna of a very
> high level.  

Yes, or at least have performed incredibly good
kamma--would that be adequate, do you think, without
the high degree of pañña?

> And we do know from the commentaries
> that
> after the Buddha’s death the teachings enter a long
> period of decline, which obviously goes hand-in-hand
> with a lessening grasp of those teachings.

Perfectly good logic, even without the
commentaries--and also supported (predicted) by the
discourses.
 
> However, one can also get an idea of this difference
> in levels of understanding from the suttas
> themselves.
> In many suttas the Buddha asks his listeners ‘Is
> seeing now permanent or impermanent?’  and they are
> able to answer ‘Impermanent’  (and the same for
> visible object, contact, the feeling arising from
> that
> contact etc).  

O.K.  But isn't an affinity for impermanence and the
other characterisics, one of the things that attracts
us to the Dhamma now?
 
> These answers were not given from knowledge learnt
> but
> from direct experience.  Otherwise the listeners
> would
> not have been able to attain enlightenment during
> the
> discourse.  They had levels of panna which
> understood
> the momentary nature of consciousness.  How would
> we,
> if we had not ever studied Dhamma before, have
> answered the same questions?  Would the questions
> even
> have had any meaning to us?

Certainly not without have heard some Dhamma first.
 
> The Need To Study Abhidhamma 
> In Order To Understand The Suttas

> I agree with most of your comments on this point. 
> Looking again at my post I realise that I did not
> choose my words well, for which I must apologise.  I
> certainly did not mean to suggest that knowledge by
> direct experience of the whole or even a substantial
> portion of the Abhidhamma was necessary for
> enlightenment, either then or now.  And as you aptly
> put it, it is depth of insight that breaks the chain
> of conditioned origination.
> 
> My point was simply that, without a certain
> knowledge
> of the Abhidhamma, we would not be capable of
> understanding the suttas correctly, as in the
> example
> of the passage referred to above.  

True.  There are certainly details of conditioned
origination I'd never have understood (I don't think)
intuitively.  It's this fact that's attracted me to
and kept me with this group.

> Hence the need to
> study (=know) abhidhamma to a certain level.  This
> does not mean that there has to be study in the
> commonly understood sense of the word.  We need to
> acquire a certain amount of abhidhamma knowledge. 
> This could be by discussion or reading posts on this
> list, for example.
> 
> Interestingly, the subject of Abhidhamma study, and
> the need to keep it in a proper perspective, was a
> fairly constant theme of the discussions among our
> group in Cambodia.  It was emphasised that the
> proper
> purpose of studying Abhidhamma must be to help us
> understand the true nature of the reality appearing
> at
> he present moment.  Accordingly, only such knowledge
> as can be related to one’s present understanding of
> realities can be of real use.  Anything more is
> intellectual understanding (and, more importantly,
> not
> necessarily pariyatti) and is lost to us at death
> anyway.  (Would others who were at the discussions
> like to supplement here?)
> 
> As we are all beginners, the degree of Abhidhamma
> knowledge that we can fully benefit from must
> actually
> be of a fairly basic level.
> 
> It has always rather intrigued me that this group
> has
> attracted the label of an Abhidhamma group.  Among
> people I think of as real Abhidhamma scholars we are
> perceived as being more concerned with the practice
> than with the intricacies of the Abhidhamma as a
> subject for study in its own right!

Yes, that makes sense.  This group isn't characterized
by the kind of rigid scholasticism with which
abhidhamma is often associated.  I take this to be
because of the insistence on relating it to the
present moment, rather than memorizing volumes of
vocabulary, lists etc.
 
> Mike, I hope I have addressed your points.  Please
> feel free to draw my attention to anything I have
> not
> covered.

> Thanks as usual for bringing up the subject. There
is
> a
> lot more in this for further discussion.

The thanks go to you (and others) for you patient and
thoughtful responses to these questions.  Certainly
this discussion could go on indefinitely, but I think
it's by nature somewhat speculative.  Maybe enough to
say that, if abhidhamma helps to condition penetrating
understanding of paticcasamuppada, then its study
doesn't require any more justification.  

However, I do think these are crucial questions which
are sure to arise again and again, especially with
people new to this approach.

mike


 
 
2632 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 9:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

(Still trying to catch up):

--- amara chay  wrote:

> universally characterized by the
> tilakkhana (three 
> characteristics) of impermanence, ever falling away
> and therefore non 
> self (uncontrollable by anyone).  

Thanks for reminding me of the pali!  Dukkha, anicca
and anatta, yes?

> This is the
> reversal to me, in that 
> other teachings focus on the person 

Very apt, thanks as always...

mike


 
2633 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 9:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

All the experienceable (is there such a
> word?)

['experiential' works, I think] 

mike


 
2634 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 10:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List 1st anniversary

 
  Well-said, Sir.

mike

---  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Friends,
> 
> I wish the group a happy birthday , a happy
> anniversary , a happy new year
> 
> lets keep on helping each other do what is needed to
> be done , to finish what is
>  needed to be finished.
> 
> Dear moderators,
> 
> Thank you very much for pioneering this and serving
> the purpose, so that these
> dynamically like-minds of a group who have been
> mothers,fathers,brothers,sisters
>  of each other for countless times could have yet
> another chance to help each
> other.
> 
> 
> Rgds
> 
> =^-^=
>   _/\_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
2635 From:  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:23am
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > In fact, it does happen that some monks listen to
> > khun Sujin and
> > realise they were not properly living the monks life
> > and so
> > disrobe. 

Strange! Why don't they make a change to lead a proper living way of 
monkhood rather than disrobe? Unless they think they can't.


Just to be pondered:

1. Are arahants referred as wise people? 
2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the sangha order as 
they have all done? 
3. What makes the monkhood so special that they, the arahants, have 
no second thought of it?
4. We are encourage to follow the wise, are we?

Taking robes ia actually a practise of letting go, letting go of our 
desires towards the worldlings. Although it is not necessarily true 
nowadays. But, shouldn't we stick to the ordinary one? If thinking 
that observing 226 precepts is stressful, it seems to me that taking 
robes is just an extra idea of getting rid of lobha etc. And what 
kind of thoughts that gave rise to the thought that "it is 
stressful". Is is the thought that "I don't want to be tied up by the 
rules"? 

By the way, taking robes is not just the matter of self realization 
but also to enhance the Buddhasasana.

Afterall, these are only my own personal viewpoints. Please forgive 
me if the words sound rude. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Lee

 
2636 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:55am
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > All the experienceable (is there such a
> > word?)
> 
> ['experiential' works, I think] 

Dear Mike,

Thanks for all your kind remarks, and for this word, although I think 
the meaning is a bit wider than what I intended:  in my 10th ed. 
Webster's Collegiate it says 'relating to, derived from, or providing 
experience'.  (It's only the providing part I tried to convey!)  

Would love other suggestions, by the way!  Thanks in advance,

Amara

 
2637 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 0:18pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > 1. Are arahants referred as wise people? 


Dear Lee,

The wisest, except for the Buddha (and Paccekhabuddha), in the panna 
to know things as they really are and not live in a world of illusion.

> 2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the sangha order as 
> they have all done? 

In this world, that is the natural state for them, in a way they 
have 'nothing to live for' any more except to live for others since 
nothing can make them suffer even when they have bodily pains like 
everyone else.

> 3. What makes the monkhood so special that they, the arahants, have 
> no second thought of it?

Why don't we have second thoughts about waking up each morning?  It 
just happens (or not).

> 4. We are encourage to follow the wise, are we?


Their paths, yes, but they have reached the end of their journey and 
we have just started to walk.  The Buddha taught us to study things 
as they really are, and the knowledge accumulating the realities 
around us as they appear through the six dvara, right now as we 
experiece them even as we sit here before the computer, could 
gradually grow and lead to higher and higher levels of experiences, 
clearer and clearer realizations of the fact that there is no self.  
The process may take countless lifetimes, but who remembers when 
anyone had started the journey and who is just beginning?  All we 
know, each of us, is that this is the right way and this is where we 
are.  All we have to do is keep walking, and one day we would reach 
that level of wisdom too.  And that if we stop, we would never get 
there.  There is no way to bypass the work and the levels of 
attainment, or else the Buddha would not stress this ekka-maggo.

> 
> Taking robes ia actually a practise of letting go, letting go of our 
> desires towards the worldlings. Although it is not necessarily true 
> nowadays. But, shouldn't we stick to the ordinary one? If thinking 
> that observing 226 precepts is stressful, it seems to me that taking 
> robes is just an extra idea of getting rid of lobha etc. And what 
> kind of thoughts that gave rise to the thought that "it is 
> stressful". Is is the thought that "I don't want to be tied up by 
the 
> rules"? 
> 
> By the way, taking robes is not just the matter of self realization 
> but also to enhance the Buddhasasana.
> 
> Afterall, these are only my own personal viewpoints. Please forgive 
> me if the words sound rude. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Excellent observations from my view, anumodana,

Amara

 
2638 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:27am
Subject: Re: lay life v. monk's life

 
  Dear Mike and Sukin,
May I add my observations to your discussion about the lay life v. the
monk's life.  While observing the monkhood since my son became a monk 6
years ago, I have begun to formulate the following conclusions about the
monkhood here in Thailand. I cannot speak for the monkhood elsewhere, having
had no direct experience with it.

 I agree that the conditions are the same for monks as well as lay people,
i.e., that both are part of the 5 khandas, but also feel that following the
path of vipassana and sathipatthana may be equally as difficult both for the
monk as for the layperson.

For the monk, the adulation and respect he receives is a prime cause for
mana to develop: there is an underlying assumption in Theravada tradtion
that the monk's life is superior to that of the layperson. In addition,
there has been a deterioration in the strict practice of the Vinaya for the
Sangha all throughout the country. For instance: some monks do have
computers and cell phones, and can have lay people "buy" substitute money
orders in the post office so monks can "buy" necessities if they go on trips
outside their temples. Furthermore, we are all aware of the increasing
scandals recently found in the monkhood and of the rise of sects like
Dhammakaya whose beliefs are based on quite a bit of avijja. For the
layperson, the increased attachments to the worldwide consumer culture have
made it more difficult for him to come to study and understand dhamma. All
of this has been conditioned and is part of the process of deterioration
predicted by the Buddha.

Therefore, the decision to become a monk is dependent on one's accumulations
and it should be understood that the monk's life is not necessarily  an
easier path to learn dhamma than that of the layperson, nor is it superior
to that of the layperson. It is just different and has its own set of
stresses that the life of the layperson does not have.

With metta,
Betty

PS: Please note,  I have also met an impressive number of monks whose wisdom
and understanding of dhamma are of great inspiration. Though there is
deterioration of the monkhood on the one hand, there is an equally profound
learning and understanding among the monks as well. As in the lay community,
there are both "good" and "bad".

__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
2639 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 3:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: lay life v. monk's life

 
  Dear Betty,
Thanks for your letter. It reminded me of my mana and the impersonal
nature of all realities. So far I had still been stuck with the notion that
"I" could decide what the best condition would be for me. That "I" would
be able to discriminate between a good teacher and a bad one. That I
would be able to find the perfect temple to join where I would be wisely
guided by the supposedly good teacher. All along I felt as though the
conditions around me; partly created by the teacher and partly by my
own sincerity and determination(now translated as mana), would be
conducive to development of understanding.
It was my mana that kept on telling me that I would not fall into the same
traps as other monks have been. But I am reminded now that moha, lobha
and dosa would lead me more or less exactly where it has all those
unfortunate, though once upon a time, sincere monks.
Robert yesterday, said that even the Buddha himself cannot make someone
have awareness, and that even a momentary lapse off attention can make
all the difference in the world regarding whether one is going to understand
or not. How can moha, lobha and dosa predict anything?
Also upon reflection; though this is just thinking along the lines I have been
used to, it occured to me that the order of the monks was probably
formed around the Buddha as a natural outcome of his having been
there. It definitely was not something that the Buddha himself formed,
thinking that it would enhance understanding in his followers. But once
it was formed it was there, and since it was so close to him, the members
had the chance of being instructed first hand. And when he died they still
had many of his enlighttened disciples to guide them. And it was natural
that this was bound to decline as further it got away in time, from the
living presence of the Buddha himself. I may be wrong about this, but I
am reminded here that that the Buddha would not advocate any
unnatural activity.The bhikkhu sangha may exist now, and people may
become monks, but this must come naturally. Am I ready for it now?
Is there any use to think that I might be ready in my next life or even
tomorrow?

Anumodana,

Sukin.

"Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote:

> Dear Mike and Sukin,
> May I add my observations to your discussion about the lay life v. the
> monk's life.  While observing the monkhood since my son became a monk 6
> years ago, I have begun to formulate the following conclusions about the
> monkhood here in Thailand. I cannot speak for the monkhood elsewhere, having
> had no direct experience with it.
>
>  I agree that the conditions are the same for monks as well as lay people,
> i.e., that both are part of the 5 khandas, but also feel that following the
> path of vipassana and sathipatthana may be equally as difficult both for the
> monk as for the layperson.
>
> For the monk, the adulation and respect he receives is a prime cause for
> mana to develop: there is an underlying assumption in Theravada tradtion
> that the monk's life is superior to that of the layperson. In addition,
> there has been a deterioration in the strict practice of the Vinaya for the
> Sangha all throughout the country. For instance: some monks do have
> computers and cell phones, and can have lay people "buy" substitute money
> orders in the post office so monks can "buy" necessities if they go on trips
> outside their temples. Furthermore, we are all aware of the increasing
> scandals recently found in the monkhood and of the rise of sects like
> Dhammakaya whose beliefs are based on quite a bit of avijja. For the
> layperson, the increased attachments to the worldwide consumer culture have
> made it more difficult for him to come to study and understand dhamma. All
> of this has been conditioned and is part of the process of deterioration
> predicted by the Buddha.
>
> Therefore, the decision to become a monk is dependent on one's accumulations
> and it should be understood that the monk's life is not necessarily  an
> easier path to learn dhamma than that of the layperson, nor is it superior
> to that of the layperson. It is just different and has its own set of
> stresses that the life of the layperson does not have.
>
> With metta,
> Betty
>
> PS: Please note,  I have also met an impressive number of monks whose wisdom
> and understanding of dhamma are of great inspiration. Though there is
> deterioration of the monkhood on the one hand, there is an equally profound
> learning and understanding among the monks as well. As in the lay community,
> there are both "good" and "bad".
>
> __________________________
> Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
> 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
> Bangkok 10900, Thailand
> tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
> 
 
2640 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 5:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Lee,
greetings for the New year.

---  wrote:
>  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > In fact, it does happen that some monks listen to
> > > khun Sujin and
> > > realise they were not properly living the monks life
> > > and so
> > > disrobe. 
> 
> Strange! Why don't they make a change to lead a proper living
> way of 
> monkhood rather than disrobe? Unless they think they can't.

____________
Good point! I should have been more explicit. You know the sutta
(soory no reference) where the Buddha was telling the 180 monks
that even if they accept the daily food in accordance with the
Vinaya BUT they eat it greedily without proper reflectance, that
this can result in them being reborn in hell. 60 of those monks
immediately disrobed; the Buddha didn't try to stop them.
Another 60 spewed blood through shock and were mortally ill. the
other 60 became arahants. 
everyone reacts differently when they hear Dhamma. khun sujin
puts the Dhamma beautifully and clearly, when some realise it
more they learn that their reason for being a monk is not right
and they see that a laylife is better for them at this time. Of
course, as you indicate, others listen and become strenghtened
and live the monks life with renewed purity and diligence. 

We are all so different in our accumulations. I think the main
benefit of these discussions is to learn how profound the life
of a monk is and that we can't just become a monk and expect to
progress faster in Dhamma. Much more complex than most realise.
For those who do understand this, do have the accumualtions for
a monks life then it is of great benefit. It goes perfectly in
hand with the development of satipatthana. It is wide open and
free for the growth of merit.

You also perhaps know the sutta where one of the 80 leading
arahant disciples of the buddha was living far away. he had a
laydisciple who was very wise. the layman kept asking to ordain
but the great monk said "it is better to stay layman, life as
amonk is hard" This happened several times. Each time the layman
would lose his urge to ordain for a while. But it kept coming
back. Eventually he persuaded the monk to ordain him.. 
Do you have a reference for this sutta anyone? i think the
laymans monk name was punna.

I too am just putting my very imperfect and ignorant views on
this issue. It is very deep and way beyond my capacity to really
understand.
Robert

> 
> 
> Just to be pondered:
> 
> 1. Are arahants referred as wise people? 
> 2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the sangha order
> as 
> they have all done? 
> 3. What makes the monkhood so special that they, the arahants,
> have 
> no second thought of it?
> 4. We are encourage to follow the wise, are we?
> 
> Taking robes ia actually a practise of letting go, letting go
> of our 
> desires towards the worldlings. Although it is not necessarily
> true 
> nowadays. But, shouldn't we stick to the ordinary one? If
> thinking 
> that observing 226 precepts is stressful, it seems to me that
> taking 
> robes is just an extra idea of getting rid of lobha etc. And
> what 
> kind of thoughts that gave rise to the thought that "it is 
> stressful". Is is the thought that "I don't want to be tied up
> by the 
> rules"? 
> 
> By the way, taking robes is not just the matter of self
> realization 
> but also to enhance the Buddhasasana.
> 
> Afterall, these are only my own personal viewpoints. Please
> forgive 
> me if the words sound rude. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Lee
> 


 
2641 From:  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 7:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear robert ,

Yes it shows how dangerous the samsara is......

rgds.





Robert Kirkpatrick  on 01/04/2001
03:43:34 PM


Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]




Dear Lee,
greetings for the New year.
---  wrote:
>  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > In fact, it does happen that some monks listen to
> > > khun Sujin and
> > > realise they were not properly living the monks life
> > > and so
> > > disrobe.
>
> Strange! Why don't they make a change to lead a proper living
> way of
> monkhood rather than disrobe? Unless they think they can't.
____________
Good point! I should have been more explicit. You know the sutta
(soory no reference) where the Buddha was telling the 180 monks
that even if they accept the daily food in accordance with the
Vinaya BUT they eat it greedily without proper reflectance, that
this can result in them being reborn in hell. 60 of those monks
immediately disrobed; the Buddha didn't try to stop them.
Another 60 spewed blood through shock and were mortally ill. the
other 60 became arahants.
everyone reacts differently when they hear Dhamma. khun sujin
puts the Dhamma beautifully and clearly, when some realise it
more they learn that their reason for being a monk is not right
and they see that a laylife is better for them at this time. Of
course, as you indicate, others listen and become strenghtened
and live the monks life with renewed purity and diligence.
We are all so different in our accumulations. I think the main
benefit of these discussions is to learn how profound the life
of a monk is and that we can't just become a monk and expect to
progress faster in Dhamma. Much more complex than most realise.
For those who do understand this, do have the accumualtions for
a monks life then it is of great benefit. It goes perfectly in
hand with the development of satipatthana. It is wide open and
free for the growth of merit.
You also perhaps know the sutta where one of the 80 leading
arahant disciples of the buddha was living far away. he had a
laydisciple who was very wise. the layman kept asking to ordain
but the great monk said "it is better to stay layman, life as
amonk is hard" This happened several times. Each time the layman
would lose his urge to ordain for a while. But it kept coming
back. Eventually he persuaded the monk to ordain him..
Do you have a reference for this sutta anyone? i think the
laymans monk name was punna.
I too am just putting my very imperfect and ignorant views on
this issue. It is very deep and way beyond my capacity to really
understand.
Robert
>
>
> Just to be pondered:
>
> 1. Are arahants referred as wise people?
> 2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the sangha order
> as
> they have all done?
> 3. What makes the monkhood so special that they, the arahants,
> have
> no second thought of it?
> 4. We are encourage to follow the wise, are we?
>
> Taking robes ia actually a practise of letting go, letting go
> of our
> desires towards the worldlings. Although it is not necessarily
> true
> nowadays. But, shouldn't we stick to the ordinary one? If
> thinking
> that observing 226 precepts is stressful, it seems to me that
> taking
> robes is just an extra idea of getting rid of lobha etc. And
> what
> kind of thoughts that gave rise to the thought that "it is
> stressful". Is is the thought that "I don't want to be tied up
> by the
> rules"?
>
> By the way, taking robes is not just the matter of self
> realization
> but also to enhance the Buddhasasana.
>
> Afterall, these are only my own personal viewpoints. Please
> forgive
> me if the words sound rude. Please correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Lee
>


 
2642 From:  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 7:39pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Hi Amara,
I appreciate your well considered comments, and anumodana for studying 
scripture so carefully! It is wonderful to hear from you. 

I must say, though, that I must not have expressed myself clearly 
enough in my posts because as I see it there is absolutely no 
contradiction between what I wrote and what Buddhagosa wrote in the 
quote Robert so aptly cited.

The fear is obviously not the knowledge of fear, as I have written 
over and over and over again and as Buddhagosa so very clearly wrote 
and as Robert wrote and as you wrote. There is no disagreement here. 
However, knowledge of fear (bhaya-nana) arises from wise attention to 
a real fear; it arises very soon after a real fear; it is 
conceptualized very rapidly after it is realized. This is something 
that can be experienced very clearly. How to put proper words on the 
experience is not easy, and I would like to find some Tipitaka 
support. Unfortunately, Buddhagosa's quote is utterly silent 
on this point (putting aside the fact that Vissudhimagga is not in 
Tipitaka). Mahasi's quote confirms it, but he is even more removed in 
time from Tipitaka.

 
2643 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 7:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Thanks Gayan,
Excuse my denseness but could you be a little more specific with
the reference to what I said. 
robert
---  wrote:
> 
> Dear robert ,
> 
> Yes it shows how dangerous the samsara is......
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 
> Robert Kirkpatrick  on
> 01/04/2001
> 03:43:34 PM
> 
> > > Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]
> 
> Dear Lee,
> greetings for the New year.
> ---  wrote:
> >  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > > In fact, it does happen that some monks listen to
> > > > khun Sujin and
> > > > realise they were not properly living the monks life
> > > > and so
> > > > disrobe.
> >
> > Strange! Why don't they make a change to lead a proper
> living
> > way of
> > monkhood rather than disrobe? Unless they think they can't.
> ____________
> Good point! I should have been more explicit. You know the
> sutta
> (soory no reference) where the Buddha was telling the 180
> monks
> that even if they accept the daily food in accordance with the
> Vinaya BUT they eat it greedily without proper reflectance,
> that
> this can result in them being reborn in hell. 60 of those
> monks
> immediately disrobed; the Buddha didn't try to stop them.
> Another 60 spewed blood through shock and were mortally ill.
> the
> other 60 became arahants.
> everyone reacts differently when they hear Dhamma. khun sujin
> puts the Dhamma beautifully and clearly, when some realise it
> more they learn that their reason for being a monk is not
> right
> and they see that a laylife is better for them at this time.
> Of
> course, as you indicate, others listen and become strenghtened
> and live the monks life with renewed purity and diligence.
> We are all so different in our accumulations. I think the main
> benefit of these discussions is to learn how profound the life
> of a monk is and that we can't just become a monk and expect
> to
> progress faster in Dhamma. Much more complex than most
> realise.
> For those who do understand this, do have the accumualtions
> for
> a monks life then it is of great benefit. It goes perfectly in
> hand with the development of satipatthana. It is wide open and
> free for the growth of merit.
> You also perhaps know the sutta where one of the 80 leading
> arahant disciples of the buddha was living far away. he had a
> laydisciple who was very wise. the layman kept asking to
> ordain
> but the great monk said "it is better to stay layman, life as
> amonk is hard" This happened several times. Each time the
> layman
> would lose his urge to ordain for a while. But it kept coming
> back. Eventually he persuaded the monk to ordain him..
> Do you have a reference for this sutta anyone? i think the
> laymans monk name was punna.
> I too am just putting my very imperfect and ignorant views on
> this issue. It is very deep and way beyond my capacity to
> really
> understand.
> Robert
> >
> >


 
2644 From:  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Yes robert,

in you post->
"This can result in them being reborn in hell"

this alone says about the danger.
These all 180 people, surely they were really extraordinary,with HUGE
accumulations, to be born whe actually a time a buddha is roaming the earth, to
actually hear dhamma from him, and to be monks in his sasana..etc etc..
yet there is no way that they will be safe from utter dukkha in Hell conditions.
Remember what happened to the monk who entertained some greed for his robe at
his death moment...?
The Buddha must have seen the necessary moment that he should tell the monks
about this 'being reborn in hell'..
And being dilligent ,they (all 180 )took the advice by heart.
And if a single crook monk( like a chabbaggiya bhikkhu) was there I am sure he
would have not taken the buddha seriously and just silently laugh at his
remarks.
the 60 who were mortally wounded were had such remorse upon what buddha has told
about their conduct ( they believed it ) and that should have triggered the
mortal wound.

[ I hope this tells what I thought about it...but it may not be very clear...]

and also in you post-->
"he had a
> laydisciple who was very wise. the layman kept asking to
> ordain
> but the great monk said "it is better to stay layman, life as
> amonk is hard" This happened several times."

With his infinite 'asaadhaarana' knowledge buddha saw what is good for that
particular person and what is not good for him.And that particular person had
such accumulations to be in a position where he had the buddha to advice him...
yet he didnt realise the value of what buddha said..

and WE dont have such luck ( completely due to our own fault ) of being adviced
personally by the Buddha..


dont these really show how dangerous the samsara is...how thick the ignorance
can get??


rgds.

 
2645 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 9:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear gayan,
great- got you. Sorry to make you write all this out but it does
help us. 
actually there is one point where my careless writing style lead
to a minor confusion:
---  wrote:
>  and also in you post-->
> "he had a
> > laydisciple who was very wise. the layman kept asking to
> > ordain
> > but the great monk said "it is better to stay layman, life
> as
> > amonk is hard" This happened several times."
> 
> With his infinite 'asaadhaarana' knowledge buddha saw what is
> good for that
> particular person and what is not good for him.And that
> particular person had
> such accumulations to be in a position where he had the buddha
> to advice him...
> yet he didnt realise the value of what buddha said..
___________________

The full text of what I said was this:
You also perhaps know the sutta where one of the 80 leading
arahant disciples of the buddha was living far away. he had a
laydisciple who was very wise. the layman kept asking to ordain
but the great monk said "it is better to stay layman, life as
amonk is hard" This happened several times. Each time the layman
would lose his urge to ordain for a while. But it kept coming
back. Eventually he persuaded the monk to ordain him.. 
Do you have a reference for this sutta anyone? i think the
laymans monk name was punna.

The Buddha wasn't advising the layman. it was another monk who
was was the teacher of this layman. I just can't remember all
the details here. But what was interesting to me is that an
arahant monk should advise (at least initially) someone not to
ordain. And yet this someone later did ordain and become an
arahant himself. 
There is another case: Two brothers entered the order. the first
one (mahaculla was his name maybe?) became arahant. But the
other was slow and couldn't even meomorise a stanza. The arahant
told his younger brother to leave the temple and (I think) also
the monkhood. Later the Budha saw the slow brother sobbing,
taught him and he too became arahant.
The monks wondered why an arahant should tell someone to leave
the monkhood. the Buddha said it was because he respected the
Dhamma so much and thought that his brother had not the
understanding to benefit the order or the dhamma (or something
like that). 
Points here:
I think we can't ultimately rely on anyone to tell us what to
do. (Except for the buddha but he is no longer around). Neither
can we rely on 'ourselves' to make right decisions (as Sukin
pointed out today). What we can do is learn about dhammas that
are arising now. Then understanding grows and then there becomes
less of ME who is doing anything, including making decisions.
Very slowly the atta-sanna is sanded down. Then the spinning of
the paticasamupada is being trimmed .. Samsara loses its sting
in many ways (even while we are still at the beginning stage)
because less and less is anything taken as self. Robert



 
2646 From:  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 9:42pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Robert, Mike et al.
Didn't Buddha say that after he passed away, the sangha should (or was 
it "could") abolish the minor rules? Not knowing which rules were 
"minor rules," the sangha was at a loss, so changed nothing. If my 
recollection of this story is correct, then part of the vinaya is 
indeed obsolete and has been for 2500 years. Which part? Beats me! I 
guess we just have to keep it, obsolete parts and all!

> Dear mike,
> Some points:
> 1. none of the sutta or vinaya is obsolete. The bhikkhu sangha
> is still valid. I may join the Bhikkhu sangha myself oneday, who
> can tell the future. Either way I study the vinaya at times and
> find it very useful.
> 
> 2. If one is a monk, understands correctly and follows the
> vinaya correctly and strictly then there is no commiting of
> akusala kamma pattha. Also if a layperson understands correctly
> and keeps the 5 precepts strictly there is no committing of
> akusala kamma pattha. But there can still be an idea of "I" who
> is doing all this; superficial, as sarah said.
> 3. This is not a layperson oriented group as far as I am
> concerned. Whenever I went to listen to khun sujin in wat
> boworniwet there were always monks and nuns in the audience.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 


 
2647 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: lay life v. monk's life

 
  AN V, 80

Dear Betty, 

Thanks for the 'up close and personal' report on the
Thai order.  It reminded me a little of the fourth
Anagata-bhayani (Future Dangers) Sutta:  "Furthermore,
in the course of the future there will be monks
desirous of fine lodgings. They, desirous of fine
lodgings, will neglect the practice of living in the
wilds; will neglect isolated forest and wilderness
dwellings; will move to towns, cities, and royal
capitals, taking up residence there. For the sake of
lodgings they will do many kinds of unseemly,
inappropriate things." 

Anguttara Nikaya V.80

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-77.html

Though it doesn't mention cell phones or computers or
even money, it does remind me that the Buddha always
had monks stay in forests and secluded places.

All of your points are well-taken and a timely caution
for anyone considering this line of endeavour.

Thank you, Ma'am,

mike


 
2648 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 9:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Thanks Dan (and thanks for putting yourself on first name
basis),


---  wrote:
> Dear Robert, Mike et al.
> Didn't Buddha say that after he passed away, the sangha should
> (or was 
> it "could") abolish the minor rules? Not knowing which rules
> were 
> "minor rules," the sangha was at a loss, so changed nothing.
_______________
 The arahants at the first council actuslly rebuked Ananda for
not asking the Buddha which of the rules could be abolished.
Since they didn't know they were not going to change anything.
 
_If my 
> recollection of this story is correct, then part of the vinaya
> is 
> indeed obsolete and has been for 2500 years. Which part? Beats
> me! I 
> guess we just have to keep it, obsolete parts and all!
________________
Yep, I concur. Who are we to second guess the buddha. 
This is my approach to the tipitika and commentaries too. 
So many these days think they can tell which parts are 'later'
and which are earlier . They can discern, they think, which
parts of the commentaries are accurate and which aren't (funny
how the parts that are accurate always agree with their own
views?).
Me - I'm prepared to accept that there could be a few errors in
there, here and there. But I sure don't imagine I have the
wisdom to know which parts.
robert



 
2649 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: lay life v. monk's life

 
  Not always Mike. Upali wanted to live as a forest monk but was
asked not to by the Buddha so that he could be one who studied
Vinaya properly. '
Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> AN V, 80
> 
> Dear Betty, 
> 
> Thanks for the 'up close and personal' report on the
> Thai order.  It reminded me a little of the fourth
> Anagata-bhayani (Future Dangers) Sutta:  "Furthermore,
> in the course of the future there will be monks
> desirous of fine lodgings. They, desirous of fine
> lodgings, will neglect the practice of living in the
> wilds; will neglect isolated forest and wilderness
> dwellings; will move to towns, cities, and royal
> capitals, taking up residence there. For the sake of
> lodgings they will do many kinds of unseemly,
> inappropriate things." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya V.80
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-77.html
> 
> Though it doesn't mention cell phones or computers or
> even money, it does remind me that the Buddha always
> had monks stay in forests and secluded places.
> 
> All of your points are well-taken and a timely caution
> for anyone considering this line of endeavour.
> 
> Thank you, Ma'am,
> 
> mike
> 



 
2650 From:  
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 10:07pm
Subject: "...first name basis"

 
  > Thanks Dan (and thanks for putting yourself on first name
> basis),
You know, I'm not sure how everyone else got their name to show up in 
the  "Author" column while my e-mail address is there instead. I must 
have incorrectly filled out the sign-up form for the forum. Also, I 
don't think I had much to do with "putting myself on first name 
basis." I believe Mike was the one to do it. Of course, you may call 
me anything that gets my attention (but I'd recommend not breaking the 
precepts when you do so!) "dhd5" is fine, or "Dan" if you prefer.

 
2651 From: kelvin liew peng chuan   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 10:18pm
Subject: ex-samanera's experience

 
  Hi!
May you all be well and happy.I'm new around here.I wish to share my 
experience as a samanera in relation to the recent discussion.

Although not a full fledge monk, the pressure is already present.As long as 
the ordained ones are of the practising Buddhist lineage, one would be very 
careful of ones conduct for the warning from the Theras of old keep 
resounding in his/her conscience as an ordained.

I keep remembering the fact that the things that i use was offered by people 
to accumulate kusala kamma. If i were to use them unmindfully, then i would 
not be worthy of their offerings and would be like a thief using things that 
was not intended for him. Unwholesome kamma would ripen.

Even though unperfect in nature, I try to do my best in the monastic 
duties(eg.sweeping the temple) and meditation.If i were to laze around in 
robes, then more unwholesome kamma would result.Every opportunity to share 
and learn the Dhamma with lay person and fellow monastic mates was rarely 
missed.

I would also go for alms round , even though it was rarely practised by the 
Bhantes residing there(except for the Vassa period). I reflected that there 
are people out there that lacks the chance to perform meritorious deeds. the 
only was to reach them through alms round.

I was also quite restrained in the senses because of the monastic 
environment.Once a person is in the robes , he/she is also the guardian of 
the Dhamma and the reputation of the Triratana is in their hands. reflecting 
on these facts , being in the robes is a tougher training than climbing 
Mt.Himalaya.As a senior monk put it:one can conquer a whole mountain easily, 
but how many can conquer the defilements of the mind?


 
2652 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 10:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] ex-samanera's experience

 
  Dear Kelvin,
Lovely. Anumodana!
robert
--- kelvin liew peng chuan  wrote:
> Hi!
> May you all be well and happy.I'm new around here.I wish to
> share my 
> experience as a samanera in relation to the recent discussion.
> 
> Although not a full fledge monk, the pressure is already
> present.As long as 
> the ordained ones are of the practising Buddhist lineage, one
> would be very 
> careful of ones conduct for the warning from the Theras of old
> keep 
> resounding in his/her conscience as an ordained.
> 
> I keep remembering the fact that the things that i use was
> offered by people 
> to accumulate kusala kamma. If i were to use them unmindfully,
> then i would 
> not be worthy of their offerings and would be like a thief
> using things that 
> was not intended for him. Unwholesome kamma would ripen.
> 
> Even though unperfect in nature, I try to do my best in the
> monastic 
> duties(eg.sweeping the temple) and meditation.If i were to
> laze around in 
> robes, then more unwholesome kamma would result.Every
> opportunity to share 
> and learn the Dhamma with lay person and fellow monastic mates
> was rarely 
> missed.
> 
> I would also go for alms round , even though it was rarely
> practised by the 
> Bhantes residing there(except for the Vassa period). I
> reflected that there 
> are people out there that lacks the chance to perform
> meritorious deeds. the 
> only was to reach them through alms round.
> 
> I was also quite restrained in the senses because of the
> monastic 
> environment.Once a person is in the robes , he/she is also the
> guardian of 
> the Dhamma and the reputation of the Triratana is in their
> hands. reflecting 
> on these facts , being in the robes is a tougher training than
> climbing 
> Mt.Himalaya.As a senior monk put it:one can conquer a whole
> mountain easily, 
> but how many can conquer the defilements of the mind?
> 



 
2653 From: selamat   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] ex-samanera's experience

 
  Dear Kelvin,
anumodana.


----- Original Message -----
From: kelvin liew peng chuan 
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:18 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] ex-samanera's experience


> Hi!
> May you all be well and happy.I'm new around here.I wish to share my
> experience as a samanera in relation to the recent discussion.
>
> Although not a full fledge monk, the pressure is already present.As long
as
> the ordained ones are of the practising Buddhist lineage, one would be
very
> careful of ones conduct for the warning from the Theras of old keep
> resounding in his/her conscience as an ordained.
>
> I keep remembering the fact that the things that i use was offered by
people
> to accumulate kusala kamma. If i were to use them unmindfully, then i
would
> not be worthy of their offerings and would be like a thief using things
that
> was not intended for him. Unwholesome kamma would ripen.
>
> Even though unperfect in nature, I try to do my best in the monastic
> duties(eg.sweeping the temple) and meditation.If i were to laze around in
> robes, then more unwholesome kamma would result.Every opportunity to share
> and learn the Dhamma with lay person and fellow monastic mates was rarely
> missed.
>
> I would also go for alms round , even though it was rarely practised by
the
> Bhantes residing there(except for the Vassa period). I reflected that
there
> are people out there that lacks the chance to perform meritorious deeds.
the
> only was to reach them through alms round.
>
> I was also quite restrained in the senses because of the monastic
> environment.Once a person is in the robes , he/she is also the guardian of
> the Dhamma and the reputation of the Triratana is in their hands.
reflecting
> on these facts , being in the robes is a tougher training than climbing
> Mt.Himalaya.As a senior monk put it:one can conquer a whole mountain
easily,
> but how many can conquer the defilements of the mind?
>

 
2654 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > I must say, though, that I must not have expressed myself clearly 
> enough in my posts because as I see it there is absolutely no 
> contradiction between what I wrote and what Buddhagosa wrote in the 
> quote Robert so aptly cited.
> 
> The fear is obviously not the knowledge of fear, as I have written 
> over and over and over again and as Buddhagosa so very clearly wrote 
> and as Robert wrote and as you wrote. There is no disagreement here. 
> However, knowledge of fear (bhaya-nana) arises from wise attention 
to 
> a real fear; it arises very soon after a real fear; it is 
> conceptualized very rapidly after it is realized. 


Dear Dan,

I'm afraid that this is not according to my studies: the nana do not 
arise without a certain order in their arising; the bhaya nana does 
not arise before the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, in fact no other nana 
can since it is the first and weakest one.  Having no uncertainty of 
which is nama and which rupa, the next nana would follow upon 
accumulation of panna about things as they really are to another 
level of realization, the arising and falling away of things that 
appear through the six dvara, and upon much more accumulation of 
right understanding, the realization of the harm of taking things 
that arise and fall away for anything at all, much less the self, 
because of their impermanence.  This does not require any 'real' 
fear or dosa to arise to be studied and known, anything that is the 
object of the nana would reveal its harmfulness and reconfirm the 
universal characteristics of the tilakkhana, the theory of which has 
been already understood.

If you wish to try out the theories, right now things are arising 
and falling away, sight as you see right now changes all the time, 
sounds, the hearing, touches, at deeper moments of sati you could 
already see that all these realities have their specific 
characteristics the study of which automatically accumulates your 
knowledge of things as they really are, which, when a certain level 
is reached will spectacularly confirm the knowledge and eliminate a 
certain level of uncertainty.  As visible object appears now, where 
is the self?  Does this tiny, fleeting glimpse of anatta bring any 
degree of dosa, much less fear? Was it preceeded by any fear?  Fear 
never was a prerequisite for bhayanana to arise, but prior nana are.  


This is something 
> that can be experienced very clearly. How to put proper words on the 
> experience is not easy, and I would like to find some Tipitaka 
> support. Unfortunately, Buddhagosa's quote is utterly silent 
> on this point (putting aside the fact that Vissudhimagga is not in 
> Tipitaka). Mahasi's quote confirms it, but he is even more removed 
in 
> time from Tipitaka.


Personally I am a Buddhist and therefore interested mainly in what 
the Buddha taught, mainly in the Tipitaka, and the Commentaries, 
which are in Thai versions included in the Tipitaka, especially 
things that I can test for myself at the present moment, not wait 
for a special place or time.  I am especially impressed by the fact 
that he taught about realities that appear at all times, through the 
six senses, and their different characteristics.  Still most of the 
theories about where this study leads is very coherent and logical, 
not haphazard and inexplicable.  If you about the paccaya, for 
example, the citta must arise in a certain order, and the order that 
leads to the bhaya nana does not require fear to arise, but prior 
nana and the realization that things arise and fall away.  Without 
study of the present moment, not just thinking (akusala thoughts since 
there is fear) about anatta, there could not be even deeper sati 
arising, without that the realization of nama as nama, the first and 
weakest of nana, could not arise, and so on.

This is how I understand it, sorry if it is not what you expected to 
hear.  I would of course be interested to know if you could find any 
deviation from the Tipitaka in this analysis,

Amara

 
2655 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Sarah and Robert,

Sarah's hit the nail on the head:

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote: [responding off-list to an off-list message]

--- mike wrote:

> > I'd surely prefer concord with the
> > rest of you...

sounds like attachment to that concord...! 

Bingo.  Thanks for putting my side of this discussion
into proper perspective.  In fact, none of my
participation in this has really had anything to do
with ordination (itself just a big idea) at all.  I've
been going on and on for days, driven by nothing more
(or less) than craving for the acceptance and approval
of the group, which is, of course, a pure fantasy. 
Hah!  Wotta chump!  Well, back to the 'business at
hand'...

See you in the funny papers,

mike


 
2656 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:30pm
Subject: Re: ex-samanera's experience

 
  > May you all be well and happy.I'm new around here.I wish to share my 
> experience as a samanera in relation to the recent discussion.

Hi and welcome!

Thank you for sharing, and anumodana...

May I ask why you are an ex-samanera?  Was it because of the 
pressures you mentioned?

Amara

 
2657 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:43pm
Subject: Cause for anumodana

 
  Dear all,

Today an anonymous pledge has been made towards the printing of 
'Summary', may it be cause for kusala citta to arise and anumodana, 
and once Shin has started her list I hope she could report from time 
to time from now on, 

Amara

 
2658 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 2:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Dan,


---  wrote:
> Dear Robert, Mike et al.
> Didn't Buddha say that after he passed away, the
> sangha should (or was 
> it "could") abolish the minor rules? 

I do remember reading this, though I can't cite it. 
It's been a head-scratcher for a long time!

mike


 
2659 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 3:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: lay life v. monk's life

 
  Good point, Robert, thanks for this exception.

mike
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Not always Mike. Upali wanted to live as a forest
> monk but was
> asked not to by the Buddha so that he could be one
> who studied
> Vinaya properly. '
> Robert
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > AN V, 80
> > 
> > Dear Betty, 
> > 
> > Thanks for the 'up close and personal' report on
> the
> > Thai order.  It reminded me a little of the fourth
> > Anagata-bhayani (Future Dangers) Sutta: 
> "Furthermore,
> > in the course of the future there will be monks
> > desirous of fine lodgings. They, desirous of fine
> > lodgings, will neglect the practice of living in
> the
> > wilds; will neglect isolated forest and wilderness
> > dwellings; will move to towns, cities, and royal
> > capitals, taking up residence there. For the sake
> of
> > lodgings they will do many kinds of unseemly,
> > inappropriate things." 
> > 
> > Anguttara Nikaya V.80
> > 
> >
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-77.html
> > 
> > Though it doesn't mention cell phones or computers
> or
> > even money, it does remind me that the Buddha
> always
> > had monks stay in forests and secluded places.
> > 
> > All of your points are well-taken and a timely
> caution
> > for anyone considering this line of endeavour.
> > 
> > Thank you, Ma'am,
> > 
> > mike
> > 



 
2660 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 3:03am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] ex-samanera's experience

 
  Dear Peng Chuan (did I get that right?),

Pleased to meet you!  Thanks for this personal
recollection.  You would have been good company in the
monastery.

mike

--- kelvin liew peng chuan 
wrote:
> Hi!
> May you all be well and happy.I'm new around here.I
> wish to share my 
> experience as a samanera in relation to the recent
> discussion.
> 
> Although not a full fledge monk, the pressure is
> already present.As long as 
> the ordained ones are of the practising Buddhist
> lineage, one would be very 
> careful of ones conduct for the warning from the
> Theras of old keep 
> resounding in his/her conscience as an ordained.
> 
> I keep remembering the fact that the things that i
> use was offered by people 
> to accumulate kusala kamma. If i were to use them
> unmindfully, then i would 
> not be worthy of their offerings and would be like a
> thief using things that 
> was not intended for him. Unwholesome kamma would
> ripen.
> 
> Even though unperfect in nature, I try to do my best
> in the monastic 
> duties(eg.sweeping the temple) and meditation.If i
> were to laze around in 
> robes, then more unwholesome kamma would
> result.Every opportunity to share 
> and learn the Dhamma with lay person and fellow
> monastic mates was rarely 
> missed.
> 
> I would also go for alms round , even though it was
> rarely practised by the 
> Bhantes residing there(except for the Vassa period).
> I reflected that there 
> are people out there that lacks the chance to
> perform meritorious deeds. the 
> only was to reach them through alms round.
> 
> I was also quite restrained in the senses because of
> the monastic 
> environment.Once a person is in the robes , he/she
> is also the guardian of 
> the Dhamma and the reputation of the Triratana is in
> their hands. reflecting 
> on these facts , being in the robes is a tougher
> training than climbing 
> Mt.Himalaya.As a senior monk put it:one can conquer
> a whole mountain easily, 
> but how many can conquer the defilements of the
> mind?
> 
>
> 
> 



 
2661 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 6:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Sukin,

--- sukinderpal wrote:

Dear Mike,
An initial reaction of mine sometime ago was, "Go
ahead Mike,
become a monk. I think you will be a good one. The
sangha in
it's present state, needs someone with your kind of
dedication
to keep check, however little, it's force of decline."
I thought that Sarah's and others' opinion on this
matter would
only be healthy suggestions, keeping in your awareness
the various
pitfalls that you might otherwise overlook.
It is my opinion (which I hope is not a burden to me),

that
2500 yrs. is a very short time; in fact at some
moments it seems
just like yesterday, for the sangha as an institution,
and hence the
vinaya, and parts of the sutta addressed mainly to
monks, to
become obsolete. 

„h It seems that way to me, too.

I think firstly that the institution of monkhood
should be seen as being on a different plane. That we
laypeople
must be careful about using 'our' normal everyday
sense of
judgement to view 'their' normal everyday life. And
even to use
our understanding of dhamma to make any conclusion
about
them. It is true that monks and laypersons are
ultimately the same,
in that we are the 'five khandhas', and hence it being
valid that
we have the same point of reference from which to view
their
understanding. What I do however see as an important
point of
departure, is that the layperson decides to forgo of
the 'known
past' to embrace a new way of life, a world in which
all his
past ways of reacting to stimuli has to change.
Surely along the way, since past accumulations are so
tough, it
is possible that he might develop along the path even
more slow
than he himself might, had he remained a layperson. 

„h Entirely possible, I think.  Certainly life in a
strict monastery can condition the arising of a lot of
aversion (or desire, depending on one's bent).  These
'accumulations' become very evident (to everyone!) in
that setting.

But none is
'born' a monk, and the decision has to be made. That
decision
is made, when we are very young, perhaps by force of
circumstance, or when we are older, without any,
little or relatively
high understanding. But once we are in it, the world
changes.
We may bring in various degrees of the world along
with us, and
we might even complicate our world even more when we
are in it.
But this is all a matter of each persons kamma as it
is in the
layperson's world. But the rules ARE different,
because the world IS different. I think that this
discussion is important for me. I need to learn from
everyone's opinion, because I think I have so many
unquestioned
ditthi, in fact I have so little confidence in my own
view that I would
not have written had you not suggested to keep this
topic off-list.
My interest has been in part due to my own wish that I
become
a monk in my next life,(perhaps because the grass is
greener on
the other side of the fence), and also because I feel
the need for
the institution of monkhood to flourish in order that
laypersons
like myself, may come in contact and be inspired by
the Triple
Gem. I am certain that, had there not been good monks
out
there, I would not be here today.

„h Ditto!

Lately I've noticed how my thinking is so conditioned
by certain
habitual ways of reasoning. I tend to overlook certain
subjects
which are so obvious to others. Especially with this
group, where
thinking in terms of 'elements' is done with so much
ease, I am
still stuck with thinking in terms of 'events'
happening in 'time'.

„h So am I--


I'm sure it has been the case here too. 

„h Definitely, in my case!


That is why it is so important
to 'discuss'. And so I will now comment on some of
your points;

> Shouldn't that be the goal of us all? How could we
> have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire
to
> the life of an arahat?

As I stated above, the world is different for both.
The difference
here I think is that the monk has this goal more or
less constantly
in mind, whereas we have other things to 'think'
about.

„h Agreed--the point of the requisites is to eliminate
the need for 'contention for the things of the world'.

> Granted, observation without understanding will not
> result in understanding and its attendant
eradication
> of ignorance. But if the precepts are strictly
> observed, even without understanding, how can
akusala
> acts be said to have been committed?

As I commented to someone at our 'saturday discussion'
here,
that while observing a precept (without
understanding), we are
at that moment, 'thinking about observing' and hence
postponing
the observing of reality arising at that moment. 

„h Surely!

However it is my
opinion that there are many degrees of panna, 

„h I think that opinion's also been expressed recently
by both Robert and Jonathan, if I understood them
correctly.

we do not need
to have complete understanding of the vinaya to
observe them,
but only enough to realize that they were handed down
by
Sammasambuddha and hence perfect for its purpose. 

„h Agreed!

Secondly,
understanding that all these rules are for the
development of
perfect sila which would enhance a side by side
development
of panna, I think there is no reason to follow any
rule unwillingly.
Of course our accumulations exist and there are many
many more
moments when moha, dosa and lobha take rein, but panna
also
can. The little panna that says,"This is your life
now, if you do
this, that will be. If you do that, this will be."

> It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge
> amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting
people
> to adopt them. This is my central point.

Yes, since you say it (I haven't read anything
myself), I
think so too.

„h You know, having said that, I think I may have
overstated it.  Certainly he did often speak
approvingly of 'going forth', and most of his
discourses were addressed to those who he expected to
be keeping 226 precepts.  However, when he spoke, for
example, of the three characteristics of the khandas,
the elements, the five pairs, etc., etc., I don't
recall there being a significant difference between
the way he spoke to monks or householders (someone
better-read might be able to correct me on this).  I
think this point is pertinent to this topic and
particularly to this group, whose emphasis is clearly
(and correctly, I believe) on these points.

> So we have nothing
> left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of
> suttas, after only half the sasana. Maybe that
really
> is true, and maybe I'll come around to it
> eventually.

My personal opinion is; read the abhidhamma for the
fact
about ultimate reality, and read the sutta for case
examples
about it's manifestations in the conventional world,
in order
that we might have a 'better' understanding of the
ultimate
realities.

„h This was a rather stupid comment of mine--may I
take it back?  And I do agree with you, though there
are lots of good reasons to read the suttas (and the
vinaya).

> Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful
> than the householders' life (he often joked about
> this).

Yes I think so too, but for me it may be the case of
the grass
being greener.

„h Well, I've been there, in a limited way, and I
actually found it a lot browner.  It was not an easy
life, by any standard.

> Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different
> answers to that question for monks and householders
> (except in the case of individual instructions to
> extraordinary householders).

„h I'm not sure now what I was referring to here, but
I don't think this was true at all of paramattha
dhammas.  If I said or suggested as much, my
apologies.

I don't know, but I would assume that he did. But I am
curious now, about these cases where the teaching was
specifically for monks and the so called
'extraordinary
householders', can you please give examples?

„h This is a tough one--I could more easily come up
with examples of discourse directed at ordinary
householders.  Maybe someone else in the group can
suggest one?  

> True! As you know, that's the hardest (material)
> thing for me to relinquish, at present...

It seems to me that you are at this point, not willing
to give up
your present world. The computer is just a source of
the
teachings and discussion. Do you wish that you could
become
a monk and at the same time be able to surf the net?

„h Well, you may have something, there--however,
almost the only thing I use my computer for is
communicating with this group, and it's precisely for
that reason that I'm reluctant to give it up. 
Web-surfing (except sutta-surfing!) I could give up in
a heartbeat!

> I'm not, at all. Robes are just a practical solution
> to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable
> minimum. I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them
> to be anything else (aside for some peripheral
> symbolic uses).

I do not think Acharn Sujin meant it this way either.
I think
that she meant by the 'yellow cloth' to mean the whole
idea
of becoming a monk.

> Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal
to
> not committing kamma-pathas.

Easier to follow with some necessary understanding.

„h Certainly easier, and incomparably better.

> I truly think you're too kind. I don't see myself
> being able to guide others for years, if ever. As
for
> the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation
> comes just from having read the suttas--the
> instructions are quite unambiguous. Maybe they're
> also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good
> intentions regarding the rest are probably out the
> window too...

Like it has been pointed out before, the dhamma is so
deep
that any interpretation is bound to fall short of
intended
meaning. We can't question the Buddha's teachings, but
we can
express our understanding and test it.

> Are you sure? The group is so utterly
lay-oriented--I
> can't help thinking it might be better to continue
> off-list, for those who are interested.

I am lay Mike, only because I can't become a monk.

„h No offense intended, Sukin!  Just a little more of
my own stupidity.

> Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing
me
> to continually re-examine my thinking on this...

Same here from you.
Hope I didn't bore anyone with this long post.

„h I found your post thoughtful and
thought-provoking--but then, I seem to have but one
string to my bow, lately¡K

mike



 
 
2664 From:  
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 6:20am
Subject: 

 
  [please excuse the multiple (and lengthy) post and the weird 
formatting.  Looked fine, before I sent it...!

 
2665 From:  
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 8:13am
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Robert,

Shin Nen Omedeto gozaimasu. Happy New Year! How was the New Year 
Celebration In Japan this year?

> Good point! I should have been more explicit. You know the sutta
> (soory no reference) where the Buddha was telling the 180 monks
> that even if they accept the daily food in accordance with the
> Vinaya BUT they eat it greedily without proper reflectance, that
> this can result in them being reborn in hell. 60 of those monks
> immediately disrobed; the Buddha didn't try to stop them.
> Another 60 spewed blood through shock and were mortally ill. the
> other 60 became arahants. 
> everyone reacts differently when they hear Dhamma. khun sujin
> puts the Dhamma beautifully and clearly, when some realise it
> more they learn that their reason for being a monk is not right
> and they see that a laylife is better for them at this time. Of
> course, as you indicate, others listen and become strenghtened
> and live the monks life with renewed purity and diligence. 
> 
> We are all so different in our accumulations. I think the main
> benefit of these discussions is to learn how profound the life
> of a monk is and that we can't just become a monk and expect to
> progress faster in Dhamma. Much more complex than most realise.
> For those who do understand this, do have the accumualtions for
> a monks life then it is of great benefit. It goes perfectly in
> hand with the development of satipatthana. It is wide open and
> free for the growth of merit.
> 
> You also perhaps know the sutta where one of the 80 leading
> arahant disciples of the buddha was living far away. he had a
> laydisciple who was very wise. the layman kept asking to ordain
> but the great monk said "it is better to stay layman, life as
> amonk is hard" This happened several times. Each time the layman
> would lose his urge to ordain for a while. But it kept coming
> back. Eventually he persuaded the monk to ordain him.. 
> Do you have a reference for this sutta anyone? i think the
> laymans monk name was punna.
> 
> I too am just putting my very imperfect and ignorant views on
> this issue. It is very deep and way beyond my capacity to really
> understand.
> Robert
_____________________________
An interesting sutta but I haven't come across it yet.

Few days ago, there is a paragraph in an mandarin article written by 
a taiwanese reverend that I read which sounds:
"Try to encourage buddhist to enter the sangha order. But when they 
want to take robes, discourage them and tell them that it is not easy 
to become a monk. In return, only those who are good will remain and 
enter the sangha order."

I think this goes along with those good teachers say:"Layhood is 
easier." But there is one thing, they never think of disrobe! Guess 
why.

We might not have enough past accumulations for us to become a monk 
today but certainly we can accumulate them now at the present. Make 
an aspiration! I believe we can achieve it if we dare to strive for 
it!

By the way, the story that I mentioned days ago about a monk 
practised for one day and died and reborned in deva realms, it is 
from Mahayana sutta which titled "The Merits of Become A Monk". I 
don't think any of us can find it in the Pali tipitaka.


Lee

 
2666 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 9:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs

 
  Bruce,

Great to hear from you, and shinnen omedetoo
gozaimas'!

Hope you can find time to keep in touch...

mike



 
2667 From: kelvin liew peng chuan   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:11am
Subject: Why am I an X-samanera

 
  Q)May I ask why you are an ex-samanera?  Was it because of the
pressures you mentioned?

A)It wasn't about the pressure. For your information, I'm an ethnic Chinese 
in Malaysia.The Buddha Sasana here still is still not that strong although 
there has been some awareness on the true characteristics of the sasana 
among the lay people here.

  When I seeked my parents permission to become a samanera, i was allowed 
only one week, and that was gained only after much persuation and 
explanation on the merits and benefits of it.It was also my wish to transfer 
merits of ordination to my newly departed grandmother.

My mother was sad the day before I went to the temple and worried that I may 
leave lay life to enter the order of Sangha for the rest of my life.She 
cried the whole night and during the ordination ceremony.I'm sure the 
innitial reaction of other Buddhist parents in prevalent Theravada countries 
would be the exact opposite.

During the one week training at the local temple(Mahasi tradition),my 
parents came everyday to visit and this have some pros and cons too.The 
positive part is, my parents learnt to give alms to the great fields of 
merit.I even spared the time to share some Dhamma with them.

The negative part was somehow less severe but nevertheless the frequent 
visits disrupted the schedule of my monastic practice timetable.I let this 
happen as the Lord often teach us that we must honour our parents as they 
are worthy to the extent of being the Bhrahma gods at home.If it was not for 
their consent, I would not have the extra Dhamma experience that i now have.

Another reason why I'm back to lay life is the Buddha clearly mentioned that 
a child must have the parents permission to enter the Sangha ( hope you can 
recall the Rahula episode)So, as my parents allowed one week for the first 
ordination and two weeks when i requested another, I must truely appreciate 
their consent.i can't just join without proper approval as it will mean 
hurting my parents deeply and may as i see it,accrue more akusala than 
kusala.




 
2668 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why am I an X-samanera

 
  Dear Peng Chuan (am I getting this right?)

--- kelvin liew peng chuan 
wrote:

> Q)May I ask why you are an ex-samanera?  Was it
> because of the
> pressures you mentioned?
> 
> A)It wasn't about the pressure. For your
> information, I'm an ethnic Chinese 
> in Malaysia.The Buddha Sasana here still is still
> not that strong although 
> there has been some awareness on the true
> characteristics of the sasana 
> among the lay people here.

I've been to Malaysia, though briefly, and have some
idea of what you're talking about.
 
>   When I seeked my parents permission to become a
> samanera, i was allowed 
> only one week, and that was gained only after much
> persuation and 
> explanation on the merits and benefits of it.It was
> also my wish to transfer 
> merits of ordination to my newly departed
> grandmother.
> 
> My mother was sad the day before I went to the
> temple and worried that I may 
> leave lay life to enter the order of Sangha for the
> rest of my life. She 
> cried the whole night and during the ordination
> ceremony. I'm sure the 
> innitial reaction of other Buddhist parents in
> prevalent Theravada countries 
> would be the exact opposite.

This sort of thing has happened since the beginning. 
I've been trying, and failed, to find on-line a sutta
I remember as having to do with someone named Sudinna
, or something like that, in which a 'young man of
good family' nearly had to starve himself to death
before his parents would let him ordain.  Actually, I
think I remember, isn't this in the Vinaya?  I'll let
you know if I can find it.
 
> During the one week training at the local
> temple (Mahasi tradition), my 
> parents came everyday to visit and this have some
> pros and cons too.The 
> positive part is, my parents learnt to give alms to
> the great fields of 
> merit.I even spared the time to share some Dhamma
> with them.
> 
> The negative part was somehow less severe but
> nevertheless the frequent 
> visits disrupted the schedule of my monastic
> practice timetable.I let this 
> happen as the Lord often teach us that we must
> honour our parents as they 
> are worthy to the extent of being the Bhrahma gods
> at home.If it was not for 
> their consent, I would not have the extra Dhamma
> experience that i now have.
> 
> Another reason why I'm back to lay life is the
> Buddha clearly mentioned that 
> a child must have the parents permission to enter
> the Sangha ( hope you can 
> recall the Rahula episode)So, as my parents allowed
> one week for the first 
> ordination and two weeks when i requested another, I
> must truely appreciate 
> their consent.i can't just join without proper
> approval as it will mean 
> hurting my parents deeply and may as i see it,accrue
> more akusala than 
> kusala.

I wish I had as good an excuse!  In a nutshell, I left
to be with my friends (though it's a little more
complicated than that)--a weakness which still binds
me to this lovely group.

mike


 
2669 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:13am
Subject: Re: Why am I an X-samanera

 
  > My mother was sad the day before I went to the temple and worried 
that I may 
> leave lay life to enter the order of Sangha for the rest of my 
life.She 
> cried the whole night and during the ordination ceremony.I'm sure 
the 
> innitial reaction of other Buddhist parents in prevalent Theravada 
countries 
> would be the exact opposite.


Dear Kelvin,

Not in my sister's case!  My nephew once became ordained for a few 
weeks in the a very strict order and as the monk who headed the 
ceremonies spoke of the delight of parents whose sons were ordained, 
she was weeping continuously but it was because she knew the physical 
hardships her only son would have to endure, although he thoroughly 
enjoyed the experience he did come back with bleeding feet because 
they had to walk for miles for alms, barefoot in the countryside, 
sometimes on gravel roads.  The people were very appreciative of the 
tiny wat where he stayed- three monks and a samanera were there if I 
remember correctly, but the abbot is well revered and my nephew gained 
weight, even with all the hard work as a monk, he tried to have a 
little of the different kinds of offerings they bring. He frantically 
worked it off back in Bangkok afterwards.


> During the one week training at the local temple(Mahasi 
tradition),my 
> parents came everyday to visit and this have some pros and cons 
too.The 
> positive part is, my parents learnt to give alms to the great fields 
of 
> merit.I even spared the time to share some Dhamma with them.


I suppose you know that that is one of the highest merit you could 
have done: the dhamma being the greatest gift possible and your 
parents being as you say like brahma, or even the arahanta to their 
children. 


> The negative part was somehow less severe but nevertheless the 
frequent 
> visits disrupted the schedule of my monastic practice timetable.I 
let this 
> happen as the Lord often teach us that we must honour our parents as 
they 
> are worthy to the extent of being the Bhrahma gods at home.If it was 
not for 
> their consent, I would not have the extra Dhamma experience that i 
now have.
> 
> Another reason why I'm back to lay life is the Buddha clearly 
mentioned that 
> a child must have the parents permission to enter the Sangha ( hope 
you can 
> recall the Rahula episode)So, as my parents allowed one week for the 
first 
> ordination and two weeks when i requested another, I must truely 
appreciate 
> their consent.i can't just join without proper approval as it will 
mean 
> hurting my parents deeply and may as i see it,accrue more akusala 
than 
> kusala.


Anumodana in your great kusala.  But even without being ordained I 
think it is possible to talk to your parents or anyone else 
interested about the dhamma, which is about the truth or reality, 
and gradually show them the good of knowing about it, even as a 
layperson.  The five precepts could only bring good results in daily 
life, for example the finer points of such a thing as not to lie: it 
also includes not to say harsh words or not to talk frivolously, or 
lie even for fun.  Perhaps if you set a good example as a good 
layperson, even if only the sotapanna could keep the five precepts 
without the slightest blemish at all times, naturally in their daily 
lives, it would already be good for the people around you not to 
mention to your own self.

Thank you for telling us more about yourself, and anumodana in your 
great kusala in studying the dhamma,

Amaara

 
2670 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:28am
Subject: Re: "...first name basis"

 
  > You know, I'm not sure how everyone else got their name to show up 
in 
> the  "Author" column while my e-mail address is there instead. I 
must 
> have incorrectly filled out the sign-up form for the forum. 


Dear Dan and all those with the same problem, 

If you would like to change anything please go to 
<http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup> and click on 'my 
profile' (in the yellow band towards the top, to the right of the 
band,) that will take you to the page where you could change anything 
you want.  You will also notice that you could post messages and read 
them from the site as well, and access the archives very easily from 
the 'main page'.  

Enjoy,

Amara

 
2671 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Kom,

I am, as always, nearly overwhelmed by your post (not
that I imagine that you care!):

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> Without the panna, you do not "develop" the
> stronger tendency to
> give dana.  

In other words, it's the paññaa that makes it a
condition for future kamma?

> The (maybe inaccurate) example would,
> one is likely to give
> dana if one knows explicitly why giving dana is good
> and beneficial. 
> The stronger panna will develop the tendency more
> strongly.  Take the
> following reasons why to give dana and guess which
> ones are stronger:
> giving dana is good, giving dana to those who can't
> fend for themself
> is good, giving dana will give me many good returns,
> and giving dana
> lets go of the akusala and is a condition for the
> reaching of Nibhanna.

I will guess:  If you mean stronger as a present
motivation for most of us, then (c) giving dana will
give me many good returns;  if you mean stronger as a
greater kusaladhamma, then (d) giving dana lets go of
the akusala and is a condition for the reaching of
Nibhanna

> Samatha bhavana is "developed" as the cittas during
> such time always
> arise with BOTH sati and panna.  However, since
> panna doesn't cognize
> the poramattha dhamma 

It doesn't?!

> (Samatha has pannati as
> aramana), 

Always?! [by the way, if this is a categorical
statement, I think it refutes many 'outside' arguments
to 'our' perspective--that is, samatha vs. vipassana
bhavana]

> it is not
> satipatthana, and the development toward Nibhanna is
> not occuring at
> such time, but the development to temporary freedom
> from kilesa IS
> being developed.

Is this the same thing as saying that kilesa can be
supressed but not eradicated by samatha?
 
> Satipatthana is "developed" always, as it also
> arises with panna.  It
> has the poramatha as aramana.  It is the only path
> toward Nibhanna.
> 
> Note that for those bent on Samatha bhavana
> development (including
> Anuruddha dera), if they listened and understood
> Buddha, they most
> likely develop BOTH Samatha bhavana and
> Satipatthana.   

Jonothan mentioned recently that the two CAN support
each other--I was glad to hear this, as I've always
understood them BOTH as the 'samadhi' section of the
eightfold path.

> Although
> Samatha bhavana is NOT satipatthana, it can be a
> condition for
> Satipatthana to arise (in many different ways).
> 
> > In other words, if (after sati arises) upadana
> arises,
> > sati doesn't arise...?

> Upadana is associated with akusala (lobha).  There
> can be no sati or
> panna arising with akusala cittas.  Sati always
> arises with kusala
> cittas (and other sobhana cittas).  

Kom, your posts are a living (?) example of why it's a
DAMNED (pardon my French) good idea to study
abhidhamma.

mike


 
2672 From: Shaiu-in Lin   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 245

 
  Dear Leonardo,
    Anumodana to your kusula citta and kamma. At this moment, everything is
not completely settle yet. We will have a meeting this Saturday and will
finalize everything. From there, K.Amara will inform all us in the website.
Thankyou.
with metta,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonardo Neves" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 245


> Dear Shin Lin,
>
>     I would love the opportunity to collaborate. Let me know how. As I
live in Brazil
> I don't know how.
>
> Thank you very much to the chance of making dana.
>
> Metta,
> Leonardo
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shaiu-in Lin" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 12:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 245
>
>
> > Dear Dhamma Friends,
> >     My email is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026077053012134048234051209113079 or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020237194237036158085064231090136058066192197079172142172194143142083 If any
one
> > would like to contribute anything for the printing of the book, pls feel
> > free to contact me.
> > with regards,
> > Shin Lin
> >
> >
> >
>

 
2673 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:57am
Subject: Re: monks/laylife, again

 
  Dear Kelvin,
Anumodhana and welcome to the group. It was wonderful to read your
description of the "pressures" you faced as a samanera. Where did this
experience take place and why did you finally disrobe?

To me, your description of all the aspects of the monk's life that you were
led to contemplate were very much what the Buddha may have intended in his
teachings. Your description of the elder monks there, and their admonitions
to you, sounded very wise to me. For it is contemplation such as you
described that would begin to build the conditions that would later lead to
sati and panna arising.

I don't know how much of the Abhidhamma you have studied, or how much you
understand of satipatthana, but rather than calling what you were admonished
as pressures, they were "invitations", so to speak, to contemplate and allow
sati and panna to arise. You were so very fortunate to have had that
experience.

But, as was shown in several letters by other members, different persons
react differently when lessons in dhamma are presented to them, depending on
their accumulations throughout the myriad of lifetimes experienced. However,
that you found our group, and that you are indeed still "searching for
answers", as implied by your writing to the group, means that perhaps you
can still have the experience again, with better understanding the second
time around.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
2674 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 0:03pm
Subject: Re: monks/laymen again

 
  Dear Mike,
Anumodhana and many thanks for your reference from the Anguttara Nikaya.
Just shows that the Buddha foresaw the future very accurately. But please
read the wonderful account by Kelvin of his experiences as a samanera: one
would have to search far and wide to find monks like the ones he met.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
2675 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 0:02pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 245

 
  At this moment, 
everything is
> not completely settle yet. We will have a meeting this Saturday and 
will
> finalize everything. From there, K.Amara will inform all us in the 
website.
> Thankyou.
> with metta,
> Shin


Dear Shin,

Have you had the chance to set things up with Nong Lan?  

I hope you realize there will be two different groups participating, 
one here in this list, where the orders go to Sukin and Jonothan's 
friend, and the donations to you.

The meeting is for the people who use our website without joining 
this discussion group, and the announcements will go on the website 
and not here, as the conditions will be slightly different, a little 
more formal and conventional, perhaps.

If you have the accounts already you could tell everyone how to 
contribute right now in this list,

Anumodana in your kusala cetana,

Amara

 
2676 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Lee,

Nice to hear from you again!!!  I know you were
responding to Robert, but:

---  wrote:

> Just to be pondered:
> 
> 1. Are arahants referred as wise people? 
> 2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the
> sangha order as 
> they have all done?

If memory serves (corrections, please), an arahat
can't break (because of no motivation to do so) any of
the 226 precepts.  So, besides already being perfect
bhikkus, why not ordain?
 
> 3. What makes the monkhood so special that they, the
> arahants, have 
> no second thought of it?

Not sure I understand your question, here...

> 4. We are encourage to follow the wise, are we?

...or here?

> Taking robes ia actually a practise of letting go,
> letting go of our 
> desires towards the worldlings. 

I guess to me, it is a practice of relinquishing
(letting go) THE SATISFACTION OF our desires for the
things of the world, (not to mention our desires for
'attractive worldlings!!!')--all concepts).

> Although it is not
> necessarily true 
> nowadays. But, shouldn't we stick to the ordinary
> one? If thinking 
> that observing 226 precepts is stressful, it seems
> to me that taking 
> robes is just an extra idea of getting rid of lobha
> etc. 

Yes, you may well be right, sir.

> And what kind of thoughts that gave rise to the 
> thought that "it is stressful". Is is the thought 
> that "I don't want to be tied up by the rules"? 
> 
> By the way, taking robes is not just the matter of
> self realization 
> but also to enhance the Buddhasasana.

Saadhu!
 
> Afterall, these are only my own personal viewpoints.
> Please forgive 
> me if the words sound rude. Please correct me if I
> am wrong.
> 
> Lee

I know you weren't asking me, but I found your
viewpoints AND your words lovely.  Saadhu, Lee...

mike


 
2677 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: monks/laymen again

 
  Dear Betty,

--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
 wrote:

> Dear Mike,

> Anumodhana and many thanks for your reference from
> the Anguttara Nikaya.
> Just shows that the Buddha foresaw the future very
> accurately. But please
> read the wonderful account by Kelvin of his
> experiences as a samanera: one
> would have to search far and wide to find monks like
> the ones he met. [Or samaneras like he was! mn]

Oh, I have!  And it reminded me of having been
(almost) there myself, with all that situation's
attendant and, I think, inherent kusala and akusala.

Mudita to you and your son, Ma'am,

mike

p.s. [pretty good predicting for TWENTY-FIVE CENTURIES
ahead, don't you think?!]


 
2678 From:  
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 0:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Ah yes robert , It was my mistake.
[ the off-time from office hours is always somewhat messy.. :o)..the lobha for
the thought of going home ]


The other story you mentioned is about the two brothers , maha pantaka and culla
pantaka.
The younger one had such accumulations that he won arahantship while looking at
a piece of cloth which went from clean to dirty ...


Thanks

 
 
2679 From:  
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 0:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why am I an X-samanera

 
  Dear kelvin,

Our feelings are mutual here, and I understand you.
The only reason why I couldnt go from 8 to 227 (yet) is my parents( the
attachment to 'my parents').

In dhammapada buddha has categorically said that the bond of the 'loved ones '
is the hardest of bonds to break.




Thanks

 
2680 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 3:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Mike,

I think your being nearly "overwhelmed" is probably because you are
getting bits and pieces at a time instead of some bigger (and better,
clearer) chunks.  BTW, Khun Amara's Summary to Poramattha dhamma has 2
chapters dealing specifically with Samatha Bhavana and Vipassana.
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> In other words, it's the paññaa that makes it a
> condition for future kamma?
Yes, it could certainly condition kusala dhamma (including Kusala
kamma) to arise.  Knowing that listening to Dhamma, understanding
dhamma are conditions for Satipathana to arise, wouldn't you say that
this would condition one to listen to Dhamma?

> I will guess:  If you mean stronger as a present
> motivation for most of us, then (c) giving dana will
> give me many good returns;  if you mean stronger as a
> greater kusaladhamma, then (d) giving dana lets go of
> the akusala and is a condition for the reaching of
> Nibhanna
Yes, there is a Sutta that addresses this question, although I don't
have a reference.  c) is less than d) because c) is miccha-patipaddha
(on the birth side: pattichasamupadha) and d) is samma-patipaddha (on
the reverse side).

> 
> > Samatha bhavana is "developed" as the cittas during
> > such time always
> > arise with BOTH sati and panna.  However, since
> > panna doesn't cognize
> > the poramattha dhamma 
> 
> It doesn't?!
For all the samatha aramana that I can remember, the condition for
reaching the jhana is that you be able to think (vittaka) of your
samatha object constantly.  For example, if the red color is your
aramana,  you probably stare at it until the concept of redness becomes
very steadfast in your mind.  You can actually hold this concept of
redness in your mind even after you close your eyes.  Now, in
poramattha term, when you close your eyes, you mostly just don't see. 
Thinking about something is definitely not experiencing the poramattha
characteristic of that thing.

> 
> > (Samatha has pannati as
> > aramana), 
> 
> Always?! [by the way, if this is a categorical
> statement, I think it refutes many 'outside' arguments
> to 'our' perspective--that is, samatha vs. vipassana
> bhavana]
I am almost sure that this is.  Even the samatha development using
anapanasati (breath) as aramana, the samatha object is still a concept.
 There is definitely poramatha characteristics of breath, but they are
not the samatha aramana.   In fact, the breath eventually becomes so
fine (that you cannot experience its poramatha chracteristics), but yet
the person will still need an aramana to continue with the samatha
development.   The fact that poramatha characteristics are not
appearing certainly wouldn't be a hindrance!!!

> > it is not
> > satipatthana, and the development toward Nibhanna is
> > not occuring at
> > such time, but the development to temporary freedom
> > from kilesa IS
> > being developed.
> 
> Is this the same thing as saying that kilesa can be
> supressed but not eradicated by samatha?
Yes.  On the other hand, any time the citta arising is kusala, kilesa
is being "suppressed", just not in such extended period as when Jhana
cittas are arising.

> Jonothan mentioned recently that the two CAN support
> each other--I was glad to hear this, as I've always
> understood them BOTH as the 'samadhi' section of the
> eightfold path.
When we talk about the eightfold path, I think we would be talking
STRICTLY about the cetasikas arising with the citta cognizing poramatha
aramana (Satipatthana).   When Samatha Bhavana citta is arising, it is
NOT the 8-fold path, but it can condition the 8-fold path.

> Kom, your posts are a living (?) example of why it's a
> DAMNED (pardon my French) good idea to study
> abhidhamma.
Yes.  In fact, I think this is true for anything, even with things not
strictly related to Vipassana/Satipatthana/Samatha Bhavana.  For
example, how does one develop kusala when one does not understand the
differences between kusala and akusala?   How does one build a good
bridge if one doesn't know the differences between a good bridge and a
bad bridge?  Satipatthana and the 8-fold path is harder to understand
than that: it takes a Buddha to understand it without teachings.  

kom


 
2681 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 3:18pm
Subject: Re: Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  > BTW, Khun Amara's Summary to Poramattha dhamma has 2
> chapters dealing specifically with Samatha Bhavana and Vipassana.


Dear K. Kom, 

Just to say that would be a great honor if I could say that the 
'Summary' is mine, in fact Tan Ajaan wrote the great book a long 
time ago and Varee and I only translated it, with the help of K. 
Jeed and K. Ruk.

I really enjoy your posts, by the way, anumodana,

Amara

 
2682 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 3:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Hi Mike,
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > 2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the
> > sangha order as 
> > they have all done?
> 
> If memory serves (corrections, please), an arahat
> can't break (because of no motivation to do so) any of
> the 226 precepts.  So, besides already being perfect
> bhikkus, why not ordain?
The story I hear is that a person achieving an arahatship will not
survive more than 7 days without being ordained.  I have never heard
(but have not asked enough) of anybody giving an explanation (that I
can understand) of why this is.  My (wild) guess is that the person has
absolutely no reason to fend for himself (to live), and being a
layperson, in order to live, you have to fend for yourself (cloth,
food, roof over head, medicine, etc).  Being a monk is the way to
sustain the 5-khandas acceptably, and by basically being the
immeasurable field of merits: an arahat only lives for others.

The answer in Mirinda panha is something like: a layperson life cannot
sustain an arahat as being arahat is "heavy".  Only a life of an
umblemished Sangha (a "heavy" profession) can sustain such a heavy
person.

kom


 
2683 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 3:33pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > The story I hear is that a person achieving an arahatship will not
> survive more than 7 days without being ordained.  I have never heard
> (but have not asked enough) of anybody giving an explanation (that I
> can understand) of why this is.  My (wild) guess is that the person 
has
> absolutely no reason to fend for himself (to live), and being a
> layperson, in order to live, you have to fend for yourself (cloth,
> food, roof over head, medicine, etc).  Being a monk is the way to
> sustain the 5-khandas acceptably, and by basically being the
> immeasurable field of merits: an arahat only lives for others.
> 
> The answer in Mirinda panha is something like: a layperson life 
cannot
> sustain an arahat as being arahat is "heavy".  Only a life of an
> umblemished Sangha (a "heavy" profession) can sustain such a heavy
> person.


Dear K. Kom,

That is the general belief, the seven day period, but from what Tan 
Ajaan and our experts say, this passage has never been located in 
the Tipitaka (and/or Commentaries).  Actually it is interesting that 
a person could probably not survive longer without water, still in 
those days most people really rejoiced to have bhikkhu to teach them 
and be as you say, 'immeasurable field of merits'.

Amara

 
2684 From: bruce   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 7:45pm
Subject: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  hi all

i've been meaning to open up this topic, as many of you may remember....now
that tobacco withdrawal symptoms have pretty much abated (10 days and
counting...phew!!...thanks for all the kind words of support...) i feel
like i can put a short, relatively coherent email together (and send it to
the right forum!)...

note: i put the subject <"vs"> in quotes because i don't think the two are
necessarily in opposition...i gather from recent discussions that members
may agree...

for starter questions:

-- for those of you who do: what are the benefits of daily sitting practice?

-- for those of you who don't: what are your reasons for not sitting?

-- as for sitting practice: can we simply call what everybody out there in
the world is doing when they sit simply:  samatha?  does anybody actually
sit and "do" vipassana??  from what i've read and heard, one can sit and
"do" samatha, by giving the mind a single aramana and continually bringing
it back to that aramana when it wanders... since the aramana of vipassana
is only limited in that it must be a paramattha dhamma appearing at one of
the six dvaras, i wonder: can one also sit and "do" vipassana? or does
vipassana arise in some way independent of sitting down and "trying to do it"?

-- i've heard it mentioned several times on the list that samatha can be
condition for satipathana to arise....can anyone explain why and how?

==========================

i'm also quite curious about some excerpts from some recent mails
re: vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas:

kom wrote:

> For all the samatha aramana that I can remember, the condition for
> reaching the jhana is that you be able to think (vittaka) of your
> samatha object constantly.  For example, if the red color is your
> aramana,  you probably stare at it until the concept of redness becomes
> very steadfast in your mind.  You can actually hold this concept of
> redness in your mind even after you close your eyes.  Now, in
> poramattha term, when you close your eyes, you mostly just don't see. 
> Thinking about something is definitely not experiencing the poramattha
> characteristic of that thing.
-----------------------
i know vitakka and vicara are usually translated as "applied thought" and
"sustained thought", but i never understood these as meaning
conceptualizing or ruminating *about* the object, which i equate with
papanca; i thought that these terms referred to the, for lack of better
terms, "movement" of the mind toward and then "continued contact" of the
mind with the aramana...

i'd be curious to know the pali etymologies of vitakka and vicara : does
anybody on this list also happen to know the derivation of these two words?

kom/mike/kom wrote:

> > > (Samatha has pannati as
> > > aramana), 
> > 
> > Always?! [by the way, if this is a categorical
> > statement, I think it refutes many 'outside' arguments
> > to 'our' perspective--that is, samatha vs. vipassana
> > bhavana]
> I am almost sure that this is.  Even the samatha development using
> anapanasati (breath) as aramana, the samatha object is still a concept.
>  There is definitely poramatha characteristics of breath, but they are
> not the samatha aramana.   In fact, the breath eventually becomes so
> fine (that you cannot experience its poramatha chracteristics), but yet
> the person will still need an aramana to continue with the samatha
> development.   The fact that poramatha characteristics are not
> appearing certainly wouldn't be a hindrance!!!
-----------------------
does everyone agree that samatha can only have pannati as aramana? i need
to review the list of objects for samatha meditation subjects in VSM, but i
had thought many were chosen because they provided the meditator with one
or more paramattha dhammas on which to focus...colors, touch of breath,
revulsion-cetasika of corpses, the brahma vihara cetasikas; but then again
there are ones which seem much more like pannati: recollection of the
qualities of the Buddha would surely be conceputalization, yes? and the
nimitta of any kasina seems as though it must certainly be pannati, but
there is no nimitta for anapana, is there?

also: if vitakka and vicara indeed are "thinking about" the object, and
are, as is said, the first jhana-factors to be abandoned as one progresses
into finer material states, then once those jhana factors are abandoned, it
would be impossible to "think about" the aramana, and samatha bhavana would
occur without this thinking-about, yes? what would the object of samatha
then be? is the object always the chosen meditation object? if one moves
the mind to contemplate the jhana factors themselves, wouldn't that
constitute vipassana??

i've rather gotten away from my original sitting/non-sitting idea, and the
questions seem to be branching out of their own accord...sorry for the
papanca!! feel free to break these questions up into separate responses if
necessary -- i probably should be editing this into 2 mails....so much for
short and coherent!  looking forward to responses from all....

yours in the incomparable Dhamma
mettacittena
bruce

 
2685 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 8:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Bruce,
great to hear from, nice that you are out from the smoke clouds
now. I am a little busy recently so just a few little points
before others (sarah, jon?) go into details.

--- bruce  wrote:
> the world is doing when they sit simply:  samatha?  

samattha Bhavana is the development of kusala to a very high
degree. It takes  more than simply sitting to develop it
correctly. Some types of samattha do not need to the sitting
posture. Others, (eg anapanasati) do.


does
> anybody actually
> sit and "do" vipassana??  from what i've read and heard, one
> can sit and
> "do" samatha, by giving the mind a single aramana and
> continually bringing
> it back to that aramana when it wanders... since the aramana
> of vipassana
> is only limited in that it must be a paramattha dhamma
> appearing at one of
> the six dvaras, i wonder: can one also sit and "do" vipassana?
> or does
> vipassana arise in some way independent of sitting down and
> "trying to do it"?
______
Great question - kom, amara and others will answer.


> 
> -- i've heard it mentioned several times on the list that
> samatha can be
> condition for satipathana to arise....can anyone explain why
> and how?
> 
> ==========================
yes, this is right but takes quite a bit of explanation. Kom?
Briefly for those with high accumulations they can master jhana
and use that as a basis for vipassana. the process is still
essentially the same - there must be understanding of nama and
rupa. Also all kusala assists to some degree. So even giving can
be a supporting condition (to some degree), likewise samattha. 
Confusions start when people think samattha is a main condition-
then they don't realise the importance of panna.

> 
:
> 

> -----------------------
> does everyone agree that samatha can only have pannati as
> aramana? 
____________
The arammana are mostly pannati but not all. Even the color
discs are used as pannati, as Kom explained. I went into some
detil a while back about anapanasati and how it is usually a
concept but it can be known (possibly) in some ways as
paramattha by those with extraordinary accumulations (but not
when developed to a high degree as an object of samattha). The 4
elements are not pannati but they can be used as objects for
samattha. They are seen as simply earth element or hardness but
there is still not the understanding of anattaness that goes
with vipassana. 
Robert




 
2686 From: bruce   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  hi robert

you wrote:

> > does everyone agree that samatha can only have pannati as
> > aramana? 
> ____________
> The arammana are mostly pannati but not all. Even the color
> discs are used as pannati, as Kom explained. I went into some
> detil a while back about anapanasati and how it is usually a
> concept but it can be known (possibly) in some ways as
> paramattha by those with extraordinary accumulations (but not
> when developed to a high degree as an object of samattha). The 4
> elements are not pannati but they can be used as objects for
> samattha. They are seen as simply earth element or hardness but
> there is still not the understanding of anattaness that goes
> with vipassana. 

thanks, i'd like to try to find the thread in the archives...assuming you
haven't saved every one of your outgoing messages: does anyone remember the
title of this thread?  even something close, and i'll try variations with
egroups not-so-trusty search engine...

i really should go back and read the year's worth or posts...ahh for more
hours in the day...

bruce

 
2687 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  dear bruce,
here is the post I meant. Actually I am not at all knowledgeable
on this area. In thai they have whole series of talks discussing
it in fine detail. This is just what I glean.:

[DhammaStudyGroup]Breath was teaching resources & vipassana
Dear Mike,
 Almost always breath is concept when we are aware of it.
Especially when it is used as an object for samattha and a
nimitta arises this is obviously concept. And even during
vipassana when there is awareness of the different namas and
rupas that arise almost simultaneoulsy with breath - the breath
itself is not an object for satipatthana. However breath is
actually composed of rupas that are conditioned ONLY by citta
(citta-samutthana-rupa). Only special type of wisdom can
actually distinguish between the rupas that are citta-samutthana
-rupa and say those that are utu -samutthana-rupa. Thus we might
think we are experiencing the rupas that are conditioned by
citta but actually be observing other types - it is exceedingly
hard to know. And most of the time whatever rupa we experience
is seen only with vinnana(consciousness) and sanna (perception)
but not with panna (wisdom). Breath is a real hard one. (Isn't
it all?)
Robert


--- bruce  wrote:
> hi robert
> 
> you wrote:
> 
> > > does everyone agree that samatha can only have pannati as
> > > aramana? 
> > ____________
> > The arammana are mostly pannati but not all. Even the color
> > discs are used as pannati, as Kom explained. I went into
> some
> > detail a while back about anapanasati and how it is usually
a
> > concept but it can be known (possibly) in some ways as
> > paramattha by those with extraordinary accumulations (but
> not
> > when developed to a high degree as an object of samattha).
> The 4
> > elements are not pannati but they can be used as objects for
> > samattha. They are seen as simply earth element or hardness
> but
> > there is still not the understanding of anattaness that goes
> > with vipassana. 
> 
> thanks, i'd like to try to find the thread in the
> archives...assuming you
> haven't saved every one of your outgoing messages: does anyone
> remember the
> title of this thread?  even something close, and i'll try
> variations with
> egroups not-so-trusty search engine...
> 
> i really should go back and read the year's worth or
> posts...ahh for more
> hours in the day...
> 
> bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
2688 From:  
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 9:22pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Amara,
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge of the Tipitaka and the 
"Summary..." Most of what you write is very closely derived from the 
Tipitaka or its authoritative commentaries, and I am delighted by 
that. 

Sometimes, though, the Tipitaka is silent about certain topics. For 
example, there is apparently no explicit mention of whether bhaya-nana 
refers to wisdom about real, directly experienced fear, or wisdom 
about an abstract, rationated fear or even a recollected fear from 
sometime before nama-rupa-paricheda-nana arises. Thinking about it for 
a moment, it seems clear that it HAS to be wisdom about real, directly 
experienced fear. But that is just rational thinking and may or may 
not be correct. Tipitaka is apparently silent here, so we can't get 
direct confirmation. I don't know for sure, but the commentaries may 
also be silent on this detail. Mahasi clearly indicated that the 
bhaya-nana is knowledge of a directly experienced fear: "[The yogi's] 
mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless." This accords more 
closely to my reasoning and experience than do your deviations from 
Tipitaka. Your deviation from Tipitaka is writing that the bhaya-nana 
is not derived from a real, directly experienced fear, that it 
is not wisdom regarding a real, directly experienced fear. Please note 
that I do not say that you contradict Tipitaka, only that you are 
extrapolating or deviating from Tipitaka. Your extrapolation differs 
from Mahasi's, and it differs from mine, but to the best of my 
knowledge, none of the extrapolations contradicts Tipitaka.

In closing, you wrote:
> This is how I understand it, sorry if it is not what you expected to 
> hear.  I would of course be interested to know if you could find any 
> deviation from the Tipitaka in this analysis,
I don't know that I was expecting to hear anything in particular. I 
was HOPING that someone would fill in some details that I haven't been 
able to find in Tipitaka. I learn a great deal hearing about and 
thinking about your extrapolations and conceptions and enjoy the 
interaction with you. Please don't feel that you need to apologize.

 
2689 From:  
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:06pm
Subject: Papañca [again]

 
  I was looking for a different discourse (addressing contention for 
the things of the world) when I ran across this one.  I'd read it 
before, but had forgotten its unusual emphasis on papañca and its 
place in paticcasamuppada.  Having recently experienced more than my 
share of papañca, I thought I'd pass this along. I loved Stick-In-
Hand the Brahmin's response.  I think I remember reading somewhere 
that 'Stick-In-Hand's' name did NOT refer to a walking-stick.  I 
think this is an example of the Buddha matching his teaching to the 
(contentious, in this case) character of his audience.  

"If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & 
categories of complication [papañca] assail a person, there is 
nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is 
the end of the underlying tendencies to passion, to irritation, to 
views, to uncertainty, to conceit, to passion for becoming, & to 
ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of 
arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & 
false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease 
without remainder." That is what the Blessed One said. Having said 
it, the One Well-gone got up from his seat and went into his 
dwelling." 

Majjhima Nikaya 18
Madhupindika Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn18.html

 
2690 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > Thanks again for sharing your knowledge of the Tipitaka and the 
> "Summary..." Most of what you write is very closely derived from the 
> Tipitaka or its authoritative commentaries, and I am delighted by 
> that. 
> 
> Sometimes, though, the Tipitaka is silent about certain topics. For 
> example, there is apparently no explicit mention of whether 
bhaya-nana 
> refers to wisdom about real, directly experienced fear, or wisdom 
> about an abstract, rationated fear or even a recollected fear from 
> sometime before nama-rupa-paricheda-nana arises. Thinking about it 
for 
> a moment, it seems clear that it HAS to be wisdom about real, 
directly 
> experienced fear. But that is just rational thinking and may or may 
> not be correct. Tipitaka is apparently silent here, so we can't get 
> direct confirmation. 


While the Tipitaka may not give all the details, the Attasalini does, 
I can't remember the exact quote, but the gist is as I explained 
earlier.  The fear is not about any dosa but the continuation of the 
deepening process of accumulated wisdom about things as they really 
are: first the study of the characteristics of nama and rupa is 
accumulated to the point where there is perfectly clear and 
spectacularly unforgetable experience of the rupa that is the aramana 
at that instant as rupa, then the experience of the nama through the 
mano dvara that is normally never experienced in daily life, 
immediately after: none of which is the self.  As panna is accumulated 
and grows to the next level, sati-patthana would continue to study the 
characteristics of realities and grow until perfect for the next nana 
to arise to experience the arising and falling away, first there is 
nothing, then reality arises, then nothing again.  Right memory of 
anattaness accumulates, but there is still the warmth of feeling that 
there is something there to cling to, until the bhaya nana arises.  
The bhaya nana not only clearly experiences the arising and falling 
away even more clearly, but experiences the harm, the nothingness of 
what arises and falls away, which leads to the end of clinging to the 
self in the higher nana, ultimaately the sotapanna.


I don't know for sure, but the commentaries may 
> also be silent on this detail. 


In the Atthasalini and others there are many clear detail, will look 
them up tomorrow at the foundation.


Mahasi clearly indicated that the 
> bhaya-nana is knowledge of a directly experienced fear: "[The 
yogi's] 
> mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless." This accords 
more 
> closely to my reasoning and experience than do your deviations from 
> Tipitaka. Your deviation from Tipitaka is writing that the 
bhaya-nana 
> is not derived from a real, directly experienced fear, that it 
> is not wisdom regarding a real, directly experienced fear.


Dosa, fear or terror of any kind is akusala, they could never arise in 
a process of wisdom or panna, it is impossible.  


 Please 
note 
> that I do not say that you contradict Tipitaka, only that you are 
> extrapolating or deviating from Tipitaka. 


Only if you say that the commentaries deviate and not this book of 
yours, and I much prefer the commentaries, which are much more 
coherent.


Your extrapolation differs 
> from Mahasi's, and it differs from mine, but to the best of my 
> knowledge, none of the extrapolations contradicts Tipitaka.


The Commentaries certainly do not, while saying that 'The 
yogi's mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless' in both 
full of the atta and dosa, and no panna whatever, how could you say 
that such akusala is necessary to panna?  Never according to the 
Tipitaka and/or commentaries.


> I don't know that I was expecting to hear anything in particular. I 
> was HOPING that someone would fill in some details that I haven't 
been 
> able to find in Tipitaka. I learn a great deal hearing about and 
> thinking about your extrapolations and conceptions and enjoy the 
> interaction with you. Please don't feel that you need to apologize.


Then I am glad to tell you to read the Atthasalini instead of some 
strange book that associates dosa, an akusala citta, with panna, 
something impossible.  We are not in a horror movie here!

Have fun with the Atthasalini,

Amara

 
2691 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Khun Amara,

Thank you for the correction.  Anumoddhana to your most excelent posts
recently.

kom
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> 
> > The story I hear is that a person achieving an arahatship will not
> > survive more than 7 days without being ordained.  I have never
> heard
> > (but have not asked enough) of anybody giving an explanation (that
> I
> > can understand) of why this is.  My (wild) guess is that the person
> 
> has
> > absolutely no reason to fend for himself (to live), and being a
> > layperson, in order to live, you have to fend for yourself (cloth,
> > food, roof over head, medicine, etc).  Being a monk is the way to
> > sustain the 5-khandas acceptably, and by basically being the
> > immeasurable field of merits: an arahat only lives for others.
> > 
> > The answer in Mirinda panha is something like: a layperson life 
> cannot
> > sustain an arahat as being arahat is "heavy".  Only a life of an
> > umblemished Sangha (a "heavy" profession) can sustain such a heavy
> > person.
> 
> 
> Dear K. Kom,
> 
> That is the general belief, the seven day period, but from what Tan 
> Ajaan and our experts say, this passage has never been located in 
> the Tipitaka (and/or Commentaries).  Actually it is interesting that 
> a person could probably not survive longer without water, still in 
> those days most people really rejoiced to have bhikkhu to teach them 
> and be as you say, 'immeasurable field of merits'.
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2692 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > i've been meaning to open up this topic, as many of you may 
remember....now
> that tobacco withdrawal symptoms have pretty much abated (10 days 
and
> counting...phew!!...thanks for all the kind words of support...) i 
feel
> like i can put a short, relatively coherent email together (and send 
it to
> the right forum!)...


Dear Bruce,

Bravo!!!  So glad to hear from you and so coherently!

Just a quick 'hi' and 'you did it', for now, except perhaps to comment 
that I am sitting down at this moment, and as I write moments of sati 
appear, even as I see visible objects on the screen now, hear sounds 
of the keyboard and the computer, etc.  Would you call that 'sitting'? 
 Anyway who does not physically take a seat in a day, and who's to say 
that satipatthana couldn't arise each time?  Certainly arises often 
enough in front of the computer for me!!!

More later, again, bravo, anumodana,

Amara

 
2693 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > Thank you for the correction.  


Dear K. Kom,

Hardly a correction, just a clarification to share a point only 
recently discussed at the English session- thought you might like to 
know,

Amara

 
 
2694 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 10:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Hi Robert,

Thanks for reposting.  I have some questions for you.
--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> [DhammaStudyGroup]Breath was teaching resources & vipassana
> Dear Mike,
>  Almost always breath is concept when we are aware of it.
> Especially when it is used as an object for samattha and a
> nimitta arises this is obviously concept. 
You are saying here that in the beginning, the meditator (samatha
bhavana) may have poramattha as aramana.  However, since to develop the
samatha bhanvana further, nimita must appear, and therefore, at this
point, it becomes pannati.  Is this about right?


> And even during
> vipassana when there is awareness of the different namas and
> rupas that arise almost simultaneoulsy with breath - the breath
> itself is not an object for satipatthana. However breath is
> actually composed of rupas that are conditioned ONLY by citta
> (citta-samutthana-rupa). Only special type of wisdom can
> actually distinguish between the rupas that are citta-samutthana
> -rupa and say those that are utu -samutthana-rupa.  Thus we might
> think we are experiencing the rupas that are conditioned by
> citta but actually be observing other types - it is exceedingly
> hard to know. 
Do you know of anyone who actually try to "observe" the differences
between citta-samutthana and utu-samutthana rupa?  Are the differences
actually observable via Satipatthana?  This is where I can understand
how being unwise studying Abhidhamma could cause insanity...

kom


 
2695 From: bruce   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  hi amara

> Just a quick 'hi' and 'you did it', for now, except perhaps to comment 
> that I am sitting down at this moment, and as I write moments of sati 
> appear, even as I see visible objects on the screen now, hear sounds 
> of the keyboard and the computer, etc.  Would you call that 'sitting'? 
>  Anyway who does not physically take a seat in a day, and who's to say 
> that satipatthana couldn't arise each time?  Certainly arises often 
> enough in front of the computer for me!!!

haha! then you sure are lucky!:-) 

but why does it *feel* like i'm spinning out so much more panatti when i'm
sitting in front of the computer than when i'm sitting attempting samatha
bhavana??

bruce

 
2696 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > but why does it *feel* like i'm spinning out so much more panatti 
when i'm
> sitting in front of the computer than when i'm sitting attempting 
samatha
> bhavana??


Dear Bruce,

Perhaps because you are not conscious of thinking as only thinking, 
word after word, thought after thought, and all so fast because the 
citta is as fast as at least 17 times the speed of light, since light 
is only rupa!  As you 'spinning out so much more panatti sitting in 
front of the computer', billions of citta had arisen and fallen away 
and myriad rupa as well, even as you read this.  Sight, sounds, 
thinking, and whole loads of bhavanga had fallen away, and others 
arise in their place when there are conditions for them to.  Moments 
of your hand on the mouse, the hardness has its own characteristics 
different from sight and seeing, all these are knowledge of realities 
as they really are, just what appears, and then something else does.  
You cannot control them, they arise from conditions and fall away 
without you being able to do anything, by the time you recognize them, 
they are gone, never to return in exactly the same way again.  To 
study them will confirm and add to the theoretic knowledge we have of 
the tilakkhana, and accumulate right understanding, so I say just know 
that with the right conditions sati can arise anywhere, especially 
when dhamma is discussed, for me.

This is why I love talking to you all,

Amara

 
2697 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Re: Papañca [again]

 
  Dear Mike, 

I just remembered that I haven't gotten back to you on the mantra 
recital as per 'Birth,...', or have I?

In any case K Sujin said that recitals are the general practice, 
(not for me, but I remember my mother taught me some ever since I 
learned to speak, so I am perhaps the exception) I think she does 
every night, and she says any reflection on the Buddha's beneficence 
is always good.

Message delivered,

Amara

 
2698 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 1:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Hi Bruce,

I am glad you are succeeding with your efforts to quit smoking.

--- bruce  wrote:
> -- for those of you who don't: what are your reasons for not sitting?
By sitting, I assume you mean in two different contexts: samatha
bhavana and vipassana bhavana.  For samatha bhavana, the desired result
of such practice is to attain the (temporary) freedom from kilesa at
the uppana level.  The conditions for attaining this level is severely
strict: it's possible only when you live a recluse's life (you must be
a very reclusive monk, for example).  If you are "developing" samatha
bhavana as a layperson, and you are doing this correctly, all you
getting is maha-kusala cittas, not jhana cittas.  This is a practice
considered "micha-patipadha", as it does not lead to nibbhana.  Only
the development of Satipatthana/Vipassana nana can one reach nibbhana. 
So the answer why one may not want to develop samatha bhavana (for a
layperson) is: why bother?  Maha-kusala cittas arise during dana, sila,
and studying realities.  If arising with the right level of panna,
these will lead to nibhana.  Why develop anything that doesn't lead to
Nibhana?

For Vipassana bhavana, there is no where in the three tipitakas that
mention that you MUST sit in order to develop it.  Many people
mentioned in the Sutta reached Nibbhana without such sitting practices
(I believe Buddha's father became a sotapanna while standing up). 
Furthermore, the specific guidelines given by the schools that teach
sitting/standing/walking as the way to develop vipassana cannot be
traced to the tipitaka and the commentaries: they have uncertain
sources at best if not downright unreliable.  Given that Buddha's
teachings are extremely refined and can be very easily mistaken
(witness the many groups of beliefs even in Thailand where theravada is
supposed to reign supreme) and even misterintpreted for personal gains,
I think it should give all of us a shudder to be taking something as
Buddha's teachings when it is not verifiable.

Another question is, if following such guidelines (and interpreting the
different signs as reaching certain nana) are so important, why did the
Buddha bother teaching for 45 years?  Why not just come up with the
comprehensive retreat courses (like there are many out there nowadays)
that will take you to Nibhana?  One explanation that I heard was that:
the buddha actually taught this, but it was lost.  So someone actually
"reclaimed" this knowledge by themself (or some other supernatural mean
/ perhaps through the devas???).  I am afraid that I need to take that
with a large grain of salt.  There are still many of the Buddhas
teachings that aren't lost and reclaimed.

Although it MAY be possible that Satipatthana may actually arise during
such sitting practice, the guidelines in such teachings are all meddled
up about the conditions that would cause satipatthana to arise;
sometimes, they could be just plainly wrong.  An example of the right
conditions is listening to Dhamma; I can't see how you could dispute
that.  However, one of the guidelines that I came across (when learning
about the vipassana in one sitting school that I thought was the real
thing) is to "observe" the sitting "rupa".  There is, in fact, no such
poramattha dhamma that can be classified or interpreted as sitting
rupa.  All you will be doing to observe sitting is to be accumulating
papanca about "I", "my posture", and sanna of non-realities.  Worse
yet, you are thinking that you are in fact developing panna while you
are just developing refined micha-dithi.  Developing micha-dithi just
have to be the worst of all the papanca.  I am only giving one example.
 Are you sure there are no others?

> 
> the world is doing when they sit simply:  samatha?  
There are also wrong samatha bhavana.  When one does not know the
difference between kusala and akusala, kusala (which samatha bhavana
must be) can simply not be developed.  Again, one could be developing
the refined lobha (of the vedana associated with sitting) and moha
here.  A lot of Thai people take the absense of thinking about things
that are bothering them in their daily lives (you wouldn't believe how
many Thai women go on such a retreat to have an escape from the
problems they are having with their boyfriends/spouses) as samatha
bhavana.  Worse than that, they think it is the way to nibhana.


> does anybody
> actually
> sit and "do" vipassana??  
I did that once.  I think some people in this list do.  There are other
people who also do.  But do you know that they are doing the right
thing?  Do you understand what satipatthana is?  Do you know what are
the conditions contributing to the rising of Satipatthana?  Do you
understanding the differences between pannati and poramatha dhamma?  I
am not asking these questions because I don't think you do, but because
I think we need to understand those issues before we can be certain
that the "practice" that "we" follow is the right practice.

I will send another message about my understandings in other areas that
you have asked.  Right now, duty is calling...

kom


 
2699 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 1:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Kom and Amara,

Kom wrote:

>> The story I hear is that a person achieving an arahatship will not
>> survive more than 7 days without being ordained.  I have never heard
>> (but have not asked enough) of anybody giving an explanation (that I
>> can understand) of why this is.  My (wild) guess is that the person
>has
>> absolutely no reason to fend for himself (to live), and being a
>> layperson, in order to live, you have to fend for yourself (cloth,
>> food, roof over head, medicine, etc).  Being a monk is the way to
>> sustain the 5-khandas acceptably, and by basically being the
>> immeasurable field of merits: an arahat only lives for others.
>>
>> The answer in Mirinda panha is something like: a layperson life
>cannot
>> sustain an arahat as being arahat is "heavy".  Only a life of an
>> umblemished Sangha (a "heavy" profession) can sustain such a heavy
>> person.

Amara replies:

>Dear K. Kom,
>
>That is the general belief, the seven day period, but from what Tan
>Ajaan and our experts say, this passage has never been located in
>the Tipitaka (and/or Commentaries).  Actually it is interesting that
>a person could probably not survive longer without water, still in
>those days most people really rejoiced to have bhikkhu to teach them
>and be as you say, 'immeasurable field of merits'.


According to the Majjhimanikaaya commentary (MA iii 196 PTS) on MN 71, the
period is the same day -- not seven days:

. . . arahatta.m patvaa ta.m divasam eva pabbajati vaa parinibbaati vaa.

after [a householder] reaches arahatship, he either goes forth that very day
or reaches complete extinction of existence [dies].

See also the Kathaavatthu, IV.1 where some have argued that a householder
can continue to be one after reaching arahatship.

Best wishes,
Jim Anderson

 
2700 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 1:51am
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > According to the Majjhimanikaaya commentary (MA iii 196 PTS) on MN 
71, the
> period is the same day -- not seven days:
> 
> . . . arahatta.m patvaa ta.m divasam eva pabbajati vaa parinibbaati 
vaa.
> 
> after [a householder] reaches arahatship, he either goes forth that 
very day
> or reaches complete extinction of existence [dies].
> 
> See also the Kathaavatthu, IV.1 where some have argued that a 
householder
> can continue to be one after reaching arahatship.


Dear Jim,

Welcome back!  Thanks for the timely (as usual) quotation, but does it 
mean that he dies that very day too or that he becomes ordained that 
day only, does the grammatical structure tell?  (or is this nit 
picking?)

Anumodana in your kusala cetana, really great to hear from you,

Amara

 
2701  
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 5:45am
Subject: Re: Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Kom, Mike and friends,

>Even the samatha development using
> anapanasati (breath) as aramana, the samatha object is still a 
concept.

   Good point!  That's how the "vipassana" meditators get into 
samatha development while they think that they are doing "vipassana" 
meditation.

> > Kom, your posts are a living (?) example of why it's a
> > DAMNED (pardon my French) good idea to study
> > abhidhamma.
> Yes.  In fact, I think this is true for anything, even with things 
not
> strictly related to Vipassana/Satipatthana/Samatha Bhavana.  For
> example, how does one develop kusala when one does not understand 
the
> differences between kusala and akusala?   How does one build a good
> bridge if one doesn't know the differences between a good bridge 
and a
> bad bridge?  

    With right view, of course!  

>Satipatthana and the 8-fold path is harder to understand
> than that: it takes a Buddha to understand it without teachings. 

    Sadhu... 

Anumodana,
AT

 
2702 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 8:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Amara,

>> According to the Majjhimanikaaya commentary (MA iii 196 PTS) on MN
>71, the
>> period is the same day -- not seven days:
>>
>> . . . arahatta.m patvaa ta.m divasam eva pabbajati vaa parinibbaati
>vaa.
>>
>> after [a householder] reaches arahatship, he either goes forth that
>very day
>> or reaches complete extinction of existence [dies].
>>
>> See also the Kathaavatthu, IV.1 where some have argued that a
>householder
>> can continue to be one after reaching arahatship.
>
>
>Dear Jim,
>
>Welcome back!  Thanks for the timely (as usual) quotation, but does it
>mean that he dies that very day too or that he becomes ordained that
>day only, does the grammatical structure tell?  (or is this nit
>picking?)
>
>Anumodana in your kusala cetana, really great to hear from you,
>
>Amara

Thanks for welcoming me back and I'm glad to be participating again. I
understand the quote: ". . . after [a householder] reaches arahatship, he
either goes forth that very day or reaches complete extinction of existence
[dies]" to mean that the householder (gihi) turned arahant has two
alternatives: he either goes forth within the same day he reached arahatship
or else he dies (enters into parinibbana). I assume that if he ordains he
will be a monk for the remainder of his life and I think it unlikely that he
will ordain and die on the same day.

An example of a householder who became an arahant was Yasa (Vinaya
Mahaavagga I.7) whom the Buddha ordained shortly afterwards and who
continued to live on. But in the case of Baahiya (Udaana I.10), the Buddha
did not grant him the going forth due to his past kamma. So instead of going
forth he was killed by a mad cow shortly after he reached arahatship. This
last example suggests that a householder/layperson may not be able to pick
and choose which alternative will actually take place.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2703 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear kom,
see comments below:
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Hi Robert,
> 
> Thanks for reposting.  I have some questions for you.
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> wrote:
> > [DhammaStudyGroup]Breath was teaching resources & vipassana
> > Dear Mike,
> >  Almost always breath is concept when we are aware of it.
> > Especially when it is used as an object for samattha and a
> > nimitta arises this is obviously concept. 
> You are saying here that in the beginning, the meditator
> (samatha
> bhavana) may have poramattha as aramana.  However, since to
> develop the
> samatha bhanvana further, nimita must appear, and therefore,
> at this
> point, it becomes pannati.  Is this about right?
> _________________
Certainly from the stage when the breath nimitta is taken as
object it can only be pannati. But in fact it will be pannati
almost always in the beginning too. I actually only brought up
this whole thing just to show the exception, in case someone had
doubts.

___________________> 
> > And even during
> > vipassana when there is awareness of the different namas and
> > rupas that arise almost simultaneoulsy with breath - the
> breath
> > itself is not an object for satipatthana. However breath is
> > actually composed of rupas that are conditioned ONLY by
> citta
> > (citta-samutthana-rupa). Only special type of wisdom can
> > actually distinguish between the rupas that are
> citta-samutthana
> > -rupa and say those that are utu -samutthana-rupa.  Thus we
> might
> > think we are experiencing the rupas that are conditioned by
> > citta but actually be observing other types - it is
> exceedingly
> > hard to know. 
_________________
> Do you know of anyone who actually try to "observe" the
> differences
> between citta-samutthana and utu-samutthana rupa? 
__________
I'm sure there will be those who will try.
______
 Are the
> differences
> actually observable via Satipatthana? 
____________
Well sariputta would be able to do it. maybe some of the other
great disciples too. Us, these days....?.
The thing with satipatthana anyway is that the heart is not
about experiencing special subtle rupas that don't appear in
daily life. Real satipatthana  is about seeing that whatever
appears now is conditioned and not self.

 This is where I can
> understand
> how being unwise studying Abhidhamma could cause insanity...
____________
Yes - if we try to stretch our understanding beyond its capacity
we strain. And that doesn't help.
Actually I just got a letter from nina saying that Khun Sujin
stressed on the Cambodia trip that the whole purpose of
Abhidhamma study was not book knowledge, not memorising many
details and that while studying realising all the time as to how
it helped understand this moment. It is counterproductive to try
to know things that are beyond our understanding. Always there
has to be a balance, the middle path, even when it comes to
Abhidhamma.

Robert
> 



 
2704 From: bruce   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  hi kom and robert
question below


> Dear kom,
> see comments below:
> --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> > Hi Robert,
> > 
> > Thanks for reposting.  I have some questions for you.
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> > wrote:
> > > [DhammaStudyGroup]Breath was teaching resources & vipassana
> > > Dear Mike,
> > >  Almost always breath is concept when we are aware of it.
> > > Especially when it is used as an object for samattha and a
> > > nimitta arises this is obviously concept. 
> > You are saying here that in the beginning, the meditator
> > (samatha
> > bhavana) may have poramattha as aramana.  However, since to
> > develop the
> > samatha bhanvana further, nimita must appear, and therefore,
> > at this
> > point, it becomes pannati.  Is this about right?
> > _________________
> Certainly from the stage when the breath nimitta is taken as
> object it can only be pannati. But in fact it will be pannati
> almost always in the beginning too. I actually only brought up
> this whole thing just to show the exception, in case someone had
> doubts.

i'd like to know more about the breath nimitta....doesn't nimitta mean
sign? and doesn't this imply a visual image of the meditation object? how
can a meditation subject of touch yield a visual image? this is something
i've always wondered about, ie: is there a sign/counterpart sign associated
with the breath, and if so, how is it described in the texts/commentaries?

bruce

 
2705 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:55am
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > I assume that if he ordains he
> will be a monk for the remainder of his life and I think it unlikely 
that he
> will ordain and die on the same day.


Dear Jim,

Nor did I, actually: I really meant to ask whether if the arahanta  
would not ordain he would die the very same day, which in fact you 
already answered...  Still I wonder if Baahiya had already attained 
arahantship before asking to be ordained, although he did before he 
died?  (Not that he had any choice, of course, a very good point.)  
I will reread the passages you suggested, thanks again very much,

Amara


> An example of a householder who became an arahant was Yasa (Vinaya
> Mahaavagga I.7) whom the Buddha ordained shortly afterwards and who
> continued to live on. But in the case of Baahiya (Udaana I.10), the 
Buddha
> did not grant him the going forth due to his past kamma. So instead 
of going
> forth he was killed by a mad cow shortly after he reached 
arahatship. This
> last example suggests that a householder/layperson may not be able 
to pick
> and choose which alternative will actually take place.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.

 
2706 From: bruce   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 11:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  hi kom

this is the smartest, clearest explanation i have read in a long time....no
comments/further questions just yet....thanks so much for taking the time
to work through these questions...you understood my questions exactly, as
well as my own level of understanding... and you also hit the nail on the
head when you said:

>Do you
> understanding the differences between pannati and poramatha dhamma?

that's the crux of the whole matter, isn't it?

anumodana
bruce




At 09:09 2001/01/05 -0800, you wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
> 
> I am glad you are succeeding with your efforts to quit smoking.
> 
> --- bruce  wrote:
> > -- for those of you who don't: what are your reasons for not sitting?
> By sitting, I assume you mean in two different contexts: samatha
> bhavana and vipassana bhavana.  For samatha bhavana, the desired result
> of such practice is to attain the (temporary) freedom from kilesa at
> the uppana level.  The conditions for attaining this level is severely
> strict: it's possible only when you live a recluse's life (you must be
> a very reclusive monk, for example).  If you are "developing" samatha
> bhavana as a layperson, and you are doing this correctly, all you
> getting is maha-kusala cittas, not jhana cittas.  This is a practice
> considered "micha-patipadha", as it does not lead to nibbhana.  Only
> the development of Satipatthana/Vipassana nana can one reach nibbhana. 
> So the answer why one may not want to develop samatha bhavana (for a
> layperson) is: why bother?  Maha-kusala cittas arise during dana, sila,
> and studying realities.  If arising with the right level of panna,
> these will lead to nibhana.  Why develop anything that doesn't lead to
> Nibhana?
> 
> For Vipassana bhavana, there is no where in the three tipitakas that
> mention that you MUST sit in order to develop it.  Many people
> mentioned in the Sutta reached Nibbhana without such sitting practices
> (I believe Buddha's father became a sotapanna while standing up). 
> Furthermore, the specific guidelines given by the schools that teach
> sitting/standing/walking as the way to develop vipassana cannot be
> traced to the tipitaka and the commentaries: they have uncertain
> sources at best if not downright unreliable.  Given that Buddha's
> teachings are extremely refined and can be very easily mistaken
> (witness the many groups of beliefs even in Thailand where theravada is
> supposed to reign supreme) and even misterintpreted for personal gains,
> I think it should give all of us a shudder to be taking something as
> Buddha's teachings when it is not verifiable.
> 
> Another question is, if following such guidelines (and interpreting the
> different signs as reaching certain nana) are so important, why did the
> Buddha bother teaching for 45 years?  Why not just come up with the
> comprehensive retreat courses (like there are many out there nowadays)
> that will take you to Nibhana?  One explanation that I heard was that:
> the buddha actually taught this, but it was lost.  So someone actually
> "reclaimed" this knowledge by themself (or some other supernatural mean
> / perhaps through the devas???).  I am afraid that I need to take that
> with a large grain of salt.  There are still many of the Buddhas
> teachings that aren't lost and reclaimed.
> 
> Although it MAY be possible that Satipatthana may actually arise during
> such sitting practice, the guidelines in such teachings are all meddled
> up about the conditions that would cause satipatthana to arise;
> sometimes, they could be just plainly wrong.  An example of the right
> conditions is listening to Dhamma; I can't see how you could dispute
> that.  However, one of the guidelines that I came across (when learning
> about the vipassana in one sitting school that I thought was the real
> thing) is to "observe" the sitting "rupa".  There is, in fact, no such
> poramattha dhamma that can be classified or interpreted as sitting
> rupa.  All you will be doing to observe sitting is to be accumulating
> papanca about "I", "my posture", and sanna of non-realities.  Worse
> yet, you are thinking that you are in fact developing panna while you
> are just developing refined micha-dithi.  Developing micha-dithi just
> have to be the worst of all the papanca.  I am only giving one example.
>  Are you sure there are no others?
> 
> > 
> > the world is doing when they sit simply:  samatha?  
> There are also wrong samatha bhavana.  When one does not know the
> difference between kusala and akusala, kusala (which samatha bhavana
> must be) can simply not be developed.  Again, one could be developing
> the refined lobha (of the vedana associated with sitting) and moha
> here.  A lot of Thai people take the absense of thinking about things
> that are bothering them in their daily lives (you wouldn't believe how
> many Thai women go on such a retreat to have an escape from the
> problems they are having with their boyfriends/spouses) as samatha
> bhavana.  Worse than that, they think it is the way to nibhana.
> 
> 
> > does anybody
> > actually
> > sit and "do" vipassana??  
> I did that once.  I think some people in this list do.  There are other
> people who also do.  But do you know that they are doing the right
> thing?  Do you understand what satipatthana is?  Do you know what are
> the conditions contributing to the rising of Satipatthana?  Do you
> understanding the differences between pannati and poramatha dhamma?  I
> am not asking these questions because I don't think you do, but because
> I think we need to understand those issues before we can be certain
> that the "practice" that "we" follow is the right practice.
> 
> I will send another message about my understandings in other areas that
> you have asked.  Right now, duty is calling...
> 
> kom
> 


 
2707 From:  
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 0:09pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear,


> For samatha bhavana, the desired result of such practice is to 
> attain the (temporary) freedom from kilesa at the uppana level.  
> The conditions for attaining this level is severely strict: it's 
> possible only when you live a recluse's life (you must be a very 
> reclusive monk, for example).  If you are "developing" samatha
> bhavana as a layperson, and you are doing this correctly, all you
> getting is maha-kusala cittas, not jhana cittas.  This is a practice
> considered "micha-patipadha", as it does not lead to nibbhana.  Only
> the development of Satipatthana/Vipassana nana can one reach 
nibbhana. 
> So the answer why one may not want to develop samatha bhavana (for a
> layperson) is: why bother?  Maha-kusala cittas arise during dana, 
sila,
> and studying realities.  If arising with the right level of panna,
> these will lead to nibhana.  Why develop anything that doesn't lead 
to
> Nibhana?
________________________
From my reading and understanding, for attaining the temporary 
freedom from kilesa at uppana level, it doesn't depend on whether one 
leads a reclusive life or whether a monk or a layperson, but depends 
on whether does the one whose practice aims for nibbana or not. If 
one aims for nibbana, very single effort will lead to the goal. 
The statement somehow, I feel, differs the effort between monk and 
layperson. I remember that the path is the same for EVERYONE who 
practise it correctly. I might be wrong but can I have a reference 
from tipitaka for the above statement.
________________________



Lee

 
2708 From:  
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 0:35pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Mike and others,

> Nice to hear from you again!!!  I know you were
> responding to Robert, but:
> 
____________________
I addressed to Robert just for ease. I will be glad if anyone who 
like to share with.
____________________

> > Just to be pondered:
> > 
> > 1. Are arahants referred as wise people? 
> > 2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the
> > sangha order as 
> > they have all done?
> 
> If memory serves (corrections, please), an arahat
> can't break (because of no motivation to do so) any of
> the 226 precepts.  So, besides already being perfect
> bhikkus, why not ordain?
_____________________
I next question to this is: Why must they? As someone answered that
arahant is "heavier" to layperson or arahant will "die" in seven days 
if he did not ordain. And someone mentioned that the seven-day 
statement has no reference. Someone mentioned that arahant needs to 
fend for his life and by entering the sangha will do for them. And 
arahants live for others, too. 
I think arahants live for no one but only for dhamma. From my hearsay
(so please correct me if it is wrong), the seven-day period idea was 
introduced by the sangha community years after the Buddha Parinibbana 
for the sake to uphold the sangha status which is downfalling, 
besides there was an idea then that layperson can achieve the same 
fruitions and there is no need to be a monk.
_____________________


Lee

 
 
2709 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 0:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear bruce,
You have a knack of asking the questions that should be asked. A
bit of a busy time for me though, so I can only say a little.
(Sarah and Jon?).

--- bruce  wrote:
>  > but why does it *feel* like i'm spinning out so much more
> panatti when i'm
> sitting in front of the computer than when i'm sitting
> attempting samatha
> bhavana??
> 
> bruce

This is related also to the mulapariyaya sutta which we
discussed a little (and will have more about in the future). 
Panatti is far more than just thinking about something.
Even when we are experiencing paramattha dhammas, there are
always moments of pannatti coming in. One may be feeling very
concentrated and calm, no obvious thinking, and yet still heaps
of pannatti and papanca. 

Sometimes people think that it is easier to be aware of say
rupas in the body than seeing and colour because when seeing we
immediately think of people , tables, objects and so
on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to
accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc.
through the bodysense. Sound may also seem easier as it
falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't
change so much.
But I wonder about this. It is true that when we
perceive heat or hardness we can easily know that it
is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
slight idea of something being there? We may not
think of person or body but even if we think of
hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
element? Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
intricate conditions making up
sankharakkhanda. 
So papanca can be there just as much as ever; but with the added
delusion of believing we have none. 
The path is not as easy as sitting down and concentrating and
following instructions. I wish it was ( but that is tanha and
self wishing).

Jonothan wrote something a while back which is worth reading
again:
The distinction between samatha bhavana and vipassana
bhavana is an area that rewards closer study.  It can
help us to understand each of these 2 types of bhavana
much better.  Proper understanding at an intellectual
level is a prerequisite to correct practice (as your
recent experience exemplifies).

Here are some points of comparison between samatha
bhavana and vipassana bhavana-

1.   In samatha bhavana, the goal is the attainment of
jhana and, on death, rebirth in one of the jhana
planes, while in vipassana bhavana the goal is the
release from this existence and from further rebirth.

2.   The necessary impetus for samatha bhavana is
seeing the danger in sense-door impressions and the
akusala cittas conditioned by those impressions, while
in vipassana bhavana the necessary impetus is seeing
the unsatisfactoriness in the conditioned nature of
this existence.

3.   If samatha is developed correctly, a stage will
be reached when the sense-door impressions are shut
out.  In vipassana bhavana, however, the sense doors,
sense-door objects and the contact, feelings etc that
arise dependant on the sense-door experiences are to
be fully known (along with the mind door).

4.   Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are
accompanied by panna.  In samatha bhavana the panna is
of a level that knows kusala-citta from akusala-citta
but without seeing the essential characteristic of the
citta.  In vipassana bhavana the panna sees realities
(all realities) as they really are.

5.  Samatha bhavana leads to the temporary subduing of
akusala citta (`Samatha' means peacefulness or
tranquillity, in the sense of peacefulness from
akusala), while vipassana bhavana leads to the final
eradication of all kilesa including the latent
tendencies.

6.   The practice of samatha bhavana involves at some
stage the citta becoming concentrated on a chosen
object (the meditation subject), while in vipassana
bhavana the aim is to know any paramattha dhamma that
appears, as and when it appears.

7.  The meditation subject in samatha bhavana is for
the most part a concept, while in vipassana bhavana
the object of the citta is a reality, a paramattha
dhamma.

8.  When samatha bhavana is developed to the level of
jhana, the object of the jhana citta is one of the
meditation subjects.  When vipassana bhavana is
developed to the level of Eightfold path
consciousness, the object of the citta is nibbana.

9.   In samatha bhavana, unwholesome distracting
thoughts are an obstacle to progress and must be
overcome by directing the mind elsewhere, while in
vipassana bhavana any reality - nama, including even
ignorance, or rupa - may be taken as the object of the
satipatthana citta

10.   The higher levels of samatha bhavana require
very specific conditions, eg as to place, time,
lifestyle, health even diet, to come to fruition.  In
vipassana bhavana none of these factors are specially
relevant;  there are no constraints on the time, place
or circumstances in which vipassana bhavana may take
place.

These comparisons  help
us understand how the 2 kinds of kusala differ in
their practice and accordingly lead to 2 quite
different goals.

I suspect that many people who teach samatha and/or
vipassana do not clearly understand these differences,
and so tend to confuse the two.

Jonothan




 
2710 From:  
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Hi Bruce and others,

First of all, though I have followed hundreds of achieves yet I still 
cannot pick up terms like aramana, poramatha and so on. I must admit 
that I use to learn dhamma in mandarin.(That is why my english is 
weak too). But I will try and perhaps someone can correct me if I 
misinterpret something and I can learn from here.
 
> note: i put the subject <"vs"> in quotes because i don't think the 
two are
> necessarily in opposition...i gather from recent discussions that 
members
> may agree...
> 
> for starter questions:
> 
> -- for those of you who do: what are the benefits of daily sitting 
practice?
> 
> -- for those of you who don't: what are your reasons for not 
sitting?
> 
> -- as for sitting practice: can we simply call what everybody out 
there in
> the world is doing when they sit simply:  samatha?  does anybody 
actually
> sit and "do" vipassana??  from what i've read and heard, one can 
sit and
> "do" samatha, by giving the mind a single aramana and continually 
bringing
> it back to that aramana when it wanders... since the aramana of 
vipassana
> is only limited in that it must be a paramattha dhamma appearing at 
one of
> the six dvaras, i wonder: can one also sit and "do" vipassana? or 
does
> vipassana arise in some way independent of sitting down and "trying 
to do it"?
> 
> -- i've heard it mentioned several times on the list that samatha 
can be
> condition for satipathana to arise....can anyone explain why and 
how?
> 
==========================
I'd say, with a "still mind", one can have a better focus for deeper 
vipassana practice. Of course, you can insight with focus on all 
dvaras if you have a high "still mind". 
==========================

> i'm also quite curious about some excerpts from some recent mails
> re: vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas:
> 
> kom wrote:
> 
> > For all the samatha aramana that I can remember, the condition for
> > reaching the jhana is that you be able to think (vittaka) of your
> > samatha object constantly. 
=========================
I think it should be vicara here. 
=========================
> kom/mike/kom wrote:
> 
> > > > (Samatha has pannati as
> > > > aramana), 
> > > 
> > > Always?! [by the way, if this is a categorical
> > > statement, I think it refutes many 'outside' arguments
> > > to 'our' perspective--that is, samatha vs. vipassana
> > > bhavana]
> > I am almost sure that this is.  Even the samatha development using
> > anapanasati (breath) as aramana, the samatha object is still a 
concept.
> >  There is definitely poramatha characteristics of breath, but 
they are
> > not the samatha aramana.   In fact, the breath eventually becomes 
so
> > fine (that you cannot experience its poramatha chracteristics), 
but yet
> > the person will still need an aramana to continue with the samatha
> > development.   The fact that poramatha characteristics are not
> > appearing certainly wouldn't be a hindrance!!!
> -----------------------
> does everyone agree that samatha can only have pannati as aramana? 
i need
> to review the list of objects for samatha meditation subjects in 
VSM, but i
> had thought many were chosen because they provided the meditator 
with one
> or more paramattha dhammas on which to focus...colors, touch of 
breath,
> revulsion-cetasika of corpses, the brahma vihara cetasikas; but 
then again
> there are ones which seem much more like pannati: recollection of 
the
> qualities of the Buddha would surely be conceputalization, yes? and 
the
> nimitta of any kasina seems as though it must certainly be pannati, 
but
> there is no nimitta for anapana, is there?
=============================
As I know, yes.
=============================
> 
> also: if vitakka and vicara indeed are "thinking about" the object, 
and
> are, as is said, the first jhana-factors to be abandoned as one 
progresses
> into finer material states, then once those jhana factors are 
abandoned, it
> would be impossible to "think about" the aramana, and samatha 
bhavana would
> occur without this thinking-about, yes? what would the object of 
samatha
> then be? is the object always the chosen meditation object? 
============================
As the object is just the tool, you need no more tool when you reach 
your aim. In length, you don't need object as you gain jhana.
============================
> if one moves
> the mind to contemplate the jhana factors themselves, wouldn't that
> constitute vipassana??
===========================
Yes.
===========================

Hope to learn something for you all.


Lee

 
2712 From:  
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 3:06pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear,

> Sometimes people think that it is easier to be aware of say
> rupas in the body than seeing and colour because when seeing we
> immediately think of people , tables, objects and so
> on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to
> accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc.
> through the bodysense. Sound may also seem easier as it
> falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't
> change so much.
> But I wonder about this. It is true that when we
> perceive heat or hardness we can easily know that it
> is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
> slight idea of something being there? We may not
> think of person or body but even if we think of
> hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
> still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
> who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
> element? Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
> the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
> are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
> intricate conditions making up
> sankharakkhanda. 
> So papanca can be there just as much as ever; but with the added
> delusion of believing we have none. 
> The path is not as easy as sitting down and concentrating and
> following instructions. I wish it was ( but that is tanha and
> self wishing).
========================
Perceive (through dvaras) --> "accept" by mind --> compare, 
differentiate --> perception/conceptualize --> react(feelings arise) -
-> ....
 
I try to put it in a diagrammatic way.
========================

> Jonothan wrote something a while back which is worth reading
> again:
> The distinction between samatha bhavana and vipassana
> bhavana is an area that rewards closer study.  It can
> help us to understand each of these 2 types of bhavana
> much better.  Proper understanding at an intellectual
> level is a prerequisite to correct practice (as your
> recent experience exemplifies).
> 
> Here are some points of comparison between samatha
> bhavana and vipassana bhavana-
> 
> 1.   In samatha bhavana, the goal is the attainment of
> jhana and, on death, rebirth in one of the jhana
> planes, while in vipassana bhavana the goal is the
> release from this existence and from further rebirth.
========================
As I learned, samatha can use as a tool for vipassana bhavana, which 
means we can practise samatha bhavara with the aim to practise 
vipassana in the jhanas (up to the 4th jhana, as Buddha encouraged).
======================== 

> 2.   The necessary impetus for samatha bhavana is
> seeing the danger in sense-door impressions and the
> akusala cittas conditioned by those impressions, while
> in vipassana bhavana the necessary impetus is seeing
> the unsatisfactoriness in the conditioned nature of
> this existence.
========================
When "seeing", it is no more samatha bhavana. One seeing the danger 
in sense-door impressions and the akusala cittas conditioned by those 
impressions needs certain level of panna.
======================== 

> 3.   If samatha is developed correctly, a stage will
> be reached when the sense-door impressions are shut
> out.  In vipassana bhavana, however, the sense doors,
> sense-door objects and the contact, feelings etc that
> arise dependant on the sense-door experiences are to
> be fully known (along with the mind door).
=========================
In jhanas, the bodily sense doors are shut out but not the mind door.
========================= 

> 4.   Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are
> accompanied by panna.  In samatha bhavana the panna is
> of a level that knows kusala-citta from akusala-citta
> but without seeing the essential characteristic of the
> citta.  In vipassana bhavana the panna sees realities
> (all realities) as they really are.
=========================
Samatha bhavana can/or(??) go without panna. When you are knowing 
something (such as kusala-citta or akusala citta) in the samatha 
bhavana, you are no longer "one-pointedness" and you are not doing 
samatha bhavana, rather, vipassana bhavana.
=========================
> 5.  Samatha bhavana leads to the temporary subduing of
> akusala citta (`Samatha' means peacefulness or
> tranquillity, in the sense of peacefulness from
> akusala), while vipassana bhavana leads to the final
> eradication of all kilesa including the latent
> tendencies.
=========================
Samatha(==jhana ??), as I know, is "one-pointedness" in 
concentration. It is more than calm and peaceful mind.
=========================
> 6.   The practice of samatha bhavana involves at some
> stage the citta becoming concentrated on a chosen
> object (the meditation subject), while in vipassana
> bhavana the aim is to know any paramattha dhamma that
> appears, as and when it appears.
> 
> 7.  The meditation subject in samatha bhavana is for
> the most part a concept, while in vipassana bhavana
> the object of the citta is a reality, a paramattha
> dhamma.
> 
> 8.  When samatha bhavana is developed to the level of
> jhana, the object of the jhana citta is one of the
> meditation subjects.  When vipassana bhavana is
> developed to the level of Eightfold path
> consciousness, the object of the citta is nibbana.
> 
> 9.   In samatha bhavana, unwholesome distracting
> thoughts are an obstacle to progress and must be
> overcome by directing the mind elsewhere, while in
> vipassana bhavana any reality - nama, including even
> ignorance, or rupa - may be taken as the object of the
> satipatthana citta
==========================
I thing the point is here "distracting" thoughts. Samatha practise 
can continue together as thoughts(akulsala or kusala) arise as long 
as they are not distracting or being distracted.
==========================

> 10.   The higher levels of samatha bhavana require
> very specific conditions, eg as to place, time,
> lifestyle, health even diet, to come to fruition.  In
> vipassana bhavana none of these factors are specially
> relevant;  there are no constraints on the time, place
> or circumstances in which vipassana bhavana may take
> place.
===========================
I am not sure whether higher levels of samatha bhavana require very 
specific conditions as mentioned. I'm doubt. I think, with enough 
practice and familiarity of jhana practice, the conditions will not 
affect much.
=========================== 

> These comparisons  help
> us understand how the 2 kinds of kusala differ in
> their practice and accordingly lead to 2 quite
> different goals.
> 
> I suspect that many people who teach samatha and/or
> vipassana do not clearly understand these differences,
> and so tend to confuse the two.
> 
> Jonothan
> 

Hope to hear some comments and learn from you all.

Lee

 
2713 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 4:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Bruce,

--- bruce  wrote:
> from what i've read and heard, one can sit
> and
> "do" samatha, by giving the mind a single aramana and continually
> bringing
> it back to that aramana when it wanders... since the aramana of
> vipassana
> is only limited in that it must be a paramattha dhamma appearing at
> one of
> the six dvaras, i wonder: can one also sit and "do" vipassana? or
> does
> vipassana arise in some way independent of sitting down and "trying
> to do it"?
Satipatthana is the citta arising with panna to cognize the poramattha
aramana as it actually is: just dhatu, arising because of conditions. 
When there are conditions for Satipathana to arise, it arises, whether
or not you like it to arise it or not.  When there are no conditions
for satipathana to arise, it doesn't arise, whether or not you like it
to arise it or not.   It can happen anywhere, in any posture, and at
any time.  You can be almost asleep, you can be taking a shower, you
can be eating, while you are developing samatha bhavana, while you are
giving dana, while you are getting angry, while you are near death.   I
think the list is endless...

> -- i've heard it mentioned several times on the list that samatha can
> be
> condition for satipathana to arise....can anyone explain why and how?
I think in order to explain this, you will need a pretty detailed
knowledge of Patthana.  All I know is, jhana citta and associated
factors can be the aramana pacaya (condition as aramana) for
Satipathana.  How Jhana citta can condition satipatthana citta in some
other ways is beyond me.

> i know vitakka and vicara are usually translated as "applied thought"
> and
> "sustained thought", but i never understood these as meaning
> conceptualizing or ruminating *about* the object, which i equate with
> papanca; i thought that these terms referred to the, for lack of
> better
> terms, "movement" of the mind toward and then "continued contact" of
> the
> mind with the aramana...
I think your understandings are closer to the meanings than the word
"thought" convey.  Vitaka and Vicara also arises with the Satipathana,
and obviously, they have paramatha dhamma as aramana.   The English
word thought virtually conveys pannati to me.  

Here's an explanation (not mine) from Khun Amara's website:

1. Vitakka-cetasika is the cetasika that approaches or applies itself
to the arammana that the phassa-cetasika is in contact with.  The
vitakka-cetasika arises with 55 cetasika: 44 kamavacara-citta and 11
pathamajjhana-citta, exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the
dutiyajjhana, tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana.  The
vitakka-cetasika would approach or applies itself to the arammana
according to the state of the citta and cetasika it arises with. The
vitakka-cetasika that approaches the arammana is like the feet of the
world because it makes the world move forward (with the citta arising
and evolving) according to the specific vitakka-cetasika. 

2. Vicara-cetasika is the cetasika that supports and follows vitakka. 
No matter what the vitakka approaches, the vicara would support and
follow.  The Vicara-cetasika arises with 66 citta comprising 44
kamavacara-citta, 11 pathamajjhana-citta and 11 dutiyajjhana, exempting
the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and
pancamajjhana.  Any citta with vitakka-cetasika arising concurrently
would also have vicara-cetasika arising with it exempting 11 citta
which have only vicara-cetasika without vitakka-cetasika arising
concurrently, namely the 11 dutiyajjhana-citta. 

I have also heard the analogy of the Vitaka being the gong of a bell
when it is first struck, and Vicara being the echo of it.  Vitaka's
characteristics are more coarse than Vicara.  

> also: if vitakka and vicara indeed are "thinking about" the object,
> and
> are, as is said, the first jhana-factors to be abandoned as one
> progresses
> into finer material states, then once those jhana factors are
> abandoned, it
> would be impossible to "think about" the aramana, and samatha bhavana
> would
> occur without this thinking-about, yes? 
I have also heard (from Mirinda panha) the explanation to the following
effect.  In the beginning when one begins to develop Samatha, the citta
is unskillful and needs to do a lot of work in order to hold on to the
aramana.  However, once it becomes very skilled, it doesn't need to
work as hard.  The analogy is like learning how to drive.  In the
beginning, it takes efforts and concentration to drive.   After some
years, when you become more skillful, you don't need to try as hard.

> the mind to contemplate the jhana factors themselves, wouldn't that
> constitute vipassana??
If the citta arising with panna to cognize the jhana factors as they
truly are, the answer is yes.

Sorry I couldn't answer your other questions.  I hope others will
explain more (Roberts, Jonathan, Sarah, Khun Amara, Mike, Jim.) 
Anumoddhana to all.

kom


 
2714 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 4:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear Lee,

---  wrote:
> > Jonothan wrote something a while back which is worth reading
> > again:
> > The distinction between samatha bhavana and vipassana
> > bhavana is an area that rewards closer study.  It can
> > help us to understand each of these 2 types of bhavana
> > much better.  Proper understanding at an intellectual
> > level is a prerequisite to correct practice (as your
> > recent experience exemplifies).
> > 
> > Here are some points of comparison between samatha
> > bhavana and vipassana bhavana-
> > 
> > 1.   In samatha bhavana, the goal is the attainment of
> > jhana and, on death, rebirth in one of the jhana
> > planes, while in vipassana bhavana the goal is the
> > release from this existence and from further rebirth.
> ========================
>LEE: As I learned, samatha can use as a tool for vipassana
bhavana,
> which 
> means we can practise samatha bhavara with the aim to practise
> 
> vipassana in the jhanas (up to the 4th jhana, as Buddha
> encouraged).
> ======================== 

Yes, people do teach many things these days.
 Even in ancient times there were not so many who could attain
Jhana. In the 'Visuddhimagga' (XII, 8) it explains how difficult
it is to attain parikamma samadhi (preliminary stage), upacara
samadhi (access concentration), let alone attain Jhana. Even if
jhana does appear it is liable to recede at the slightest upset.
The idea of using it as a tool is all tied up with ideas of
control.
_________ 
> > 2.   The necessary impetus for samatha bhavana is
> > seeing the danger in sense-door impressions and the
> > akusala cittas conditioned by those impressions, while
> > in vipassana bhavana the necessary impetus is seeing
> > the unsatisfactoriness in the conditioned nature of
> > this existence.
> ========================
> LEE:When "seeing", it is no more samatha bhavana. One seeing
the
> danger 
> in sense-door impressions and the akusala cittas conditioned
> by those 
> impressions needs certain level of panna.

 ======================== 
this is very unclear. What do you mean?
___________
> > 3.   If samatha is developed correctly, a stage will
> > be reached when the sense-door impressions are shut
> > out.  In vipassana bhavana, however, the sense doors,
> > sense-door objects and the contact, feelings etc that
> > arise dependant on the sense-door experiences are to
> > be fully known (along with the mind door).
> =========================
> LEE:In jhanas, the bodily sense doors are shut out but not the
> mind door.
> ========================= 

Yes, as implied by Jonothon.
______________________
> 
> > 4.   Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are
> > accompanied by panna.  In samatha bhavana the panna is
> > of a level that knows kusala-citta from akusala-citta
> > but without seeing the essential characteristic of the
> > citta.  In vipassana bhavana the panna sees realities
> > (all realities) as they really are.
> =========================
> Samatha bhavana can/or(??) go without panna. When you are
> knowing 
> something (such as kusala-citta or akusala citta) in the
> samatha 
> bhavana, you are no longer "one-pointedness" and you are not
> doing 
> samatha bhavana, rather, vipassana bhavana.
_______________

I suggest you consider carefully before disagreeing here. Think
again and if you wish I will discuss it further.


> =========================
> > 5.  Samatha bhavana leads to the temporary subduing of
> > akusala citta (`Samatha' means peacefulness or
> > tranquillity, in the sense of peacefulness from
> > akusala), while vipassana bhavana leads to the final
> > eradication of all kilesa including the latent
> > tendencies.
> =========================
> Samatha(==jhana ??), as I know, is "one-pointedness" in 
> concentration. It is more than calm and peaceful mind.
> =========================
____
miccha-samadhi (wrong concentration) also is one pointed.
 But Jonothon was referring to correct devoplement of samattha.
Tranquility is one aspect, another is one-pointedness.
______________________


> ==========================
> 
> > 10.   The higher levels of samatha bhavana require
> > very specific conditions, eg as to place, time,
> > lifestyle, health even diet, to come to fruition.  In
> > vipassana bhavana none of these factors are specially
> > relevant;  there are no constraints on the time, place
> > or circumstances in which vipassana bhavana may take
> > place.
> ===========================
>LEE: I am not sure whether higher levels of samatha bhavana
require
> very 
> specific conditions as mentioned. I'm doubt. I think, with
> enough 
> practice and familiarity of jhana practice, the conditions
> will not 
> affect much.
> =========================== 
Really? There were laymen such as Citta (I think that was his
name)who had mastery of Jhana, that is true. However, he was an
anagami - he had no lobha or aversion to sense objects; it makes
things a little easier. 
For almost everyone it needs special conditions: Visuddhimagga
III29 it says before beginning to develop samattha one should
"severe any of the ten impediments". These are 
1dwelling
2.family
3students
4building
5travel
6.kin
7affliction
8.books
9. gain
the last one is supernormal powers but this is an impediment
only for vipassana not for samattha. 
Robert


 
2715 From: bruce   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 4:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  kom, thanks *so* much....so vitakka and vicara are both cetasika...this
makes everthing so much clearer! many many thanks...

i have to study the terminology quite bit more, re: all the cetasika you
refer to in your explanations of vitakka/vicara....also, you refer to khun
amara's website: is that dhammastudy.com or is it somewhere else? either
way, if you could send the url for the page on which these descriptions
appear, i would be very grateful...i have a feeling there is a lot i can
learn wherever this information comes from...

there are so many good teachers in this group, i'm at a loss to express my
gratitude...

big anumodana 
bruce

At 00:27 2001/01/06 -0800, you wrote:
> Dear Bruce,
> 
> --- bruce  wrote:
> > from what i've read and heard, one can sit
> > and
> > "do" samatha, by giving the mind a single aramana and continually
> > bringing
> > it back to that aramana when it wanders... since the aramana of
> > vipassana
> > is only limited in that it must be a paramattha dhamma appearing at
> > one of
> > the six dvaras, i wonder: can one also sit and "do" vipassana? or
> > does
> > vipassana arise in some way independent of sitting down and "trying
> > to do it"?
> Satipatthana is the citta arising with panna to cognize the poramattha
> aramana as it actually is: just dhatu, arising because of conditions. 
> When there are conditions for Satipathana to arise, it arises, whether
> or not you like it to arise it or not.  When there are no conditions
> for satipathana to arise, it doesn't arise, whether or not you like it
> to arise it or not.   It can happen anywhere, in any posture, and at
> any time.  You can be almost asleep, you can be taking a shower, you
> can be eating, while you are developing samatha bhavana, while you are
> giving dana, while you are getting angry, while you are near death.   I
> think the list is endless...
> 
> > -- i've heard it mentioned several times on the list that samatha can
> > be
> > condition for satipathana to arise....can anyone explain why and how?
> I think in order to explain this, you will need a pretty detailed
> knowledge of Patthana.  All I know is, jhana citta and associated
> factors can be the aramana pacaya (condition as aramana) for
> Satipathana.  How Jhana citta can condition satipatthana citta in some
> other ways is beyond me.
> 
> > i know vitakka and vicara are usually translated as "applied thought"
> > and
> > "sustained thought", but i never understood these as meaning
> > conceptualizing or ruminating *about* the object, which i equate with
> > papanca; i thought that these terms referred to the, for lack of
> > better
> > terms, "movement" of the mind toward and then "continued contact" of
> > the
> > mind with the aramana...
> I think your understandings are closer to the meanings than the word
> "thought" convey.  Vitaka and Vicara also arises with the Satipathana,
> and obviously, they have paramatha dhamma as aramana.   The English
> word thought virtually conveys pannati to me.  
> 
> Here's an explanation (not mine) from Khun Amara's website:
> 
> 1. Vitakka-cetasika is the cetasika that approaches or applies itself
> to the arammana that the phassa-cetasika is in contact with.  The
> vitakka-cetasika arises with 55 cetasika: 44 kamavacara-citta and 11
> pathamajjhana-citta, exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the
> dutiyajjhana, tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana.  The
> vitakka-cetasika would approach or applies itself to the arammana
> according to the state of the citta and cetasika it arises with. The
> vitakka-cetasika that approaches the arammana is like the feet of the
> world because it makes the world move forward (with the citta arising
> and evolving) according to the specific vitakka-cetasika. 
> 
> 2. Vicara-cetasika is the cetasika that supports and follows vitakka. 
> No matter what the vitakka approaches, the vicara would support and
> follow.  The Vicara-cetasika arises with 66 citta comprising 44
> kamavacara-citta, 11 pathamajjhana-citta and 11 dutiyajjhana, exempting
> the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and
> pancamajjhana.  Any citta with vitakka-cetasika arising concurrently
> would also have vicara-cetasika arising with it exempting 11 citta
> which have only vicara-cetasika without vitakka-cetasika arising
> concurrently, namely the 11 dutiyajjhana-citta. 
> 
> I have also heard the analogy of the Vitaka being the gong of a bell
> when it is first struck, and Vicara being the echo of it.  Vitaka's
> characteristics are more coarse than Vicara.  
> 
> > also: if vitakka and vicara indeed are "thinking about" the object,
> > and
> > are, as is said, the first jhana-factors to be abandoned as one
> > progresses
> > into finer material states, then once those jhana factors are
> > abandoned, it
> > would be impossible to "think about" the aramana, and samatha bhavana
> > would
> > occur without this thinking-about, yes? 
> I have also heard (from Mirinda panha) the explanation to the following
> effect.  In the beginning when one begins to develop Samatha, the citta
> is unskillful and needs to do a lot of work in order to hold on to the
> aramana.  However, once it becomes very skilled, it doesn't need to
> work as hard.  The analogy is like learning how to drive.  In the
> beginning, it takes efforts and concentration to drive.   After some
> years, when you become more skillful, you don't need to try as hard.
> 
> > the mind to contemplate the jhana factors themselves, wouldn't that
> > constitute vipassana??
> If the citta arising with panna to cognize the jhana factors as they
> truly are, the answer is yes.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't answer your other questions.  I hope others will
> explain more (Roberts, Jonathan, Sarah, Khun Amara, Mike, Jim.) 
> Anumoddhana to all.
> 
> kom
> 


 
2717 From:  
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 6:45pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear Robert,

Thanks for correct me.

> Yes, people do teach many things these days.
>  Even in ancient times there were not so many who could attain
> Jhana. In the 'Visuddhimagga' (XII, 8) it explains how difficult
> it is to attain parikamma samadhi (preliminary stage), upacara
> samadhi (access concentration), let alone attain Jhana. Even if
> jhana does appear it is liable to recede at the slightest upset.
> The idea of using it as a tool is all tied up with ideas of
> control.
_________ 
I think to attain jhana, it needs supportive factors like sila etc.
_________

> > LEE:When "seeing", it is no more samatha bhavana. One seeing
> the
> > danger 
> > in sense-door impressions and the akusala cittas conditioned
> > by those 
> > impressions needs certain level of panna.
> 
>  ======================== 
> this is very unclear. What do you mean?
___________
I mean, while practising samatha, it shouldn't alter the 
concentration away from the object. Once it alters, it is no longer 
stay tune to the method. And I refer "seeing" as "insighting". 
___________


> > > 4.   Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are
> > > accompanied by panna.  In samatha bhavana the panna is
> > > of a level that knows kusala-citta from akusala-citta
> > > but without seeing the essential characteristic of the
> > > citta.  In vipassana bhavana the panna sees realities
> > > (all realities) as they really are.
> > =========================
> > Samatha bhavana can/or(??) go without panna. When you are
> > knowing 
> > something (such as kusala-citta or akusala citta) in the
> > samatha 
> > bhavana, you are no longer "one-pointedness" and you are not
> > doing 
> > samatha bhavana, rather, vipassana bhavana.
> _______________
> 
> Robert:I suggest you consider carefully before disagreeing here. 
Think
> again and if you wish I will discuss it further.
_________________
I am not really disagree here. Rather I try to state my understanding 
on this. On the other hand, I do agree that it is one of the Seven 
Factors of Enlightenment knowing kusala-citta from akusala-citta, and 
Seven Factors of Enlightenment are closely associate with jhana. 
Looking forward for your further discussion.
_________________ 

 =========================
> > Samatha(==jhana ??), as I know, is "one-pointedness" in 
> > concentration. It is more than calm and peaceful mind.
> > =========================
> ____
> Robert: miccha-samadhi (wrong concentration) also is one pointed.
>  But Jonothon was referring to correct devoplement of samattha.
> Tranquility is one aspect, another is one-pointedness.
______________________
I think samatha is indetermined. When you developed samatha, calm, 
peace and tranquility are gained. Whether it is miccha samadhi or 
not, I think, it is driven by the miccha ditthi or samma ditthi.

"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & 
requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these 
seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right 
action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is 
called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite 
conditions." 
-- MN 117 

_______________________

> Really? There were laymen such as Citta (I think that was his
> name)who had mastery of Jhana, that is true. However, he was an
> anagami - he had no lobha or aversion to sense objects; it makes
> things a little easier. 
> For almost everyone it needs special conditions: Visuddhimagga
> III29 it says before beginning to develop samattha one should
> "severe any of the ten impediments". These are 
> 1dwelling
> 2.family
> 3students
> 4building
> 5travel
> 6.kin
> 7affliction
> 8.books
> 9. gain
> the last one is supernormal powers but this is an impediment
> only for vipassana not for samattha. 
> Robert
______________
As I mentioned above, supportive factors are needed, such as the 
first 7 of Noble Eightfold Path. I think, somewhere in VSM, mentioned 
the ways (5 ways??) to master the jhanas and one is advised to master 
the lower jhana before he further on.
______________


I might have a different understanding of the samatha and vipassana 
bhavana due to the different interpretation or approah of suttas or 
texts in mandarin, or perhaps my misinterpretation. If it is the 
later, please correct me. Sorry for any mistakes.

My mind is almost blocked now. I shall continue this later.


Lee

 
2718 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 7:37pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  ---  "amara chay" wrote:
> 
> > I assume that if he ordains he
> > will be a monk for the remainder of his life and I think it 
unlikely that he
> > will ordain and die on the same day.
> 
> > An example of a householder who became an arahant was Yasa (Vinaya
> > Mahaavagga I.7) whom the Buddha ordained shortly afterwards and 
who
> > continued to live on. But in the case of Baahiya (Udaana I.10), 
the Buddha
> > did not grant him the going forth due to his past kamma. So 
instead of going
> > forth he was killed by a mad cow shortly after he reached 
> arahatship. This
> > last example suggests that a householder/layperson may not be able 
> to pick
> > and choose which alternative will actually take place.



Dear Jim, 

Thanks for pointing me to the passages, I have reread them at the 
foundation today, he had indeed attained arahantship as he listedned 
to the Buddha, before he asked to be ordained.  We also found the 
passages about a king, and also a minister who also died, or entered 
parinibbana, on the day they attained.  But so far none for the 
seven day period, just as you said.  

Have also looked up some more passages describing the bhaya-nana, in 
case anyone is interested, in the Khuddakanikaya Patisambhidamagga, 
where the description is of the knowledge of the harm realities that 
arise and fall away also, not some bone chilling gripping fear full  
of akusala.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, anumodana as always,

Amara

 
2719 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 7:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear lee,
thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, we are getting all these 
interesting and difficult posts (you, bruce, dan) just at a time
when it is inconvenient for me to spend time on them. 
I'll just post this brief extract from Survey of paramattha
dhammas by Sujin boriharnwanaket  The url is;
http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat7.html
Have a read (of the entire article - not just this extract)- and
then it will be easier to discuss points. Suffice to say
samattha is not as easy as is sometimes thought. There are also
other books (about 10 you can download for free) that you should
have a look at on www.zolag.co.uk


Samatha-bhavana is not the practice of samadhi.  Samadhi is the
reality that is steadfast in the arammana which is the
ekaggata-cetasika that arises with all citta.  When they are
obsessed with the arammana over long periods of time, the
characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika would appear as samadhi, or
unwaveringly steadfast to a certain arammana.  The
ekaggata-cetasika that arise with akusala-citta are
miccha-samadhi.  Those that arise with kusala-citta are
samma-samadhi. 

 To practice samadhi so that the citta is engrossed with a
certain arammana for long periods of time is miccha-samadhi when
not composed with panna because at that moment there is pleasure
in having that citta steadfast with only one arammana. Without
panna there cannot be knowledge of the differences between
lobha-mula-citta and kusala-citta because the lobha-mula-citta
and the kamavacara-kusala-citta have the same kind of vedana
arising concurrently with them: 

 The 8 lobha-mula-citta have 4 upekkha-vedana and 4
somanassa-vedana arising concurrently. 

 The 8 kamavacara-citta have 4 upekkha-vedana and 4
somanassa-vedana arising concurrently. 

 Therefore any instant that upekkha-vedana or somanassa-vedana
arises it is difficult to know whether the citta is
lobha-mula-citta or mahakusala-citta when it is neutral, not
irritated or when there is somanassa, pleased and happy. 

 The differences between the 8 lobha-mula-citta and the 8
mahakusala-citta are with the lobha-mula-citta there are
akusala-cetasika concurrently arising while with the
mahakusala-citta there are sobhana-cetasika.  The
akusala-cetasika that manifest the differences between the
lobha-mula-citta and mahakusala-citta is the miccha-ditthi,
wrong view and the obhana-cetasika that manifest the differences
between the kusala-citta and lobha-mula-citta is the
samma-ditthi, which is panna-cetasika.  Therefore the
differences between the 8 lobha-mula-citta and the 8
mahakusala-citta are 

 Of the 8 lobha-mula-citta, 4 arise with ditthi-cetasika and 4
without. 
 Of the 8 mahakusala-citta, 4 arise with panna-cetasika and 4
without. 

 Therefore those who wish to develop samatha-bhavana would have
to know the differences between lobha-mula-citta and
kusala-citta otherwise they would practice samadhi with
lobha-mula-citta as miccha-samadhi since it is not composed with
panna. 

 Generally those who practice samadhi do not want the citta to
be agitated, irritated or troubled with different events.  They
are pleased to have the citta steadfast in an arammana without
knowing that while there is still need for citta to be absorbed
in the desired arammana there is no mahakusala-nana-sampayutta. 

  To develop samatha-bhavana is to develop
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta.  Those who wish to develop
samatha-bhavana are those with panna to see the harm of both
lobha and dosa, not only to see the harm of dosa-mula-citta
which are only worries and troubles.  Those who do not know
kilesa and do not see the harm of lobha would not develop
samatha-bhavana.  Therefore those who develop samatha-bhavana
would be straightforward with the panna to see the harm of lobha
and have sati-sampajanna to know the different instants of
lobha-mula-citta as opposed to mahakusala-nana-sampayutta to be
able to develop further mahakusala-nana-sampayutta until
akusala-citta cannot interpose as upacara-samadhi then attain
appana-samadhi or the pathama-jhana-kusala-citta comprising 5
principal elements of jhana as follows: vitakka, vicara, piti,
sukha and ekaggata. 

 To develop samatha-bhavana to increase
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta until it becomes bases for
pathama-jhana-kusala-citta, which is rupavacara-kusala is very
difficult to achieve since it requires a person who is not
abhabba-puggala, or one who would not be able to attain
jhana-citta or lokuttara-citta even having developed
samatha-bhavana or vipassana-bhavana.  Those who are
bhabba-puggala, or who, having developed samatha- or
vipassana-bhavana, would be able to attain jhana-citta or
lokuttara-citta, must be people who 

 1. are without vipaka as obstacles or whose patisandhi-citta
must be ti-hetuka with panna-cetasika arising concurrently with.


  2. are without kamma as obstacles or have never performed one
of the 5 anantariyakamma, which are obstacles to heaven, magga
and bala.  The 5 anantariyakamma are matricide, patricide,
arahanticide, causing contusion to the Buddha and destroying the
unity of the Sangha to perform sangha-kamma together. 

 3. are without kilesa as obstacles or do not have the 3
niyata-miccha-ditthi, namely natthika-ditthi, ahetuka-ditthi and
akiriya-ditthi. 

 Even when the patisandhi-citta is ti-hetuka, composed with
panna but if one is pleased with sight, sound, smell, taste,
bodysense contact without seeing the harm one would not think of
attenuating the pleasure with the development of sila and
bhavana.  Therefore to develop samatha-bhavana to the level of
upacara-samadhi and appana-samadhi is not easy.  Just to be
preoccupied with a chosen arammana does not make it
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta that would enable one to attain
upacara-samadhi.  If one mistakes the lobha-mula-citta as
mahakusala, one would believe that the various nimitta that the
citta compose as images of hell, heaven, locations and events
are upacara-samadhi and appana-samadhi, which are distinct
levels of jhana-citta. 

Therefore samatha-bhavana is a very intricate matter and must be
studied to really understand. 

  


---  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Thanks for correct me.
> 
> > Yes, people do teach many things these days.
> >  Even in ancient times there were not so many who could
> attain
> > Jhana. In the 'Visuddhimagga' (XII, 8) it explains how
> difficult
> > it is to attain parikamma samadhi (preliminary stage),
> upacara
> > samadhi (access concentration), let alone attain Jhana. Even
> if
> > jhana does appear it is liable to recede at the slightest
> upset.
> > The idea of using it as a tool is all tied up with ideas of
> > control.
> _________ 
> I think to attain jhana, it needs supportive factors like sila
> etc.
> _________
> 
> > > LEE:When "seeing", it is no more samatha bhavana. One
> seeing
> > the
> > > danger 
> > > in sense-door impressions and the akusala cittas
> conditioned
> > > by those 
> > > impressions needs certain level of panna.
> > 
> >  ======================== 
> > this is very unclear. What do you mean?
> ___________
> I mean, while practising samatha, it shouldn't alter the 
> concentration away from the object. Once it alters, it is no
> longer 
> stay tune to the method. And I refer "seeing" as "insighting".
> 
> ___________
> 
> 
> > > > 4.   Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are
> > > > accompanied by panna.  In samatha bhavana the panna is
> > > > of a level that knows kusala-citta from akusala-citta
> > > > but without seeing the essential characteristic of the
> > > > citta.  In vipassana bhavana the panna sees realities
> > > > (all realities) as they really are.
> > > =========================
> > > Samatha bhavana can/or(??) go without panna. When you are
> > > knowing 
> > > something (such as kusala-citta or akusala citta) in the
> > > samatha 
> > > bhavana, you are no longer "one-pointedness" and you are
> not
> > > doing 
> > > samatha bhavana, rather, vipassana bhavana.
> > _______________
> > 
> > Robert:I suggest you consider carefully before disagreeing
> here. 
> Think
> > again and if you wish I will discuss it further.
> _________________
> I am not really disagree here. Rather I try to state my
> understanding 
> on this. On the other hand, I do agree that it is one of the
> Seven 
> Factors of Enlightenment knowing kusala-citta from
> akusala-citta, and 
> Seven Factors of Enlightenment are closely associate with
> jhana. 
> Looking forward for your further discussion.
> _________________ 
> 
>  =========================
> > > Samatha(==jhana ??), as I know, is "one-pointedness" in 
> > > concentration. It is more than calm and peaceful mind.
> > > =========================
> > ____
> > Robert: miccha-samadhi (wrong concentration) also is one
> pointed.
> >  But Jonothon was referring to correct devoplement of
> samattha.
> > Tranquility is one aspect, another is one-pointedness.
> ______________________
> I think samatha is indetermined. When you developed samatha,
> calm, 
> peace and tranquility are gained. Whether it is miccha samadhi
> or 
> not, I think, it is driven by the miccha ditthi or samma
> ditthi.
> 
> "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its
> supports & 
> requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with
> these 
> seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech,
> right 
> action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness --
> is 
> called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite
> 
> conditions." 
> -- MN 117 
> 
> _______________________
> 
> > Really? There were laymen such as Citta (I think that was
> his
> > name)who had mastery of Jhana, that is true. However, he was
> an
> > anagami - he had no lobha or aversion to sense objects; it
> makes
> > things a little easier. 
> > For almost everyone it needs special conditions:
> Visuddhimagga
> > III29 it says before beginning to develop samattha one
> should
> > "severe any of the ten impediments". These are 
> > 1dwelling
> > 2.family
> > 3students
> > 4building
> > 5travel
> > 6.kin
> > 7affliction
> > 8.books
> > 9. gain
> > the last one is supernormal powers but this is an impediment
> > only for vipassana not for samattha. 
> > Robert
> ______________
> As I mentioned above, supportive factors are needed, such as
> the 
> first 7 of Noble Eightfold Path. I think, somewhere in VSM,
> mentioned 
> the ways (5 ways??) to master the jhanas and one is advised to
> master 
> the lower jhana before he further on.
> ______________
> 
> 
> I might have a different understanding of the samatha and
> vipassana 
> bhavana due to the different interpretation or approah of
> suttas or 
> texts in mandarin, or perhaps my misinterpretation. If it is
> the 
> later, please correct me. Sorry for any mistakes.
> 
> My mind is almost blocked now. I shall continue this later.
> 
> 
> Lee
> 



 
2720 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 7:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Amara,
I am always interested in commentaries especially as this hasn't
been translated into english. There is so much confusion about
the signs indicative of vipassana these days. 
--- amara chay  wrote:
> ---  "amara chay"
>  
> wrote:
> > 
> > > I assume that if he ordains he
> > > will be a monk for the remainder of his life and I think
> it 
> unlikely 
> > that he
> > > will ordain and die on the same day.
> > 
> > > An example of a householder who became an arahant was Yasa
> (Vinaya
> > > Mahaavagga I.7) whom the Buddha ordained shortly
> afterwards and 
> who
> > > continued to live on. But in the case of Baahiya (Udaana
> I.10), 
> the 
> > Buddha
> > > did not grant him the going forth due to his past kamma.
> So 
> instead 
> > of going
> > > forth he was killed by a mad cow shortly after he reached 
> > arahatship. This
> > > last example suggests that a householder/layperson may not
> be able 
> > to pick
> > > and choose which alternative will actually take place.
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Jim, 
> 
> Thanks for pointing me to the passages, I have reread them at
> the 
> foundation today, he had indeed attained arahantship as he
> listedned 
> to the Buddha, before he asked to be ordained.  We also found
> the 
> passages about a king, and also a minister who also died, or
> entered 
> parinibbana, on the day they attained.  But so far none for
> the 
> seven day period, just as you said.  
> 
> Have also looked up some more passages describing the
> bhaya-nana, in 
> case anyone is interested, in the Khuddakanikaya
> Patisambhidamagga, 
> where the description is of the knowledge of the harm
> realities that 
> arise and fall away also, not some bone chilling gripping fear
> full  
> of akusala.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing your knowledge, anumodana as always,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
2721 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  > I am always interested in commentaries especially as this hasn't
> been translated into english. There is so much confusion about
> the signs indicative of vipassana these days. 


Dear Robert,

I hadn't realized that.  No wonder!  

Lots to keep Jim occupied with, then!  

Amara

 
2722 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 8:27pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > Panatti is far more than just thinking about something.
> Even when we are experiencing paramattha dhammas, there are
> always moments of pannatti coming in. One may be feeling very
> concentrated and calm, no obvious thinking, and yet still heaps
> of pannatti and papanca. 


Dear Robert, 

Through which dvara does pannatti arise?

Amara

 
2723 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 8:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear amara, I am busy at the moment. Why the question?
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> > Panatti is far more than just thinking about something.
> > Even when we are experiencing paramattha dhammas, there are
> > always moments of pannatti coming in. One may be feeling
> very
> > concentrated and calm, no obvious thinking, and yet still
> heaps
> > of pannatti and papanca. 
> 
> 
> Dear Robert, 
> 
> Through which dvara does pannatti arise?
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2724 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
> First of all, though I have followed hundreds of achieves yet I still 
> cannot pick up terms like aramana, poramatha and so on. 


Dear Lee,

There is a dhamma glossary in the <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> 
website, with practically all the terms discussed here, although it 
is still under revision for booklet printing.

I hope it will help a little,

Amara

 
2725 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > Dear amara, I am busy at the moment. Why the question?


Because pannatti could only be experienced through the mind dvara.  
What is it but thoughts, when the citta thinks about some aramana 
that is not paramatthadhamma?

Amara


> > 
> > > Panatti is far more than just thinking about something.
> > > Even when we are experiencing paramattha dhammas, there are
> > > always moments of pannatti coming in. One may be feeling
> > very
> > > concentrated and calm, no obvious thinking, and yet still
> > heaps
> > > of pannatti and papanca. 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Robert, 
> > 
> > Through which dvara does pannatti arise?
> > 
> > Amara
> > 

 
 
2726 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Ok, I am still not entirely sure why you asked the question. But
 will assume you found something wrong with my earlier
statement. (I am hopeless at anything cryptic- a real dunce). 
I will elaborate as what I wrote was not so clear and when it
comes to Dhamma clarity is all important.
> >I wrote " Panatti is far more than just thinking about
something.
> > > > Even when we are experiencing paramattha dhammas, there
> are
> > > > always moments of pannatti coming in. One may be feeling
> > > very
> > > > concentrated and calm, no obvious thinking, and yet
> still
> > > heaps
> > > > of pannatti and papanca. "
> > > 

According to the ancient commentaries (see xxvii dhatukatha) in
the wink of an eye the mind elements arise and cease a trillion
times. My point in the statement above was that we can, for
instance, be aware of hardness and think that we are
experiencing it as it really is.  But in fact it has already
passed away and in between the moments when there was cittas
taking actual paramattha dhammas as object there must also have
been  moments when pannati was the object. This doesn't mean
just thinking in words. This can be  hidden and one may be quite
sure that there was only paramattha dhamma been experienced. One
is overestimating ones knowledge. I am not sure if that was
where your  question lay?
robert


--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Dear amara, I am busy at the moment. Why the question?
> 
> 
> Because pannatti could only be experienced through the mind
> dvara.  
> What is it but thoughts, when the citta thinks about some
> aramana 
> that is not paramatthadhamma?
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> > > > > > Dear Robert, 
> > > 
> > > Through which dvara does pannatti arise?
> > > 
> > > Amara
> > > 



 
2727 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 9:59pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > According to the ancient commentaries (see xxvii dhatukatha) in
> the wink of an eye the mind elements arise and cease a trillion
> times. My point in the statement above was that we can, for
> instance, be aware of hardness and think that we are
> experiencing it as it really is.  But in fact it has already
> passed away and in between the moments when there was cittas
> taking actual paramattha dhammas as object there must also have
> been  moments when pannati was the object. This doesn't mean
> just thinking in words. This can be  hidden and one may be quite
> sure that there was only paramattha dhamma been experienced. One
> is overestimating ones knowledge. I am not sure if that was
> where your  question lay?
> robert


So long as you realize all this is papanca also, only the experience 
of the characteristics of realities as they appear at each instant 
contributes to the accumulation of panna, not all this analysis which 
is all pannatti.

Amara


> --- amara chay  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Dear amara, I am busy at the moment. Why the question?
> > 
> > 
> > Because pannatti could only be experienced through the mind
> > dvara.  
> > What is it but thoughts, when the citta thinks about some
> > aramana 
> > that is not paramatthadhamma?
> > 
> > Amara
> > 
> > 
> > > > > > > Dear Robert, 
> > > > 
> > > > Through which dvara does pannatti arise?
> > > > 
> > > > Amara
> > > > 


 
2728 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:05pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > So long as you realize all this is papanca also, only the experience 
> of the characteristics of realities as they appear at each instant 
> contributes to the accumulation of panna, not all this analysis 
which 
> is all pannatti.


I meant of course panna on the patipatti level, not the theoretical 
level.

Amara

 
2729 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:10pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Oh Amara! You DO have a way with words! On this forum, I sometimes see 
disparagement of meditation teachers who emphasize practice over 
reading, but your post is the first to go so far as to call the Ven. 
Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings "silly." I couldn't help but chuckle! 

As S. Suzuki (a silly Zen master) wrote: "You should be rather 
grateful for the weeds you have in your mind, because eventually they 
will enrich your practice." I realize that I cannot force you to 
understand what I was trying to convey in our discussion about 
bhaya-nana, and I thank you for so vividly pointing out that weedy 
tendency of mine to try to "convince" people of things. Another weed I 
have that you helped bring to light is that I often speak before I 
have my words properly lined up. For example, I wrote about the "fear" 
as "dosa" without first thinking about what "dosa" means. This is a 
very dangerous thing for a Pali neophyte to do! When I read your 
'silly' comment, I found myself reflecting on bhaya-nana in terms of 
paticca-sammupada and realized that I probably used the word "dosa" 
incorrectly. Let me explain: There moments when "formations...appear 
to him in the form of a great terror, as lions, tigers, 
leopards,...etc., appear to a timid man who wants to live in 
peace."[Vism. XXI, 29]. Buddhagosa goes on to explain how this is the 
point where the bhaya-nana arises and how the bhaya-nana fears not 
(thanks, Robert, for the apt citation). Preceding the bhaya-nana, 
though, there is a very brief moment of real terror that is forcefully 
shattered by the arising of the insight of bhaya-nana. Is it "dosa"? 
Probably not. "Dosa" would imply an unwise response to the sensation, 
which clearly is not what happens as conditions ripen for the arising 
of bhaya-nana. I believe I misused "dosa," but the 'fear' is still 
there for an instant. It doesn't register in the mind as fear, though, 
before the wisdom arises that "these formations are indeed fearful." 
In review, the mind recognizes that there was 'fear' for an instant, 
but the bhaya is gone in a flash and replaced by bhaya-nana. It is 
indeed very difficult to describe, but you are right that "dosa" does 
not seem to fit. The Visudhimagga description is wonderful in what it 
covers, but it pretty much skips the details of the transition between 
the arising of bhanga-nana and the arising of bhaya-nana. On the other 
hand, would there be any point in going into that level of detail? The 
book is already very long, and reading in detail about how wisdom 
arises does not do much to help that wisdom arise experientially. The 
concise and general descriptions, on the other hand, can be helpful.

Thanks for all your help, Amara, and may your own weeds someday enrich 
your practice as I hope my own weeds will enrich mine. Anumodana.

 
2730 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:23pm
Subject: Three types of wisdom

 
  Vibhanga discusses a number of different types of wisdom, including 
sutamayapanna (wisdom through hearing), cintamayapanna (wisdom through 
thinking), and a number of types of wisdom arising in the course of 
practice as a result of direct experience, which I will refer to as 
'bhavanamayapanna' (I can't find that exact term in Vibhanga, but I've 
heard it used by others, and it works well). 

SUTAMAYAPANNA
Sutamayapanna is the wisdom that we attain by hearing wise people 
expound the Dhamma or by reading scripture. This type of wisdom is 
wonderful because of its reliability and depth. We consider it 
reliable because of faith in the source and because it has been 
extensively tested empirically in practice. One drawback of this type 
of wisdom is that it is necessarily limited. As our Buddha stated, all 
that he could tell us amounts to no more than a handful of leaves in a 
forest full of trees. The topography of the mind is enormously complex 
and detailed, and by comparison the Tipitaka is quite brief and 
simple. It hints at the topography of the mind by depositing a few 
well-placed and exquisitely colored dots on a large canvas. These dots 
are so beautifully placed that we can gaze at them and get a pretty 
good skeleton of the workings of Dhamma. The dots are reliable, but 
there is a big danger in looking too closely at them: We can get so 
wrapped up their beauty that we lose sight of the fact that they are 
just skeletal and leave a large number of gaps. 

SUTAMAYAPANNA AND CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM: An example
A great example of mistaking a gapful text as comprehensive is the 
denial of evolution among some fundamentalist Christians because the 
Bible does not give an explicit account of the process. They argue 
that "God created the heavens and the earth," so the idea of evolution 
has no place. However, the Bible does not comment on the mechanisms by 
which God created the species, and there is a tremendous amount of 
evidence that the mechanism He uses is evolution. There is no 
contradiction between the theories of evolution as expounded by 
scientists and creation expounded by the Bible, but to see this it is 
necessary for the fundamentalist to step back from the Bible for a 
moment and closely examine what it really says and what it does not 
say. It clearly says that God created the heavens and earth, but it 
clearly does not say, "God did not use the mechanism of evolution when 
he created the heavens and earth." Because the Bible is silent on the 
mechanisms, we must step outside it to understand the process more 
deeply.

CINTAMAYAPANNA AND TIPITAKA
The Tipitaka paints a beautiful picture of the landscape of the mind, 
but it is most certainly not comprehensive, as the Buddha himself so 
eloquently expressed in the simile of the handful of leaves. The part 
of the picture it paints is true to reality (at least as far as such 
descriptions can be true), but we also need to understand how those 
parts of the picture relate to our lives and how to properly 
understand what lies in the gaps between the dots painted by Tipitaka. 
To accomplish these two things, we can reflect on the Dhamma and how 
to interpret it in light of our experiences. What was once a pretty 
picture becomes strikingly beautiful when we draw lines between the 
dots and see how logically and smoothly it all comes together. It just 
makes sense. Drawing lines between the points by rationation can be 
very helpful and even necessary, but it is also dangerous because the 
lines we draw necessarily deviate from Tipitaka because they are 
attempting to add detail and color to the parts of the landscape that 
Tipitaka overlooks. That they deviate from Tipitaka is not a problem 
because we MUST deviate from Tipitaka if we want to describe the 
forest of things that are not covered in handful-of-leaves 
description. The danger arises from the possibility that our 
deviations might contradict the Tipitaka. This is a danger that we 
must be always vigilent of, always be on guard against, and always try 
to avoid. However, we should also be on guard against being TOO hung 
up on the possibility of contradiction that we fear any deviations at 
which point Tipitaka becomes a burden to bear, dragging us down, 
rather than a reliable framework on which to guide our steps and 
interpret our experiences. 

BHAVANMAYAPANNA AND TIPITAKA
An invaluable check on the dangers of contradiction when reasoning 
about Dhamma is meditation practice. Given the necessity of deviating 
from Tipitaka if we are to cultivate a thorough understanding of 
Dhamma, serious meditation practice is essential because it allows us 
to see more clearly the dots painted by the scriptures, the lines that 
our rationation draws between those dots, and when our deviations are 
in contradiction with or in accord with the picture of Dhamma painted 
by Tipitaka. Except in cases of obvious error, rationation is 
powerless to recognize whether a deviation from Tipitaka accords with 
or contradicts Dhamma. We can think hard about Tipitaka, about the 
Dhamma, about other people's cogitation about Dhamma and Tipitaka, we 
can try hard to match our experiences to Dhamma and its description in 
Tipitaka, we can ask others to help us determine whether our 
deviations are contradictions or accordances. But in the end, our 
wisdom must be made our own wisdom via meditation and reflection. And 
this requires practice. No one else can do it for us. A danger of 
bhavanamayapanna is that it is very difficult to communicate in words, 
but it is all too easy to overgeneralize and overdramatize its impact. 
The difficulty in communication is somewhat overcome by studying 
scriptures because Buddha and his early disciples did a marvellous job 
constructing a framework and vocabulary for discussing panya. This 
means that it is very important that meditation teachers learn the 
scriptures very well too, or the teachings are bound to be mangled in 
the communication.

 
2731 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:26pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > Oh Amara! You DO have a way with words! On this forum, I sometimes 
see 
> disparagement of meditation teachers who emphasize practice over 
> reading, but your post is the first to go so far as to call the Ven. 
> Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings "silly." I couldn't help but chuckle! 


Dear Dan, 

Thanks for the undeserved compliment/disparagement, I have never 
called anyone "silly.", though, which post would that be in?  Can you 
give the exact message number so I could see for myself?



> When I read your 
> 'silly' comment, I found myself reflecting on bhaya-nana in terms of 
> paticca-sammupada and realized that I probably used the word "dosa" 
> incorrectly. Let me explain: There moments when "formations...appear 
> to him in the form of a great terror, as lions, tigers, 
> leopards,...etc., appear to a timid man who wants to live in 
> peace."[Vism. XXI, 29]. 


I have been reading the 'great terror, as lions, tigers, 
> leopards,...etc., appear to a timid man who wants to live in 
> peace."[Vism. XXI, 29].' part myself, but perhaps because I 
entertain a lot of lobha for animal, even wild ones, I interpreted it 
(according to my own papanca), that simply because I like them I would 
go into the wilds and live among them or even entertain a close 
relationship with them.


Buddhagosa goes on to explain how this is 
the 
> point where the bhaya-nana arises and how the bhaya-nana fears not 
> (thanks, Robert, for the apt citation). Preceding the bhaya-nana, 
> though, there is a very brief moment of real terror that is 
forcefully 
> shattered by the arising of the insight of bhaya-nana. Is it "dosa"? 
> Probably not. "Dosa" would imply an unwise response to the 
sensation, 
> which clearly is not what happens as conditions ripen for the 
arising 
> of bhaya-nana. I believe I misused "dosa," but the 'fear' is still 
> there for an instant. It doesn't register in the mind as fear, 
though, 
> before the wisdom arises that "these formations are indeed fearful." 
> In review, the mind recognizes that there was 'fear' for an instant, 
> but the bhaya is gone in a flash and replaced by bhaya-nana. It is 
> indeed very difficult to describe, but you are right that "dosa" 
does 
> not seem to fit. The Visudhimagga description is wonderful in what 
it 
> covers, but it pretty much skips the details of the transition 
between 
> the arising of bhanga-nana and the arising of bhaya-nana. On the 
other 
> hand, would there be any point in going into that level of detail? 
The 
> book is already very long, and reading in detail about how wisdom 
> arises does not do much to help that wisdom arise experientially. 
The 
> concise and general descriptions, on the other hand, can be helpful.
> 
> Thanks for all your help, Amara, and may your own weeds someday 
enrich 
> your practice as I hope my own weeds will enrich mine. Anumodana.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, 

Amara

 
2732 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:50pm
Subject: "strange", not "silly": My apologies, Amara...

 
  Once again I spoke before having my words in proper order. You used 
the word "strange," not "silly." These words have VERY different 
meanings, and I apologize for my failure to double check on your 
wording before quoting (mis-quoting!) you. I am concerned that people 
will read my 'silly' post and get the false and unfair impression that 
you said 'silly' when you really did not. I hope this clarification 
helps.

> > Oh Amara! You DO have a way with words! On this forum, I sometimes 
> see 
> > disparagement of meditation teachers who emphasize practice over 
> > reading, but your post is the first to go so far as to call the 
Ven. 
> > Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings "silly." I couldn't help but chuckle! 
> 
> 
> Dear Dan, 
> 
> Thanks for the undeserved compliment/disparagement, I have never 
> called anyone "silly.", though, which post would that be in?  Can 
you 
> give the exact message number so I could see for myself?

 
2733 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Hi Dan,
--- Dan Dalthorp <> wrote:
> I sometimes
> see 
> disparagement of meditation teachers who emphasize practice over 
> reading, but your post is the first to go so far as to call the Ven. 
> Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings "silly." I couldn't help but chuckle! 

From observing the posts to the group in the past few months, I think
many people in this group agree that Satipatthana is the only way to
Nibhanna.   Intellectual knowledge and understanding cannot get you
there.   However, I think some of us disagree what Satipatthana is, and
how it is developed.  Some of us also disagree on reliable sources of
the teachings of Buddha.  And as this thread of discussion has shown,
we also disagree on what the different levels of Vipassana nana are and
how they are manifested.

I am glad to see you don't seem to take offense to labeling subjective.
  I think all each of us can do is to explain our understanding in the
open, and point out to each other good sources of information.  Whether
one who reads the messages understand dhamma the right way or not, that
depends on many conditions and accumulations.  

Mispellings of pali terms, for examples, are understandably a hindrance
to understanding the discussions.  Clearly akusala vipaka for those who
endure them, and possibly akusala kamma for those who propagate them. 
My apology to all.

Misunderstood statements about dhamma are also an even harder hindrance
to overcome.  I personally propagate some recently, and will no doubt
propagate more (maybe less and less???) in the future.   

kom



 
2734 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 10:58pm
Subject: Re: "strange", not "silly": My apologies, Amara...

 
  > Once again I spoke before having my words in proper order. You used 
> the word "strange," not "silly." These words have VERY different 
> meanings, and I apologize for my failure to double check on your 
> wording before quoting (mis-quoting!) you. I am concerned that 
people 
> will read my 'silly' post and get the false and unfair impression 
that 
> you said 'silly' when you really did not. I hope this clarification 
> helps.
> 
> > > Oh Amara! You DO have a way with words! On this forum, I 
sometimes 
> > see 
> > > disparagement of meditation teachers who emphasize practice over 
> > > reading, but your post is the first to go so far as to call the 
> Ven. 
> > > Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings "silly." I couldn't help but chuckle! 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Dan, 
> > 
> > Thanks for the undeserved compliment/disparagement, I have never 
> > called anyone "silly.", though, which post would that be in?  Can 
> you 
> > give the exact message number so I could see for myself?


Dear Dan,

Glad to have given you a chuckle anyway,

Amara

 
2735 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 11:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Lee,
---  wrote:
> > The conditions for attaining this level is severely strict: it's 
> > possible only when you live a recluse's life (you must be a very 
> > reclusive monk, for example).  
I hope Robert's posts recently is clarifying the conditions needed to
attain samatha at the uppana level to your satisfaction.  

> From my reading and understanding, for attaining the temporary 
> freedom from kilesa at uppana level, it doesn't depend on whether one
> 
> leads a reclusive life or whether a monk or a layperson, but depends 
> on whether does the one whose practice aims for nibbana or not. If 
> one aims for nibbana, very single effort will lead to the goal. 
> The statement somehow, I feel, differs the effort between monk and 
> layperson. I remember that the path is the same for EVERYONE who 
> practise it correctly. I might be wrong but can I have a reference 
> from tipitaka for the above statement.
> ________________________
The path to Nibhanna is the same for everyone: via Satipatthana. 
Samatha bhavana is not Satipatthana but can be a condition fo
Satipatthana.  Monks do fundamentally lead a different life than a
layperson.   I don't regularly go around giving people opportunities to
give dana, reminding people of the beneficient sangha, and applying
myself solely for the purpose of Nibhanna.  Do you?

Also, micha-effort would never lead you to the goal.  They key is to
know the difference between micha-efforts and samma-efforts, knowing
what leads to Nibhanna, and which does not.  

kom


 
2736  
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 1:26am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  ---  Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> I have also heard the analogy of the Vitaka being the gong of a bell
> when it is first struck, and Vicara being the echo of it.  Vitaka's
> characteristics are more coarse than Vicara.  

   Dear friends,

   I heard that Vitaka is like seeing a pen, but Vicara is knowing 
that pen very clearly: the material it's made of, from what country 
it's made of, how it's made, how it's shipped, ...

Metta,
Alex

 
2737  
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 1:36am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

>  Even in ancient times there were not so many who could attain
> Jhana. 

   The reason it's difficult to attain any level of jhana is because 
the practitioner has to be born with 3 hetus: no dosa, no moha, and 
no avijja.  Then, if he chooses to do samatha bhavana, he may reach 
any level of jhana, or if he chooses to follow the Buddha's 
teachings, he'll achieve the path and fruit of liberation.

   Since nowadays, most of us were born with 2 hetus: no dosa and no 
moha, we need to study Dhamma so that panna may develop.  Then, in 
the future life times, we may be reborn with 3 hetus.  In another 
words, we need to work on our Paramis so that better conditions may 
arise later.

Metta,
Alex

 
2738 From:  
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 2:36am
Subject: Thanks

 
  Dear,

Thanks for those who help and pointed out my mistakes and silliness 
(Kom, Robert, Bruce,....). Samatha bhavana is something new for me 
now.


Lee

 
2739 From: kelvin liew peng chuan   
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 4:29pm
Subject: monks life-lay life

 
  Dear Betty,
           i was ordained in a temple bordering Thailand...Malaysia.The 
temple's name is Malaysia Buddhist Meditation Centre in Penang.There are 
Mahasi tradition's learned monks residing in the temple , especially during 
the Vassa months. Learned monks like Sayadawji Pandita and Sayadaw U 
Panasami was there when i was a samanera.Admonishment was given once by each 
of them and that really carried alot of weight!

when i was stuck in my meditation and frustrated about it,Sayadawji gave 
encouragement.Another memorable incident took place when Sayadaw U Panasami 
ordained me. He said " always bring your sitting cloth along" and i figured 
it out as a message to meditate whenever possible days later!

 
2740 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 6:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!]

 
  Hi Mike,

I think my response would be even more out of place than yours!
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Shouldn't that be the goal of us all?  How could we
> have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to
> the life of an arahat?
There were Ariya during the Budha time who didn't become a monk.   They
certainly understood Dhamma.  They didn't have the accumulations to
become a monk in that life (duties?  other kilesa?)

I certainly wouldn't disencourage anyone from becoming a monk.  I
thought of doing this once (just for a few months), but the thought of
following 227 rules just didn't feel workable when I couldn't follow
just 8.  I don't think I have the accumulations to be a monk (yet!). 
Also, A. Santi mentioned the difficulties of keeping the rules
perfectly when your fellow monks do not.  He also mentioned that
traveling to teach/learn dhamma from the experts are also quite a bit
harder.

I think if you could (have the accumulations to) follow the path of an
Arahant, by all means, do.  Be sure to follow the (true) path of the
Buddha and his Sangha, though...

kom



2741 From:  
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 6:49am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Bruce,

Here's the website link:

http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html

Made possible by Tan A. Sujin
and Khun Amara and others.

kom
---  bruce wrote:
> i have to study the terminology quite bit more, re: all the cetasika you
> refer to in your explanations of vitakka/vicara....also, you refer to khun
> amara's website: is that dhammastudy.com or is it somewhere else?

 
2742 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 10:14am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Alex,
I haven't heard that analogy but it sounds to me more like the
difference between sanna, citta and panna (perception,
consciousness and wisdom)sanna merely perceives an object as
this  is green, that is blue. Citta sees all the individual
charcteristics but can't fathom it as anatta, anicca, dukkha -
which only panna can do.
Robert
---  wrote:
> ---  Kom Tukovinit 
> wrote:
> > I have also heard the analogy of the Vitaka being the gong
> of a bell
> > when it is first struck, and Vicara being the echo of it. 
> Vitaka's
> > characteristics are more coarse than Vicara.  
> 
>    Dear friends,
> 
>    I heard that Vitaka is like seeing a pen, but Vicara is
> knowing 
> that pen very clearly: the material it's made of, from what
> country 
> it's made of, how it's made, how it's shipped, ...
> 
> Metta,
> Alex
> 

 
2743 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 10:53am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > I haven't heard that analogy but it sounds to me more like the
> difference between sanna, citta and panna (perception,
> consciousness and wisdom)sanna merely perceives an object as
> this  is green, that is blue. Citta sees all the individual
> charcteristics but can't fathom it as anatta, anicca, dukkha -
> which only panna can do.


Dear all,

From the 'Summary', the citta is explained more as an intelligence 
than a consciousness since it arises when one is alive, even in a coma 
or deep sleep, as the bhavanga citta (or life continuum).  

Sanna on the other hand is one of the sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika 
seven universal cetasika) that accompany all citta.  Its function is 
memory, it remembers everything the citta is experiencing, from colors 
to wrong view.

Panna is of course right understanding, seeing things as they really 
are, it only arises with the right conditions and uniquely with 
sobhana citta (citta with kusala cetasika).

Amara

 
2744 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 11:06am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  >    The reason it's difficult to attain any level of jhana is because 
> the practitioner has to be born with 3 hetus: no dosa, no moha, and 
> no avijja.  Then, if he chooses to do samatha bhavana, he may reach 
> any level of jhana, or if he chooses to follow the Buddha's 
> teachings, he'll achieve the path and fruit of liberation.
> 
>    Since nowadays, most of us were born with 2 hetus: no dosa and no 
> moha, we need to study Dhamma so that panna may develop.  Then, in 
> the future life times, we may be reborn with 3 hetus.  In another 
> words, we need to work on our Paramis so that better conditions may 
> arise later.


Dear Alex,

I think the reason we are here discussing the dhamma instead of some 
cyber whatnots is that we are probably all born with three hetu!!!  
According to Khun Sujin, though, most with even all three would not 
even be interested in the dhamma, so we are the lucky few to be able 
to develop panna, the only treasure we can take with us to our 
future existences, anything else we would have to leave behind.

I for one am glad to be in such company, anumodana,
=^_^=
Amara

 
2745 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 11:13am
Subject: Ch.s 6&7

 
  Dear friends,

Almost forgot to report: NVG's 'Abhidhamma' ch.s 6&7 up last night, 
intermediate section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.

Enjoy,

Amara

 
2746 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 11:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Visuddhimagga XIV3 "the state of knowing is equally present in
perception(sanna) in consciousness (vinnana)(synonym for citta)
and in panna. Nevertheless perception is only the mere
perceiving of an object as, say,'blue' or 'yellow';it cannot
bring about the penetration of its characteristics as
impermanent painful and not-self. Consciousness knows the
objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration
of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about by
endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. Panna knows the
object in the way already stated, it brings about the
penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by
endeavoring, the manifestation of the path"
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > I haven't heard that analogy but it sounds to me more like
> the
> > difference between sanna, citta and panna (perception,
> > consciousness and wisdom)sanna merely perceives an object as
> > this  is green, that is blue. Citta sees all the individual
> > charcteristics but can't fathom it as anatta, anicca, dukkha
> -
> > which only panna can do.
> 
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> From the 'Summary', the citta is explained more as an
> intelligence 
> than a consciousness since it arises when one is alive, even
> in a coma 
> or deep sleep, as the bhavanga citta (or life continuum).  
> 
> Sanna on the other hand is one of the
> sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika 
> seven universal cetasika) that accompany all citta.  Its
> function is 
> memory, it remembers everything the citta is experiencing,
> from colors 
> to wrong view.
> 
> Panna is of course right understanding, seeing things as they
> really 
> are, it only arises with the right conditions and uniquely
> with 
> sobhana citta (citta with kusala cetasika).
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2747 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 11:28am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  > Visuddhimagga XIV3 "the state of knowing is equally present in
> perception(sanna) in consciousness (vinnana)(synonym for citta)
> and in panna. Nevertheless perception is only the mere
> perceiving of an object as, say,'blue' or 'yellow';it cannot
> bring about the penetration of its characteristics as
> impermanent painful and not-self. Consciousness knows the
> objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration
> of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about by
> endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. Panna knows the
> object in the way already stated, it brings about the
> penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by
> endeavoring, the manifestation of the path"


This explains 'the state of knowing' very clearly.  Except for the 
translation of perception as '(sanna)', which whomever did the 
translation did not specify that 'sanna' is memory and therefore 
cognition, as in recognition.  

Otherwise this is a good differentiation of panna as right 
understanding from common memory and knowledge; and experiencing daily 
life from moments when panna arises.

Who did the translation, by the way?

Amara


> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > I haven't heard that analogy but it sounds to me more like
> > the
> > > difference between sanna, citta and panna (perception,
> > > consciousness and wisdom)sanna merely perceives an object as
> > > this  is green, that is blue. Citta sees all the individual
> > > charcteristics but can't fathom it as anatta, anicca, dukkha
> > -
> > > which only panna can do.
> > 
> > 
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > From the 'Summary', the citta is explained more as an
> > intelligence 
> > than a consciousness since it arises when one is alive, even
> > in a coma 
> > or deep sleep, as the bhavanga citta (or life continuum).  
> > 
> > Sanna on the other hand is one of the
> > sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika 
> > seven universal cetasika) that accompany all citta.  Its
> > function is 
> > memory, it remembers everything the citta is experiencing,
> > from colors 
> > to wrong view.
> > 
> > Panna is of course right understanding, seeing things as they
> > really 
> > are, it only arises with the right conditions and uniquely
> > with 
> > sobhana citta (citta with kusala cetasika).
> > 
> > Amara
> > 


 
2748 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 0:01pm
Subject: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Dear amara,
See my comments below:
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> > Visuddhimagga XIV3 "the state of knowing is equally present
> in
> > perception(sanna) in consciousness (vinnana)(synonym for
> citta)
> > and in panna. Nevertheless perception is only the mere
> > perceiving of an object as, say,'blue' or 'yellow';it cannot
> > bring about the penetration of its characteristics as
> > impermanent painful and not-self. Consciousness knows the
> > objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the
> penetration
> > of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about by
> > endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. Panna knows the
> > object in the way already stated, it brings about the
> > penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by
> > endeavoring, the manifestation of the path"
> 
> 
> This explains 'the state of knowing' very clearly.  Except for
> the 
> translation of perception as '(sanna)', which whomever did the
> 
> translation did not specify that 'sanna' is memory and
> therefore 
> cognition, as in recognition.  

Could you give us the Thai version (translated); this may be an
important error in the English as usually sanna is translated as
perception. They do exlain also that it has the function of
memory but this is not stressed usually by translators. I would
love to know more about this.


> 
> Otherwise this is a good differentiation of panna as right 
> understanding from common memory and knowledge; and
> experiencing daily 
> life from moments when panna arises.

Glad you approve. 

> 
> Who did the translation, by the way?

Venerable nanamoli an English monk who lived in sri lanka.


On your last post you wrote:
">>From the 'Summary', the citta is explained more as an
intelligence 
than a consciousness since it arises when one is alive, even in
a coma 
or deep sleep, as the bhavanga citta (or life continuum)." >>>

I see in your  translation of Summary of Paramattha Dhammas by
Khun sujin that you you translate Citta as consciousness not
intelligence:

>>>... with the power of a dhamma, it is citta.  This
demonstrates the importance of citta, which is consciousness,
which experiences and knows, which is eminent in experiencing
whatever appears>>>>

Also the glossary on your web page has this definition for
>>>>>>citta:  
consciousness, the reality which knows, or cognizes an object.
>>>>

Robert
 



> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > I haven't heard that analogy but it sounds to me more
> like
> > > the
> > > > difference between sanna, citta and panna (perception,
> > > > consciousness and wisdom)sanna merely perceives an
> object as
> > > > this  is green, that is blue. Citta sees all the
> individual
> > > > charcteristics but can't fathom it as anatta, anicca,
> dukkha
> > > -
> > > > which only panna can do.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dear all,
> > > 
> > > From the 'Summary', the citta is explained more as an
> > > intelligence 
> > > than a consciousness since it arises when one is alive,
> even
> > > in a coma 
> > > or deep sleep, as the bhavanga citta (or life continuum). 
> 
> > > 
> > > Sanna on the other hand is one of the
> > > sabba-citta-sadharana-cetasika 
> > > seven universal cetasika) that accompany all citta.  Its
> > > function is 
> > > memory, it remembers everything the citta is experiencing,
> > > from colors 
> > > to wrong view.
> > > 
> > > Panna is of course right understanding, seeing things as
> they
> > > really 
> > > are, it only arises with the right conditions and uniquely
> > > with 
> > > sobhana citta (citta with kusala cetasika).
> > > 
> > > Amara
> > > 



 
2749 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 0:08pm
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear amara,
> See my comments below:
> --- amara chay  wrote:
> > 
> > > Visuddhimagga XIV3 "the state of knowing is equally present
> > in
> > > perception(sanna) in consciousness (vinnana)(synonym for
> > citta)
> > > and in panna. Nevertheless perception is only the mere
> > > perceiving of an object as, say,'blue' or 'yellow';it cannot
> > > bring about the penetration of its characteristics as
> > > impermanent painful and not-self. Consciousness knows the
> > > objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the
> > penetration
> > > of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about by
> > > endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. Panna knows the
> > > object in the way already stated, it brings about the
> > > penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by
> > > endeavoring, the manifestation of the path"
> > 
> > 
> > This explains 'the state of knowing' very clearly.  Except for
> > the 
> > translation of perception as '(sanna)', which whomever did the
> > 
> > translation did not specify that 'sanna' is memory and
> > therefore 
> > cognition, as in recognition.  
> 
> Could you give us the Thai version (translated); this may be an
> important error in the English as usually sanna is translated as
> perception. They do exlain also that it has the function of
> memory but this is not stressed usually by translators. I would
> love to know more about this.


Will look it up.


> 
> 
> > 
> > Otherwise this is a good differentiation of panna as right 
> > understanding from common memory and knowledge; and
> > experiencing daily 
> > life from moments when panna arises.
> 
> Glad you approve. 
> 
> > 
> > Who did the translation, by the way?
> 
> Venerable nanamoli an English monk who lived in sri lanka.
> 
> 
> On your last post you wrote:
> ">>From the 'Summary', the citta is explained more as an
> intelligence 
> than a consciousness since it arises when one is alive, even in
> a coma 
> or deep sleep, as the bhavanga citta (or life continuum)." >>>
> 
> I see in your  translation of Summary of Paramattha Dhammas by
> Khun sujin that you you translate Citta as consciousness not
> intelligence:
> 
> >>>... with the power of a dhamma, it is citta.  This
> demonstrates the importance of citta, which is consciousness,
> which experiences and knows, which is eminent in experiencing
> whatever appears>>>>


What do you call 'which experiences and knows, which is eminent in 
experiencing whatever appears'? stupidity?



> Also the glossary on your web page has this definition for
> >>>>>>citta:  
> consciousness, the reality which knows, or cognizes an object.


The glossary is not finished, as I said, it is temporary.  

Amara



2750  
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 0:25pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  ---  "amara chay" wrote:

Dear Amara,

> I think the reason we are here discussing the dhamma instead of some 
> cyber whatnots is that we are probably all born with three hetu!!!

   I wish that it were true.  The fact is that we can talk, read or 
think about dhamma all the time, but still we cannot reach even the 
level of Sotapanna proves that we were born with 2 hetus.  

   Don't feel bad though because while we study dhamma, panna will be 
developed.  Then, we'll be born with 3 hetus.

> According to Khun Sujin, though, most with even all three would not 
> even be interested in the dhamma, 

   How true!  It also means that the ones who are not interested in 
dhamma may be re-born with no hetu: birth in the lower realms, or 
birth with physical defects (such as blindness, dumbness) as a human 
or in the Catumaharajika, which is right above the human one.

>so we are the lucky few to be able 
> to develop panna, the only treasure we can take with us to our 
> future existences, anything else we would have to leave behind.
> 
> I for one am glad to be in such company, anumodana,
> =^_^=
> Amara

 
2751 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 0:48pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  >    How true!  It also means that the ones who are not interested in 
> dhamma may be re-born with no hetu: birth in the lower realms, or 
> birth with physical defects (such as blindness, dumbness) as a human 
> or in the Catumaharajika, which is right above the human one.


Dea Alex, 

Here is a passage from the 'Summary' from the chapter on hetu (citta 
ch.14):

The patisandhicitta in the human plane and that of the apaya-bhumi 
are results of different kamma. The patisandhicitta of those in the 
apaya-bhumi are akusala-vipaka-citta, the result of akusala-kamma 
causing births in the hell plane, in the pitivisaya-bhumi, in the 
asurakaya-bhumi or the animal plane. The patisandhi-citta of those 
born humans or deva of different levels are kusala-vipaka-citta, the 
results of kusala-kamma causing births in the sugati-bhumi. 

 Though birth in the manussa-bhumi (the human plane) is kusala-vipaka, 
some people are born innately handicapped because the 
kusala-vipaka-citta that performed the function of patisandhi are the 
results of kusala-kamma without panna-cetasika arising with them.  
The kusala-kamma must also be of a very weak kind for the 
kusala-vipaka-citta that performed the patisandhi-kicca
not to be composed with sobhana-cetasika, or it does not arise with 
alobha-cetasika or adosa-cetasika etc.  Since it is the result of a 
very weak kusala-kamma, the past akusala-kamma would beleaguer (the 
person) and render him deformed from birth. 

 Among those who are born without disabilities, all are born 
distinctly, by family, rank and retinue because the kusala-vipa-citta 
that perform the function of patisandhi differ according to the 
strength of the kusala-kamma that are the causes.  If a 
patisandhi-citta results from kusala-kamma with panna-cetasika of a 
weak kind or with none at all, the patisandhi-citta that is 
kusala-vipaka would arise with sobhana-cetasika together with two 
hetu, namely alobha-cetasika and adosa-cetasika, as 
davi-hetuka-puggala, or a person whose patisandhi-citta is without 
panna-cetasika arising concurrently.  That person would be unable to 
 attain jhana or lokuttara-dhamma in that lifetime. 

 Those whose patisandhi-citta result from kamma with panna and whose 
patisandhi-citta arise with panna-cetasika concurrently are 
ti-hetuka-puggala because there are three hetu namely,
alobha-cetasika, adosa-cetasika and panna (amoha) -cetasika arising 
concurrently.  Having heard the dhamma they would examine and 
understand it and be able to develop panna until they achieve 
jhana-citta or realize the four ariya-sacca-dhamma and attain nibbana 
and become ariya-puggala in that lifetime according to their 
accumulated conditions.  However, one should not be overconfident.  
Those who are intelligent, with patisandhi-citta that are ti-hetuka, 
but neglect developing kusala, and not listening to the dhamma, would 
be wise in worldly matters, well-educated or otherwise skillful but 
would not develop panna in the dhamma and would not know the 
characteristics of realities as they truly are. 

 In the distant past of former lives some might have been interested 
in the dhamma, might have studied the dhamma, or even have become 
ordained bhikkhu or samanera but to realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, 
no one knows in which state one would attain ariya-sacca-dhamma, as
a monk or a lay person.  Everyone must develop panna, to know the 
characteristics of realities that are appearing as they really are 
in every lifetime until one reaches the lifetime when panna is sharp 
and strong, able to penetrate the ariya-sacca-dhamma.  Even though 
once one might have been interested in the dhamma, its studies and 
applications, one must not forget that before the full realization 
of the ariya-sacca-dhamma there had been a great deal of amassed 
akusala to make one lose oneself in the pleasure of akusala if one 
were negligent.  Therefore, even though the patisandhi-citta is 
ti-hetuka, whenever one is careless, the panna-cetasika of that 
lifetime would not develop because one did not develop it with
listening, examining and practicing the dhamma.  It would, therefore, 
be a pity that though the patisandhi-citta of that lifetime is 
ti-hetuka, panna is not developed, while it is uncertain which
kind of kusala will result in which patisandhi-citta in the next 
life.  It could be akusala-vipaka-citta causing patisandhi-citta in 
the apaya-bhumi; or ahetuka-kusala- vipaka-citta performing 
patisandhi as an innate disabled person; or davi-hetuka- vipaka-citta 
performing patisandhi as a davi-hetuka-puggala in the sugati-bhumi, 
who are unable to develop panna to fully realize the 
ariya-sacca-dhamma. 

 Therefore, it is to be regretted that panna is not developed further 
with each lifetime even though it were with ti-hetuka-patisandhi but 
since panna has not been sufficiently developed, there can be no 
realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma in this lifetime.  Not everyone 
who are ti-hetuka-puggala could realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma fully 
in their present existence. 

 While those born human without handicaps are sound asleep, their 
bhavanga-citta would be sobhana-citta since their patisandhi-citta 
are davi-hetuka with alobha-cetasika, adosa-cetasika arising 
concurrently.  Some, whose patisandhi-citta are ti-hetuka with 
alobha-cetasika, adosa-cetasika and panna-cetasika arising 
concurrently, while they are sound asleep, kilesa would not arise, 
nor would pleasure or displeasure since there is no seeing, hearing, 
smelling, tasting , thinking (…).  But once awaken the akusala-citta 
that arise each day would condition gladness or sadness accordingly.  
Generally, once one is awake  there would be more asobhana
than kusala daily.  Cakkhu-vinnana would arise to see visual objects 
through the eyes only an instant then afterwards generally 
akusala-javana-citta would arise for seven instants; which
means seven times the number of the cakkhu-vinnana that performs the 
function of seeing each instant.  The accumulation in continuation of 
akusala-dhamma each day is extremely great.  Therefore one should not 
be careless.  Once one had heard the dhamma that the Buddha 
manifested in detail about which instant is sobhana-citta, which 
asobhana and about whether asobhana-citta is akusala, vipaka or 
kiriya. 

(End quote.)

Thought you might like this passage,

Amara

 
2752 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 1:04pm
Subject: padaparama

 
  Dear Alex,
This is powerful stuff. I want to say how much I appreciate your
courage in saying this. I don't know if it is true that most of
us are dvi-hetuka but it could be. The commentaries definitely 
state that at this time there are only padaparama and neyya.
Neyya may attain in this life- but only if they hear many
details, find the right path and do not follow an imitation of
vipassana. Most of us are padaparama -we will not attain in this
life but if the right conditions are fulfilled we may attain
immediately in the next life, possibly as a deva. Even those who
have three roots can easily deviate from the right path. There
are so many who imagine they have experienced vipassana nana
these days because of strange experiences they have in
meditation; it is truly difficult to distinguish right from
wrong. 

Does this discourage anyone. Do you want to be certain you can
attain this life. Do you want so much the security of being
sotapanna? This is tanha, it will not help. It will lead you to
attach to the wrong way, the promise of quick results. We can
take heart. Learn to see that all dhammas are conditioned, learn
the difference between the moments when there is sati and when
there is not. Study the characteristics of the paramattha
dhammas arisng at the doors. These efforts are not lost.
I have a blind friend in thailand, a student of Khun sujin, he
is relaxed and happy, he knows the great advantge in listening
to dhamma. 
Even if we were born mentally impaired but we took to listening
to dhamma we would accumulate much merit. There was a frog in
the Buddhas time - he listened to the Buddha and all he could
perceive was 'this is good'. he died and was reborn as a deva
(three rooted). He was surprised and looked back and realised
that simply by listening to the Buddha he had taken on this
majesty. That same day he visited the Buddha, listened more and
became sotapanna. It can happen because in countless lives
before he was frog he must have accumulated parami. (he was an
exceptional frog) All of us here can listen and consider in
depth the sublime teachings. It is wonderful indeed to have such
a chance, so rare in samasara. 
Robert 

---  wrote:
> ---  "amara chay" wrote:
> 
> Dear Amara,
> 
> > I think the reason we are here discussing the dhamma instead
> of 
> some 
> > cyber whatnots is that we are probably all born with three
> hetu!!!
> 
>    I wish that it were true.  The fact is that we can talk,
> read or 
> think about dhamma all the time, but still we cannot reach
> even the 
> level of Sotapanna proves that we were born with 2 hetus.  
> 
>    Don't feel bad though because while we study dhamma, panna
> will be 
> developed.  Then, we'll be born with 3 hetus.
> 
> > According to Khun Sujin, though, most with even all three
> would not 
> > even be interested in the dhamma, 
> 
>    How true!  It also means that the ones who are not
> interested in 
> dhamma may be re-born with no hetu: birth in the lower realms,
> or 
> birth with physical defects (such as blindness, dumbness) as a
> human 
> or in the Catumaharajika, which is right above the human one.
> 
> >so we are the lucky few to be able 
> > to develop panna, the only treasure we can take with us to
> our 
> > future existences, anything else we would have to leave
> behind.
> > 
> > I for one am glad to be in such company, anumodana,
> > =^_^=
> > Amara
> 
> 



 
2753 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 1:30pm
Subject: Re: padaparama

 
  > I don't know if it is true that most of
> us are dvi-hetuka but it could be. The commentaries definitely 
> state that at this time there are only padaparama and neyya.
> Neyya may attain in this life- but only if they hear many
> details, find the right path and do not follow an imitation of
> vipassana. Most of us are padaparama -we will not attain in this
> life but if the right conditions are fulfilled we may attain
> immediately in the next life, possibly as a deva. Even those who
> have three roots can easily deviate from the right path. There
> are so many who imagine they have experienced vipassana nana
> these days because of strange experiences they have in
> meditation; it is truly difficult to distinguish right from
> wrong. 


Dear all,

I hope we realize that we are talking about two different 
classifications here, the hetu and the puggala:

The hetu are the components of the citta, of which there are six, 
three kusala and three akusala, and may or may not arise in a citta, 
in daily life.  Their presence (uniquely the kusala this time) or 
absence in the patisandhi-citta (birth consciousness) depends on a 
previous kamma in a former life, which will determine what kind of 
patisandhi it will be, as well as the bhavanga (life continuum) citta 
of that lifetime, which will always be the same kind of citta as the 
patisandhi citta.

As to the classification of the puggalas, there are four, as we all 
know, the uggatitannu, vipatitannu, neyya and padaparama.

Just a remark,

Amara

> Does this discourage anyone. Do you want to be certain you can
> attain this life. Do you want so much the security of being
> sotapanna? This is tanha, it will not help. It will lead you to
> attach to the wrong way, the promise of quick results. We can
> take heart. Learn to see that all dhammas are conditioned, learn
> the difference between the moments when there is sati and when
> there is not. Study the characteristics of the paramattha
> dhammas arisng at the doors. These efforts are not lost.
> I have a blind friend in thailand, a student of Khun sujin, he
> is relaxed and happy, he knows the great advantge in listening
> to dhamma. 
> Even if we were born mentally impaired but we took to listening
> to dhamma we would accumulate much merit. There was a frog in
> the Buddhas time - he listened to the Buddha and all he could
> perceive was 'this is good'. he died and was reborn as a deva
> (three rooted). He was surprised and looked back and realised
> that simply by listening to the Buddha he had taken on this
> majesty. That same day he visited the Buddha, listened more and
> became sotapanna. It can happen because in countless lives
> before he was frog he must have accumulated parami. (he was an
> exceptional frog) All of us here can listen and consider in
> depth the sublime teachings. It is wonderful indeed to have such
> a chance, so rare in samasara. 
> Robert 
> 
> ---  wrote:
> > ---  "amara chay"
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Amara,
> > 
> > > I think the reason we are here discussing the dhamma instead
> > of 
> > some 
> > > cyber whatnots is that we are probably all born with three
> > hetu!!!
> > 
> >    I wish that it were true.  The fact is that we can talk,
> > read or 
> > think about dhamma all the time, but still we cannot reach
> > even the 
> > level of Sotapanna proves that we were born with 2 hetus.  
> > 
> >    Don't feel bad though because while we study dhamma, panna
> > will be 
> > developed.  Then, we'll be born with 3 hetus.
> > 
> > > According to Khun Sujin, though, most with even all three
> > would not 
> > > even be interested in the dhamma, 
> > 
> >    How true!  It also means that the ones who are not
> > interested in 
> > dhamma may be re-born with no hetu: birth in the lower realms,
> > or 
> > birth with physical defects (such as blindness, dumbness) as a
> > human 
> > or in the Catumaharajika, which is right above the human one.
> > 
> > >so we are the lucky few to be able 
> > > to develop panna, the only treasure we can take with us to
> > our 
> > > future existences, anything else we would have to leave
> > behind.
> > > 
> > > I for one am glad to be in such company, anumodana,
> > > =^_^=
> > > Amara
> > 
> 

 
2755 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 3:02pm
Subject: Precepts - Intoxicants

 
  Dear All

Some time ago there was discussion here about the
reason for the inclusion of the avoidance of
intoxicants in the 5 precepts.

Recently I came across an old BPS Newsletter with an
article by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the subject of sobriety. 
In it he explains the reason for the laying down of
the precept.  He says-

To dispel any doubt about his reasons for prescribing
this precept, the Buddha has written the explanation
into the rule itself:  one is to refrain from the use
of intoxicating drinks and drugs because they are the
cause of heedlessness (pamaada).  Heedlessness means
moral recklessness, disregard for the bounds between
right and wrong.  It is the loss of heedfulness
(appamaada), moral scrupulousness based on a keen
perception of the dangers in unwholesome states. …
[ends]

Bh Bodhi goes on to say that to indulge in
intoxicating drinks is to risk falling away from each
of the 3 stages of the path – morality, concentration
and wisdom [ie sila, samadhi and panna].

If anyone comes across any actual Tipitaka references,
please share with us.

By the way, I believe that ‘moral recklessness,
disregard for the bounds between right and wrong’ in
the passage quoted above is a reference to the absence
of the cetasikas (mental factors) hiri and ottappa,
which have been the subject of discussion recently.

Jonothan



 
2756 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 5:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Kom

I have a slightly different understanding on this
subject than Robert (Mike, but there is no discord
between us!), and I hope you don't mind if I give my
thoughts here.

>  wrote:
> >  Almost always breath is concept when we are aware
> of it.
> > Especially when it is used as an object for
> samattha and a
> > nimitta arises this is obviously concept. 
> You are saying here that in the beginning, the
> meditator (samatha
> bhavana) may have poramattha as aramana.  However,
> since to develop the
> samatha bhanvana further, nimita must appear, and
> therefore, at this
> point, it becomes pannati.  Is this about right?

Breath, it seems to me, is a concept.  Like with the
concept ‘body’, it is possible that there can be
awareness of one of the realities that we normally
take for breath/body, and at such moments no concept
of breath/body appears.  But there is no paramattha
dhamma ‘breath’, just as there is no paramattha dhamma
‘body’.

Breath as object of samatha is a concept.  Breath as
object of satipatthana, however, is a reference to
awareness of one of the realities that we take for
breath.

> > And even during
> > vipassana when there is awareness of the different
> namas and
> > rupas that arise almost simultaneoulsy with breath
> - the breath
> > itself is not an object for satipatthana. However
> breath is
> > actually composed of rupas that are conditioned
> ONLY by citta
> > (citta-samutthana-rupa). Only special type of
> wisdom can
> > actually distinguish between the rupas that are
> citta-samutthana
> > -rupa and say those that are utu -samutthana-rupa.
>  Thus we might
> > think we are experiencing the rupas that are
> conditioned by
> > citta but actually be observing other types - it
> is exceedingly
> > hard to know. 
> Do you know of anyone who actually try to "observe"
> the differences
> between citta-samutthana and utu-samutthana rupa? 
> Are the differences
> actually observable via Satipatthana?  This is where
> I can understand
> how being unwise studying Abhidhamma could cause
> insanity...

I think what Robert is saying here is that one reason
why samatha bhavana with breath as object is so
difficult is that it is easy to take what is not
breath for breath, since there are all sorts of things
happening around the tip of the nose.  Knowledge of
the difference between the 2 kinds of rupa
(conditioned by citta vs. conditioned by utu) would be
panna of the level of samatha bhavana, I suppose.

The difference between these 2 kinds of rupa is of no
significance in the development of satipatthana, since
satipatthana does not require the arising of awareness
in relation to any particular reality.  And as far as
I know, the characteristic of, say, hardness, is the
same whenever it appears to sati ie it does not differ
according to its conditioning factor/s.

This is a very complex area.  I have only ever tried
to understand the basics, because these are confusing
enough!

Jonothan



 
 
2757 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 5:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dhd5

I am coming in here without having read all the later
posts – I know from experience that if I wait until I
am up-to-date I won’t get to post anything – so
apologies in advance if I am going over ground already
covered.

>           Mahasi clearly
> indicated that the 
> bhaya-nana is knowledge of a directly experienced
> fear: "[The yogi's] 
> mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless."
> This accords more 
> closely to my reasoning and experience than do your
> deviations from 
> Tipitaka. Your deviation from Tipitaka is writing
> that the bhaya-nana 
> is not derived from a real, directly experienced
> fear, that it 
> is not wisdom regarding a real, directly experienced
> fear. Please note 
> that I do not say that you contradict Tipitaka, only
> that you are 
> extrapolating or deviating from Tipitaka. Your
> extrapolation differs 
> from Mahasi's, and it differs from mine, but to the
> best of my 
> knowledge, none of the extrapolations contradicts
> Tipitaka.

I don’t know if you would agree, but it seems to me
that the 2 commentaries – Buddhaghosa’s and Mahasi
Sayadaw’s – are mutually exclusive, ie they can’t both
be right.  So it is perhaps a question as to which of
the 2 accords more fully with the Tipitaka.  As far as
I know, Buddhaghosa has never been faulted on this
score in the 1500 years or so that the Visuddhimagga
has been around.  But it will be interesting to see
what Amara comes up with in her search of the
Attasalini.

Jonothan



 
2758 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 5:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Alex

I agree with your comment that people tend to confuse
samatha and vipassana

> >Even the samatha development using
> > anapanasati (breath) as aramana, the samatha
> object is still a 
> concept.
> 
>    Good point!  That's how the "vipassana"
> meditators get into 
> samatha development while they think that they are
> doing "vipassana" 
> meditation.

However, I would go further and say that since samatha
development requires a high degree of panna, a person
who mistakenly thought they were developing vipassana
could not be developing samatha.

Good to have your cheery posts back again.

Jonothan



 
2759 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 5:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  Amara

> In any case K Sujin said that recitals are the
> general practice, 

Thanks for this clarification.  I am relieved to hear
that the original reference was to recitals rather
than a mantras! (I don’t know about dictionary
definitions, but I believe the 2 terms are generally
understood as having distinctly different meanings).

On the other point you mentioned-

>             I think she does 
> every night, and she says any reflection on the
> Buddha's beneficence 
> is always good.

I am not clear what you are saying K Sujin does every
night, but I wonder if it is something we should be
concerned with?

I am reminded of the discussion at the hotel in Siem
Riep in Cambodia.  You will recall that K Sujin
pointed out that reciting together in a group, for
example at the close of the discussion, could be seen
as a sort of forcing.  Recollection of the Buddha is
only good if it is kusala.

Jonothan


 
2760 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 5:26pm
Subject: Spoilt for choice

 
  Dear All

If you have visited the Zolag website recently, you
may have noticed a new section ‘A Survey of Paramattha
Dhammas’ by Sujin Boriharnwanaket.

Just to avoid any confusion, I should point out that
this is a translation of the same book by Khun Sujin
(originally written in Thai) as Amara’s ‘Summary of
Paramatthadhammas’.  Amara’s translation is now
complete and ready for printing, while Nina’s will be
ready later this year.

As you will see from a quick look at the 2 versions,
the translators have adopted somewhat different
approaches, so there is merit in reading both.

Part of Nina’s translation has been published by the
Foundation (with a Foreword by Robert) under the title
‘Realities and Concepts’.

Jonothan

Links-
http://www.zolag.co.uk/
http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat.html




 
2761 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 5:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Jonathan,

Thanks for the secondary view.  
--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> >  wrote:
> > >  Almost always breath is concept when we are aware
> > of it.
> > > Especially when it is used as an object for
> > samattha and a
> > > nimitta arises this is obviously concept. 
> > You are saying here that in the beginning, the
> > meditator (samatha
> > bhavana) may have poramattha as aramana.  However,
> > since to develop the
> > samatha bhanvana further, nimita must appear, and
> > therefore, at this
> > point, it becomes pannati.  Is this about right?
> 
> Breath, it seems to me, is a concept.  Like with the
> concept ‘body’, it is possible that there can be
> awareness of one of the realities that we normally
> take for breath/body, and at such moments no concept
> of breath/body appears.  But there is no paramattha
> dhamma ‘breath’, just as there is no paramattha dhamma
> ‘body’.
> 
> Breath as object of samatha is a concept.  Breath as
> object of satipatthana, however, is a reference to
> awareness of one of the realities that we take for
> breath.
This certainly was my understanding on the subject.  Although the
understanding about Satipathanna was exact, but the samatha
understanding I had before was derived from an exposure to an
anapanasati technique, which could be way off from the technique that
may actually work.   The concentration on breath, as taught by the
school, certainly does not separate the porathamatha characteristics as
different dhatus.  Rather, it was taught as a whole aggregate: you
concentrate on the breath however way you can observe it: contact
(hardness), warmth (dejo), and motion (apo).

However, I am willing to take Robert's explanation as a hypothesis. 
Obviously, in order for this to be samatha, there must be panna
arising.   Now this gets slightly more interesting.  There is panna
rising with the citta cognizing a paramatha arammana, but the panna is
not at the satipatthana level, i.e., the fact that it is just a dhatu
and not self is not penetrated.  I didn't consider the possibility of
panna arising with citta cognizing a paramatha arammana not being
Satipatthana before.   Now, I ask you two (and anybody else), is this
possible?

After the breath becomes nimita (how does breath become nimita?  I
don't think anybody has answered this question yet, although I don't
need an answer anyway), the arammana is obviously pannati.  Also, as I
understand it, the breath becomes so fine that the paramatha
charactertics cannot be "observed" at some stage in the development
anyway.

> I think what Robert is saying here is that one reason
> why samatha bhavana with breath as object is so
> difficult is that it is easy to take what is not
> breath for breath, since there are all sorts of things
> happening around the tip of the nose.  
Understood what you said here...

> Knowledge of
> the difference between the 2 kinds of rupa
> (conditioned by citta vs. conditioned by utu) would be
> panna of the level of samatha bhavana, I suppose.
Don't understand how one can differentiate the two without any kind of
"special" nana, as Robert has said.  The dejo dhatu in the rupa kalapa
conditioned by citta (citta samuthana) almost immediately conditions
the rupa kalapa (utu-samuthana) to arise.  The poramatha
characteristics are identical.   How can you tell the differences?  
Actually, don't need an answer here either...

> The difference between these 2 kinds of rupa is of no
> significance in the development of satipatthana, since
> satipatthana does not require the arising of awareness
> in relation to any particular reality.  And as far as
> I know, the characteristic of, say, hardness, is the
> same whenever it appears to sati ie it does not differ
> according to its conditioning factor/s.
Now, this is expounded on so many time that this "appears" easy.  Whew,
at least there is no controversy.

Anumodhana for your help.

kom


 
2762 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 6:24pm
Subject: Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  > Thanks for this clarification.  I am relieved to hear
> that the original reference was to recitals rather
> than a mantras! (I don't know about dictionary
> definitions, but I believe the 2 terms are generally
> understood as having distinctly different meanings).


Dear Jonothan,

Could you elaborate?


> On the other point you mentioned-
> 
> >             I think she does 
> > every night, and she says any reflection on the
> > Buddha's beneficence 
> > is always good.
> 
> I am not clear what you are saying K Sujin does every
> night, but I wonder if it is something we should be
> concerned with?


I was answering Mike's question whether she recited herself.  
Personally it does not concern me.

Good to hear from you,

Amara

 
2763 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear kom,
I may confuse the issue more. I really hadn'y intended to imply
that the breath was not a pannatti rather to show just how those
type of rupas conditioned by citta are classified in paramattha
terms. I'll just go to your question: 
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Jonathan,
> 
> Thanks for the secondary view.  
> --- > This certainly was my understanding on the subject. 
Although
> the
> understanding about Satipathanna was exact, but the samatha
> understanding I had before was derived from an exposure to an
> anapanasati technique, which could be way off from the
> technique that
> may actually work.   The concentration on breath, as taught by
> the
> school, certainly does not separate the porathamatha
> characteristics as
> different dhatus.  Rather, it was taught as a whole aggregate:
> you
> concentrate on the breath however way you can observe it:
> contact
> (hardness), warmth (dejo), and motion (apo).

Yes this must be the way. I hope my post didn't sound like I was
suggesting that one should try to separate out which rupas were
conditioned by citta and which were not. It was meant to show
that it is possible to take what is not breath for breath.
Breath is a subtle object of samattha.

> 
> However, I am willing to take Robert's explanation as a
> hypothesis. 
> Obviously, in order for this to be samatha, there must be
> panna
> arising.   Now this gets slightly more interesting.  There is
> panna
> rising with the citta cognizing a paramatha arammana, but the
> panna is
> not at the satipatthana level, i.e., the fact that it is just
> a dhatu
> and not self is not penetrated.  I didn't consider the
> possibility of
> panna arising with citta cognizing a paramatha arammana not
> being
> Satipatthana before.   Now, I ask you two (and anybody else),
> is this
> possible?
> 
Certainly. When the 4 elements are taken as an object for
samattha they are not satipatthana. This is something that if
you hear discussed in more detail on a tape by Achran santi or
Sujin I would like to know more details on too. 


> After the breath becomes nimita (how does breath become
> nimita?  I
> don't think anybody has answered this question yet, although I
> don't
> need an answer anyway), the arammana is obviously pannati. 
> Also, as I
> understand it, the breath becomes so fine that the paramatha
> charactertics cannot be "observed" at some stage in the
> development
> anyway.
this is all explained in detail in the visuddhimagga section
Viii and also the Patisambhidhimagga.
Robert
> 


 
2764 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 7:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Three types of wisdom

 
  Dan

Thanks for this interesting (and provocative!) post.

I find your analogy of the picture a little
distracting.  The reference is I believe simply to
panna acquired through listening, thinking and mental
development.  Panna is panna, however acquired, but it
is important to know the different levels of panna.

I would not agree that it is necessary to deviate from
the Tipitaka.  Deviation surely connotes inconsistency
with.

The question, as ever, is what is the correct mental
development.  As you know, we spend a lot of time
discussing this.  When you refer to 'meditation
practice', do you mean samatha bhavana, vipasana
bhavana, or something else?

Jonothan

--- Dan Dalthorp <> wrote: > Vibhanga
discusses a number of different types of
> wisdom, including 
> sutamayapanna (wisdom through hearing),
> cintamayapanna (wisdom through 
> thinking), and a number of types of wisdom arising
> in the course of 
> practice as a result of direct experience, which I
> will refer to as 
> 'bhavanamayapanna' (I can't find that exact term in
> Vibhanga, but I've 
> heard it used by others, and it works well). 



 
2765 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 7:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Kom

 >             Although
> Samatha bhavana is NOT satipatthana, it can be a
> condition for
> Satipatthana to arise (in many different ways).

I think I must take issue with this statement!

I know that there are many ways in which one reality
can condition another.  For example, akusala can
condition kusala.  But in terms of understanding what
the Buddha taught about the path, I think your
statement is open to misconstruction.

The important thing to understand is that samatha
bhavana and vipassana bhavana are 2 different forms of
development requiring different levels of panna and
leading to different goals.  Samatha bhavana is in no
sense a prerequisite for vipassana.  Also, any idea
that by practising samatha one will be better equipped
to practise vipassana is I believe misconceived.

So for all practical purposes, I would suggest that it
is better to think of samatha as *not* being a
condition for satipatthana to arise.

Jonothan

PS  By the way, as our resident expert on paccaya, in
what (many) ways would you see samatha as conditioning
satipatthana?



 
2766 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Mike

Thanks as ever for your careful and thorough response
to my post.  Just one area I wanted to follow up on.

> > However, one can also get an idea of this
> difference
> > in levels of understanding from the suttas
> > themselves.
> > In many suttas the Buddha asks his listeners ‘Is
> > seeing now permanent or impermanent?’  and they
> are
> > able to answer ‘Impermanent’  (and the same for
> > visible object, contact, the feeling arising from
> > that
> > contact etc).  
> 
> O.K.  But isn't an affinity for impermanence and the
> other characterisics, one of the things that
> attracts
> us to the Dhamma now?

Yes.  But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at a
relatively superficial level.  It is not the panna
which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing and
at the same time has penetrated the true nature of
that reality to the degree that the characteristic of
impermanence is known.

For those listening to the Buddha, developed panna was
arising through the different doorways as he spoke. 
They had accumulated levels of panna in previous
lives, and had me the right conditions for those
accumulations to become manifest during the lifetime
of the Buddha.

I appreciate that there are many people today who
claim to understand impermanence, but they do so
without having studied the realities appearing through
the different doorways.  So I believe they are talking
about something different.

Jonothan


 
2767 From: kelvin liew peng chuan   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 8:42pm
Subject: Re:Vipassana Meditation

 
  While I was sweeping mindfully in the monastery,the elements suddenly became 
so clear. The air, fire , water and earth element of the body are so clear 
for a short moment and then vanished just as strangely as it arised.
There was sudden 'insight' that the movement of the hand is just a 
combination of intention and the working of elemets combined.in the hand 
itself there are clear distint features of the heaviness, the ability to 
move, warmth etc. This experience is enough to give saddha for futher 
investigation into the Dhamma.

 
2768 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:Vipassana Meditation

 
  Dear kelvin,
Thank you. It is nice to see that you realise that understanding
can arise even while doing something as mundane as sweeping. it
doesn't have to be in a temple either- it can be anywhere.

--- kelvin liew peng chuan  wrote:
> While I was sweeping mindfully in the monastery,the elements
> suddenly became 
> so clear. The air, fire , water and earth element of the body
> are so clear 
> for a short moment and then vanished just as strangely as it
> arised.

How clear was it? You see citta can only cognise one object at a
time. A process of cittas which cognise rupa is seventeen
moments. And then mind-door processes occur which also know this
object. But one set of processes knows only one rupa. For
instance it might know heat - and at that time impossible that
it could know air, vibration or hardness, earth. Fluidity, the
water element cannot be known through the bodydoor but only
through the mind-door.



> There was sudden 'insight' that the movement of the hand is
> just a 
> combination of intention and the working of elemets
> combined.in the hand 
> itself there are clear distint features of the heaviness, the
> ability to 
> move, warmth etc. This experience is enough to give saddha for
> futher 
> investigation into the Dhamma.
 _________
This may still be thinking about the elements that appear.
Thinking comes in much faster than we might realise.  It might
give you sadda in Dhamma, or it might just condition attachment
to a technique. 
You see, for instance, I am used to considering (occasionally)
the elements and how, because of intention arising (not self),
the hand moves to touch the computer. That there is no computer
just hardness and colour. This is understanding at the level of
considering (assuming it is being done with genuine kusala
citta). It is useful but if we think it is something higher we
will go astray.
Right now, while I am writing, there is awarenes of heat and
sensation in the area of the hands. But this is simply citta and
sanna experiencing these elements, not panna, at this moment.
Robert



 
2769 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Kom and Robert,

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> Thanks for reposting.  I have some questions for
> you.

Second that, Robert.  I remembert this quite well,
now, it's amazing how often something important I've
heard before seems brand-new when mentioned again from
a slightly different angle (as in Kom's excellent
post).  Guess this is one of the reasons we need to
hear these things again and again...

> Do you know of anyone who actually try to "observe"
> the differences
> between citta-samutthana and utu-samutthana rupa? 
> Are the differences
> actually observable via Satipatthana?  This is where
> I can understand
> how being unwise studying Abhidhamma could cause
> insanity...

Kom, I feel the same way when I think of 'trying to
observe' ANYTHING at the level of nama and rupa.  This
sense abates though, when I reflect that it's actually
just a nama, moving just as fast as the other namas
(and even faster than the rupas of course) that's
doing the observing...

mike


 
2770 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 9:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> I just remembered that I haven't gotten back to you
> on the mantra 
> recital as per 'Birth,...', or have I?

You have now, thanks!
 
> I
> think she does 
> every night, and she says any reflection on the
> Buddha's beneficence 
> is always good.

It has occurred to me that this (reflection)is the
proper use of puja.  I think the danger lies in
chanting to achieve samatha with somanassa, or in
chanting with the idea of supernatural results, or
with the idea that 'I'm chanting'--worst of all, the
combination of all three.

Thanks again for the follow-up.  It's always
instructive to hear of Khun Sujin's perspectives on
conventional, every-day 'practices' (I promise not to
'copy'...)

mike


 
2771 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 9:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  In high level meditation,
Vitaka has a function to suppress thina middha nivarana (sloth and torpor)
Vicara has a function to suppress vicikiccha nivarana (sceptic doubtful)

----- Original Message -----
From: 
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 12:26 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara
and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas


> ---  Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> > I have also heard the analogy of the Vitaka being the gong of a bell
> > when it is first struck, and Vicara being the echo of it.  Vitaka's
> > characteristics are more coarse than Vicara.
>
>    Dear friends,
>
>    I heard that Vitaka is like seeing a pen, but Vicara is knowing
> that pen very clearly: the material it's made of, from what country
> it's made of, how it's made, how it's shipped, ...
>
> Metta,
> Alex
>

 
 
2772 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 9:40pm
Subject: Holiday

 
  Dear group,
Just a note to let you know I am taking a little break from the
list - I really have to make time for other duties.  (or at
least I plan to take a break - it may be that habit makes me
look in)
I will be happy to reply to any mail direct to me for any
reason, anytime.
 For that purpose please use this address and put [private
note}on the subject heading. 

Otherwise see you when I get back/pop in.

Robert




 
2773 From: m. nease   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Dear Lee,

---  wrote:

> I next question to this is: Why must they? As
> someone answered that
> arahant is "heavier" to layperson or arahant will
> "die" in seven days 
> if he did not ordain. And someone mentioned that the
> seven-day 
> statement has no reference. Someone mentioned that
> arahant needs to 
> fend for his life and by entering the sangha will do
> for them. And 
> arahants live for others, too. 
> I think arahants live for no one but only for
> dhamma. From my hearsay
> (so please correct me if it is wrong), the seven-day
> period idea was 
> introduced by the sangha community years after the
> Buddha Parinibbana 
> for the sake to uphold the sangha status which is
> downfalling, 
> besides there was an idea then that layperson can
> achieve the same 
> fruitions and there is no need to be a monk.

Interesting question and points.  I'm afraid I don't
have any of the answers, though I think others have
addressed some of these issues recently.

I'll look forward to more...

mike


 
2774 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  > It's always
> instructive to hear of Khun Sujin's perspectives on
> conventional, every-day 'practices' (I promise not to
> 'copy'...)


Dear Mike, 

I think what she meant is that each person has his own accumulations 
and what works for one might not for another, as we studied in the 
four sampajanna, remember?  The only thing we can rely on is the 
study of the truth as the Buddha taught in the Tipitaka, and his 
reminder to study the realities that appear through the six dvara as 
they really are.  Moments of sati in are indeed very rapid as sati is 
a cetasika and therefore a nama that arises 17 times the rapidity of 
any rupa, as you observed, but there are things that he said could 
only be understood through the mind door, such as the experience of 
apo dhatu, the water element, whose characteristics are adhesion and 
saturation and bathing, cannot appear through any of the other dvara. 
 The eye, ear, nose tongue, each has its particular rupa as aramana.  
The body sense has more, temperature, hardness/softness, and 
motion/tension.  The rest can appear only through the mind dvara, it 
is no use trying to observe the unobservable, besides, there are 
already so much to study/be mindful of already, aren't there!!!  I am 
thinking of your trying to observe the differences between the rupa 
that arise from kamma and those that arise from utu and ahara, etc.  
If I remember correctly, Khun Sujin said they were intermingled in 
the human body, apart from the instant of birth where the first group 
of rupa arises from kamma, the same kamma that produced the 
patisandhi citta.  But the nama sati and panna, as you also observed, 
could study the characteristics of other nama, when they arise 
strongly enough, the ones being as fast as the other.  The thing is 
not to attach so much importance to the individual moments so as to 
keep thinking about this and that aspect of it afterwards, not 
realizing they are just thoughts.  Moments of sati arise to know the 
paramatthadhamma with the right conditions, for just that fleeting 
instant when one reality appears at a time, not the whole body or a 
hand which are concepts, but as visible object, touch, seeing, which 
you can test for yourself even in front of the computer.  Khun Sujin 
says that right understanding can arise anywhere, without exception, 
so all we have to do is let it happen, no matter what others say.  
Only we could know our own experiences, in the end.  

Anumodana in your studies, as usual,

Amara

 
2775 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 1:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Robert and Jonothan,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:

Thanks for your comments and for reposting Jonothan's
extraordinary post.  This is the best post I've seen
yet on this topic (& item #10 even hints strongly at
the 'robes' issue--and a hidden connection between
these issues), I think.  I went to save it in my
'Jonothan' directory, and found it was already
there--it was the first response Jonothan sent to me
when I was still quite new to the list.

I think it would be good to post this as a file on the
e-groups page--especially with as many references to
the tipitaka as possible--as a quick response to
curious newcomers who are bound to bring up this
question again and again.

So many of us came into the Theravada by way of modern
meditation schools which tend to present their
approaches--often (if not always) reductionistic and
rather radical as to interpretation--as being the
true, original buddhadhamma and a kind of solution to
modern misconceptions.  With this as a background, our
first look at understanding by way of the
abhidhamma-pitaka often gives the impression of a
really radical and intellectual approach.

It's no wonder that so many of us look askance, at
first, at at a truly ancient approach with its roots
in ALL of the dhamma-vinaya--not just a few selected
suttas--as one that turns 'the dhamma'
upside-down--instead of setting it upright, as I
believe it actually does.

I hope the two of you have developed paramis number
five and six, viriya and khanti, sufficiently to
continue repeating these points for the benefit of
those (I forget what we're called), who find the path
slow and difficult.

Saadhu!

mike


 
2776 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 2:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Visuddhimagga
> III, 29...says before beginning to develop samattha
> one should
> "sever any of the ten impediments". These are 
> 1. dwelling
> 2. family
> 3. students
> 4. building
> 5. travel
> 6. kin
> 7. affliction
> 8. books
> 9. gain
> the last one is supernormal powers but this is an 
> impediment only for vipassana not for samattha.

I found this a very interesting and pertinent quote,
and again one, I think, that has bearing on both the
'vs.' and the 'robes' threads.  Thanks for posting it.

mike

p.s. (This led me to read on in this passage in
Vissudhimagga--it's fascinating). 


 
2777 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 2:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Mike,

Point well taken, Sir...

kom
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > Do you know of anyone who actually try to "observe"
> > the differences
> > between citta-samutthana and utu-samutthana rupa? 
> > Are the differences
> > actually observable via Satipatthana?  This is where
> > I can understand
> > how being unwise studying Abhidhamma could cause
> > insanity...
> 
> Kom, I feel the same way when I think of 'trying to
> observe' ANYTHING at the level of nama and rupa.  This
> sense abates though, when I reflect that it's actually
> just a nama, moving just as fast as the other namas
> (and even faster than the rupas of course) that's
> doing the observing...
> 
> mike



 
2779 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 2:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear Lee,

---  wrote:

> I think samatha is indetermined. When you developed
> samatha, calm, 
> peace and tranquility are gained. Whether it is
> miccha samadhi or 
> not, I think, it is driven by the miccha ditthi or
> samma ditthi.
> 
> "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with
> its supports & 
> requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind
> equipped with these 
> seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right
> speech, right 
> action, right livelihood, right effort, & right
> mindfulness -- is 
> called noble right concentration with its supports &
> requisite 
> conditions." 
> -- MN 117 

Thank you for this lovely citation.  I can think of no
reflection so valuable as the Buddha's own words on
the subject of the Eightfold Path.

Saadhu, Sir!

mike


 
2780 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 3:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear Alex,

---  wrote:

>    The reason it's difficult to attain any level of
> jhana is because 
> the practitioner has to be born with 3 hetus: no
> dosa, no moha, and 
> no avijja.  Then, if he chooses to do samatha
> bhavana, he may reach 
> any level of jhana, or if he chooses to follow the
> Buddha's 
> teachings, he'll achieve the path and fruit of
> liberation.
> 
>    Since nowadays, most of us were born with 2
> hetus: no dosa and no 
> moha, we need to study Dhamma so that panna may
> develop.  Then, in 
> the future life times, we may be reborn with 3
> hetus.  In another 
> words, we need to work on our Paramis so that better
> conditions may 
> arise later.

Thanks for bringing up this important point.  I've
only just recently read about it in Abhidhamma in
Daily Life.  This surely requires more understanding
on my part.

mike


 
2781 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 3:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch.s 6&7

 
  Saadhu!

--- amara chay  wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> Almost forgot to report: NVG's 'Abhidhamma' ch.s 6&7
> up last night, 
> intermediate section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Amara
> 


 
2782 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 3:57am
Subject: Private Note

 
  Dear Robert,

I know you're trying to get away, but:

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> "...Panna...brings
> about, by
> endeavoring, the manifestation of the path"

I think you said earlier that 'right effort' is
achieved by paññaa.  Was that ('bringing about by
endeavouring') in reference to this?

Thanks...mike




 
2783 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 4:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Holiday

 
  Dear Robert & friends,

Well Robert's break is really well deserved...I doubt
he's had a day off the list since it started. Robert,
we'll TRY to manage without you for a little while! 

I'm afraid I ned to regularly take breaks to catch up
with work and other commitments, but Sunday (my one
day off) is usually a good day to catch up with
reading and here I am on Monday at 4am up and
determined to catch up on some posting!

Sarah

 --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Dear
group,
> Just a note to let you know I am taking a little
> break from the
> list - I really have to make time for other duties. 
> (or at
> least I plan to take a break - it may be that habit
> makes me
> look in)
> I will be happy to reply to any mail direct to me
> for any
> reason, anytime.
>  For that purpose please use this address and put
> [private
> note}on the subject heading. 
> 
> Otherwise see you when I get back/pop in.
> 
> Robert
> 


 
2784 From: Metta Jon   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 5:15am
Subject: Re: Precepts - Intoxicants

 
  Jonathan,

You asked for scriptural references?

The first one that comes to mind is Dhammapada 247-248 (Chapter 18,
[Impurities],  verses 12-13): 

"Whosoever in this world destroys life, tells lies, takes what is 
not given, goes to another's wife, and is given to the use of 
intoxicants, such a one digs up his own roots in this world." 

A reference that really spells things out is in the Dhammika Sutta
of the Sutta Nipata (Sn.398-399):

"The layman who joyfully abides in self-control, knowing that the
use of intoxicants results in loss of self-control, should not
indulge in taking intoxicants, nor should he cause others to do so,
nor approve of others so doing.  Fools commit evil deeds as a result
of intoxication, and cause others who are negligent to do the same.
One should avoid this occasion for evil, this madness, this delusion,
this joy of fools."

Also from the Sutta Nipata (Maha Mangala Sutta, Sn.264):

"...to abstain from intoxicants, and to be diligent in virtue,
these are the Highest Blessings."

There are some Westerners who are attracted to Buddhism, but who
wish to believe that the precept is to abstain from intoxication,
but the wording of the precept clearly says that one abstains 
from the use of intoxicants, which are the occasion for heedlessness.

One or two people tried to tell me that if someone is a "Bodhisattva
with a high level of realization" that they could drink alcohol and
not be affected."  My response to that is: if they have such a high
level of realization, then they would have no attachment to or 
craving for alcohol, and thus would not drink it.  One man said to 
me: "But the Buddha was enlightened, and he still ate food."  To
which i responded: "Food is necessary for life; alcohol is not.  The
Buddha ate food so that he could support his body and mind to teach
the Dhamma (Dharma) to others."  Had i been in a sarcastic frame of
mind, i could have said, "When YOU become a Bodhisattva with a high
level of realization, then talk to me about it."

Some Buddhists will tell you that enlightened beings don't need to
follow precepts.  This is true, but ONLY because their behavior
automatically conforms to the Dhamma.  When your character is such
that killing, stealing, lying, etc., are IMPOSSIBLE for you to 
commit, then you don't need the precepts to tell you not to do those
things--because you wouldn't do them anyway.  The great sage named
Bodhidharma was quoted as saying: "Buddhas don't keep precepts; 
Buddhas don't break precepts."

i hope that this helps anyone who is interested in this subject.

Sukhita hotha,

Metta Jon Maslow



---  Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> Dear All
> 
> Some time ago there was discussion here about the
> reason for the inclusion of the avoidance of
> intoxicants in the 5 precepts.
> 
> Recently I came across an old BPS Newsletter with an
> article by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the subject of sobriety. 
> In it he explains the reason for the laying down of
> the precept.  He says-
> 
> To dispel any doubt about his reasons for prescribing
> this precept, the Buddha has written the explanation
> into the rule itself:  one is to refrain from the use
> of intoxicating drinks and drugs because they are the
> cause of heedlessness (pamaada).  Heedlessness means
> moral recklessness, disregard for the bounds between
> right and wrong.  It is the loss of heedfulness
> (appamaada), moral scrupulousness based on a keen
> perception of the dangers in unwholesome states. …
> [ends]
> 
> Bh Bodhi goes on to say that to indulge in
> intoxicating drinks is to risk falling away from each
> of the 3 stages of the path – morality, concentration
> and wisdom [ie sila, samadhi and panna].
> 
> If anyone comes across any actual Tipitaka references,
> please share with us.

 
2785 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 5:26am
Subject: Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  Dear Mike & friends,

New year seems a long time and many posts back but I
appreciated your timely New Year reference to The
Upaddha Sutta (Half of the Holy Life). 

'When a monk has admirable people as friends,
companions  & colleagues, he can be expected to
develop & pursue the noble eightfold path..' It talks
about how having these friends is actually 'the whole
of the holy life'.

So what is meant by 'holy life' and what is meant here
by 'monk'? I'd need to read the commentary notes to be
quite sure, but in many suttas, we are told that the
holy life refers to the eightfold path and those who
have followed the eightfold path (and reached stages
of enlightenment) are those that have followed the
holy life. This reminds me of the ultimate meaning of
sangha which also refers to the same individuals.

In the same way, we need to consider what is meant by
'bhikkhu' when it seems so often that it is only monks
that are being referred to. I'm just looking at the
commentary notes to the Satipatthana Sutta. Here it
says 'Bhikkhu is a term to indicate a person who
earnestly endeavours to accomplish the practice of the
teaching. Others, gods and men, too, certainly strive
earnestly to accomp;ish the practice of the teaching,
but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by
way of prctice, the master said 'Bhikkhu'....'He who
practises this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness
is called a bhikkhu'....'Accordingly it is said:

    "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm,
     Tamed, humble,pure,a man who does no harm
     To aught that lives, that one's a brahmin true.
     An ascetic and mendicant too'Dhp142

In the comm notes to the Samannaphala Sutta (Fruit of
recluseship) which I'm reading along with many other
books, in my grasshopper fashion, it talks about the
meaning of recluseship:

'in the ultimate sense, recluseship is the path and
the fruit of recluseship is the noble fruit.  As it is
said:  'What , bhikhus, is recluseship? It is this
Noble Eightfold Path...' '

It also talks here about the 3 kinds of solitude, i.e.
bodily (kayaviveka), mental (cittaviveka) and ultimate
solitude (upadhiviveka) for those  persons 'who have
gone beyone formations' (i.e. attained Nibbana).

The reason I'm mentioning these is not because anyone
has implied anything to the contrary but just to
reflect how carefully we need to read the Suttas. When
it seems that the Buddha is only talking to the monks,
it MAY not be the case.

Even with commentary notes and the Pali it is not
always easy and the reading will very much depend on
one's understanding at the time. Ages(?) ago there was
some discussion on the list (after a death in O's
family) on the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (A Single Excellent
Night), Maj Nik 131.  It talks about how death can
come at any time, but one who 'dwells' ardently can be
said to have had an excellent night. I'd read all the
comm notes and checked the pali and still didn't
understand why it should just refer to the night and
not the day. In Bangkok they checked the Thai and here
it referred to night and day and K.Sujin explained
that night refers to a 24hr period as in booking a
hotel for 2nts!  I don't expect this to be of any
interest to many (except perhaps Jim A), but it's just
an example of how suttas are not as easy to read as
some may think and a reason why it can be hard to read
correctly without some knowledge of abhidhamma!

Sarah

p.s. Jim A, welcome back after your hol. Hope it was a
good one and that your home is not too frozen up after
the break. After living such a quiet life the rest of
the year it must take some 'adjustment' when you hit
the city!!


 
2786 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 6:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Dan, Jonothan & Amara,

I have tried (with little success) to find further
rreferences on the bhaya nana theme. I couldn't find
anything in Atthasalani. There are however many suttas
which talk about fear and always with unwholesome
connotations. For example, the Bhayabherava Autta
(Fear and Dread) Maj Nik 4 talks about the fear
experienced by worldlings in the jungle:

'..Whenever recluses or brahmins unpurified in verbal
conduct...unpurified in mental conduct...unpurified in
livelihood rsort to remote jungle-thicket resting
places in the forest...they evoke unwholesome fear and
dread.  But ...I am purified in livelihood.  I resort
to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest
as one of the noble ones with livelihood purified'..

Just one more short quote from Ang Nik bk of 6s:

'Fear (bhaya), pain, disease, blain (?), bondage, bog
(?) are names
For sense-desires to which the worldlings cling.
They who see fear in grasping (upadana)- source of
birth
And death - grasp not and, ending both, are freed;
Won is the peace, blissful in perfect cool
They dwell here now, all fear and hate long gone,
All ill surpassed.'

These suttas are only indirectly relevant I know. I
also understand that what may seem an obvious
interpretation of the Vis quote to us may be
interpreted in a different way by Dan, others on the
list and also by Mahasi Sayadaw and many other great
scholars. Indeed, Nyanaponika Thera as translator to
Mahasi's 'Progress of Insight' talks about how the
meditational practice begins with a 'few selected
subjects of body-contemplation, which are retained up
to the very end of the road.....and the vision deepens
until the insight knowledges unfold themselves in due
order, as a natural outcome of the practice.' This is
in contradiction to the practice as understood and
discussed by some of us here.

Nyanaponika and Mahasi Sayadaw were extremely learned
and scholarly and there is no question of their not
having studied the Tipitaka. However, as we've
discussed before many times on the list, it is the
understanding with which one reads the Tipitaka that
is the key and I think we have to accept that on this
subject we read the same verse from the Vis with
different understandings.

Dan, I appreciate your sincere efforts to explain your
understanding and I'm sure many here will agree with
and appreciate them.

For myself, I was 'brought up' on the Mahasi
teachings. Indeed my first Buddhist teacher was
Munindra in Bodh Gaya. Munindra had studied in Burma
with Mahadsi for a very long time and the meditation
practice I followed was as described by Nyanaponika
and others. Munindra wa one of the kindest, sweetest
people I've ever met. For months in Bodh Gaya, I'd
follow his instructions and often have a simple lunch
with him and discuss anything relating to my
experiences or reading. I am very grateful to him for
all his help. He was also teaching aspects of the
Tipitaka to Goenka at the time.

Later I continued my meditation practice in earnest in
a temple in Sri lanka. I've already said enough on
this on the list. Suffice it to say that I didn't have
Mike's mischievous bent at that time and as the
'perfect' meditator, followed the instructions from
4am (maybe where I learnt to be an early riser!) to
nightfull. After a few months I was ticking off those
stages with full encouragement of the head monk and
Munindra whom I occasionally corresponded with.

So it was a real shock when I started really studying
and considering the Teachings as I now understand them
and finding out there wasn't even any understanding of
nama as nama and rupa as rupa, let alone the
difference or higher levels of knowledge. I never
admitted to Nina when, soon afterwards, I went to stay
with her or to Khun Sujin or to anyone else that I'd
had these false ideas of grandeur. However, I think
these experiences and this misunderstanding is common
and very dangerous. 

On the subject of concord or lack of it (Mike this
post may not be to your liking in this regard!), 
Jonothan recently pointed out a lack of concord
discussed in B.Bodhi's introduction to his
Abhidamattha Sangaha.  The 2 main commentaries he
looked to were one written by a Sri Lankan in the 12th
century and one written by Ledi Sayadaw (not to be
confused w/ Mahasi but I THINK in the same lineage?).
These 2 commentaries often take opposite stands in
'their handling of technical questions, the Ledi
Sayadaw commentary launching a sustained critique of
the older work.' B.Bodhi has tried to focus on the
convergances, but obviously it was not always easy.  

To me, this list is an excellent place to air these
areas of discord or different understanding and I hope
we can all appreciate each others' sincere efforts to
understand the heart of the teachings.

Sarah

p.s (I always seem to have one) Mike, some humour and
lighter side would have been a big improvement all
around at that time!

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: >
Dhd5
>           Mahasi clearly
> > indicated that the 
> > bhaya-nana is knowledge of a directly experienced
> > fear: "[The yogi's] 
> > mind itself is gripped by fear and seems
> helpless."
> > This accords more 
> > closely to my reasoning and experience than do
> your
> > deviations from 
> > Tipitaka. Your deviation from Tipitaka is writing
> > that the bhaya-nana 
> > is not derived from a real, directly experienced
> > fear, that it 
> > is not wisdom regarding a real, directly
> experienced
> > fear. Please note 
> > that I do not say that you contradict Tipitaka,
> only
> > that you are 
> > extrapolating or deviating from Tipitaka. Your
> > extrapolation differs 
> > from Mahasi's, and it differs from mine, but to
> the
> > best of my 
> > knowledge, none of the extrapolations contradicts
> > Tipitaka.
> 
> I don’t know if you would agree, but it seems to me
> that the 2 commentaries – Buddhaghosa’s and Mahasi
> Sayadaw’s – are mutually exclusive, ie they can’t
> both
> be right.  So it is perhaps a question as to which
> of
> the 2 accords more fully with the Tipitaka.  As far
> as
> I know, Buddhaghosa has never been faulted on this
> score in the 1500 years or so that the Visuddhimagga
> has been around.  But it will be interesting to see
> what Amara comes up with in her search of the
> Attasalini.
> 
> Jonothan



 
2787 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 6:46am
Subject: Welcomes & 1st names

 
  Dear Dan, Kelvin and Lee,

Now for something lighter!! I've been enjoying all
your posts. Thank you all for giving your names and
sharing any information about yourselves. We try to
see this list more as a friendly group of colleagues
trying to help each other rather than as aliens in
cyberspace! We (perhaps I should say I - I'm really
not qualified to talk for others) also really
appreciate hearing different views because these can
help us to question our own understanding better, so
please keep up your good posts and don't be
intimidated by any dissent!

Kelvin, are you based in Penang now? For years in the
70s we (ane esp. Jonothan) used to send out books by
Nina VG to groups and individuals in Penang who were
very appreciative. After he left Bangkok the link
seemed to be cut. It would be nice if some of those
people were to join us here. Thankyou for sharing your
experiences.

Lee, 'ni hou' You're in Taiwan, right? If you (or
anyone else) passes through Hong kong, pls be sure to
meet up with us! You've obviously studied a lot and
widely. may i ask how you've become interested in
Theravada with your Chinese & Mahayana background 

Dan, anytime you feel inclined to tell us a little
more 'history' or background, we'd all be glad I'm
sure.

Best wishes,
Sarah




2788 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 7:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: samatha

 
  Dear friends,

SAMATHA
The only point I rally want to add to this discussion
is that I think the emphasis for either kind of
bhavana (mental development, i.e. samatha or
vipassana) should be on understanding right from the
beginning. 

Just as it is useless for us to try to emulate the
lifestyle of the arahat or to spend much time
analysing what experiencing nibbana is like, I think
it's equally useless to try to emulate the lifestyle
of those experiencing jhanas or to spend too much time
considering what the experience is.

Right now, is there any understanding of samatha or
any samatha arising? As Kom has mentioned several
times, unless the citta (mental consciousness) is
kusala (wholesome) then the answer is no. If we relax
and listen to good music we can feel vey calm. Is it
kusala? No. Even though it seems calm, in fact there
is restlessness accompaning the citta at those
moments. (Of course there CAN be moments of panna in
between). This is also true when we're hiking (as i
did yesterday) or doing Tai Chi or concentrating on an
object in a meditation practice if there is no
understanding. As Robert (?) pointed out, samadhi can
be kusala or akusala (unwholesome), but without right
understanding during the prctice it is bound to be the
latter.

We know that for samatha to arise, the object of citta
must be one of the 40 objects discussed in the texts.
So we need to know what these objects are and how they
can calm the mind at this moment. This is the way, as
I understand it, that samatha can begin to develop. We
really don't need to concern ourselves with higher
levels except as a matter of academic interest. For
example, breath as object is considered the hardest
and it says in the Vis that full mastery of this
object only comes naturally to Buddhas and their like
(sth like that).

If we just stare at a red kasina, for sure there will
not be any samatha developed because there is no
understanding of this object and how it calms.

However, if we reflect on the Buddha (one of the 10
recollections as objects of smatha) and in particular.
reflect on his qualities and how he made the Teachings
available for us, it may condition calm at this
moment.  If we reflect on death and how it may come at
any moment, taking away all that is dear to us, and
how we cannot take our family, friends and goods, it
may alsocondition calmness. (It may condition
aversion, too!) It depends on our characters what
reflection may bring about a moment of samatha. just a
moment and then gone. This is the way it can BEGIN to
develop in daily life. These are just two examples I
find helpful.

All kinds of kusala are a support for each other
(upanissaya?) because at any moment of kusala there is
no akusala. The mind is calm for that moment. However,
even the highest levels of samatha will not bring
about the development of vipassana without
understanding of vipassana. As has been mentioned,
many attained these high levels of samatha before the
Buddha's time, but without the Budddha, still had the
idea of self. They had no understanding of realities.

I'm not sure if there is anything here which hasn't
already been said better...

Sarah

p.s. too much sitting and my tum's beginning to
rumble, so I'll leave any others til later! 




2789 From: bruce   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 8:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: samatha

 
  hi sarah

thanks for summarizing these important points...i have a much clearer idea
of what samatha is (and what it isn't), from these discussions, and this
post puts it all together nicely...

bruce


At 07:19 2001/01/08 +0800, you wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> SAMATHA
> The only point I rally want to add to this discussion
> is that I think the emphasis for either kind of
> bhavana (mental development, i.e. samatha or
> vipassana) should be on understanding right from the
> beginning. 
> 
> Just as it is useless for us to try to emulate the
> lifestyle of the arahat or to spend much time
> analysing what experiencing nibbana is like, I think
> it's equally useless to try to emulate the lifestyle
> of those experiencing jhanas or to spend too much time
> considering what the experience is.
> 
> Right now, is there any understanding of samatha or
> any samatha arising? As Kom has mentioned several
> times, unless the citta (mental consciousness) is
> kusala (wholesome) then the answer is no. If we relax
> and listen to good music we can feel vey calm. Is it
> kusala? No. Even though it seems calm, in fact there
> is restlessness accompaning the citta at those
> moments. (Of course there CAN be moments of panna in
> between). This is also true when we're hiking (as i
> did yesterday) or doing Tai Chi or concentrating on an
> object in a meditation practice if there is no
> understanding. As Robert (?) pointed out, samadhi can
> be kusala or akusala (unwholesome), but without right
> understanding during the prctice it is bound to be the
> latter.
> 
> We know that for samatha to arise, the object of citta
> must be one of the 40 objects discussed in the texts.
> So we need to know what these objects are and how they
> can calm the mind at this moment. This is the way, as
> I understand it, that samatha can begin to develop. We
> really don't need to concern ourselves with higher
> levels except as a matter of academic interest. For
> example, breath as object is considered the hardest
> and it says in the Vis that full mastery of this
> object only comes naturally to Buddhas and their like
> (sth like that).
> 
> If we just stare at a red kasina, for sure there will
> not be any samatha developed because there is no
> understanding of this object and how it calms.
> 
> However, if we reflect on the Buddha (one of the 10
> recollections as objects of smatha) and in particular.
> reflect on his qualities and how he made the Teachings
> available for us, it may condition calm at this
> moment.  If we reflect on death and how it may come at
> any moment, taking away all that is dear to us, and
> how we cannot take our family, friends and goods, it
> may alsocondition calmness. (It may condition
> aversion, too!) It depends on our characters what
> reflection may bring about a moment of samatha. just a
> moment and then gone. This is the way it can BEGIN to
> develop in daily life. These are just two examples I
> find helpful.
> 
> All kinds of kusala are a support for each other
> (upanissaya?) because at any moment of kusala there is
> no akusala. The mind is calm for that moment. However,
> even the highest levels of samatha will not bring
> about the development of vipassana without
> understanding of vipassana. As has been mentioned,
> many attained these high levels of samatha before the
> Buddha's time, but without the Budddha, still had the
> idea of self. They had no understanding of realities.
> 
> I'm not sure if there is anything here which hasn't
> already been said better...
> 
> Sarah
> 
> p.s. too much sitting and my tum's beginning to
> rumble, so I'll leave any others til later! 
> 


 
2790 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 9:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  Dear Sarah,

>p.s. Jim A, welcome back after your hol. Hope it was a
>good one and that your home is not too frozen up after
>the break. After living such a quiet life the rest of
>the year it must take some 'adjustment' when you hit
>the city!!

Thanks! It's good to get away every once in a while and be reminded about
what life is like in the city and then come back to the quiet and solitude
of a wintry home in the forest. It took about 4 hours to thaw the place out
with a blazing fire in the wood-burning stove. Outside, it has been very
cold for many weeks and the snow continues to pile up higher and higher.

Still pondering over that bhaddekaratta word, eh? There is the word
'ahorattam' in the previous line of the same verse which Horner translates
as 'day and night'. It could be connected to the 'ratta' of bhaddekaratta.
Lately, I have been trying to read little bits of the Abhidhammatthasangaha
in Pali and can't help but notice just how condensed and difficult it is
with all those unfamiliar technical terms. I find it easier to read and
follow the Dhammasangani.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2791 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:42am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > I'm sending this off-list because I don't want to
> alienate anyone by seeming to attack a particular
> school/teacher:

> > The Commentaries certainly do not, while saying that
> > 'The 
> > yogi's mind itself is gripped by fear and seems
> > helpless' is both 
> > full of the atta and dosa, and no panna whatever,
> > how could you say 
> > that such akusala is necessary to panna?  Never
> > according to the 
> > Tipitaka and/or commentaries.
> 
> I think this may be more significant than I thought at
> first.  As an erstwhile Mahasi student, I was always
> impressed by his sincerity.  If he said, speaking from
> experience (which I think was his habit) that 'The
> yogi's mind itself is gripped by fear and seems
> helpless', I'm inclined to believe him.  And I wonder
> if the fear he experienced may have been aroused by an
> inkling of the result of the kamma of carefully (even
> relentlessly) cultivating (for distribution, no less)
> and extremely severe miccha-ditthi.


Don't worry about it too much, Mike, but you did send it on the list 
instead of in private.  I have come to realize that we are probably 
one in a million in this line of Tipitaka study and application in  
daily life, and we could never convince everyone who claims to study 
the Buddha's teachings that this is what he taught.  Besides it is 
indeed the age of decline of the sasana, and all we can do is each 
our part to help others as best we can to understand better while we 
are still here.  You will find many more people like ourselves  
joining us, and even as we had to start over, (even for me who have 
never studied with anyone else, I had my preconception of Buddhism 
that I had to get rid of before I could understand realities) so will 
many of them.  We are luckier than most that we still have most of  
the teachings and commentaries available while in some places they 
never had such benefits.  Let us all help each other along the way 
towards the common goal, the perfect understanding of the truth, and  
may we all see the right reasoning and understanding that leads to 
right experiencing of realities, 

Amara

 
2792 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:48am
Subject: Re: Precepts - Intoxicants

 
  > You asked for scriptural references?

> Metta Jon Maslow


Hi! Metta Jon, and welcome!

Thanks for the references and comments, Anumodana,

Amara

 
2793 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 11:00am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > I have tried (with little success) to find further
> rreferences on the bhaya nana theme. I couldn't find
> anything in Atthasalani. 


Dear Sarah,

Neither could I.  My appologies to all, it must be my terrible memory 
because all there were were descriptions of what each of the nanas 
abandons, not the description of what the experiencing is like.

Actually some of the descriptions of the harm were more horrible that 
lions and tigers, but still commented on as the knowledge of the 
fear, not the 'helpless' frozen kind because the knowledge brings 
release from ignorance, one does 'help' oneself from the situation.

Thanks for the research, anumodana,

Amara

 
2794  
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 1:56pm
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear Amara,

   Thank you for the quote from the Summary.  It totally agrees with 
what I've learned so far from my other Abhidhamma teachers.

Anumodana,
Alex

 
2795 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 4:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  --- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
 It took about 4
> hours to thaw the place out
> with a blazing fire in the wood-burning stove.
> Outside, it has been very
> cold for many weeks and the snow continues to pile
> up higher and higher.
> 
reminds me too much of a survival program we watched
last Sat when the 'star' was stranded in the Rockies
in these conditions.... still I'm sure it's nice and
snug once that fire is blazing....


> Still pondering over that bhaddekaratta word, eh?
> There is the word
> 'ahorattam' in the previous line of the same verse
> which Horner translates
> as 'day and night'. It could be connected to the
> 'ratta' of bhaddekaratta.

I think Miss Horner is right....as i said, the night
only didn't make sense unless u'stood this way...


> Lately, I have been trying to read little bits of
> the Abhidhammatthasangaha
> in Pali and can't help but notice just how condensed
> and difficult it is
> with all those unfamiliar technical terms. I find it
> easier to read and
> follow the Dhammasangani.

I had 2 older Abhidhamatthasangaha translations & had
also found it tough going. The translation by B.Bodhi
I find a real treat by comparison; beautifully laid
out and in good English w/gd notes. But then you're
probably reading it in Pali. do you have the comm.note
in Pali too?

Good to have you back on 'board'...you certainly
caught up quickly!

Sarah





 
2796 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 4:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  I'd just like to chip in here with a comment on one of
the references to 'fear' quoted by Sarah.

> Just one more short quote from Ang Nik bk of 6s:
> 
> 'Fear (bhaya), pain, disease, blain (?), bondage,
> bog
> (?) are names
> For sense-desires to which the worldlings cling.
> They who see fear in grasping (upadana)- source of
> birth
> And death - grasp not and, ending both, are freed;
> Won is the peace, blissful in perfect cool
> They dwell here now, all fear and hate long gone,
> All ill surpassed.'

Good quote.  Is it possible that the reference to
'those who see fear in grasping (upadana)' is a
reference to seeing fear without experiencing fear of
the dosa type?

Jonothan


 
2797 From: shinlin   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 4:51pm
Subject: Re:New year resolution

 
  Dear Dhamma friends,
    It is already New Years. Usually before meeting and hearing dhamma, I would usually think of new year resolutions for the next year. BUT things has changed after understanding the dhamma. At the beginning, I thought Dhamma would change my life for the better. BUT all that was the wrong view of learning dhamma. I have realized that learning the dhamma is not expecting or wanting for a change but understanding the truth of everything and realities, which enhance the understanding of anattaness of everything and development of the right view. Lately, Archan Sujin taught us how to really understand and contemplate the realities as it is. And from there, I have realized that I have been only understanding dhamma at the level of thinking, and not the real contemplating and understanding of realities. From these past lessons, I have realized that many of our dhamma friends are in the same situation as me. Therefore today, I have decided on advising everyone my misunderstanding of dhamma, in hoping this can allow you to ponder yourself whether if it is really understanding the realities or you think you understand the realities. This is very important because thinking that you understand, includes a big self in there. I am not here to attack anybody or cause any akusula citta for anyone, and if my letter has attack any of you, pls forgive me because my intentions are not to offend you in any ways.
with metta,
shin
Ms.Shin Lin
Zebra Computer Company Limited
1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd
Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400
Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines )
Fax : 66-2-6516001
company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/



 
 
2798 From: selamat   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 7:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:New year resolution

 
  Dear Shinlin, and all dhamma friends,
Anumodana for your understanding the real understanding of realities.
 
muditacittena,
selamat rodjali
----- Original Message ----- 
From: shinlin 
To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com 
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 3:51 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:New year resolution


Dear Dhamma friends,
    It is already New Years. Usually before meeting and hearing dhamma, I would usually think of new year resolutions for the next year. BUT things has changed after understanding the dhamma. At the beginning, I thought Dhamma would change my life for the better. BUT all that was the wrong view of learning dhamma. I have realized that learning the dhamma is not expecting or wanting for a change but understanding the truth of everything and realities, which enhance the understanding of anattaness of everything and development of the right view. Lately, Archan Sujin taught us how to really understand and contemplate the realities as it is. And from there, I have realized that I have been only understanding dhamma at the level of thinking, and not the real contemplating and understanding of realities. From these past lessons, I have realized that many of our dhamma friends are in the same situation as me. Therefore today, I have decided on advising everyone my misunderstanding of dhamma, in hoping this can allow you to ponder yourself whether if it is really understanding the realities or you think you understand the realities. This is very important because thinking that you understand, includes a big self in there. I am not here to attack anybody or cause any akusula citta for anyone, and if my letter has attack any of you, pls forgive me because my intentions are not to offend you in any ways.
with metta,
shin
Ms.Shin Lin
Zebra Computer Company Limited
1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd
Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400
Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines )
Fax : 66-2-6516001
company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/

 
 
2799 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  From time to time, I find it interesting to compare Theravada 
teachings with Christian teachings. By and large, I've found a large 
degree of concord between the two traditions, although the language 
and approaches are strikingly dissimilar. [In addition, Theravada 
gives much clearer directions about the path.] 

One of the 10 Commandments in Christianity is: "You shall not bear 
false witness against your neighbor," which is generally understood to 
mean "tell the truth." However, it has an additional meaning as well 
(one that I find quite wholesome), viz. we should not claim to know 
what someone else is thinking or what is motivating them. If we do so, 
we are in essence falsely claiming to be able to witness directly what 
is in their mind--an impossibility for us unenlightened beings. This 
may be "why" a meditation teacher of mine used to say things like 
"Sometimes a meditator will do such and such indicating such and such 
wrong view" instead of saying "Dan, you are doing such and such 
because you have such and such wrong view." In making such a claim 
about what I am doing, he might be right or might be wrong, but in 
either case he'd have been "bearing false witness." This 
interpretation is also in fitting with MN 139 where the Buddha exorts 
us not to disparage or extol others, but instead talk only about the 
Dhamma, saying things like "Such and such are wholesome activities; 
such and such are unwholesome." If we keep the talk focused on Dhamma 
and not what we perceive other people's interpretations of Dhamma to 
be based on their translation of their experiences into WORDS [of all 
things!], the words into our ears, our ears into our brains, where the 
words get reconstructed according to our prejudices and personal 
experiences. After this long and complex process, we are almost 
assured to misunderstand and misrepresent others' views.

 
2800 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 8:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  Dear Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> > Thanks for this clarification.  I am relieved to
> hear
> > that the original reference was to recitals rather
> > than a mantras! (I don't know about dictionary
> > definitions, but I believe the 2 terms are
> generally
> > understood as having distinctly different
> meanings).
> 
> 
> Dear Jonothan,
> 
> Could you elaborate?

Well it's conditioned a lot of thinking about my one
experience of mantra chanting and I'm scratching my
head (as Mike would say) trying unsuccesfully to
remember the words.

Back 25yrs to those Bodh Gaya days, I had gone for a
retreat from the retreat to Rajghir. One day I climbed
Vulture's Peak and at the top there was a beautiful
and very simple white Japanese temple. I decided to
stay a couple of days and remember the lovely noodles
and little dishes and of course everything was
spotlessly clean. The only rule seemed to be that we
had to rise early early (o.k. no problem for me), but
while half asleep, we had to beat drums and gongs to a
rhythm while chanting the mantra...sth rae sth sth sth
sth sth (sorry, maybe there was more lobha for the
noodles which I could describe exactly!). 

Anyway, I tried hard but I was quite hopeless at
putting it all together, especially when we started
beating the drums and gongs and repeating the mantra
WHILST climbing a steep, rocky path to the very top!

Mike or someone else may remember the mantra. I JUST
found out that Jonothan had a similar experience
staying there with Phra Dhammadharo (who didn't need
to  follow the ritual). Jonothan did and remembers the
drums but not the mantra either.

Amara, the Hare Krishna and T-M people also use
mantras composed of a few words repeated over and over
again (not necessarily with any meaning) to bring
about some change of consciousness. I had thought at
the time that the mantra at the Japanese temple was in
Japanese, but now I know a little more about Chinese
and Japanese, I doubt it, as they were all
monosyllabic sounds. I never checked whether there was
any meaning. Actually it was quite fun and I'd happily
repeat the experience!

You know about recitals as you were brought up with
them!

Sarah
> 



 
2801 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Mahasi and Goenka

 
  Anumodana, Goenkaji! Anumodana, Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw! I rejoice at the 
wondrous work you have done spreading Dhamma and goodwill to thousands 
and thousands of people for their lasting benefit. If only we could 
all be such magnificent knights of Dhamma, helping people liberate 
themselves from suffering.

 
2802 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:New year resolution

 
  Shin

Good post, and anumodana in your kusala.

Just a reminder to you and others.  When replying to
an incoming message, please remember to delete
non-relevant material.  Your message came with the
whole of today's daily digest attached!

Jonothan

--- shinlin  wrote: > Dear Dhamma
friends,
>     It is already New Years. Usually before meeting
> and hearing dhamma, I
> would usually think of new year resolutions for the
> next year. BUT things
> has changed after understanding the dhamma. At the
> beginning, I thought
> Dhamma would change my life for the better. BUT all
> that was the wrong view
> of learning dhamma. I have realized that learning
> the dhamma is not
> expecting or wanting for a change but understanding
> the truth of everything
> and realities, which enhance the understanding of
> anattaness of everything
> and development of the right view. Lately, Archan
> Sujin taught us how to
> really understand and contemplate the realities as
> it is. And from there, I
> have realized that I have been only understanding
> dhamma at the level of
> thinking, and not the real contemplating and
> understanding of realities.
> From these past lessons, I have realized that many
> of our dhamma friends are
> in the same situation as me. Therefore today, I have
> decided on advising
> everyone my misunderstanding of dhamma, in hoping
> this can allow you to
> ponder yourself whether if it is really
> understanding the realities or you
> think you understand the realities. This is very
> important because thinking
> that you understand, includes a big self in there. I
> am not here to attack
> anybody or cause any akusula citta for anyone, and
> if my letter has attack
> any of you, pls forgive me because my intentions are
> not to offend you in
> any ways.
> with metta,
> shin
> Ms.Shin Lin
> Zebra Computer Company Limited
> 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd
> Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400
> Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines )
> Fax : 66-2-6516001
> company website : - www.zebra.co.th



 
 
2803 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:24pm
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  > From time to time, I find it interesting to compare Theravada 
> teachings with Christian teachings. By and large, I've found a large 
> degree of concord between the two traditions, although the language 
> and approaches are strikingly dissimilar. 


Dear Dan,

As usual, we are in direct opposition, or almost, and I look forward 
to more stimulating discussion.  Christianity is focused on God, from 
the very first sentence in the Bible, when God created light, the 
universe, men etc.  The motivation for men is to fear and love God 
and total obeissance, 'his will be done', disobedience and loving 
other Gods are punishable by hell, unless the lost sheep repents.  

Well, God does not exist in Buddhism, everything arises because of 
conditions, the universe is formed and destroyed by conditions over 
and over, and men are born and reborn of their own kamma, even brahma 
who are considered gods by some, or deva who can perform miracles, 
could not create a man, or kill him, if it were not his kamma to die 
or be born that way.  With the right conditions, however, anything is 
possible, the Buddha taught that we have all been born evrywhere from 
the lowest hell to the highest brahma heavens (except for one where 
only the anagami would be reborn, if I remember correctly).  

But the most important difference between Buddhism and any other 
teachings is that he taught that the soul is not one continuous 
consciousness that arise at birth and passes to heaven/hell/purgatory 
but what are normally imperceptible, extremely rapidly arising and 
falling away instants of intelligence/consciousness in what is called 
khanika marana (the death that occurs each instant of citta), over 
which no one has control whatever.  Instants of seeing and hearing at 
this moment could never last, they change and can never be brought 
back in exactly the same way again.  

Because of the rapidity of the succession of the citta, we think we 
see and hear at the same time, in fact they are interposed by 
instants of citta through the mind door, and that is what the first, 
weakest and lowest vipassana nana manifests: the differences between 
the rupa that arise through the five dvara and the mind dvara, as the 
nama-rupa-paricheda-nana (the complete separation of the nama and the 
rupa).  This Knowledge could only come from a very highly developed 
degree of knowledge of things as they really are, accumulated little 
by little through satipatthana.

Satipatthana is also taught in no other religion in the world- how 
could they, since they regard the soul as an entity, not instants of 
succeeding citta?  But it can be proven by anyone for himself, 
(ehipassiko- come try it out, or 'check it out!', as Betty would 
say,) we all have eyes, ears, noses, tongues, body sense and minds.  
We would never be able to experience anything at all without them.  
But our kamma created them and we are presently their slaves, 
thinking that they are our selves.  By knowing them as they really 
are, as well as their individual kinds of aramana, we could come to 
see them as they really are: conditioned realities that arise and 
fall away, then where is the beloved, unique and interesting selves?

And though we might think we understand the theories, it is only the 
right level of understanding that could really bring the real instant 
of knowledge that lessen the clinging to the self, starting with the 
knowlege that will leave no more uncertainty that we are indeed only 
nama and rupa, experiencing the normally hidden nama of the mano 
dvara.  But that knowledge could only be reached by studying 
realities as they really are, as they arise at this moment around us, 
the real characteristics of visible objects before us, so different 
from sound, sight, touch.  These tiny instants of knowledge would 
accumulate and grow towards the strength when realization could 
arise, although one could never know when that will happen.  But 
without the study, the knowledge would never grow to that level at 
all and we would still be clinging to the self even though we 
understood the theory on the intellectual level perfectly.



> ... we are almost 
> assured to misunderstand and misrepresent others' views.


Interesting that you should mention this, here is a passage from an 
article in the advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> you 
might like:

Anguttara Nikaya, Dasaka Nipata, Samatha-Sutta: on habits to be 
formed or avoided.  

'Behold Bhikkhu: Should the bhikkhu not be knowledgeable in the 
instants of citta of others, then he should study to be knowledgeable 
in the instants of his own citta.  Behold, bhikkhu, he should study 
thus.'

Sujin: Perhaps we should already begin the discussion now.  While the 
Buddha's words might seem brief but in reality there is much to 
consider and examine, for example the phrase ' Should the bhikkhu not 
be knowledgeable in the instants of citta of others '.  This applies 
not only to bhikkhus, but to anyone who thinks they know what other 
people think.  Do they really know, or could they only guess without 
being able to tell whether the other person's citta might be 
thinking, seeing or performing any of the functions involving the 
citta. 

'Then he should study to be knowledgeable in the instants of his own 
citta.' 

This is already a reminder, which is the most important thing for 
those who like to criticize others, who are preoccupied with others, 
but are not mindful of their own citta whether the thinking is kusala 
or akusala.  Therefore the highest beneficence is not to be able to 
change other's akusala thoughts but one's own at that moment of 
thinking of others as kusala and akusala of which there can be 
mindfulness to know the truth, until there can be change from akusala 
to more kusala. 

Such bits of sayings may not seem like much, but those who read with 
discernment for the beneficence of the dhamma would greatly profit 
from it and remind themselves with it. 


This is from the beginning of a longish discussion about the 'Samatha 
Sutta', which is the title of the article.

Amara

 
2804 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  > Well it's conditioned a lot of thinking about my one
> experience of mantra chanting and I'm scratching my
> head (as Mike would say) trying unsuccesfully to
> remember the words.
> 
> Back 25yrs to those Bodh Gaya days, I had gone for a
> retreat from the retreat to Rajghir. One day I climbed
> Vulture's Peak and at the top there was a beautiful
> and very simple white Japanese temple. I decided to
> stay a couple of days and remember the lovely noodles
> and little dishes and of course everything was
> spotlessly clean. The only rule seemed to be that we
> had to rise early early (o.k. no problem for me), but
> while half asleep, we had to beat drums and gongs to a
> rhythm while chanting the mantra...sth rae sth sth sth
> sth sth (sorry, maybe there was more lobha for the
> noodles which I could describe exactly!). 
> 
> Anyway, I tried hard but I was quite hopeless at
> putting it all together, especially when we started
> beating the drums and gongs and repeating the mantra
> WHILST climbing a steep, rocky path to the very top!
> 
> Mike or someone else may remember the mantra. I JUST
> found out that Jonothan had a similar experience
> staying there with Phra Dhammadharo (who didn't need
> to  follow the ritual). Jonothan did and remembers the
> drums but not the mantra either.
> 
> Amara, the Hare Krishna and T-M people also use
> mantras composed of a few words repeated over and over
> again (not necessarily with any meaning) to bring
> about some change of consciousness. I had thought at
> the time that the mantra at the Japanese temple was in
> Japanese, but now I know a little more about Chinese
> and Japanese, I doubt it, as they were all
> monosyllabic sounds. I never checked whether there was
> any meaning. Actually it was quite fun and I'd happily
> repeat the experience!



Dear Sarah,

Thanks for this lovely explanation!  I really needed all that 
laughter, (I know, lobha!) and now I also know what 'mantra' is to a 
westerner!  Did you know that the recitals I used to do in my young 
and obedient days were called in Thai 'suad mon' (reciting mantra) 
which is why to my mind they are sort of synonyms.

Thanks for everything,

Amara

 
2805 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Precepts - Intoxicants

 
  Metta Jon

Welcome to the list, and thank you for this very
informative post.  I am impressed by your obvious
familiarity with the suttas.

Your citations are directly on point.  I particularly
like the reference to digging up one's own roots in
this world.

--- Metta Jon wrote: >
Jonathan,
> 
> You asked for scriptural references?
> 
> The first one that comes to mind is Dhammapada
> 247-248 (Chapter 18,
> [Impurities],  verses 12-13): 
> 
> "Whosoever in this world destroys life, tells lies,
> takes what is 
> not given, goes to another's wife, and is given to
> the use of 
> intoxicants, such a one digs up his own roots in
> this world." 
> 
> A reference that really spells things out is in the
> Dhammika Sutta
> of the Sutta Nipata (Sn.398-399):
> 
> "The layman who joyfully abides in self-control,
> knowing that the
> use of intoxicants results in loss of self-control,
> should not
> indulge in taking intoxicants, nor should he cause
> others to do so,
> nor approve of others so doing.  Fools commit evil
> deeds as a result
> of intoxication, and cause others who are negligent
> to do the same.
> One should avoid this occasion for evil, this
> madness, this delusion,
> this joy of fools."
> 
> Also from the Sutta Nipata (Maha Mangala Sutta,
> Sn.264):
> 
> "...to abstain from intoxicants, and to be diligent
> in virtue,
> these are the Highest Blessings."

As you point out, there are any number of excuses and
contrivances by those who don't see the danger in
intoxicants.

> There are some Westerners who are attracted to
> Buddhism, but who
> wish to believe that the precept is to abstain from
> intoxication,
> but the wording of the precept clearly says that one
> abstains 
> from the use of intoxicants, which are the occasion
> for heedlessness.
> 
> One or two people tried to tell me that if someone
> is a "Bodhisattva
> with a high level of realization" that they could
> drink alcohol and
> not be affected."  My response to that is: if they
> have such a high
> level of realization, then they would have no
> attachment to or 
> craving for alcohol, and thus would not drink it. 
> One man said to 
> me: "But the Buddha was enlightened, and he still
> ate food."  To
> which i responded: "Food is necessary for life;
> alcohol is not.  The
> Buddha ate food so that he could support his body
> and mind to teach
> the Dhamma (Dharma) to others."  Had i been in a
> sarcastic frame of
> mind, i could have said, "When YOU become a
> Bodhisattva with a high
> level of realization, then talk to me about it."
> 
> Some Buddhists will tell you that enlightened beings
> don't need to
> follow precepts.  This is true, but ONLY because
> their behavior
> automatically conforms to the Dhamma.  When your
> character is such
> that killing, stealing, lying, etc., are IMPOSSIBLE
> for you to 
> commit, then you don't need the precepts to tell you
> not to do those
> things--because you wouldn't do them anyway.  The
> great sage named
> Bodhidharma was quoted as saying: "Buddhas don't
> keep precepts; 
> Buddhas don't break precepts."
> 
> i hope that this helps anyone who is interested in
> this subject.

I'm sure it does

> Sukhita hotha,
> 
> Metta Jon Maslow

Thanks
Jonothan



 
2806 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:35pm
Subject: Re: Mahasi and Goenka

 
  > Anumodana, Goenkaji! Anumodana, Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw! I rejoice at 
the 
> wondrous work you have done spreading Dhamma and goodwill to 
thousands 
> and thousands of people for their lasting benefit. If only we could 
> all be such magnificent knights of Dhamma, helping people liberate 
> themselves from suffering.


Dear Dan,

Perhaps they should also compare them to the Tipitaka/Commentaries 
also or is that out of the question?

Amara

 
2807  
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 10:37pm
Subject: Re:New year resolution

 
  Dear Ms. Shin Lin,

   What are you talking about?  Was someone's feeling hurt?

   Anyway, thank you for the note.  You wrote:

"Lately, Archan Sujin taught us how to really understand and 
contemplate the realities as it is. And from there, I have realized 
that I have been only understanding dhamma at the level of thinking, 
and not the real contemplating and understanding of realities. "

   Please repeat what Archan Sujin taught because I'm sure that it's 
important and helpful to a lot of us.  Thank you.

Best New Year Wishes,
Alex Tran

 
2808 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 11:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Mike

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> Dear Robert and Jonothan,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your comments and for reposting
> Jonothan's
> extraordinary post.  This is the best post I've seen
> yet on this topic (& item #10 even hints strongly at
> the 'robes' issue--and a hidden connection between
> these issues), I think.

I am glad you found it useful

  I went to save it in my
> 'Jonothan' directory, and found it was already
> there--it was the first response Jonothan sent to me
> when I was still quite new to the list.
> 
> I think it would be good to post this as a file on
> the
> e-groups page--especially with as many references to
> the tipitaka as possible--as a quick response to
> curious newcomers who are bound to bring up this
> question again and again.

I agree it needs references (and further working on). 
The idea was to collect references as I came across
them for later inclusion.  Hasn't happened, I'm
afraid.  Any suggestions from any direction gratefully
received.

Jonothan

> So many of us came into the Theravada by way of
> modern
> meditation schools which tend to present their
> approaches--often (if not always) reductionistic and
> rather radical as to interpretation--as being the
> true, original buddhadhamma and a kind of solution
> to
> modern misconceptions.  With this as a background,
> our
> first look at understanding by way of the
> abhidhamma-pitaka often gives the impression of a
> really radical and intellectual approach.
> 
> It's no wonder that so many of us look askance, at
> first, at at a truly ancient approach with its roots
> in ALL of the dhamma-vinaya--not just a few selected
> suttas--as one that turns 'the dhamma'
> upside-down--instead of setting it upright, as I
> believe it actually does.
> 
> I hope the two of you have developed paramis number
> five and six, viriya and khanti, sufficiently to
> continue repeating these points for the benefit of
> those (I forget what we're called), who find the
> path
> slow and difficult.
> 
> Saadhu!
> 
> mike

PS  I'm impressed at your organizational skills as
reflected in your folder system.  I would be
interested to know how you get text from your email
program to your hard drive - by copy and paste, or as
an actual file?  I haven't worked out a satisfactory
system yet!
Please share a few tips.


 
2809 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 11:28pm
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  Dear Amara,
Christianity is indeed focused on "God," but getting past some of the 
superficialities of the words and thinking about what could Christians 
possibly mean by the use of such a word, it becomes clear that not 
many envision a white-bearded traffic director in the sky. Instead, 
"God" makes much more sense if thought of as "law of nature." Reading 
the Christian Bible with this notion of what "God" is (and why not?!) 
reveals that many of the Judeo-Christian prophets had a fairly good 
understanding of Dhamma--including the Four Noble truths as central to 
Christian doctrine (although they are not real clear about the fourth) 
and forming a current running through much of the scriptures and 
anatta-anicca-dukkha are discussed frequently in beautiful 
descriptions of the concepts (although the language is quite different 
from the Buddhist). I don't have enough time to get into any detail 
about this right now, but I'm glad your interested in hearing a little 
more. It is a very interesting topic.

I do want to leave you with an interesting idea to ponder. Buddha said 
something like (paraphrase): "Even if bandits savagely sever you limb 
by limb, he whose mind gives rise to hatred towards them is not 
following my teachings" (MN 21). Now, Jesus was tortured to death, but 
as he was being killed he displayed nothing but compassion for his 
assailants (paraphrase): "Father forgive them for they have no idea 
what they are doing." Jesus was not a follower of Buddha (he most 
likely had never heard of Buddha), but a man who feels only compassion 
for the men who torture him to death IS a follower of the Buddha's 
teachings. Even though he wasn't at all fluent in the language of 
Abhidhamma, Jesus displayed an incredible amount of wisdom. Can this 
man, who never heard even heard the word "Buddha", be more strongly 
grounded in Dhamma and wisdom than we who know hundreds or thousands 
of Pali words and can cogently discuss intricacies of Abhidhamma? 
Christians call him "Son of God" for the force of his metta and 
karuna. I'd prefer to call him "Student of Dhamma."

 
2810 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 11:50pm
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  > Christianity is indeed focused on "God," but getting past some of 
the 
> superficialities of the words and thinking about what could 
Christians 
> possibly mean by the use of such a word, it becomes clear that not 
> many envision a white-bearded traffic director in the sky. Instead, 
> "God" makes much more sense if thought of as "law of nature." 
Reading 
> the Christian Bible with this notion of what "God" is (and why 
not?!) 
> reveals that many of the Judeo-Christian prophets had a fairly good 
> understanding of Dhamma--including the Four Noble truths as central 
to 
> Christian doctrine (although they are not real clear about the 
fourth) 
> and forming a current running through much of the scriptures and 
> anatta-anicca-dukkha are discussed frequently in beautiful 
> descriptions of the concepts (although the language is quite 
different 
> from the Buddhist). I don't have enough time to get into any detail 
> about this right now, but I'm glad your interested in hearing a 
little 
> more. It is a very interesting topic.


Dear Dan,

Very, indeed!  Although the Ursuline nuns at the Mater Dei School I 
attended as a child would probably say countless prayers for your soul 
if they heard your view of their God to whom they are married!

If you have time, do elaborate.  I may even show some of the things 
you said to my Christian friends.


> I do want to leave you with an interesting idea to ponder. Buddha 
said 
> something like (paraphrase): "Even if bandits savagely sever you 
limb 
> by limb, he whose mind gives rise to hatred towards them is not 
> following my teachings" (MN 21). Now, Jesus was tortured to death, 
but 
> as he was being killed he displayed nothing but compassion for his 
> assailants (paraphrase): "Father forgive them for they have no idea 
> what they are doing." Jesus was not a follower of Buddha (he most 
> likely had never heard of Buddha), but a man who feels only 
compassion 
> for the men who torture him to death IS a follower of the Buddha's 
> teachings. 


I doubt that anyone who knows 'kammasakata' (each person having his 
own kamma' would ask 'law of nature' to 'forgive' anyone, since 
forgiveness is for the kusala citta of the person who forgives, 
nothing to do with what the perpetrator of the kamma who must receive 
the vipaka (result of kamma) whether anyone forgives him or not.  By 
the way, there is an article on 'Kammasakata-nana', a great personal 
favorite of mine, in the advance section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, which might be of interest.

Hope you find the time to read it someday,

Amara


Even though he wasn't at all fluent in the language of 
> Abhidhamma, Jesus displayed an incredible amount of wisdom. Can this 
> man, who never heard even heard the word "Buddha", be more strongly 
> grounded in Dhamma and wisdom than we who know hundreds or thousands 
> of Pali words and can cogently discuss intricacies of Abhidhamma? 
> Christians call him "Son of God" for the force of his metta and 
> karuna. I'd prefer to call him "Student of Dhamma."

 
2811 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2001 11:57pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Jonathon,
I don't find anything contradictory between Mahasi's and Buddhagosa's 
comments. Buddhagosa does not discuss consciousnesses immediately 
before bhaya-nana arises. Instead, he describes the experience of 
bhaya-nana itself. Mahasi's comments apparently refer to an instant of 
real fear which immediately spins into bhaya-nana as the mind reacts 
wisely to the incipient "fear" before it develops into 
full-fledged dosa. He does use the phrase "At that time...", but 
everything happens very quickly... His "at that time" may be a slip 
into everyday language and not a real confusion of the significance of 
each individual thought moment. I believe that Mahasi was wise enough 
to understand that panna does not arise coincident with domanassa. 

> Dhd5
> 
> I am coming in here without having read all the later
> posts – I know from experience that if I wait until I
> am up-to-date I won't get to post anything – so
> apologies in advance if I am going over ground already
> covered.
> 
> >           Mahasi clearly
> > indicated that the 
> > bhaya-nana is knowledge of a directly experienced
> > fear: "[The yogi's] 
> > mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless."
> > This accords more 
> > closely to my reasoning and experience than do your
> > deviations from 
> > Tipitaka. Your deviation from Tipitaka is writing
> > that the bhaya-nana 
> > is not derived from a real, directly experienced
> > fear, that it 
> > is not wisdom regarding a real, directly experienced
> > fear. Please note 
> > that I do not say that you contradict Tipitaka, only
> > that you are 
> > extrapolating or deviating from Tipitaka. Your
> > extrapolation differs 
> > from Mahasi's, and it differs from mine, but to the
> > best of my 
> > knowledge, none of the extrapolations contradicts
> > Tipitaka.
> 
> I don't know if you would agree, but it seems to me
> that the 2 commentaries – Buddhaghosa's and Mahasi
> Sayadaw's – are mutually exclusive, ie they can't both
> be right.  So it is perhaps a question as to which of
> the 2 accords more fully with the Tipitaka.  As far as
> I know, Buddhaghosa has never been faulted on this
> score in the 1500 years or so that the Visuddhimagga
> has been around.  But it will be interesting to see
> what Amara comes up with in her search of the
> Attasalini.
> 
> Jonothan
> 
> 

 
2812  
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 0:19am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  Dear Amara and Dan,

   This topic sounds interesting.  I've enjoyed Dan's posts very much.

   Now, at our temple, there's a visiting monk who's very very 
gentle.  He was trained to be a Catholic priest.  Right after 
graduating to be a priest, he studied Theravada Buddhism because his 
great grandmother warned him that those Buddhis monks were only a 
bunch of beggars!  He got curious about them.  Then, he became one 
himself.  And he's stayed with the Sangha since early 1960s.  A few 
weeks ago, he said that on the surface, perhaps even on the 
intermediate level of understanding, Christianity and Buddhism appear 
the same, but on the higher level, they are completely different.  

   Thank you, Dan, for sharing.  I'm looking forward to read Amara's 
posts about her learning experience about Catholicism and 
Christianity in the eyes of a Buddhist.

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

 
2813 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 0:39am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  >    Now, at our temple, there's a visiting monk who's very very 
> gentle.  He was trained to be a Catholic priest.  Right after 
> graduating to be a priest, he studied Theravada Buddhism because his 
> great grandmother warned him that those Buddhis monks were only a 
> bunch of beggars!  He got curious about them.  Then, he became one 
> himself.  And he's stayed with the Sangha since early 1960s.  A few 
> weeks ago, he said that on the surface, perhaps even on the 
> intermediate level of understanding, Christianity and Buddhism 
appear 
> the same, but on the higher level, they are completely different.  


Dear Alex,

Thank you for the story, it's so interesting how each individual come 
to Buddhism, isn't it?  All the different accumulations, each and 
everyone. 

Amara

 
2814 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:01am
Subject: Re: Three types of wisdom

 
  Dear Jonathon,

You wrote:
> I would not agree that it is necessary to deviate from
> the Tipitaka.  Deviation surely connotes inconsistency
> with.
Deviation need not connote inconsistency. There are a lot of things 
that Tipitaka simply does not discuss. For example, there is not a 
single word about integral calculus or internal combustion engines. I 
don't think anyone would argue that these things are inconsistent with 
Tipitaka. Of course, these things don't have much to do with the 
Dhamma that Buddha taught. By the same token, Buddha himself said that 
what he could teach about Dhamma in the short span of 45 years 
amounted to no more than a handful of leaves in a forest full of 
trees. The commentaries fill in some of the blanks (like Buddhagosa's 
comments on bhaya-nana), but we are left to filling in the vast blanks 
with wisdom garnered from our own experiences (like Mahasi's 
pre-bhaya-nana description: "The mind itself is gripped by fear..."). 
It is important that we be sure our deviations--whether dealing with 
internal combustion or "pre-bhaya-nana"--are not inconsistent with 
Tipitaka, but we deviate from Tipitaka very frequently and necessarily 
so. If you disagree, that's fine, but I don't think you will find 
in the Tipitaka any contradiction to my point.

 
2815 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:12am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  Dear Alex,
Thanks for the insightful post. I especially like your comment:

> A few weeks ago, he said that on the surface, perhaps even on the 
> intermediate level of understanding, Christianity and Buddhism  
appear the same, but on the higher level, they are completely 
different.  

I agree for the most part. However, I'd say that on a superficial 
level, they appear completely different. On a more intermediate level 
(once we get beyond the obvious differences in language and methods of 
expressing truth), they appear very similar. On a deeper level, 
though, they are once again very different. Part of the difference is 
that Christianity does not have a detailed description of the path. 
When pressed on what the path is, the response is that "faith is a 
gift from the Holy Spirit," which is quite a different from Buddha's 
[paraphrase of Rhys David's translation]: "Work out your own salvation 
with diligence"--and then explicit instructions on how to do it!

Another, less important but critical difference is the 
different emphasis on Jesus' two commandments: 1. Love God with all 
your heart; and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Theravada Buddhists 
put greater emphasis on the former (internal, spiritual), and 
Christianity puts more emphasis on the latter. Both traditions do 
emphasize both "commandments," but the weight put on each is 
different.

 
2816 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:19am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  > I doubt that anyone who knows 'kammasakata' (each person having his 
> own kamma' would ask 'law of nature' to 'forgive' anyone, since 
> forgiveness is for the kusala citta of the person who forgives, 
> nothing to do with what the perpetrator of the kamma who must 
receive 
> the vipaka (result of kamma) whether anyone forgives him or not.  
Excellent point! I see two wholesome functions of asking the 
'law of nature' for 'forgiveness'. One is to generate compassion 
towards others. The other is to attentuate the tendency to roll 
in unproductive, akusala brooding about your own guilty feelings. 

>By 
> the way, there is an article on 'Kammasakata-nana', a great personal 
> favorite of mine, in the advance section of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, which might be of interest.
I do hope to read it. [I keep thinking I don't have much time, but I 
keep posting on this board! It may be time to take a disciplined 
Holiday, following Robert's lead.]

 
2817 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:28am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  > > I doubt that anyone who knows 'kammasakata' (each person having 
his 
> > own kamma' would ask 'law of nature' to 'forgive' anyone, since 
> > forgiveness is for the kusala citta of the person who forgives, 
> > nothing to do with what the perpetrator of the kamma who must 
> receive 
> > the vipaka (result of kamma) whether anyone forgives him or not.  
> Excellent point! I see two wholesome functions of asking the 
> 'law of nature' for 'forgiveness'. One is to generate compassion 
> towards others. The other is to attentuate the tendency to roll 
> in unproductive, akusala brooding about your own guilty feelings. 


Dear Dan,

I think a Buddhist would be more interested in realities and wisdom 
rather than some god and even less in guilt.


> >By 
> > the way, there is an article on 'Kammasakata-nana', a great 
personal 
> > favorite of mine, in the advance section of 
> > <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, which might be of interest.
> I do hope to read it. [I keep thinking I don't have much time, but I 
> keep posting on this board! It may be time to take a disciplined 
> Holiday, following Robert's lead.]


We shall miss you, as we do him.

Amara

 
 
2818 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 2:04am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  Dear Amara,
I agree that the Buddhists are very concerned about "realities" and 
"wisdom". One aspect of wisdom is the generate compassion; another is 
to cultivate right effort to dissipate unwholesome thoughts about past 
actions. Properly done, forgiveness can accomplish this. Maybe 
'forgiveness' could be a cetasika in an alternative formulation of 
abhidhamma! [Really, I don't think this is worth thinking about for 
more than a moment or two because we already have a wonderful 
abhidhamma, and none of us has the wisdom to create another, even if 
it is possible!]

> > 'law of nature' for 'forgiveness'. One is to generate compassion 
> > towards others. The other is to attentuate the tendency to roll 
> > in unproductive, akusala brooding about your own guilty feelings. 

> I think a Buddhist would be more interested in realities and wisdom 
> rather than some god and even less in guilt.
> 
> 
> > >By 
> > > the way, there is an article on 'Kammasakata-nana', a great 
> personal 
> > > favorite of mine, in the advance section of 
> > > <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, which might be of interest.
> > I do hope to read it. [I keep thinking I don't have much time, but 
I 
> > keep posting on this board! It may be time to take a disciplined 
> > Holiday, following Robert's lead.]
> 
> 
> We shall miss you, as we do him.
> 
> Amara

 
2819 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 2:17am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  > I agree that the Buddhists are very concerned about "realities" and 
> "wisdom". One aspect of wisdom is the generate compassion; another 
is 
> to cultivate right effort to dissipate unwholesome thoughts about 
past 
> actions. Properly done, forgiveness can accomplish this. Maybe 
> 'forgiveness' could be a cetasika in an alternative formulation of 
> abhidhamma! 


Dear Dan,

Forgiveness, abhaya in Pali, I think, litterally means a=no 
bhaya=harm, that is to say no harm is intended toward the person you 
forgive.  It is adosa, accompanied sometimes by metta or friendship 
and is kusala citta of course.  It is so described in the abhidhamma, 
as are all major citta and cetasika.

Well, thanks for your interesting posts, I will have to go now, see 
you tomorrow, I hope,

Amara

 
2820 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 2:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  Hi Dan,

From the sila stand point, I think Buddhism looks similar to other
religions at the most superficial level.  Beyond that there aren't many
similarities.   from a non-specific standpoint, all Buddha teachings
are beautiful at the beginning, beautiful in the middle, and beautiful
at the end.  His teachings are profound refined, and his panna about
realities is unmatched.  I can't certainly say the same thing about
other religions.

In the more specific standpoints, here's what I found:
1) Sila in Buddhism has many levels: from sila without panna, sila with
panna, sila with Satipatthana, and sila with maggha.  Now, if you have
sila because it's the will/teaching of god.  Is that Sila with or
without panna?

2) People with different levels of panna perform sila for different
purposes: because it's good, because it will bring you good things in
return, or because it contributes to the path to Nibhanna.  In
Christianity, isn't it true that even if you perform sila, the result
is still uncertain.  It depends on god to make the judgement whether or
not you are worthy.  The results of sila are subjective at best, but
the results of sila in Buddhism are certain: it is simply how things
work.

--- Dan Dalthorp <> wrote:
> I agree for the most part. However, I'd say that on a superficial 
> level, they appear completely different. On a more intermediate level
> 
> (once we get beyond the obvious differences in language and methods
> of 
> expressing truth), they appear very similar. On a deeper level, 
> though, they are once again very different. 
I would love to hear more specific details of why you say this. 
Exception for the wordings and the outside appearances of person
performign sila (not killing, not lying, etc.), I see no similarity.  

> Part of the difference is
> 
> that Christianity does not have a detailed description of the path. 
> When pressed on what the path is, the response is that "faith is a 
> gift from the Holy Spirit," which is quite a different from Buddha's 
> [paraphrase of Rhys David's translation]: "Work out your own
> salvation 
> with diligence"--and then explicit instructions on how to do it!
The Buddha teaches realities as things really are.  I see huge
differences between Buddhism and other religion, betwen truths and
non-truths.  What are the similarities?

> 
> Another, less important but critical difference is the 
> different emphasis on Jesus' two commandments: 1. Love God with all 
> your heart; and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Theravada
> Buddhists 
> put greater emphasis on the former (internal, spiritual), and 
> Christianity puts more emphasis on the latter. Both traditions do 
> emphasize both "commandments," but the weight put on each is 
> different.
I also don't see how you say the first view point is a Buddhist view
point?  That's certainly not matching any of the Buddha's teachings,
perhaps not even matching to the teachings by Mahasi!  There is no god:
it's not a person, and it's not animal: there can be no Metta toward
god.  

kom




 
2821  
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 2:24am
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  Dear Dan,

   I think that the main point is not about the differences and 
similarities between religions.  BTW, I cannot think of Buddhism as a 
religion.  I believe that Buddhism is a study, similar to physics, 
biology,... with the Buddha as the Supreme Teacher, teaching us how 
to get out of suffering by showing us realities and concepts.  I 
cannot say the same thing about other religions such as Christianity 
though.

   We appreciate the Buddha and His Teachings according to our 
accumulations.  Some of us appreciate the Buddha and his Teachings so 
well that they are Sotapannas or higher.  Some of us are walking half 
way on the Path, with deep appreciation of other teachings as well.  
Some of us even follow cults whole heartedly.  We all do our best in 
our current ability and understanding to advance ourselves.  We 
cannot realize our wrong view easily because of our avijja 
(ignorance).  Only with right view and wisdom, we can really 
distinguish what is right and what is wrong.

   I always remind my students at my temple that Buddhism is the 
Teachings of Loving-Kindness and Wisdom.  

   That's why I rely on the Suttas such as the Kalama, the Brahmajala 
as well as other "reliable" sources to judge if whatever I hear is in 
harmony with the Buddha's Teachings or not.  

   Please forgive me if I offend you or some of our members in the 
list.

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

 
2822 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 5:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Jonothan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> I am glad you found it useful

Much more than useful.  I do think it contains the
answer to both the 'vs.' and the 'robes' issue.  The
more I reflect on it, the clearer these issues seem.

> I agree it needs references (and further working
> on). 
> The idea was to collect references as I came across
> them for later inclusion.  Hasn't happened, I'm
> afraid.  Any suggestions from any direction
> gratefully
> received.

I'm just thinking that a sceptic would be likely to
ask for provenance--I'm afraid I wouldn't know where
to begin to look.

> PS  I'm impressed at your organizational skills as
> reflected in your folder system.  I would be
> interested to know how you get text from your email
> program to your hard drive - by copy and paste, or
> as
> an actual file?  I haven't worked out a satisfactory
> system yet!

Actually, I'm much to stingy of space on my hard
drive--I keep these 'folders' on Yahoo's server. 
While you have a message open, there's a little window
in the upper right corner of you screen reading,
'Choose Folder'.  If you select 'New Folder' from that
list, then click on 'Move', you'll be prompted for a
name for the new 'folder'.  Once you've filled that
in, the message will be saved in that folder
indefinitely.  After that, you can click on the '+'
sign next to 'Folders' (to the left of your message
window), and select the 'folder' you'd like to view.

Hope this is of some use!

mike    


 
2823  
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 5:33am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  ---  "m. nease"  wrote:
> > PS  I'm impressed at your organizational skills as
> > reflected in your folder system.  
> 
> Actually, I'm much to stingy of space on my hard
> drive--I keep these 'folders' on Yahoo's server. 
> While you have a message open, there's a little window
> in the upper right corner of you screen reading,
> 'Choose Folder'.  If you select 'New Folder' from that
> list, then click on 'Move', you'll be prompted for a
> name for the new 'folder'.  Once you've filled that
> in, the message will be saved in that folder
> indefinitely.  After that, you can click on the '+'
> sign next to 'Folders' (to the left of your message
> window), and select the 'folder' you'd like to view.
> 
> Hope this is of some use!
> 
> mike    

Dear Jonothan and Mike,

   Good Question, Good Answer!

Thank you,
Alex

 
2824  
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 5:40am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  ---  "m. nease"  wrote:

> Thanks for bringing up this important point.  I've
> only just recently read about it in Abhidhamma in
> Daily Life.  This surely requires more understanding
> on my part.

Dear Mike,

   On which page that you found this information in the ADL, may I 
ask?  I haven't started reading the ADL yet.

   Like Robert and Amara said, even if we are born with 3 hetus, we 
may not realize it for years, or even for lives in the future.  
Moreover, it's very easy to make a mistake and be lost in wrong 
view.  It all depends on accumulations and conditions.

   A few months ago, when browsing the archive, I discovered that the 
list also discuss about the hetus.  

With Metta,
AT

 
2825 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 6:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramatth

 
  Dear Alex,

---  wrote:

>    On which page that you found this information in
> the ADL, may I 
> ask?  I haven't started reading the ADL yet.

I think the discussion of hetus begins earlier in the
book than this, but I was thinking of Chapter 8,
'Ahetuka Cittas'--which doesn't really deal with this
particular issue, as I recall.

So, not sure where the first mention of hetus begins! 
A great book, though, hope you enjoy it...

mike 


 
2826 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 10:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Just thinking aloud--could the flaw in translation be
that of cognition vs. REcognition?

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Dear amara,
> See my comments below:
> --- amara chay  wrote:
> > 
> > > Visuddhimagga XIV3 "the state of knowing is
> equally present
> > in
> > > perception(sanna) in consciousness
> (vinnana)(synonym for
> > citta)
> > > and in panna. Nevertheless perception is only
> the mere
> > > perceiving of an object as, say,'blue' or
> 'yellow';it cannot
> > > bring about the penetration of its
> characteristics as
> > > impermanent painful and not-self. Consciousness
> knows the
> > > objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about
> the
> > penetration
> > > of its characteristics, but it cannot bring
> about by
> > > endeavouring, the manifestation of the path.
> Panna knows the
> > > object in the way already stated, it brings
> about the
> > > penetration of the characteristics and it brings
> about, by
> > > endeavoring, the manifestation of the path"
> > 
> > 
> > This explains 'the state of knowing' very clearly.
>  Except for
> > the 
> > translation of perception as '(sanna)', which
> whomever did the
> > 
> > translation did not specify that 'sanna' is memory
> and
> > therefore 
> > cognition, as in recognition.  
> 
> Could you give us the Thai version (translated);
> this may be an
> important error in the English as usually sanna is
> translated as
> perception. They do exlain also that it has the
> function of
> memory but this is not stressed usually by
> translators. I would
> love to know more about this.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Otherwise this is a good differentiation of panna
> as right 
> > understanding from common memory and knowledge;
> and
> > experiencing daily 
> > life from moments when panna arises.
> 
> Glad you approve. 
> 
> > 
> > Who did the translation, by the way?
> 
> Venerable nanamoli an English monk who lived in sri
> lanka.
> 
> 
> On your last post you wrote:
> ">>From the 'Summary', the citta is explained more
> as an
> intelligence 
> than a consciousness since it arises when one is
> alive, even in
> a coma 
> or deep sleep, as the bhavanga citta (or life
> continuum)." >>>
> 
> I see in your  translation of Summary of Paramattha
> Dhammas by
> Khun sujin that you you translate Citta as
> consciousness not
> intelligence:
> 
> >>>... with the power of a dhamma, it is citta. 
> This
> demonstrates the importance of citta, which is
> consciousness,
> which experiences and knows, which is eminent in
> experiencing
> whatever appears>>>>
> 
> Also the glossary on your web page has this
> definition for
> >>>>>>citta:  
> consciousness, the reality which knows, or cognizes
> an object.
> >>>>
> 
> Robert
>  



 
2827 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:03am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Robert,

For a guy on holiday, this is some pretty heavy work. 
I don't mean to be flippant--there's a tremendous
amount to consider here.

Thanks...

mike


 
2828 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Precepts - Intoxicants

 
  Thanks and well said, sir...

mike

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Dear All
> 
> Some time ago there was discussion here about the
> reason for the inclusion of the avoidance of
> intoxicants in the 5 precepts.
> 
> Recently I came across an old BPS Newsletter with an
> article by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the subject of sobriety.
> 
> In it he explains the reason for the laying down of
> the precept.  He says-
> 
> To dispel any doubt about his reasons for
> prescribing
> this precept, the Buddha has written the explanation
> into the rule itself:  one is to refrain from the
> use
> of intoxicating drinks and drugs because they are
> the
> cause of heedlessness (pamaada).  Heedlessness means
> moral recklessness, disregard for the bounds between
> right and wrong.  It is the loss of heedfulness
> (appamaada), moral scrupulousness based on a keen
> perception of the dangers in unwholesome states. …
> [ends]
> 
> Bh Bodhi goes on to say that to indulge in
> intoxicating drinks is to risk falling away from
> each
> of the 3 stages of the path – morality,
> concentration
> and wisdom [ie sila, samadhi and panna].
> 
> If anyone comes across any actual Tipitaka
> references,
> please share with us.
> 
> By the way, I believe that ‘moral recklessness,
> disregard for the bounds between right and wrong’ in
> the passage quoted above is a reference to the
> absence
> of the cetasikas (mental factors) hiri and ottappa,
> which have been the subject of discussion recently.
> 
> Jonothan
> 



 
2829 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:06am
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  > Just thinking aloud--could the flaw in translation be
> that of cognition vs. REcognition?


Dear Mike,

You mean that cognition is to learn something new, as opposed to 
recognition as to knowing what is seen intellectually?

Amara

P.S.  I forgot to ask, where is the flaw, do you mean in my 
translation?  Because if you find something wrong, it could be easily 
rectified.

 
2830 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Dear Jonothan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Kom
> 
> I have a slightly different understanding on this
> subject than Robert (Mike, but there is no discord
> between us!), 

(Genuine thanks for the reassurance, but 'I' seem to
have overcome clinging to concord, for the moment...!)

> and I hope you don't mind if I give my
> thoughts here.

I don't think that could ever be the case (for long,
at least...!)
 
> >  wrote:

> > >  Almost always breath is concept when we are
> aware
> > of it.
> > > Especially when it is used as an object for
> > samattha and a
> > > nimitta arises this is obviously concept. 
> > You are saying here that in the beginning, the
> > meditator (samatha
> > bhavana) may have poramattha as aramana.  However,
> > since to develop the
> > samatha bhanvana further, nimita must appear, and
> > therefore, at this
> > point, it becomes pannati.  Is this about right?
> 
> Breath, it seems to me, is a concept.  Like with the
> concept ‘body’, it is possible that there can be
> awareness of one of the realities that we normally
> take for breath/body, and at such moments no concept
> of breath/body appears.  But there is no paramattha
> dhamma ‘breath’, just as there is no paramattha
> dhamma
> ‘body’.

I was instructed, for this reason, to focus on 'the
rise and fall of the abdomen', rather than the breath
at the tip of the nose.  The rationale was that, if
one focused on the sensation of the breath at the tip
of the nose, one's attention might be taken instead by
the wind element, or the fire (coolness?) element, or
the wind (motion?) element--so, better to focus on the
"rise and fall of the abdomen"--which I'm now certain
is paññati, at best--as least the way *I* did it...
 
> Breath as object of samatha is a concept.  Breath as
> object of satipatthana, however, is a reference to
> awareness of one of the realities that we take for
> breath.

Do you think that this was what, specifically, was
meant in the Anapanasati Sutta?
 
> > > And even during
> > > vipassana when there is awareness of the
> different
> > namas and
> > > rupas that arise almost simultaneoulsy with
> breath
> > - the breath
> > > itself is not an object for satipatthana.
> However
> > breath is
> > > actually composed of rupas that are conditioned
> > ONLY by citta
> > > (citta-samutthana-rupa). Only special type of
> > wisdom can
> > > actually distinguish between the rupas that are
> > citta-samutthana
> > > -rupa and say those that are utu
> -samutthana-rupa.
> >  Thus we might
> > > think we are experiencing the rupas that are
> > conditioned by
> > > citta but actually be observing other types - it
> > is exceedingly
> > > hard to know. 
> > Do you know of anyone who actually try to
> "observe"
> > the differences
> > between citta-samutthana and utu-samutthana rupa? 
> > Are the differences
> > actually observable via Satipatthana?  This is
> where
> > I can understand
> > how being unwise studying Abhidhamma could cause
> > insanity...
> 
> I think what Robert is saying here is that one
> reason
> why samatha bhavana with breath as object is so
> difficult is that it is easy to take what is not
> breath for breath, since there are all sorts of
> things
> happening around the tip of the nose.  

Sure--or the abdomen...

> Knowledge of
> the difference between the 2 kinds of rupa
> (conditioned by citta vs. conditioned by utu) would
> be
> panna of the level of samatha bhavana, I suppose.
> 
> The difference between these 2 kinds of rupa is of
> no
> significance in the development of satipatthana,
> since
> satipatthana does not require the arising of
> awareness
> in relation to any particular reality.  

But doesn't satipaññaa require the arising of
awareness in relation to a paramattha dhamma?  I was
beginning to think that this is the difference between
paramattha and non-paramattha dhammas (e.g. paññati)
...  

> And as far
> as
> I know, the characteristic of, say, hardness, is the
> same whenever it appears to sati ie it does not
> differ
> according to its conditioning factor/s.
> 
> This is a very complex area.  I have only ever tried
> to understand the basics, because these are
> confusing
> enough!

Tell me about it...!

mike


 
2831 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Dear Jonothan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> > O.K.  But isn't an affinity for impermanence and
> the
> > other characterisics, one of the things that
> > attracts
> > us to the Dhamma now?
> 
> Yes.  But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at a
> relatively superficial level.  It is not the panna
> which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing and
> at the same time has penetrated the true nature of
> that reality to the degree that the characteristic
> of
> impermanence is known.

I guess what I had in mind here was, If 'we' have an
affinity for the tilakkhana now, doesn't that suggest
some previous 'accumulation'?  If it's true that we
don't carry 'stories' from one life to the next, but
only paññaa?  Or is this just sankharuppadana (or
something like that)?
 
> For those listening to the Buddha, developed panna
> was
> arising through the different doorways as he spoke. 
> They had accumulated levels of panna in previous
> lives, 

Have we not?  If not, why are we interested today?

> and had me the right conditions for those
> accumulations to become manifest during the lifetime
> of the Buddha. 
> I appreciate that there are many people today who
> claim to understand impermanence, 

I promise you, I make no claim to this!  I only wonder
why some of us are attracted by the tilakkhana in this
life, while most of us (even if we hear of it) are
repulsed.  Maybe I'm just being a little superstitious
here...

> but they do so
> without having studied the realities appearing
> through
> the different doorways.  So I believe they are
> talking
> about something different.

I'm sure that's true.

mike


 
2832 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  Dear Khun Sujin,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> But the nama sati and panna, as
> you also observed, 
> could study the characteristics of other nama, when
> they arise 
> strongly enough, the ones being as fast as the
> other.  The thing is 
> not to attach so much importance to the individual
> moments so as to 
> keep thinking about this and that aspect of it
> afterwards, not 
> realizing they are just thoughts.  

Right!

> Moments of sati
> arise to know the 
> paramatthadhamma with the right conditions, 

Nama AND rupa...

> for just
> that fleeting 
> instant when one reality appears at a time, not the
> whole body or a 
> hand which are concepts, but as visible object,
> touch, seeing, which 
> you can test for yourself even in front of the
> computer.  

...or paññaa can...

> Khun Sujin 
> says that right understanding can arise anywhere,
> without exception, 
> so all we have to do is let it happen, 

...and hope for kusala 'accumulations'...

> no matter
> what others say.  
> Only we could know our own experiences, in the end. 
> 
> 
> Anumodana in your studies, as usual,

Thanks, as always, Ma'am...

mike


 
 
2833 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  Dear Sarah,

You wrote:
>I had 2 older Abhidhamatthasangaha translations & had
>also found it tough going. The translation by B.Bodhi
>I find a real treat by comparison; beautifully laid
>out and in good English w/gd notes. But then you're
>probably reading it in Pali. do you have the comm.note
>in Pali too?

The 2 older translations of Abhidh-s (CPD abbr.) you mention are
probably the same 2 I have by Narada and S.Z. Aung. I don't have Bodhi's
translation but have been thinking about ordering a copy. I most often use
Narada's translation and notes but only for reference and have not tried to
work my way through it from cover to cover. However, the Abhidh-s does
contain a lot of useful information that helps me to understand some of the
messages on this list. Some recent examples were those concerning the hetus
of individuals which Alex and Amara posted and also in my reading of
'Realities and Concepts' there is much in it that is coming from Abhidh-s
and its tika. So I'm interested in becoming better acquainted with these
texts in Pali. I have four versions of Abhidh-s and two versions of its tika
to work with plus the two translations mentioned above.

>Good to have you back on 'board'...you certainly
>caught up quickly!

Glad to be back on board! Normally, whenever I leave my cottage I also leave
behind my access to the internet and I would have quite a bit of catching up
to do when I got back. But this time while in the city I bought a laptop
computer and was able to connect online from it while there and keep up with
reading the messages. I also felt that it was a good idea to have a laptop
as a backup in case my desktop computer fails to work as it did several
times last year.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2834 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:51am
Subject: Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  > Dear Khun Sujin,


Dear Mike,

I hope this was an 'honest mistake' and not irony!

Sorry, just couldn't resist,

Amara

 
2835 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 0:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> So what is meant by 'holy life' and what is meant
> here
> by 'monk'? 

I knew I was equivocating a little, here, and
deliberately so.  No wrong speech was intended...

> I'd need to read the commentary notes to
> be
> quite sure, but in many suttas, we are told that the
> holy life refers to the eightfold path and those who
> have followed the eightfold path (and reached stages
> of enlightenment) are those that have followed the
> holy life. This reminds me of the ultimate meaning
> of
> sangha which also refers to the same individuals.

This WAS the sort of think I had in mind...
 
> In the same way, we need to consider what is meant
> by
> 'bhikkhu' when it seems so often that it is only
> monks
> that are being referred to. I'm just looking at the
> commentary notes to the Satipatthana Sutta. Here it
> says 'Bhikkhu is a term to indicate a person who
> earnestly endeavours to accomplish the practice of
> the
> teaching. Others, gods and men, too, certainly
> strive
> earnestly to accomplish the practice of the
> teaching,
> but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state
> by
> way of prctice, the master said 'Bhikkhu'....'He who
> practises this practice of the Arousing of
> Mindfulness
> is called a bhikkhu'....'Accordingly it is said:
> 
>     "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm,
>      Tamed, humble,pure,a man who does no harm
>      To aught that lives, that one's a brahmin true.
>      An ascetic and mendicant too'Dhp142

Nice citation! Especially in the context of the
'robes' thread.  As you may recall, I have yet to read
the commentaries--so you may be engaging in a duel of
wits with an unarmed opponent...
 
> In the comm notes to the Samannaphala Sutta (Fruit
> of
> recluseship) 

(one of my favorites!)

> which I'm reading along with many other
> books, in my grasshopper fashion, it talks about the
> meaning of recluseship:
> 
> 'in the ultimate sense, recluseship is the path and
> the fruit of recluseship is the noble fruit.  As it
> is
> said:  'What , bhikhus, is recluseship? It is this
> Noble Eightfold Path...' '
> 
> It also talks here about the 3 kinds of solitude,
> i.e.
> bodily (kayaviveka), mental (cittaviveka) and
> ultimate
> solitude (upadhiviveka) for those  persons 'who have
> gone beyone formations' (i.e. attained Nibbana).
> 
> The reason I'm mentioning these is not because
> anyone
> has implied anything to the contrary but just to
> reflect how carefully we need to read the Suttas.
> When
> it seems that the Buddha is only talking to the
> monks,
> it MAY not be the case.

Sarah, I'm NOT disagreeing with you.  But the
distinction comes not from reading the suttas, but
from reading the commentaries.  I hope you know that,
by now, I'm convinced of the value of that.
 
> Even with commentary notes and the Pali it is not
> always easy and the reading will very much depend on
> one's understanding at the time. Ages(?) ago there
> was
> some discussion on the list (after a death in O's
> family) on the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (A Single
> Excellent
> Night), Maj Nik 131.  It talks about how death can
> come at any time, but one who 'dwells' ardently can
> be
> said to have had an excellent night. I'd read all
> the
> comm notes and checked the pali and still didn't
> understand why it should just refer to the night and
> not the day. In Bangkok they checked the Thai and
> here
> it referred to night and day and K.Sujin explained
> that night refers to a 24hr period as in booking a
> hotel for 2nts!  

Not surprising at all.  Same expression is common
around the ancient world, in the form of 'moons'
rather than 'suns'.

> I don't expect this to be of any
> interest to many (except perhaps Jim A), but it's
> just
> an example of how suttas are not as easy to read as
> some may think and a reason why it can be hard to
> read
> correctly without some knowledge of abhidhamma!

Well, it's of great interest to me, in particular, but
more to the point, as an example of the value of
approaching the dhammavinaya by way of the
commentaries, and therefore of the great benefit of
having the members of this group as 'admirable
friends... 
 
Happy New Year again...

mike


 
2836 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 0:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> On the subject of concord or lack of it (Mike this
> post may not be to your liking in this regard!),

(I think I'm beginning to get over this particular
bug, thanks to you...!)
 
> p.s (I always seem to have one) Mike, some humour
> and
> lighter side would have been a big improvement all
> around at that time!

Unfortunately, I was engaged in an underwater struggle
with a HUGE papañca-beast at the time.  If you hadn't
thrown me that knife, I wouldn't be here to thank you
even now...  
 
mike


 
2837 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  I've done it again...

No irony intended, Khun Amara!

mike
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> > Dear Khun Sujin,
> 
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> I hope this was an 'honest mistake' and not irony!
> 
> Sorry, just couldn't resist,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
2838 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 0:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:New year resolution

 
  Dear Khun Shin,

Well said!

--- shinlin  wrote:
> Dear Dhamma friends,
>     It is already New Years. Usually before meeting
> and hearing dhamma, I
> would usually think of new year resolutions for the
> next year. BUT things
> has changed after understanding the dhamma. At the
> beginning, I thought
> Dhamma would change my life for the better. BUT all
> that was the wrong view
> of learning dhamma. I have realized that learning
> the dhamma is not
> expecting or wanting for a change but understanding
> the truth of everything
> and realities, which enhance the understanding of
> anattaness of everything
> and development of the right view. Lately, Archan
> Sujin taught us how to
> really understand and contemplate the realities as
> it is. And from there, I
> have realized that I have been only understanding
> dhamma at the level of
> thinking, and not the real contemplating and
> understanding of realities.

Ditto!  It struck me recently that I've expended a
great deal of (wrong) effort trying to justify a lot
of 'coarse' understanding based on paññati (mostly
papañca). 

> From these past lessons, I have realized that many
> of our dhamma friends are
> in the same situation as me. 

(Count me 'in').

> Therefore today, I have
> decided on advising
> everyone my misunderstanding of dhamma, in hoping
> this can allow you to
> ponder yourself whether if it is really
> understanding the realities or you
> think you understand the realities. This is very
> important because thinking
> that you understand, includes a big self in there. I
> am not here to attack
> anybody or cause any akusula citta for anyone, and
> if my letter has attack
> any of you, pls forgive me because my intentions are
> not to offend you in
> any ways.

On the contrary, Ma'am, THANK you for 'attacking' 'my'
moha! and a very happy new year...

mike


 
2839 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 0:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:
 
> > Just thinking aloud--could the flaw in translation
> be
> > that of cognition vs. REcognition?
>  
> Dear Mike,
> 
> You mean that cognition is to learn something new,
> as opposed to 
> recognition as to knowing what is seen
> intellectually?

I meant to 'know' it for the first time rather than to
perceive it as something previously known.  I was
really just throwing that out as a possibility.
 
> Amara
> 
> P.S.  I forgot to ask, where is the flaw, do you
> mean in my 
> translation?  

No, that wasn't what I meant.  I should have kept more
of the post I was responding to--I'll look it up and
refresh my memory.

> Because if you find something wrong,
> it could be easily 
> rectified.

I certainly didn't to criticise your translation.  I
don't know the original language!  Please excuse my
recklessness.  I've been going a little too fast,
trying to catch up--I'll have a look back and try to
clarify my meaning.

No offense, Ma'am!

mike


 
2840 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:07pm
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  > I meant to 'know' it for the first time rather than to
> perceive it as something previously known.  


Dear Mike,

Both the words 'cognition' and 'recognition' are the functions of 
sanna, if I remember correctly, sanna 'marks' or 'notes' whatever the 
citta is experiencing as aramana so that it recognizes it again, even 
when it could not place a 'name' on it yet, such as in a baby without 
linguistic abilities.  The which is why right sanna of the 
experiencing of realities could accumulate and panna grow, mutually 
assisting one cetasika the other, with the right conditions.  

Hope this helps,

Amara

 
> No offense, Ma'am!
> 
> mike

 
2841 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:10pm
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  > > No offense, Ma'am!
> > 
> > mike


Dear Mike,

I meant to say also, no offense taken, especially from you!

Amara

 
2842 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:31pm
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  > Both the words 'cognition' and 'recognition' are the functions of 
> sanna, if I remember correctly, sanna 'marks' or 'notes' whatever 
the 
> citta is experiencing as aramana so that it recognizes it again, 
even 
> when it could not place a 'name' on it yet, such as in a baby 
without 
> linguistic abilities.  The which is why right sanna of the 
> experiencing of realities could accumulate and panna grow, mutually 
> assisting one cetasika the other, with the right conditions.  


I also would like to add that this is why the 'wrong' sanna is also 
accumulated in ordinary everyday life, when we take nama and rupa 
for  the self and others as well as animals, entities and objects.  
Without the teachings of the Buddha, right sanna would never be able 
to start, even on the intellectual level, and we would always live in 
the world of pannatti, as we have for innumerable lifetimes.

Amara

 
2843 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> > I meant to 'know' it for the first time rather
> than to
> > perceive it as something previously known.  

> Dear Mike,
> 
> Both the words 'cognition' and 'recognition' are the
> functions of 
> sanna, if I remember correctly, sanna 'marks' or
> 'notes' whatever the 
> citta is experiencing as aramana so that it
> recognizes it again, even 
> when it could not place a 'name' on it yet, such as
> in a baby without 
> linguistic abilities.  The which is why right sanna
> of the 
> experiencing of realities could accumulate and panna
> grow, mutually 
> assisting one cetasika the other, with the right
> conditions.  
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Amara

Excellent!  Thanks for the clarification.

mike


 
2844 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 1:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: >
I'd just like to chip in here with a comment on one
> of
> the references to 'fear' quoted by Sarah.
> 
> > Just one more short quote from Ang Nik bk of 6s:
> > 
> > 'Fear (bhaya), pain, disease, blain (?), bondage,
> > bog
> > (?) are names
> > For sense-desires to which the worldlings cling.
> > They who see fear in grasping (upadana)- source of
> > birth
> > And death - grasp not and, ending both, are freed;
> > Won is the peace, blissful in perfect cool
> > They dwell here now, all fear and hate long gone,
> > All ill surpassed.'
> 
> Good quote.  Is it possible that the reference to
> 'those who see fear in grasping (upadana)' is a
> reference to seeing fear without experiencing fear
> of
> the dosa type?
> 
> Jonothan
> 
Dear J,

Yes I think you're right. Both the first fear
(bhaya)in the first line and the fear as in see fear
in grasping (upadana- Comy. the fourfold-i.e.
kama,ditthi, silabbata, attavada) obviously refer to
the 'fearsomeness' in sense pleasures and grasping.
Those who see this dwell with all fear and hate (both
are kinds of dosa) removed.

Thanks for pointing this out. I've found the many
reminders about the fear or fearsomeness of sense
pleasures to be very sobering and useful (even if at
an intellectual level!). Thanks to Amara & Dan for
raising the topic. <would be nice to have a better
translation for bhaya!>

Sarah

Really looking f/w to a good translation of Ang Nik
w/comm notes by B.Bodhi.....! The collected Wheel
publication didn't include this verse.


 
2845 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 3:11pm
Subject: Giving and Taking Offence

 
  Dear Kom, Amara, Alex, Shin, Mike 

Kom wrote:
> I am glad to see you don't seem to take offense to
> labeling subjective.
>   I think all each of us can do is to explain our
> understanding in the
> open, and point out to each other good sources of
> information.  Whether
> one who reads the messages understand dhamma the
> right way or not, that
> depends on many conditions and accumulations. 

I think we've all been concerned about giving offence
recently and perhaps it's useful to consider this a
little.

As we know, those cheating dhammas (vancaka) slip in
all the time and the reason they're cheating is
because we usually don't recognize them because we're
so busy justifying our kusala (wholesome) thoughts,
speech and action. Amara referred recently to a couple
of these. One was the condemning with harsh words,
focusing on the person and not the deed (no.21). I am
only too painfully aware of how often this slips in
while I'm teaching. It's so easy to justify the stern
words (and dosa) as being for the student's welfare.

The other Amara mentioned was the one that 'searches
for others' wrong doings' and liking to 'condemn
others'. Again, it can be quite subtle and it's very
easy to kid ourselves that it doesn't arise. 

In reality, I find, even when my overall concern is to
help others such as when I am teaching or even here on
the list, akusala cittas of all kinds slip in all the
time. After all, teachers and listies are not arahats!


Amara & Dan have recently been sharing some useful
thought on 'judging others' and while I was checking
back in the Bk of 6s in Ang Nik for my last post, I
was side-tracked into reading the useful passages 'on
being considerate' and 'judging others'. 

In 'judging others' (bk of 6s, 45), the Buddha
discusses different types of persons. He starts by
talking about one who is pleasant, friendly and lives
gladly with others, but doesn't develop much
understanding. Then he talks about another person with
the same personality, but in this case becomes
enlightened. When they die, people judge them the same
and only the Buddha can know all the differences:

'Therefore, Ananda, you should not be a (hasty) critic
of people, should not (lightly) pass judgement on
people.  He who passes judgement on people harms
himself.  I alone, Ananda, or one like me, can judge
people.'

I've rather lost my thread... The point is, as Kom
expressed a lot more succinctly, all we can do on the
list (as that was the topic of his post) is offer our
help and understanding and even questioning as best as
we can at any given time, keeping in mind our
limitations. We cannot always send a perfect post or
one that won't cause offence, but at least we're
trying and learning, hopefully, by our mistakes. No
one means to cause offence.

Whether offence is taken will depend on many other
conditions which are quite outside our control. Some
were offended by even the Buddha's own words. While we
cling to ourselves, don't we all take offence from
time to time? Mana (conceit) rears its ugly head only
too easily!

> 
> Mispellings of pali terms, for examples, are
> understandably a hindrance
> to understanding the discussions.  Clearly akusala
> vipaka for those who
> endure them, and possibly akusala kamma for those
> who propagate them. 
> My apology to all.

I wouldn't put it so seriously, Kom... I really
wouldn't see this as akusala kamma for a start! The
vipaka will have to wait for another post!
What about all my typo mistakes? 
> 
> Misunderstood statements about dhamma are also an
> even harder hindrance
> to overcome.  I personally propagate some recently,
> and will no doubt
> propagate more (maybe less and less???) in the
> future. 

We ALL make mistakes..we're all here to learn...As
always, appreciating all your great posts this
month..Many times we discussed how we were sorry not
to have you with us in Cambodia.  

With (mostly) good intentions!!

Sarah


 
2846 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 3:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  Dear Amara,

Glad you enjoyed it....I've never been good at telling
amusing stories, so I'm flattered (o.k. there's the
mana) by your laughter! 

One little more twist to this story. Yesterday morning
I went to see my acupuncturist for my weekly 'hit'
with the needles for my throat problem. He suggested I
take up early morning chanting! When I remember the
words of the mantra, maybe I can try to juggle it with
my early morning posts to this list! 

Sarah



--- amara chay  wrote: > 

> Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for this lovely explanation!  I really needed
> all that 
> laughter, (I know, lobha!) and now I also know what
> 'mantra' is to a 
> westerner!  Did you know that the recitals I used to
> do in my young 
> and obedient days were called in Thai 'suad mon'
> (reciting mantra) 
> which is why to my mind they are sort of synonyms.
> 
> Thanks for everything,
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2847 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 3:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote: > Dear Amara,
> 
 When I remember the
> words of the mantra, maybe I can try to juggle it
> with
> my early morning posts to this list!

..and with sati OF COURSE!


..and right now i'm juggling this, with a quick lunch
snack, & answering tel calls! MUST sign off!

> 
> Sarah
> 
> 
> 
> --- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> > Dear Sarah,
> > 
> > Thanks for this lovely explanation!  I really
> needed
> > all that 
> > laughter, (I know, lobha!) and now I also know
> what
> > 'mantra' is to a 
> > westerner!  Did you know that the recitals I used
> to
> > do in my young 
> > and obedient days were called in Thai 'suad mon'
> > (reciting mantra) 
> > which is why to my mind they are sort of synonyms.
> > 
> > Thanks for everything,
> > 
> > Amara
> > 



 
 
2848 From: tikmok   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 4:08pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Giving and Taking Offence

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for your well thought-out reponse to my message, and thanks for
attempting to mend any rift.

-----Original Message-----
> Mispellings of pali terms, for examples, are
> understandably a hindrance
> to understanding the discussions.  Clearly akusala
> vipaka for those who
> endure them, and possibly akusala kamma for those
> who propagate them.
> My apology to all.
>I wouldn't put it so seriously, Kom... I really
>wouldn't see this as akusala kamma for a start! The
>vipaka will have to wait for another post!
>What about all my typo mistakes?

Can't help it.  I am a serious guy.  Seriously, though, I took no offence on
the suggestion that I had many slips of mispellings.  Besides the fact that
it is true, sometimes I am just lazy, or ran out of time, to make sure that
the spellings are all right.  If I am lazy, that is certaily akusala.  It
may have no malice intention, but that's akusala nonetheless.

Anumoddhana for reminding yet once again that even while doing something
that can be superficially thought of kusala "deed", it may be, in fact,
akusala or kusala may be alternately rising with akusala.

kom



 
2849 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 6:06pm
Subject: Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  > Glad you enjoyed it....I've never been good at telling
> amusing stories, so I'm flattered (o.k. there's the
> mana) by your laughter! 
> 
> One little more twist to this story. Yesterday morning
> I went to see my acupuncturist for my weekly 'hit'
> with the needles for my throat problem. He suggested I
> take up early morning chanting! When I remember the
> words of the mantra, maybe I can try to juggle it with
> my early morning posts to this list! 


Dear Sarah,

Thanks for another 'hit' of laughter, maybe I could pass on to you my 
old recital to chant!  Might be better to chant the beneficence of the 
Buddha than some unintelligible syllables, even if it's for your 
throat!  Do take care of yourself, 

Anumodana for all the kusala,

Amara

 
2850 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Papañca_[again]

 
  --- amara chay  wrote: > 

> Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for another 'hit' of laughter, maybe I could
> pass on to you my 
> old recital to chant!  Might be better to chant the
> beneficence of the 
> Buddha than some unintelligible syllables, even if
> it's for your 
> throat!  Do take care of yourself, 
> 
> Anumodana for all the kusala,
> 
> Amara
> 

....ah, but chanting an intelligible and useful
recital, reflecting on it AND sending out posts at the
same time could be even more challenging than the
mantra, drums and climbing up the mountain routine! 


 
2851 From: kelvin liew peng chuan   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 9:23pm
Subject: Dan's view

 
  I have a similar view with Dan but I'm quite clear about the distance that 
sets the Dhamma appart frm others.I wonder if any of you guys read an 
article on the net condemming the Dhamma?(eg.Catholic Appologetics)Frm there 
you can see the striking difference .I believe the Dhamma as proclaimed by 
the Teacher is the most unique as every phenomenon is explainable and there 
are no hidden unfigured out things like mysteries.This is also the only 
teaching that challenges humans to face suffering straight in the face.

 
2852 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  Dear Kom,
Thanks for your excellent comments and questions. This is a topic 
that I find fascinating, and I hope to write more extensively about it 
on this forum. However, right now I do not have enough time to do the 
topic justice, so I am postponing it to a later date. 

> Hi Dan,
> 
> From the sila stand point, I think Buddhism looks similar to other
> religions at the most superficial level.  Beyond that there aren't 
many
> similarities.   from a non-specific standpoint, all Buddha teachings
> are beautiful at the beginning, beautiful in the middle, and 
beautiful
> at the end.  His teachings are profound refined, and his panna about
> realities is unmatched.  I can't certainly say the same thing about
> other religions.
> 
> In the more specific standpoints, here's what I found:
> 1) Sila in Buddhism has many levels: from sila without panna, sila 
with
> panna, sila with Satipatthana, and sila with maggha.  Now, if you 
have
> sila because it's the will/teaching of god.  Is that Sila with or
> without panna?
> 
> 2) People with different levels of panna perform sila for different
> purposes: because it's good, because it will bring you good things 
in
> return, or because it contributes to the path to Nibhanna.  In
> Christianity, isn't it true that even if you perform sila, the 
result
> is still uncertain.  It depends on god to make the judgement whether 
or
> not you are worthy.  The results of sila are subjective at best, but
> the results of sila in Buddhism are certain: it is simply how things
> work.
> 
> --- Dan Dalthorp <> wrote:
> > I agree for the most part. However, I'd say that on a superficial 
> > level, they appear completely different. On a more intermediate 
level
> > 
> > (once we get beyond the obvious differences in language and 
methods
> > of 
> > expressing truth), they appear very similar. On a deeper level, 
> > though, they are once again very different. 
> I would love to hear more specific details of why you say this. 
> Exception for the wordings and the outside appearances of person
> performign sila (not killing, not lying, etc.), I see no similarity.  
> 
> > Part of the difference is
> > 
> > that Christianity does not have a detailed description of the 
path. 
> > When pressed on what the path is, the response is that "faith is a 
> > gift from the Holy Spirit," which is quite a different from 
Buddha's 
> > [paraphrase of Rhys David's translation]: "Work out your own
> > salvation 
> > with diligence"--and then explicit instructions on how to do it!
> The Buddha teaches realities as things really are.  I see huge
> differences between Buddhism and other religion, betwen truths and
> non-truths.  What are the similarities?
> 
> > 
> > Another, less important but critical difference is the 
> > different emphasis on Jesus' two commandments: 1. Love God with 
all 
> > your heart; and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Theravada
> > Buddhists 
> > put greater emphasis on the former (internal, spiritual), and 
> > Christianity puts more emphasis on the latter. Both traditions do 
> > emphasize both "commandments," but the weight put on each is 
> > different.
> I also don't see how you say the first view point is a Buddhist view
> point?  That's certainly not matching any of the Buddha's teachings,
> perhaps not even matching to the teachings by Mahasi!  There is no 
god:
> it's not a person, and it's not animal: there can be no Metta toward
> god.  
> 
> kom
> 
> 
> 

 
2853 From:  
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 10:03pm
Subject: Re: Giving and Taking Offence

 
  Dear Kom and Sarah,

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-
spoken.
It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? 

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken
affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of
good-will. 

"A statement endowed with these five factors is well-spoken, not ill-
spoken. It
is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people." 

Anguttara Nikaya V.198
Vaca Sutta - A Statement
Translated by Thanissaro Bhikku

Please note that 'well-spelled' is not included here.  As I've never 
known (either of) you to violate any of the other injunctions above, 
I think you're off the hook, Khun Kom!  

mike

p.s.  Wish I spelled HALF as well in a second or third language...

---  "tikmok"  wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for your well thought-out reponse to my message, and thanks 
for
> attempting to mend any rift.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> > Mispellings of pali terms, for examples, are
> > understandably a hindrance
> > to understanding the discussions.  Clearly akusala
> > vipaka for those who
> > endure them, and possibly akusala kamma for those
> > who propagate them.
> > My apology to all.
> >I wouldn't put it so seriously, Kom... I really
> >wouldn't see this as akusala kamma for a start! The
> >vipaka will have to wait for another post!
> >What about all my typo mistakes?
> 
> Can't help it.  I am a serious guy.  Seriously, though, I took no 
offence on
> the suggestion that I had many slips of mispellings.  Besides the 
fact that
> it is true, sometimes I am just lazy, or ran out of time, to make 
sure that
> the spellings are all right.  If I am lazy, that is certaily 
akusala.  It
> may have no malice intention, but that's akusala nonetheless.
> 
> Anumoddhana for reminding yet once again that even while doing 
something
> that can be superficially thought of kusala "deed", it may be, in 
fact,
> akusala or kusala may be alternately rising with akusala.
> 
> kom
> 
> 

 
2854 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2001 11:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha

 
  Kom

> Although the
> understanding about Satipathanna was exact, but the
> samatha
> understanding I had before was derived from an
> exposure to an
> anapanasati technique, which could be way off from
> the technique that
> may actually work.   The concentration on breath, as
> taught by the
> school, certainly does not separate the porathamatha
> characteristics as
> different dhatus.  Rather, it was taught as a whole
> aggregate: you
> concentrate on the breath however way you can
> observe it: contact
> (hardness), warmth (dejo), and motion (apo).

As I understand it, the practice of samatha is not
undertaken by deciding to concentrate on the object in
question.  There is far more to it than this.  Nor is
the practice, as described in the Visuddhimagga, a
matter of concentrating on the breath as hardness,
warmth etc.
(Here again, I may differ from Robert.  But then he’s
off list for the time being …)

> However, I am willing to take Robert's explanation
> as a hypothesis. 
> Obviously, in order for this to be samatha, there
> must be panna
> arising.   Now this gets slightly more interesting. 
> There is panna
> rising with the citta cognizing a paramatha
> arammana, but the panna is
> not at the satipatthana level, i.e., the fact that
> it is just a dhatu
> and not self is not penetrated.  I didn't consider
> the possibility of
> panna arising with citta cognizing a paramatha
> arammana not being
> Satipatthana before.   Now, I ask you two (and
> anybody else), is this
> possible?

If one is focussing on, for example, the hardness that
is breath, with a view to developing samatha, that
would be thinking about hardness, just as is focusing
on the hardness that appears at the body-door now. 
Accordingly, the arammana is pannati (object of citta
that thinks).  As to whether there would be any level
of panna, I would think not, in either case (speaking
for myself, at least).


> After the breath becomes nimita (how does breath
> become nimita?  I
> don't think anybody has answered this question yet,
> although I don't
> need an answer anyway), the arammana is obviously
> pannati.  Also, as I
> understand it, the breath becomes so fine that the
> paramatha
> charactertics cannot be "observed" at some stage in
> the development
> anyway.

The breath does not become nimitta.  The breath
becomes more and more subtle, until it no longer
manifests.  Later, a nimitta appears.  The nimitta may
appear in one of many forms. (Vis VIII 208-216).
This is an extremely advanced stage of samatha, at
least by today’s standards.  We know so little about
the beginning stages of samatha.

> > Knowledge of
> > the difference between the 2 kinds of rupa
> > (conditioned by citta vs. conditioned by utu)
> would be
> > panna of the level of samatha bhavana, I suppose.
> Don't understand how one can differentiate the two
> without any kind of
> "special" nana, as Robert has said.  The dejo dhatu
> in the rupa kalapa
> conditioned by citta (citta samuthana) almost
> immediately conditions
> the rupa kalapa (utu-samuthana) to arise.  The
> poramatha
> characteristics are identical.   How can you tell
> the differences?  

I agree with your observations on this.  I think I
meant to say that panna of the level of samatha could
tell whether the object is breath (or something we
normally take for breath) or is, for example,
something we usually taken for the nose or lip.  What
I am trying to say is that panna of the level of
samatha does not allow any confusion as to the
meditation object.  But as you say, that level of
panna would not know anything about the conditioning
factors at play.

> > The difference between these 2 kinds of rupa is of
> no
> > significance in the development of satipatthana,
> since
> > satipatthana does not require the arising of
> awareness
> > in relation to any particular reality.  And as far
> as
> > I know, the characteristic of, say, hardness, is
> the
> > same whenever it appears to sati ie it does not
> differ
> > according to its conditioning factor/s.
> Now, this is expounded on so many time that this
> "appears" easy.  Whew,
> at least there is no controversy.

Yes, it’s a relief, isn’t it!
Thanks for your perceptive comments and challenging
questions.

Jonothan



 
2855 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 0:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dhd5

--- Dan Dalthorp <> wrote:
 > Dear Jonathon,
> I don't find anything contradictory between Mahasi's
> and Buddhagosa's 
> comments. 

Thanks for clarifying this, and my apologies for
misreading your post by inferring that you did.


Buddhagosa does not discuss
> consciousnesses immediately 
> before bhaya-nana arises. Instead, he describes the
> experience of 
> bhaya-nana itself. Mahasi's comments apparently
> refer to an instant of 
> real fear which immediately spins into bhaya-nana as
> the mind reacts 
> wisely to the incipient "fear" before it develops
> into 
> full-fledged dosa. He does use the phrase "At that
> time...", but 
> everything happens very quickly... His "at that
> time" may be a slip 
> into everyday language and not a real confusion of
> the significance of 
> each individual thought moment. I believe that
> Mahasi was wise enough 
> to understand that panna does not arise coincident
> with domanassa. 

I would like to look more closely at the 2 texts
before commenting.

On the question discussed in our other exchange, if
there is no inconsistency with the Tipitaka, I’m not
sure why you refer to it/them as ‘deviation’.  This is
strong language!  Why not ‘interpretation’ or some
other less perjorative term?

Jonothan



 
2856  
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 0:24am
Subject: Re: Giving and Taking Offence

 
  Dear Sarah,

   Thank you for a very nice and gently post.

Anumodana to your kusala citta,
Alex

---  Sarah Procter Abbott 
 wrote:
> 
> Dear Kom, Amara, Alex, Shin, Mike

 
2857 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:12am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Jonathon wrote:
> On the question discussed in our other exchange, if
> there is no inconsistency with the Tipitaka, I'm not
> sure why you refer to it/them as `deviation'.  This is
> strong language!  Why not `interpretation' or some
> other less perjorative term?
I sure don't mean my 'deviation' to have any pejorative 
connotations. I am using it in a strictly neutral sense of a 
"deviation" from Tipitaka is an idea that is "not included" in 
Tipitaka. This quasi-definition of 'deviation' comes very close to the 
dictionary sense and close enough to the meaning that I wish to convey 
that I am comfortable with the word. If you can help me find a more 
suitable alternative that you won't read as pejorative, I'd be happy 
to use it. 

'Interpretation' wouldn't work. For example, I don't think the 
workings of internal combustion engines can be explained by anyone's 
interpretation of Tipitaka. I think you need to go outside Tipitaka 
(i.e. deviate from Tipitaka) to find such an explanation.

 
2858 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:27am
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Mike

I must say I have learnt a lot from reading your posts about inter-
personal relations, a skill in which I am rather lacking.  Would you 
mind if I copy your formula for use with my own posts?

> I certainly didn't mean to criticise.
> Please excuse my recklessness.
> I've been going a little too fast, trying to catch up--
> I'll have a look back and try to clarify my meaning.
> No offense, Ma'am!

I think I am getting the hang of it.  I just append this, suitably 
modified, to any post which might seem to question anything Amara has 
said.  Sort of a `thanks in advance' for sensitive situations.

Jonothan

BTW, does anyone have an off-list address for Robert?

 
2859 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:01am
Subject: Re: Dan's view

 
  > I have a similar view with Dan but I'm quite clear about the 
distance that 
> sets the Dhamma appart frm others.I wonder if any of you guys read 
an 
> article on the net condemming the Dhamma?(eg.Catholic 
Appologetics)Frm there 
> you can see the striking difference .I believe the Dhamma as 
proclaimed by 
> the Teacher is the most unique as every phenomenon is explainable 
and there 
> are no hidden unfigured out things like mysteries.This is also the 
only 
> teaching that challenges humans to face suffering straight in the 
face.


Dear Kelvin,

I think that the main difference between Buddhism and other religions 
is that most others do not have bhavana.  All religions have dana 
(giving) and sila (rules to behave in society) to some extent, but 
without the knowledge of what the citta is bhavana cannot be rightly 
developed.  Before the Buddha bhavana as in samatha bhavana was taught 
since they knew the difference between kusala and akusala but not that 
there was no self doing the practice, so the moments of doing the 
samatha are exempt from kilesa of any kind, but having attained the 
jhana of different levels, they have the belief of the self who had 
attained with such purity, and mana and all the latent kilesa would 
still be there, so when the conditions come, they would be cause for 
the coarser kilesa to arise again, so that they are always prisoners 
of samsara, they could not end rebirth, though as the result of the 
jhana they might be born a brahma for an eternity in time.

After the vipaka (result of kamma, here the jhana citta) of being born 
in the brahma world had finished giving results, one could be born a 
human again, and have to begin over again, but with the Buddha's 
teachings, vipassana, bhavana was taken to the ultimate level, where 
rebirth is completely ended.  The self is shown not to exist and the 
'practice' is towards the realization of this truth, no matter with 
samatha or any kusala activities occurring simultaneously or not.  
Without the self, dana is not only giving for the good of others, but 
not to be attached to what is 'ours' as well.  Sila is not only to 
refrain from ill deeds (physical and mental) but to see our 
accumulations more clearly (mental) as well.  And bhavana need not be 
for those who live in the conditions favorable to the jhana arising 
such as live in the right place, wear the right clothing and eat the 
right food, etc. (in order to avoid the hindrances that keep the jhana 
from arising) which could only exist in an ascetic or recluse's life, 
but for anyone who studies realities as they really are.  The 
hindrances to vipassana are far fewer, and it can be practiced 
anywhere, unlike samatha, so that in a way the physical conditions are 
much easier to fulfil.  But the self could be much harder to 
eradicate, depending on the individual's accumulations.

For some individuals avid of results, sitting still might seem more 
peaceful than moving about, such as going to work, but vipassana is 
such a personal practice that people moving about might be more 
mindful than sitting with lobha expecting things to happen.  And when 
the jhana do arise, they could be cause for more lobha, clinging to 
such refined states of the citta.  The higher level of accumulated 
satipatthana also automatically bring the jhana citta with the arising 
of the nana, without ever practicing samatha bhavana (except as 
momentary development along with vipassana in daily life, when sati 
also arises with ekaggata cetasika in the citta).  In other words, 
vipassana encompasses samatha, but not the other way around, otherwise 
the Buddha's teachers, Aralatapas ans Utakatapas (spelling?) would 
have attained as well.  As it is they were born in the brahma plane 
and are there to this day.

This is why the Buddha's teachings could never be the same as any 
other teaching on earth, it is unique because of the provability, 
profundity as well as the person who taught it, whose accumulations 
towards the teaching was accumulated over zillions of centuries.  His 
teachings always remind us to study the present moment as realities 
arise through the six dvara no matter where we are.  Studying his 
teachings are more interesting to me more than trying to read between 
the lines for other teachings similitude to Buddhism, personally.  But 
we all have our individual accumulations, so whatever helps one 
understand the Dhamma better,

Anumosana in your studies,

Amara

 
2860 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:08am
Subject: Re: Giving and Taking Offence

 
  > "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not 
ill-
> spoken.
> It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? 
> 
> "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken
> affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind 
of
> good-will. 
> 
> "A statement endowed with these five factors is well-spoken, not 
ill-
> spoken. It
> is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya V.198
> Vaca Sutta - A Statement
> Translated by Thanissaro Bhikku
> 
> Please note that 'well-spelled' is not included here.  As I've never 
> known (either of) you to violate any of the other injunctions above, 
> I think you're off the hook, Khun Kom!  


Dear Mike,

Thanks for the passage, which also lets me off the hook, having made 
my share of typos as everyone knows.

Amara

 
2861 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:22am
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  > > No offense, Ma'am!
> 
> I think I am getting the hang of it.  I just append this, suitably 
> modified, to any post which might seem to question anything Amara 
has 
> said.  Sort of a `thanks in advance' for sensitive situations.
> 
> Jonothan
> 
> BTW, does anyone have an off-list address for Robert?


Jonothan,

I hoope you do not mean to imply that I am above being questioned, 
after all the mistakes and appologies I have made to everyone!  In 
fact I think I enjoy questions, especially when they open up new 
fields of discussions, but corrections that are unfounded can get a 
little tiresome, most of all when the person should know the facts 
better than I do.

Amara

 
2862 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:39am
Subject: Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  > > BTW, does anyone have an off-list address for Robert?


I also meant to give you Robert's e-mail, 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=194233250056127134213056109067021253018143238218134229182055166127046249149006227237009204035181

Amara

 
 
2863 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:58am
Subject: Bangkok Post

 
  Dear all,

A little piece of good news about the website, this in the 
January 10, 2001 Bangkok Post newspaper the website review column,
Dot.co.th Highlights, gave really good review of our site and 
mentioned this discussion group as well!

Anumodana in all the kusala cetana,

Amara

 
2864 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 0:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Precepts - Intoxicants

 
  dear metta jon,--->



--->"One or two people tried to tell me that if someone is a "Bodhisattva
with a high level of realization" that they could drink alcohol and
not be affected."  My response to that is: if they have such a high
level of realization, then they would have no attachment to or
craving for alcohol, and thus would not drink it.  One man said to
me: "But the Buddha was enlightened, and he still ate food."  To
which i responded: "Food is necessary for life; alcohol is not.  The
Buddha ate food so that he could support his body and mind to teach
the Dhamma (Dharma) to others."  Had i been in a sarcastic frame of
mind, i could have said, "When YOU become a Bodhisattva with a high
level of realization, then talk to me about it."<--------

:o)   !!



----> "Some Buddhists will tell you that enlightened beings don't need to
follow precepts.  This is true, but ONLY because their behavior
automatically conforms to the Dhamma.  When your character is such
that killing, stealing, lying, etc., are IMPOSSIBLE for you to
commit, then you don't need the precepts to tell you not to do those
things--because you wouldn't do them anyway.  The great sage named
Bodhidharma was quoted as saying: "Buddhas don't keep precepts;
Buddhas don't break precepts."<--------


Right! "keep precepts cos you break precepts."

:o)


Thanks.

 
2865 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:New year resolution

 
  Dear Shin,

>>"I am not here to attack
anybody or cause any akusula citta for anyone, and if my letter has attack
any of you, pls forgive me because my intentions are not to offend you in
any ways."<<

this is obvious,

Thanks

:o)

 
2866 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 0:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: "He thinks THIS! He conceives THAT!"

 
  dear Dan ,

you said >> "Jesus was not a follower of Buddha (he most
likely had never heard of Buddha), but a man who feels only compassion
for the men who torture him to death IS a follower of the Buddha's
teachings. Even though he wasn't at all fluent in the language of
Abhidhamma, Jesus displayed an incredible amount of wisdom. Can this
man, who never heard even heard the word "Buddha","<<


But I think some recent studies suggest otherwise,
Eventhough I cant mention any links or facts here , If I remember correctly I
have read some articles about,.

1. Jesus having some connections with buddist monasteries in middle east,
2. Jesus actually being a some sort of a buddhist monk for some short period of
time.
etc..

[ but of course , having read the holy bible and other scriptures , I personally
think that even if Jesus did hear some buddhist teaching at some point of time
he did not grasp it well or propagate it well to his followers..]

I know that this is not directly connected with this discussion thread , but
felt like telling this


Thanks

 
2867 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Amara

This was really rather naughty of me, but I just
couldn't resist!

I do hope you will see it as a liberty on my part that
is born of our 25-plus years of dhamma-friendship.  I
believe you are already aware of the waggish
tendencies lurking under my otherwise serious
exterior.

Amara, let me say how much I have appreciated the many
helpful posts you have been putting out lately.  There
has obviously been much kusala thought put into them. 
I look forward to reading many more.

Jonothan


--- amara chay  wrote: > > > No
offense, Ma'am!
> > 
> > I think I am getting the hang of it.  I just
> append this, suitably 
> > modified, to any post which might seem to question
> anything Amara 
> has 
> > said.  Sort of a `thanks in advance' for sensitive
> situations.
> > 
> > Jonothan
> > 
> > BTW, does anyone have an off-list address for
> Robert?
> 
> 
> Jonothan,
> 
> I hoope you do not mean to imply that I am above
> being questioned, 
> after all the mistakes and appologies I have made to
> everyone!  In 
> fact I think I enjoy questions, especially when they
> open up new 
> fields of discussions, but corrections that are
> unfounded can get a 
> little tiresome, most of all when the person should
> know the facts 
> better than I do.
> 
> Amara



 
2868 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Dear Friends,


--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: >
Amara
> 
> This was really rather naughty of me, but I just
> couldn't resist!
> 
.....and if any of you have any advice on how I can
moderate the moderator, please let me know!

Sarah 


 
2869 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Precepts - Intoxicants

 
  Dear metta Jon,

Firstly, another welcome to the group and what a
useful post to enter with.

--- Metta Jon  wrote: > 

> One should avoid this occasion for evil, this
> madness, this delusion,
> this joy of fools."
> 

When I was a child, my father was a bright, popular,
Cambridge educated lawyer and a very affectionate
father who loved reading Bertrand Russell. He used to
drink socially and occasionally to excess but was
never abusive in anyway and I never knew him to tell a
lie.

He died at 60 as an alcoholic and in the last few
years lost everything: his wife, his family, his work,
his wealth, his health, his reputation.....

So these are poignant reminders. 

On a lighter note, we (usually I) always invite new
members to share a little background (or a lot is fine
too) so that we can get to 'know' you a little more
and hear how you've come to join us.

Look forward to hearing more of your excellent,
well-researched posts.

Sarah




 
2870 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 3:05pm
Subject: List Housekeeping

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear > 
> Actually, I'm much to stingy of space on my hard
> drive--I keep these 'folders' on Yahoo's server. 
> While you have a message open, there's a little
> window
> in the upper right corner of you screen reading,
> 'Choose Folder'.  If you select 'New Folder' from
> that
> list, then click on 'Move', you'll be prompted for a
> name for the new 'folder'.  Once you've filled that
> in, the message will be saved in that folder
> indefinitely.  After that, you can click on the '+'
> sign next to 'Folders' (to the left of your message
> window), and select the 'folder' you'd like to view.
> 
> Hope this is of some use!
> 
> mike    
> 
Thanks for this (will try it when I'm not posting or
reading).

Actually there's so much useful information in the
archives after only a year and none of us ever have
time to go back and trace messages for any newbies. 

What we really need (I think) is some sort of index
system to help us all, but I've no idea how this is
done. Any volunteers out there? Another (smallish)
problem is that s'times the threads lead away from the
original subject headings....

I'm sure other groups (perhaps the longer established
Christian groups) have sorted out these difficulties
and have some tips we could 'borrow'! 

Thanks 

Sarah



2871 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 3:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  Dear Jim,

--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear 
> The 2 older translations of Abhidh-s (CPD abbr.) you
> mention are
> probably the same 2 I have by Narada and S.Z. Aung.

exactly

> I don't have Bodhi's
> translation but have been thinking about ordering a
> copy. 

I highly recommend this.....it's made the others quite
redundant for us.

I most often use
> Narada's translation and notes but only for
> reference and have not tried to
> work my way through it from cover to cover. 

I think this is the best way....I'm not sure how much
one gains from reading books like this cover to cover
but we all have different ways. 

However,
> the Abhidh-s does
> contain a lot of useful information that helps me to
> understand some of the
> messages on this list. Some recent examples were
> those concerning the hetus
> of individuals which Alex and Amara posted and also
> in my reading of
> 'Realities and Concepts' there is much in it that is
> coming from Abhidh-s
> and its tika. So I'm interested in becoming better
> acquainted with these
> texts in Pali. 

I'm impressed. Pls share any points of particular
interest (although I know it's much easier to do this
if the translation is on line and one can just put a
link..)

I have four versions of Abhidh-s and
> two versions of its tika
> to work with plus the two translations mentioned
> above.

Your cabin begins to sound like a large dhamma
library, (a cosy one of course with that fire
burning!) 
> 
> Glad to be back on board! Normally, whenever I leave
> my cottage I also leave
> behind my access to the internet and I would have
> quite a bit of catching up
> to do when I got back. But this time while in the
> city I bought a laptop
> computer and was able to connect online from it
> while there and keep up with
> reading the messages. 

I'm beginning to think we're going to have to do the
same (i.e. invest in a laptop) for travels just to
keep up with the reading here!

I also felt that it was a good
> idea to have a laptop
> as a backup in case my desktop computer fails to
> work as it did several
> times last year.

Glad to hear you won't have any excuses for dropping
out at those times! I can't stress enough how glad we
are to have your Pali expertise (not to mention 8
copies of Abhid-s w/ tikas) to refer to.

Best wishes too,

Sarah


 
2872 From: kelvin liew peng chuan   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:23pm
Subject: Re:re:Dan's view

 
  Saddhu Amara for the insight shared on the diference between the Dhamma and 
other religious teaching.Thank you for the explanation.
                                      with metta ~ Kelvin

 
2873 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  Mike

> Just to update you on my efforts to digitize the
> tapes
> Robert sent me:  I still haven't overcome the
> technological hurdles to getting these onto the web.
> 
> As it turns out, the sound card needed to run the
> software to re-master the recordings is not
> compatible
> with my computer.  I think the answer will be a new
> computer, so it may be a little while yet.  I'll
> keep
> you posted...

In Bangkok (at the Foundation) they have put Khun
Sujin's talks into MP3 format on CD-ROM's. If you
think this experience might be helpful to you, I am
told that the person to contact is Khun Unnop whose
email address is the one given as the cc addressee for
tapes and books orders (I will post it as soon as i
manage to locate it)

Jonothan


 
2874 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: ACCOUNT has been OPEN

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends,
    Today we have opened an account at the BANGKOK BANK under the name of K.Sukin. M.Betty and myself. At least, two people will have to sign the account together to be abke to withdrawal the money from the account.
    To make things easier to understand, I will make write it clearly at the below for your future process of the contribution to the printing of the Paramattadhamma Book and the handling charges for the books to be sent to you.
1. The account name is   LIN,SHIAU-IN
    Bangkok Bank, Bangkapi Branch 
    Account name:-105-4-368194
    Swift Address :-BKKBTHBK
2. Pls convert all the donation and handling charges into Thai currency from your side. So to reduce the banking charges here in Thailand which in the end will leave your donation to nothing because every charge will take at least 250 baht for the convertion in Thailand( example:- if you transfer US$ 5 dollar for the postage, this will not be enough for the postage charges). So we suggest you to convert the contributions and charges into Thai currency from your side. Pls kindly talk to the International or currency transfer at your bank in your country.
3. All the postage charges will be posted on the website very soon. We are going to find out about the charges through courier and post. So anyone can use either of these services.
4. Once you have transfered the donation or charges into the account, pls kindly inform me or email me (and cc M. Betty, K.Amara,in case my mail server is down), so I can keep an accurate record and account of it. This is a very sensitive issue so we would not like to make any mistakes.
5. Once we get the hang of it, we will post the balance of the account monthly onto the website for your reference. 
 
If there is anything, you would like to suggest in this matter. Pls feel free to do so. Thankyou.
with metta,
Shin 
 
2875 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] ACCOUNT has been OPEN

 
  Dear Shin & Amara.

Congratulations on your work towards the printing of
Amara’s translation of 'Summary'.

While there may be some list members who would like to
contribute, we feel that the subject of printing and
donations generally is not really appropriate for this
list.  Some other members have commented on this too.

We notice that you plan to use Amara’s website to post
the information.  By all means feel free to post a
link to the website here from time to time.  But as a
general rule, messages regarding the printing and
donations should be exchanged off this list.

Good luck with your efforts.

Jonothan & Sarah
(Moderators)



--- shinlin  wrote: 
> Dear Dhamma Friends,
>     Today we have opened an account at the BANGKOK
> BANK under the name of
> K.Sukin. M.Betty and myself. At least, two people
> will have to sign the
> account together to be abke to withdrawal the money
> from the account.



 
2876 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:22pm
Subject: Re: ACCOUNT has been OPEN

 
  > While there may be some list members who would like to
> contribute, we feel that the subject of printing and
> donations generally is not really appropriate for this
> list.  Some other members have commented on this too.
> 
> We notice that you plan to use Amara's website to post
> the information.  By all means feel free to post a
> link to the website here from time to time.  But as a
> general rule, messages regarding the printing and
> donations should be exchanged off this list.


Dear all,

Actually it is my fault that Shin posted the information on this list, 
probably out of the Thai custom where it is considered presenting 
others with the opportunities to anumodana (have empathic joy) which 
in Buddhism is considered kusala citta.  This aspect of accumulating 
kusala is discussed a little in the article, 'The Master Avengers' in 
the the intermediate section in <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, by the 
way.  In one of the sutta, there is even the possibility of the person 
who anumodanas to accumulate an even greater kusala than the person 
who did the deed, as in one where a newly born deva is visited by 
another who was from a higher plane.  The latter told the newcomer 
that they had been sisters in their last lifetimes and that they had 
married the same person.  The newly arrived deva then recalled that 
she had been the first wife and had done much dana in that life and 
could not understand why the minor wife who did not have much 
possessions was reborn in a higher plane than herself, but the 
former sister/minor wife explained that it was because she had 
anumodana with mudita the kusala that her former sister had done, and 
the kusala resulted in her higher rebirth.  I will ask for the proper 
references if you wish, unless someone could please find it for us.

Betty and I talked about anumodana just yesterday, I think, and it 
does not mean 'thank you' as some might think, it is mudita in others' 
kusala, therefore it is for the person who has the kusala citta 
arising in seeing other's good deeds.  As kusala is sometimes hard to 
find, most people avid of kusala citta like to hear of others' kusala 
so they could have a moment where their citta evolves in dana, sila or 
bhavana, and to anumodana is bhavana, peace from lobha, dosa, and 
moha, in momentary peace.  I am sorry we seem to have caused the 
opposite reaction and will therefore ask Shin not to post them on the 
list any more.

Just to explain the situation more clearly about the announcement on 
the website, there will be none about the printing.  We are in fact 
only considering placing an order form for the free books with the 
difference that on the web so many people asked for them that some 
people are not sure if they really wanted to read them or just ordered 
out of curiosity, so we are considering setting up an order form where 
the reader participates in the shipping and handling costs, nothing to 
do with the printing of this new book in the least.  We have not 
discussed the pros and cons of announcing the printing in the website, 
so far.  We certainly will at our next meeting.  

In short it was not our intention to cause dosa in anyone, nor do we 
think we did anything wrong, having never asked for any contributions 
of any kind.  Rather we thought some people might like the opportunity 
to anumodana, the directly opposite feeling.  Since it has turned out 
this way, there will be no further mention of the printings or 
donations.

Again, Shin was only doing what I had asked her to do and I think my 
intentions were entirely altruistic, sorry if some are offended,

Amara

 
2877 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 11, 2001 0:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote: 

> Dear Sarah,

> >...'He
> > who
> > practises this practice of the Arousing of
> > Mindfulness
> > is called a bhikkhu'....'Accordingly it is said:
> > 
> >     "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm,
> >      Tamed, humble,pure,a man who does no harm
> >      To aught that lives, that one's a brahmin
> true.
> >      An ascetic and mendicant too'Dhp142
> 
> Nice citation! Especially in the context of the
> 'robes' thread.  As you may recall, I have yet to
> read
> the commentaries--so you may be engaging in a duel
> of
> wits with an unarmed opponent...

Mike, you're a LOT more familiar with the suttas than
I am and really I've read preciously little of the
commentaries, but sometimes the extra notes and maps
do help!
 
> Sarah, I'm NOT disagreeing with you.  But the
> distinction comes not from reading the suttas, but
> from reading the commentaries.  I hope you know
> that,
> by now, I'm convinced of the value of that.

Well I think it comes from the way the suttas are
read...as we've discussed before, the suttas can be
read with many different kinds of understanding. As
Robert said in a post, how he reads the Visuddhimagga
now is completely different from when he read it the
first time. The commentaries just give a little extra
help or a few tips but can also be misread. Same with
the abhidhamma: it can be the best friend or the worst
foe depending on how it is understood and the purpose
it is read.
>  
> > it referred to night and day and K.Sujin explained
> > that night refers to a 24hr period as in booking a
> > hotel for 2nts!  
> 
> Not surprising at all.  Same expression is common
> around the ancient world, in the form of 'moons'
> rather than 'suns'.

There you go...yu have some extra tips that I don't
hape from your wider knowledge in these areas!!
> 
> Well, it's of great interest to me, in particular,
> but
> more to the point, as an example of the value of
> approaching the dhammavinaya by way of the
> commentaries, and therefore of the great benefit of
> having the members of this group as 'admirable
> friends...

Yes, I agree on both accounts.

BTW, I meant to thank you for also posting the link
and comments on Piyajatika Sutta (From One Who is
Dear). It's been a condition for some useful
reflection even though I had nothing to add because
the Sutta really said it all! 

Sarah


 
 
2878 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 11, 2001 11:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dan

> I sure don't mean my 'deviation' to have any
> pejorative 
> connotations. I am using it in a strictly neutral
> sense of a 
> "deviation" from Tipitaka is an idea that is "not
> included" in 
> Tipitaka. This quasi-definition of 'deviation' comes
> very close to the 
> dictionary sense and close enough to the meaning
> that I wish to convey 
> that I am comfortable with the word. If you can help
> me find a more 
> suitable alternative that you won't read as
> pejorative, I'd be happy 
> to use it. 

Thanks for the explanation.

But I would be interested to know what terms you would
use to distinguish, in the case of writings on the
dhamma, those ‘deviations’ that are consistent with
the Buddha’s teaching from those that are not.

I appreciate that in one sense it doesn’t really
matter what label we attach to things.  But I’m
intrigued by your choice of terms.

I seem to recall the Buddha saying in one sutta that
dhamma is dhamma in whatever form it is found or from
whatever source – but is it your position that
anything not actually from the mouth of the Buddha
falls into the category of a ‘deviation’?  Would you,
for example, refer to the commentaries to the Tipitaka
also as ‘deviations’?

Jonothan



 
2879 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 11, 2001 11:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Mike

This is not an easy area to discuss, but I will do the
best I can.

----------------------------
> > Breath, it seems to me, is a concept.  Like with
> the
> > concept ‘body’, it is possible that there can be
> > awareness of one of the realities that we normally
> > take for breath/body, and at such moments no
> concept
> > of breath/body appears.  But there is no
> paramattha
> > dhamma ‘breath’, just as there is no paramattha
> > dhamma
> > ‘body’.
> 
> I was instructed, for this reason, to focus on 'the
> rise and fall of the abdomen', rather than the
> breath
> at the tip of the nose.  The rationale was that, if
> one focused on the sensation of the breath at the
> tip
> of the nose, one's attention might be taken instead
> by
> the wind element, or the fire (coolness?) element,
> or
> the wind (motion?) element--so, better to focus on
> the
> "rise and fall of the abdomen"--which I'm now
> certain
> is paññati, at best--as least the way *I* did it...
-----------------------------------------------

‘Breath at the tip of the nose’ and ‘rise and fall of
the abdomen’ are both pannati.  One is mentioned in
the Visuddhimagga in the description of samatha with
breath as object while the other is not.  (Also, one
is a reference to breath as we know it, while the
other is an indicator of breathing but not what would
normally be thought of as breath.)

-----------------------------------------------
> > Breath as object of samatha is a concept.  Breath
> as
> > object of satipatthana, however, is a reference to
> > awareness of one of the realities that we take for
> > breath.
> 
> Do you think that this was what, specifically, was
> meant in the Anapanasati Sutta?
------------------------------------------

Yes, that is how I would understand it

------------------------------------------
> > Knowledge of
> > the difference between the 2 kinds of rupa
> > (conditioned by citta vs. conditioned by utu)
> would
> > be
> > panna of the level of samatha bhavana, I suppose.
> > 
> > The difference between these 2 kinds of rupa is of
> > no
> > significance in the development of satipatthana,
> > since
> > satipatthana does not require the arising of
> > awareness
> > in relation to any particular reality.  
> 
> But doesn't satipaññaa require the arising of
> awareness in relation to a paramattha dhamma?  I was
> beginning to think that this is the difference
> between
> paramattha and non-paramattha dhammas (e.g. paññati)
-------------------------------------------------

Yes, satipatthana is the awareness of a reality
(paramattha dhamma) that appears now.  So while
‘breath’ could not be the object of satipatthana,
either of the 2 kinds of rupas mentioned could.

-----------------------------------------------
> > This is a very complex area.  I have only ever
> tried
> > to understand the basics, because these are
> > confusing
> > enough!
> 
> Tell me about it...!
----------------------------------------------

I prefer actually to talk about satipatthana, since
the opportunities to do so with like-minded friends
are so very limited (unlike the opportunities to learn
more about samatha).  But I am of course happy to
discuss any kind of kusala in the context of
satipatthana.

Thanks for prompting the consideration.

Jonothan



 
2880 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 0:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Jonothan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> This is not an easy area to discuss, but I will do
> the
> best I can.

Actually, I think your comments make it quite clear,
especially together with the other excellent posts on
this topic.  Maybe your discussion is improving with
practice--or maybe I'm just benefitting from
repitition, as usual...

I've just reached the chapters in AIDL that discuss
rupa.  I'm finding that difficult too, but it's
beginning to make sense.  I think this will all be a
lot clearer when I understand (conceptually) the
characteristics of rupa and its relationship to nama
better than I do now.  I'm glad we have abhidhamma for
this purpose--I don't think I would've ever figured
out these distinctions from the suttas or by
(especially confused!) meditation.

Thanks again...

mike


 
2881 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 1:07am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  In response to my use of the word "deviation", Jonathon wrote:
> But I would be interested to know what terms you would
> use to distinguish, in the case of writings on the
> dhamma, those `deviations' that are consistent with
> the Buddha's teaching from those that are not.
Gosh, I don't know. How about those that are "consistent with" vs. 
"not consistent with"? Or those that "accord with" vs. "contradict"?

> but is it your position that
> anything not actually from the mouth of the Buddha
> falls into the category of a `deviation'?  
I hesitate to answer because I don't know how you interpret the word 
"deviation". In my discussion with Amara, I referred to things not in 
the Tipitaka as "deviations" from the Tipitaka. Thus, the words of 
Buddhagosa, Mahasi, Amara, and Dan are all "deviations." Sometimes 
those deviations are "interpretations"; sometimes the deviations are 
"consistent with" Tipitaka but are not interpretations; and sometimes 
the deviations "contradict" Tipitaka. Sometimes deviations are not 
inconsistent with Tipitaka, but are just plain wrong (e.g., claiming 
that grape juice works just as well as gasoline in an internal 
combustion engine). I must reaffirm that this is a wholly neutral use 
of the term "deviation," and I do not intend any negative 
connotations. I think Amara understood what I meant by the term.

>Would you,
> for example, refer to the commentaries to the Tipitaka
> also as `deviations'?
Sure, I would call them "deviations" from Tipitaka. In addition, from 
what I've seen, they are consistent with Tipitaka and merely fill in 
some details that Tipitaka leaves out. 

Where did I come up with the idea to use that word? I thought of using 
the word "deviation" with the picture and dots analogy in mind. 
Tipitaka paints a picture of the landscape of the mind, but it 
contains only a bare outline; a simple, short, and concise summary of 
some of the important features. A slightly more refined version of the 
picture and dots analogy probably won't satisfy you any more than 
original version, but it may be helpful to someone else trying to 
follow this discussion (e.g. me!): In drawing a picture of the 
landscape of the mind, Tipitaka takes a black pen and draws the shape 
of the picture--like in a coloring book. The commentaries take color 
crayons and draw between the lines. That helps us see what it looks 
like, but to see the full picture in all its glory, we need to pick up 
the crayons ourselves. Sometimes we go outside the lines or use the 
wrong colors ("not consistent with Tipitaka"), but sometimes we are 
able to successfully and accurately add detail to the picture. When we 
are not drawing right on the lines, we are deviating from them. We can 
draw either inside the lines or outside the lines. We can use either 
the right colors or the wrong colors.

 
2882 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 11:08am
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > A slightly more refined version of 
the 
> picture and dots analogy probably won't satisfy you any more than 
> original version, but it may be helpful to someone else trying to 
> follow this discussion (e.g. me!): In drawing a picture of the 
> landscape of the mind, Tipitaka takes a black pen and draws the 
shape 
> of the picture--like in a coloring book. The commentaries take color 
> crayons and draw between the lines. That helps us see what it looks 
> like, but to see the full picture in all its glory, we need to pick 
up 
> the crayons ourselves. Sometimes we go outside the lines or use the 
> wrong colors ("not consistent with Tipitaka"), but sometimes we are 
> able to successfully and accurately add detail to the picture. When 
we 
> are not drawing right on the lines, we are deviating from them. We 
can 
> draw either inside the lines or outside the lines. We can use either 
> the right colors or the wrong colors.



Dear Dan,

Thank you for the clear explanation of your view of the Tipitaka, I 
think I understand even better now.  From this perspective the 
Tipitaka is so all encompassing that everything is included in its 
comprehensive outline, since nothing can escape being a dhamma 
(reality, truth, what exists), either nama 
(intelligence/consciousness) or rupa (that which is not 
intelligence/conscioousness), or one of the four paramattha-dhamma 
(citta, cetasika, rupa or nibbana), etc.  I would like to remark that 
in this analysis your internal combustion engine would also be 
included as a rupa too, you know.  

In the details, as you explained, many things cannot be found in the 
Tipitaka, especially modern things that did not exist in the Buddha's 
time.  But I must maintain that some of the things you consider 
deviations, such as the Commentaries, are taken more seriously than 
most of the later explanations, especially if they differ in any way, 
at least by me.  The teachings must be coherent and logical, 
otherwise they might lead us to misunderstandings and be a danger as 
Mike remarked, or at least a monumental waste of time.  Which is why 
I think we should study to know the logic of any teaching before 
'practicing' it on faith.  And any teachings should be always be 
compared to the teachings in the Tipitaka and comentaries as much as 
possible, to my mind.  

Of course you still wouldn't find things like your engine in dhamma 
teachings, unless you talked to Ivan (who is also on this list, but so 
far has written us only one letter if I remember correctly!  But then 
he is so busy...) who often compares the citta to an internal 
combustion engine and the cetasika as the different parts, and very 
logically too, I might add.  Anyway, I would like to tell you about a 
new product recently marketed in Thailand, called 'gasohol', a mixture 
of gasoline and alcohol, which made me think that if you fermented 
your grape juice a little...
=^_^=
Thanks for everything,

Amara

 
2883 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 11:15am
Subject: 

 
  Dear all,

We've put up 2 messages from this list in the Q&A section in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, about Biddhism/other religions,  If 
anyone would like to edit or add anything please contact me off-list. 
  You can do so by clicking on my underlined e-mail address at the 
head of the messages I wrote, instead of clicking on the 'reply' 
button as you would normally do.  I would like to invite you to 
suggest any other messages you would like to see added to the  Q&A 
section to facilitate future references, and I will ask the author's 
permission to put it there for us all.  

Thanks in advance, as always,

Amara

 
2884 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 0:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  Dear Sarah,

Jim:
>> I don't have Bodhi's
>> translation but have been thinking about ordering a
>> copy.

Sarah:
>I highly recommend this.....it's made the others quite
>redundant for us.

Okay, you have me convinced! I will go ahead and order a copy.

And thanks for your reply to my message. It was a pleasure to read.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2885 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 2:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Mike

In an earlier post I said-
------------------------------------------ 
Knowledge of the difference between the 2 kinds of
rupa (conditioned by citta vs. conditioned by utu)
would be panna of the level of samatha bhavana, I
suppose.  The difference between these 2 kinds of rupa
is of no significance in the development of
satipatthana, since satipatthana does not require the
arising of awareness in relation to any particular
reality.
-------------------------------------------

In my later post to you on this subject believe I
overlooked a point you were making about the reference
to satipatthana not requiring the arising of awareness
in relation to any particular reality.  

What I was trying to say was that the object of
satipatthana does not have to be any particular
reality, in the sense that it can be any reality
whatsoever.  This is in contrast to samatha where, as
we have discussed, only certain objects (the 40
objects of samatha) are appropriate.

Sorry to have missed this in my last response.

Jonothan


 
2886 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 3:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Dan,

--- Dan Dalthorp <> wrote: > In 
 
> ..... but to see the full picture in all its glory,
> we need to pick up 
> the crayons ourselves. Sometimes we go outside the
> lines or use the 
> wrong colors ("not consistent with Tipitaka"), but
> sometimes we are 
> able to successfully and accurately add detail to
> the picture. When we 
> are not drawing right on the lines, we are deviating
> from them. We can 
> draw either inside the lines or outside the lines.
> We can use either 
> the right colors or the wrong colors.
> 

WE can?     Are you sure?


Sarah



 
2887 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 3:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dan's view

 
  --- amara chay  wrote: > 
  
> Studying his 
> teachings are more interesting to me more than
> trying to read between 
> the lines for other teachings similitude to
> Buddhism, personally.  But 
> we all have our individual accumulations, so
> whatever helps one 
> understand the Dhamma better,
> 

I agree with Amara here.  Although it may be
interesting to study psychology, philosophy, science,
or other religions and to detect any similarities,
studying the Buddha's teachings themselves are a lot
more useful. In these, we learn about anatta.

Sarah


 
2888 From:  
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 5:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  dear dan,

eventho buddha has given us a handful of leaves thats because that IS what he
really intended to do...not because he got a 'time out'....he has said that in
the dhamma he preached that nothing is there to be added and nothing is there to
be removed.
the other leaves are the knowledges which are irrelevent for the cessession of
dukkha. Being samma sambuddha he knew every possible thing and knew what will
cause cessession of dukkha and what will not.


rgds

 
2889 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 9:07pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Amara wrote:
> But I must maintain that some of the things you consider 
> deviations, such as the Commentaries, are taken more seriously than 
> most of the later explanations, especially if they differ in any 
way, 
> at least by me.  The teachings must be coherent and logical, 
> otherwise they might lead us to misunderstandings and be a danger as 
> Mike remarked, or at least a monumental waste of time.  Which is why 
> I think we should study to know the logic of any teaching before 
> 'practicing' it on faith.  And any teachings should be always be 
> compared to the teachings in the Tipitaka and comentaries as much as 
> possible, to my mind.  
I agree. The Commentaries are to the best of my knowledge wholly 
consistent with Tipitaka. They have been well-established as 
"authoritative" and certainly should be taken more seriously than most 
of the later explanations. 

> Of course you still wouldn't find things like your engine in dhamma 
> teachings, unless you talked to Ivan (who is also on this list, but 
so 
> far has written us only one letter if I remember correctly!  But 
then 
> he is so busy...) who often compares the citta to an internal 
> combustion engine and the cetasika as the different parts, and very 
> logically too, I might add.  
The internal combustion engine is not at all mentioned in the 
Tipitaka. It is wholly a deviation from Tipitaka. It is not 
inconsistent with Tipitaka. 

>Anyway, I would like to tell you about 
a 
> new product recently marketed in Thailand, called 'gasohol', a 
mixture 
> of gasoline and alcohol, which made me think that if you fermented 
> your grape juice a little...
Wouldn't the engine then be breaking the precept against consuming 
intoxicants? That would be an akusala citta for the engine rupa. Now, 
THERE'S a deviation for you!

 
2890 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 9:15pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  In response to my:
> > We can 
> > draw either inside the lines or outside the lines.
> > We can use either 
> > the right colors or the wrong colors.
> > 

Sarah, writes:
> WE can?     Are you sure?

Oh dear, Sarah. I'm not sure what you are asking. Using everyday 
language in this thoroughly conventional discussion, of course WE can 
paint, and we do so all the time. The hard part is making sure we draw 
inside the lines using the right colors. We are not Buddhas, so 
sometimes we screw up, sometimes not.

 
2891 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Dan's view

 
  Amara writes:
> > Studying his 
> > teachings are more interesting to me more than
> > trying to read between 
> > the lines for other teachings similitude to
> > Buddhism, personally.  But 
> > we all have our individual accumulations, so
> > whatever helps one 
> > understand the Dhamma better,

Sarah responds:
> I agree with Amara here.  Although it may be
> interesting to study psychology, philosophy, science,
> or other religions and to detect any similarities,
> studying the Buddha's teachings themselves are a lot
> more useful. In these, we learn about anatta.

I think it is by and large more useful and interesting to study 
Buddhism too. However, cultivating an understanding of other 
traditions can help foster tolerance (khanti) and appreciation 
(mudita) toward people whose views differ from ours. Also, a study of 
other traditions can help us break the temptation to develop a rigid 
adherence to precise forms of words and descriptions. That rigidity 
can too easily lead to not being able to see the forest because we 
look too intently at the leaves and can result in intolerance and 
ill-will toward people who think differently.

 
2892 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Jonothan,

Thanks for the further clarification.  This is helpful.

mike


  Jonothan Abbott wrote: 


Mike

In an earlier post I said-
------------------------------------------ 
Knowledge of the difference between the 2 kinds of
rupa (conditioned by citta vs. conditioned by utu)
would be panna of the level of samatha bhavana, I
suppose.  The difference between these 2 kinds of rupa
is of no significance in the development of
satipatthana, since satipatthana does not require the
arising of awareness in relation to any particular
reality.
-------------------------------------------

In my later post to you on this subject believe I
overlooked a point you were making about the reference
to satipatthana not requiring the arising of awareness
in relation to any particular reality.  

What I was trying to say was that the object of
satipatthana does not have to be any particular
reality, in the sense that it can be any reality
whatsoever.  This is in contrast to samatha where, as
we have discussed, only certain objects (the 40
objects of samatha) are appropriate.

Sorry to have missed this in my last response.

Jonothan




 
2893 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 8:40pm
Subject: Re: Dan's view

 
  > I think it is by and large more useful and interesting to study 
> Buddhism too. However, cultivating an understanding of other 
> traditions can help foster tolerance (khanti) and appreciation 
> (mudita) toward people whose views differ from ours. Also, a study 
of 
> other traditions can help us break the temptation to develop a rigid 
> adherence to precise forms of words and descriptions. That rigidity 
> can too easily lead to not being able to see the forest because we 
> look too intently at the leaves and can result in intolerance and 
> ill-will toward people who think differently.


Dear Dan,

On the contrary, when we know the cause of things as taught in 
Buddhism, we would understand people more, and never underestimate 
anyone in any way.  As the Buddha taught, we have all been born all 
things immaginable, through the innumerable lifetimes we have lived.  
There is nothing we have not done at one time or another, so that we 
should always sympathize and try to help others: who knows that our 
help might not be just what was meant to happen to alleviate their 
suffering?  or their ignorance?  Even Devadatta, now in hell for 
trying to murder the Buddha, was predicted to be a paccega buddha one 
day in the distant future.  From hell to buddhahood, what could be 
impossible in comparison, in time? 

Buddhism, however, does not teach people to insist that others listen 
to their views.  Even the bhikkhus should not preach unless he is 
asked to, so that normally even though it is not wrong for a lay 
person to teach the dhamma, generally it should be to people who 
express interest.  Then there is nothing that could force others who 
are not interested to listen, much less understand, especially since 
the Dhamma is such an intricate matter.  But this does not keep 
Buddhists from understanding other religions, even if they do not 
believe in them.  Buddhism teaches mostly about one's own nature, but 
most human nature have the same basic behavior, so that if one 
understands oneself, one would know that all humans seek happiness 
and want to escape unhappiness.  

We are lucky to have the Buddha's teachings to guide us, and we 
should share that as we are able.  The rest depends on each 
individual's accumulations, which none but the Buddha could tell, but 
just in case they could understand, if anyone asks, we should try to 
help them, and gain the highest merit in dana along the way: dhamma 
dana.

Amara

 
2894 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 8:41pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  ---  "amara chay" wrote:
> Thank you for the clear explanation of your view of the Tipitaka, I 
> think I understand even better now.  From this perspective the 
> Tipitaka is so all encompassing that everything is included in its 
> comprehensive outline, since...

I don't recall mentioning anything about the scope of Tipitaka. In the 
discussion with Jonathon, I simply tried to explain what I meant when 
I used the word "deviation", viz. things that are not in the Tipitaka 
deviate from it. Here, I use the term more in the sense of "digress" 
and not at all in the sense of "contradict." 

Is the Tipitaka "all-encompassing"? I don't think the question is in 
any way relevant to the discussion.

 
2895 From: Dan Dalthorp  <> 
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Dan's view

 
  Dear Amara,
I agree wholeheartedly when you write: "when we know the cause of 
things as taught in Buddhism, we would understand people more, and 
never underestimate anyone in any way." However, for those of us who 
do not have a full experiential, understanding (bhanvanmayapanna) of 
Buddhadhamma and still know bounds to our understanding, it is 
sometimes helpful to explicitly cultivate tolerance and appreciation 
of other people (even Christians).

You wrote:
> Buddhism, however, does not teach people to insist that others 
listen 
> to their views.  

This is an important difference between Christianity and Buddhism that 
bears reflecting on. Jesus talked about "making disciples of all 
nations," about "making fishers of men", about "shouting the good news 
from the housetops", etc. [all paraphrased], whereas Buddhadhamma is 
offered as a gift. If someone doesn't want to listen to Dhamma, that's 
thier choice. This is one way in which Christianity seems 
impoverished: If the teachings are pure, how can they be offered as 
anything other than a gift? 

Are there any Christians out there that can help us out on this?

 
2896 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 10:04pm
Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  > I don't recall mentioning anything about the scope of Tipitaka. 
(.....)
> Is the Tipitaka "all-encompassing"? I don't think the question is in 
> any way relevant to the discussion.

Dear Dan,

I was referring to what you wrote in another message:

 In drawing a picture of the landscape of the mind, Tipitaka takes a 
black pen and draws the shape of the picture--like in a coloring book. 
The commentaries take color crayons and draw between the lines. That 
helps us see what it looks like, but to see the full picture in all 
its glory, we need to pick up the crayons ourselves. 

Which I (mis-?)interpreted as the Tipitaka being the out line of 
things, hence all encompassing.

Which I think in terms of nama and rupa, everything is encompassed.  
Wrong views are also described in the Tipitaka, as are right 
understanding.  So in a way everything is in there, including the 
study of realities, which is the main theme.

So I guess I misunderstood you after all!

Amara

 
2897 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 10:29pm
Subject: Re: Dan's view

 
  > However, for those of us who 
> do not have a full experiential, understanding (bhanvanmayapanna) of 
> Buddhadhamma and still know bounds to our understanding, it is 
> sometimes helpful to explicitly cultivate tolerance and appreciation 
> of other people (even Christians).


Dear Dan,

Even at the intellectual level of understanding the dhamma we could 
see that people have different accumulations and that even as about 
half your life is receiving vipaka (result of past kamma), the other 
half is performing kamma that will produce results in future lives, 
therefore anyone could become anything in time and with the right 
accumulations.  But in order to develop right accumulations we must 
also be able to tell right from wrong, therefore knowing whether 
others are right or wrong also.  Only then could we really appreciate 
the good qualities in anyone, Christians or others, or have 
tolerance, and better yet have metta for them, and even karuna if 
possible.  Buddhism never encourages enemity, not even to those who 
are non Buddhists, no onw is ever encouraged to 'kill the infidel' or 
burn witches or even have inquisitions of any kind, the only one who 
could change anyone's beleif is the person himself.  Buddhism's only 
weapon is right understanding, logical reasoning and the only thing 
one is taught to do away with is kilesa.  No holy wars or crusades 
possible!

Amara

 
2898 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 14, 2001 8:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Lee

I am interested to hear that you have studied Dhamma
in Chinese (Mandarin).  I have oftern wondered whether
many of the Theravadin texts been translated into
Chinese, or whether the available writings mostly by
present-day teachers.

---  wrote: > Hi Bruce and others,
> 
> First of all, though I have followed hundreds of
> achieves yet I still 
> cannot pick up terms like aramana, poramatha and so
> on. I must admit 
> that I use to learn dhamma in mandarin.(That is why
> my english is 
> weak too). But I will try and perhaps someone can
> correct me if I 
> misinterpret something and I can learn from here.

Some of us have been very slow to realise that these
terms are difficult even for those who are familiar
with the Pali words commonly in use elsewhere.  And a
simple definition is not enough to make their meaning
clear.  However, as others have found, the meaning
gradually becomes clearer over time.  So don't be
discouraged!


> > -- i've heard it mentioned several times on the
> list that samatha 
> can be
> > condition for satipathana to arise....can anyone
> explain why and 
> how?
> > 
> ==========================
> I'd say, with a "still mind", one can have a better
> focus for deeper 
> vipassana practice. Of course, you can insight with
> focus on all 
> dvaras if you have a high "still mind". 
> ==========================

This kind of approach is of course widely taught.  It
tends to appeal to our innate sense of what spiritual
development is all about.  However, is it the way as
taught by the Buddha?  The answer to that question
lies in a detailed study of the Tipitaka and
commentaries.  There are, for example, many, many
discourses in which no reference is made to any
particular connection between samatha and vipassana.

It seems to me that having the idea that a calm mind
means deeper understanding can be an obstacle to
progress.  It tends to distract us from the
possibility of paying attention to the dvaras
(doorways) at other times, and this cuts out the major
part of the day (like right now).  But the dvaras
themselves don't change according to the level of
calmness of the mind, or whether or not one has
practised samatha.  The possibility of studying or
reflecting on the dvaras is there all the time.  So as
long as we hold to the idea of a particular time,
place or situation as being advantageous to the
development of awareness, we will not be inclined to
pay attention to the doorways in the ordinary,
everyday situations that constitute the greatest part
of our lives.

Thanks for your contributions on this topic.

Jonothan


 
2899 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 0:06am
Subject: updated 'Buddhism Compared'

 
  Dear group,

Have added two of Dan's latest messages and their replies to Q&A6 in 
the Q&A section in <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, please take a look 
and tell us what you think.  Dan, as usual, if there are any changes 
you might like to make, please feel free to tell me, corrections are 
easily done in the website.  

Amara

 
2900 From:  
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 0:41am
Subject: Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha,

 
  Jonothan,

 
> Lee
> 
> I am interested to hear that you have studied Dhamma
> in Chinese (Mandarin).  I have oftern wondered whether
> many of the Theravadin texts been translated into
> Chinese, or whether the available writings mostly by
> present-day teachers.

There are translated Theravadin texts and writings of present-day teachers.
The VSM is one of the translated Theravadin texts. After following achieves in this egroup, I think, the understanding of the texts is different.

 
> > > -- i've heard it mentioned several times on the
> > list that samatha 
> > can be
> > > condition for satipathana to arise....can anyone
> > explain why and 
> > how?
> > > 
> > ==========================
> > I'd say, with a "still mind", one can have a better
> > focus for deeper 
> > vipassana practice. Of course, you can insight with
> > focus on all 
> > dvaras if you have a high "still mind". 
> > ==========================
> 
> This kind of approach is of course widely taught.  It
> tends to appeal to our innate sense of what spiritual
> development is all about.  However, is it the way as
> taught by the Buddha?  The answer to that question
> lies in a detailed study of the Tipitaka and
> commentaries.  There are, for example, many, many
> discourses in which no reference is made to any
> particular connection between samatha and vipassana.
> 
> It seems to me that having the idea that a calm mind
> means deeper understanding can be an obstacle to
> progress.  It tends to distract us from the
> possibility of paying attention to the dvaras
> (doorways) at other times, and this cuts out the major
> part of the day (like right now).  But the dvaras
> themselves don't change according to the level of
> calmness of the mind, or whether or not one has
> practised samatha.  The possibility of studying or
> reflecting on the dvaras is there all the time.  So as
> long as we hold to the idea of a particular time,
> place or situation as being advantageous to the
> development of awareness, we will not be inclined to
> pay attention to the doorways in the ordinary,
> everyday situations that constitute the greatest part
> of our lives.

I shall reserve my view point until I'd understand what samatha and vipassana are all about.

Thanks for sharing.


Lee


 
2902 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 8:31pm
Subject: October in India

 
  Dear all,

Khun Sujin is heading another pilgrimage to India for two weeks this 
October, (2001).  Details are not yet settled, as soon as we know of 
them we shall add them to the newsletter9, newsletter section, 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Anyone interested should please contact 
the foundation at the addresses in the newsletter page.  

Amara

 
2903 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 8:52pm
Subject: List Bulletin

 
  Dear Friends

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(List Moderators)



 
2904 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:41pm
Subject: Re: October in India

 
  > Khun Sujin is heading another pilgrimage to India for two weeks this 
> October, (2001).  Details are not yet settled, as soon as we know of 
> them we shall add them to the newsletter9, newsletter section, 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Anyone interested should please 
contact 
> the foundation at the addresses in the newsletter page.  


Dear friends,

The India trip newletter is number 10, sorry for the mix up.

Dear Moderators,

I think you should let up on this rules things a bit, no need to 
worry about the volume of the posts, there's practically no one left 
with all the limitation of subjects.  Some common consideration such 
as deleting excess messages should be nice for others, and 
information about how the list opperates is fine, otherwise I think 
you should let people judge for themselves.

Amara

 
2905 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:55pm
Subject: Re: October in India

 
  > Dear Moderators,
> 
> I think you should let up on this rules things a bit, no need to 
> worry about the volume of the posts, there's practically no one left 
> with all the limitation of subjects.  Some common consideration such 
> as deleting excess messages should be nice for others, and 
> information about how the list opperates is fine, otherwise I think 
> you should let people judge for themselves.



And on the subject of spelling, everyone is aware of the 
American/English set of dictionaries, such as for words like 
offense/offence.  We are not holding language classes and Pali or 
Sanskrit for example are no ones' mother tongue that I know of.  So I 
really think you should not ask for people to be academically correct 
om the list, people who are uncertain of how a word is spelt or used 
should be able to ask for help here and not have to pass a test each 
time they write something.  I for one would never remember all the 
vocabulary necessary for such high standards.

Amara

 
2906 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas

 
  Bruce

> but why does it *feel* like i'm spinning out so much
> more panatti when i'm
> sitting in front of the computer than when i'm
> sitting attempting samatha
> bhavana??

A good question.  We would all instinctively be
inclined to agree with this observation.  But the
problem is, our instincts are driven by the same
lobha, dosa and (especially) moha that drive the rest
of our lives.

Is there in fact a qualitative difference between the
citta (consciousness) at these 2 different times?  We
should not assume so.  Kilesa (defilements) come in
many different forms.  Some of the most insidious
forms masquerade as a kind of bhavana, and are
accompanied by extremely subtle forms of lobha
(attachment).  So the fact that there is quite a
contrast between the 2 situations does not mean that
one of them must be kusala.

But more importantly, as far as the development of
satipatthana goes, need we be concerned about this
difference anyway?  Even at the moments we are
‘spinning out’ a lot of pannati there are still
realities appearing that can be the object of
satipatthana.  There is, for example, the actual
thinking (that has as its object the pannati), as well
as the seeing and other sense-door experiences
occurring at (more or less) the same time.  Perhaps we
are not as clear about this as we should be.  That is
why it is useful to learn more about the theory of
satipatthana and to consider how the theoretical
understanding can be applied to the present moment.

Whether we have a sitting practice or not, we will to
continue to spin out lots of pannati.  If we think of
the pannati as an obstacle to progress, we are going
to find the development of awareness very difficult
indeed.

Jonothan


 
2907 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Mike

Thanks as usual for your thoughtful comments.


> > Yes.  But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at a
> > relatively superficial level.  It is not the panna
> > which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing
> and
> > at the same time has penetrated the true nature of
> > that reality to the degree that the characteristic
> > of
> > impermanence is known.
> 
> I guess what I had in mind here was, If 'we' have an
> affinity for the tilakkhana now, doesn't that
> suggest
> some previous 'accumulation'?

Yes, indeed it does.  But is it understanding that is
derived direct knowledge of realities?  Or is it
understanding mostly at an intellectual level, from
considering and reflecting on the teachings generally
and the tilakkhana (the characteristics of anicca,
dukkha and anatta) in particular?


>  If it's true that we
> don't carry 'stories' from one life to the next, but
> only paññaa?  Or is this just sankharuppadana (or
> something like that)?

But even though there is panna, panna of what level
and stage of development?


> > For those listening to the Buddha, developed panna
> > was
> > arising through the different doorways as he
> spoke. 
> > They had accumulated levels of panna in previous
> > lives, 
> 
> Have we not?  If not, why are we interested today?

Yes, our interest in this life is because of panna
accumulated in previous lives.  But this does not mean
we are ready for enlightenment, even if we were to
have the extreme good fortune of listening to the
Buddha himself.


> > and had the right conditions for those
> > accumulations to become manifest during the
> lifetime
> > of the Buddha. 
>   I wonder
> why some of us are attracted by the tilakkhana in
> this
> life, while most of us (even if we hear of it) are
> repulsed.

As you say, it must be because of accumulated panna. 
But there is still, for all of us, heaps of
accumulated wrong view also!


>  Maybe I'm just being a little
> superstitious
> here...

(Sorry, but I’m not with you on this one...)

Thanks for the opportunity to reflect.

Jonothan



 
2908 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:05am
Subject: List etiquette

 
  Dear Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> > Dear Moderators,
> > 
> > I think you should let up on this rules things a
> bit, no need to 
> > worry about the volume of the posts, there's
> practically no one left 
> > with all the limitation of subjects. 

Perhaps a little exaggeration here, don't you think?

 Some common
> consideration such 
> > as deleting excess messages should be nice for
> others, and 
> > information about how the list opperates is fine,
> otherwise I think 
> > you should let people judge for themselves.
> 
No one is worrying about the volume as far as I know.
As you mention, the guidelines are for consideration
of others and to keep posts relevant to dhamma
discussion. 
I'm sorry you object. The guidelines have not changed.

> 
> And on the subject of spelling, everyone is aware of
> the 
> American/English set of dictionaries, such as for
> words like 
> offense/offence.  We are not holding language
> classes and Pali or 
> Sanskrit for example are no ones' mother tongue that
> I know of.  So I 
> really think you should not ask for people to be
> academically correct 
> om the list, people who are uncertain of how a word
> is spelt or used 
> should be able to ask for help here and not have to
> pass a test each 
> time they write something.  I for one would never
> remember all the 
> vocabulary necessary for such high standards.

For your reference, we as moderators have never
mentioned corect spelling, use of vocabulary, or good
English. Our aim is to encourage everyone to write
about dhamma. I think you must be mixing moderator
bulletins with comments other members have made. We
all make plenty of mistakes (including me) and no one
should be unduly concerned about these either. We just
do our best out of consideration again.

Thankyou for your interest.

Sarah



 
 
2909 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:52am
Subject: Re: List etiquette

 
  > > And on the subject of spelling, everyone is aware of
> > the 
> > American/English set of dictionaries, such as for
> > words like 
> > offense/offence.  We are not holding language
> > classes and Pali or 
> > Sanskrit for example are no ones' mother tongue that
> > I know of.  So I 
> > really think you should not ask for people to be
> > academically correct 
> > om the list, people who are uncertain of how a word
> > is spelt or used 
> > should be able to ask for help here and not have to
> > pass a test each 
> > time they write something.  I for one would never
> > remember all the 
> > vocabulary necessary for such high standards.
> 
> For your reference, we as moderators have never
> mentioned corect spelling, use of vocabulary, or good
> English. Our aim is to encourage everyone to write
> about dhamma. I think you must be mixing moderator
> bulletins with comments other members have made. We
> all make plenty of mistakes (including me) and no one
> should be unduly concerned about these either. We just
> do our best out of consideration again.


Dear moderators,

Thank you for clarifying your position,

Amara

 


 
2911 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Robert,

I don't have much to add to this excellent (rather
old) post.  But you asked some (rhetorical, I think)
questions that I think deserve attention.

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> From the Mulapariyaya sutta (BPS BODHI)
> p40 AN UNINSTRUCTED WORLDLING  "Herein he needs to
> be taught
> because he posseses neither learning (agama) nor
> spiritual
> achievement (adhigama)...Because he has neglected
> to study,
> question and discriminate the aggegates (khandas),
> elements(dhatus) sense bases(ayatanas), truths, laws
> of
> conditionality and foundations of mindfulness
> etc...”

I take this to be true of everyone short of sotapatti.
  
> The khandas,
> dhatus and
> ayatanas are in us and around us. Yet do we really
> see them as
> they are? 

'We' can't, can we?  I don't mean to split hairs, but
isn't it true that only paññaa can do this, and (for
most of us) for such brief series of processes that we
may well be unaware of its having happened at all? 
And if so, are these 'mahákusala cittas' kamma that
'accumulates'?

> The type of mahakusala citta (wholesome
> citta) that is
> satipatthana can only arise after having heard the
> teachings of
> a Buddha (except for pacceka Buddhas). It seems that
> sati, of
> satipatthana, is something a little different from
> what we
> usually think of as awareness.

That seems clear.  Even the phrase 'what we usually
think of as awareness' pretty plainly suggests
paññati, doesn't it?  If I understood our earlier
discussions on the subject, paññati might be a
satipatthana (dhammanupassana?), but much more likely
not...?  
 
> I don't feel that I am against meditation. At night
> sometimes I
> am sitting in bed and naturally rest my eyes. At
> those times the
> rupas in the body and feelings associated with them
> naturally
> become prevalent. Sometimes the  body feels like a 
> mass of heat
> and vibration. It must (feel that way) because this
> is what it
> is. Is this awareness? If it is is it at the level
> of vipassana?

Probably mixed (alternating) processes, don't you
think?  The real danger would be, I think, in
mistaking paññati for vipassana, but also not safe to
assume that no moments of insight are arising and
subsiding. 

> What is the first level, nataparinna? The commentary
> to the
> mulapariyaya sutta says P57 “He fully understands
> the earth
> element thus “this is the internal earth element.
> This is its
> characteristic, this its function, this its
> manifestation, and
> proximate cause”. 
> 
> This first stage is not so easy. If we get this far
> it means
> that we have distinguished many realities and seen
> them as they
> are.  We see them as only nama and only rupa. Have
> we reached
> even this first stage yet? 

Well, no--but isn't 'I' just a 'story' anyway? 
Speaking for myself, 'my' lack of progress is not a
very kusala reflection.   

> Well, check yourself. Do
> you still
> think there are tables and chairs? 

Of course I do, when I think--but doesn't reflecting,
even at the level of paññati, that this is an
illusion, help to condition the arising of (even if
imperceptible) moments of sati? Or is this just
wishful thinking?

More later...

mike


 
2912 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:14am
Subject: Fw: TEST

 
  Sorry,
 
It is only a test
 
 Leonardo

 

 
2914 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:34am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > > The type of mahakusala citta (wholesome
> > citta) that is
> > satipatthana can only arise after having heard the
> > teachings of
> > a Buddha (except for pacceka Buddhas). It seems that
> > sati, of
> > satipatthana, is something a little different from
> > what we
> > usually think of as awareness.
> 
> That seems clear.  Even the phrase 'what we usually
> think of as awareness' pretty plainly suggests
> paññati, doesn't it?  If I understood our earlier
> discussions on the subject, paññati might be a
> satipatthana (dhammanupassana?), but much more likely
> not...?  


Dear Mike, 

I was just thinking of you!  I know you were writing Robert, but I 
hope you won't mind a few comments.  

Pannati can only be the object of the mind dvara, which is not 
pannati itself and therefore can be object of awareness, of 
satipatthana.  One could be aware of thinking at the moment of 
thinking, and therefore at the moment or after one could experience 
the characteristics of thinking which are completely different from 
those of an instant of seeing, even at this moment when there are 
both going on, plus hearing, touching, and innumerable bhavangas 
interposing.  


> > This first stage is not so easy. If we get this far
> > it means
> > that we have distinguished many realities and seen
> > them as they
> > are.  We see them as only nama and only rupa. Have
> > we reached
> > even this first stage yet? 
> 
> Well, no--but isn't 'I' just a 'story' anyway? 
> Speaking for myself, 'my' lack of progress is not a
> very kusala reflection.   


It certainly is not, especially since there are only citta and 
cetasika, this 'I' is just this attachment to the self.  We should 
have confidence in conditions, as long as we are accumulating the 
right ones, the results must come, which is why the Buddha exhorted 
us to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, not to think akusala 
thoughts which are 'bad' accumulations.  Why waste the precious time 
we could be studying the dhamma (realities) with? 


> > Well, check yourself. Do
> > you still
> > think there are tables and chairs? 
> 
> Of course I do, when I think--but doesn't reflecting,
> even at the level of paññati, that this is an
> illusion, help to condition the arising of (even if
> imperceptible) moments of sati? Or is this just
> wishful thinking?


This only you could answer yourself, but theoretically you're on the 
right track, for which I anumodana,

Amara

 
2915 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 2:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana meditation

 
  Mike

Just a quick comment on one of your points-

>               If I understood our earlier
> discussions on the subject, paññati might be a
> satipatthana (dhammanupassana?), but much more
> likely
> not...?  

Pannati is counted as one of the 'dhammarammana' ie.
objects of experience through the mind door.  The
other dhammarammana are all realities, as are the
objects experienced through all the other doorways.

This might be the earlier reference you had in mind, I
believe.

Jonothan


 
2916 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 2:32pm
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > >               If I understood our earlier
> > discussions on the subject, paññati might be a
> > satipatthana (dhammanupassana?), but much more
> > likely
> > not...?  
> 
> Pannati is counted as one of the 'dhammarammana' ie.
> objects of experience through the mind door.  The
> other dhammarammana are all realities, as are the
> objects experienced through all the other doorways.


Dear Mike,

Although pannati are dhammarammana, they cannot be objects of 
dhammanupassana since they do not have real characteristics that could 
be experienced as arising and falling away, which leads to realization 
of the tilakhana, according to Khun Sujin.  Only paramatthadhamma 
could be objects of satipatthana.

Amara

 
2917 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 9:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Khun Amara and Jon,

Thanks for the (dhammanupassana/dhammarammana)
corrections.  Seems I can't hear these points often
enough--as usual!

mike


 
2918 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Dear Friends

There has been quite a lot of discussion lately about
these terms.  Following a suggestion, I think by Mike,
I thought it might be useful to post some
authoritative textual extracts, both to look at now
and to have for future reference.

The following are from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha,
translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi and published by the BPS. 
(Numbers preceded by # are the numbers of sections in
the original text.  ‘Guide’ refers to the commentarial
writings on the original text.  The short headings are
mine.)

Ultimate realities are what the Abhidhamma is all
about-
#2:	 The things contained in the Abhidhamma are
fourfold from the standpoint of ultimate reality
(paramatthato):  consciousness (citta), mental factors
(cetasika), matter (rupa), and Nibbana.

Ultimate realities are distinguished from so-called
‘conventional’ realities-
#2 Guide:	 According to the Abhidhamma philosophy,
there are 2 kinds of realities—the conventional
(sammuti) and the ultimate (paramattha).

What are ‘conventional realities’?
#2 Guide: 	Conventional realities are the referents of
ordinary conceptual thought (pannatti) and
conventional modes of expression (vohaara).  They
include such entities as living beings, men, women,
animals, and the apparently stable persisting objects
that constitute our unanalyzed picture of the world.

How are conventional realities different from ultimate
realities?-
#2 Guide: 	The Abhidhamma philosophy maintains that
these notions do not possess ultimate validity, for
the objects which they signify [ie. the living beings,
men, women, animals etc] do not exist in their own
right as irreducible realities.  Their mode of being
is conceptual, not actual.  They are products of
mental construction (parikappanaa), not realities
existing by reason of their own nature.

What are ultimate realities?-
#2 Guide: 	Ultimate realities, in contrast, are things
that exist by reason of their own extrinsic nature
(sabhaava).  These are the dhammas:  the final,
irreducible components of existence, the ultimate
entities which result from a correctly performed
analysis of experience.  Hence the word ‘paramattha’
is applied to them, which is derived from ‘parama’ =
ultimate, highest, final, and ‘attha’ = reality,
thing.

I hope this is useful.  There is more, if there is
interest in this area.
Jonothan



 
2919 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Thanks, Jon, this is great.  I'm at work now but will
respond at length when time permits.

mike


 
2920 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:56am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > Although pannati are dhammarammana, they cannot be objects of 
> dhammanupassana since they do not have real characteristics that 
could 
> be experienced as arising and falling away, which leads to 
realization 
> of the tilakhana, according to Khun Sujin.  Only paramatthadhamma 
> could be objects of satipatthana.


Dear Mike,

According to the 'Summary' chapter on Vipassana, 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, satipatthana comprises:

 Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense 
and mind are categorized
as the 4 sati-patthana.  When sati arises to be mindful of the 
characteristics of distinct
realities as 

 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
kayanupassana-satipatthana. 

 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
vedananupassana-satipatthana. 

3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
cittanupassana-satipatthana. 

4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 

(end quote)


Dhammanupassana encompasses all dvara because the manodvara 
experiences all the arammana in sequence to the other dvara as well 
as through the manodvara proper.  

Amara

 
2921 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 18, 2001 6:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Excellent, Khun Amara, thanks.  Must remember this
resource, now that my vocabulary's BEGINNING to catch
up to it...!

mike


 
2922 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 4:58am
Subject: Foremost analyst

 
  .
hello all, and greetings, 

I have come across lists in the past of descriptions of various
individuals from the time of the Buddha in which each was 
identified as foremost or best in this or that. For example, 
Moggallana was foremost in powers. Or Sariputta was foremost
in wisdom. (I believe these two are correct.) These lists were 
in the Tipi.taka and more specifically, in the Suttapi.taka. 

Would anyone know exactly where such lists are given? In 
particular, could anyone direct me to where the Buddha is 
described as best in making distinctions? (references esp. 
to Tipi.taka, but also to atthakathâ or .tîkâ, incl. VmM and
VsM would be welcome.) 

Finally, what would the Pali of these terms be? For 'best', 
I thought it would be se.t.t.ho or some variation (or possibly 
pâmokkha), and for 'distinction-maker', something made up out 
of the root bhaj (or perhaps something more like vematta, 
pa.tisambhida, vivecana). 

But my memory is not clear about these. I did notice that
vibhajjavâdî is sometimes taken not as a description in
particular of the Buddha, but of Theravâda teachings overall. 

I did find in the Visuddhimagga-mahâ.tîkâ, the phrase
vibhajjavâdî mahârâjâ, King of the Distinction-makers,
or, Great King amongst the Analysts, etc. (in chap. 17, 
Sect. 581), referring to the Buddha (the sammâsambuddho), 
but that's a few degrees away from the Tipi.taka itself ....  

well, thank you for all help. 
Jinavamsa 
=========

 
2923 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 7:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Taking robes [again!]

 
  Lee

It was only when I was going through my uncleared
messages that I realised your point when you said -

> Just to be pondered:
> 
> 1. Are arahants referred as wise people? 
> 2. Why arahants, I would say, insist to enter the
> sangha order as 
> they have all done? 
> 3. What makes the monkhood so special that they, the
> arahants, have 
> no second thought of it?
> 4. We are encourage to follow the wise, are we?

If I may paraphrase, all arahants (wise people) become
monks.  So if we want to follow the wise, shouldn’t we
become monks also?

To think so would be to miss the point.  The question
we need to ask is, how do we ‘follow the wise’?  In
other words, how did the arahant become a wise person?
 Was it by becoming a monk?  Or was it by listening
to, considering and following the Buddha’s instruction
about understanding the realities appearing at the
present moment?

An arahant’s wisdom is the wisdom of the true
characteristics of the ultimate realities, the
paramattha dhammas, that we take for ourselves and the
world we live in

So we can ‘follow the wise’, right now, by reflecting
on the teachings and by considering how they apply to
the present moment.

The arahant’s wisdom is the wisdom that has eradicated
all the kilesa.  With no more kilesa, the arahant has
no affinity for the household life.  He becomes a
monk, if not one already.  But we should not see the
monk’s life as a sort of path to enlightenment. 
Rather, we should realise that the monk’s can be lived
properly and fully only by one who has developed
wisdom of the arahant.

It is easy to be awed by the idea of the arahant as
the ‘perfect monk’.  But that is the pinnacle, not the
path, much less the starting point!

Jonothan


 
 
2924 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 7:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Foremost analyst

 
  Hello Jinavamsa,

I will only answer some of your questions.

You wrote:

<< hello all, and greetings,

I have come across lists in the past of descriptions of various
individuals from the time of the Buddha in which each was
identified as foremost or best in this or that. For example,
Moggallana was foremost in powers. Or Sariputta was foremost
in wisdom. (I believe these two are correct.) These lists were
in the Tipi.taka and more specifically, in the Suttapi.taka.

Would anyone know exactly where such lists are given? In
particular, could anyone direct me to where the Buddha is
described as best in making distinctions? (references esp.
to Tipi.taka, but also to atthakathâ or .tîkâ, incl. VmM and
VsM would be welcome.) >>

Jim:
The list that I'm familiar with is the one in the Ekanipaata of the
Anguttaranikaaya (A i 23ff) where each of some 80 disciples of the Buddha
are noted for being foremost (agga) in a particular area eg. Sariputta for
great wisdom (mahaapa~n~naa), Mahaamoggallaana for those possessing
powers (iddhimanta), and so on.

<< Finally, what would the Pali of these terms be? For 'best',
I thought it would be se.t.t.ho or some variation (or possibly
pâmokkha), and for 'distinction-maker', something made up out
of the root bhaj (or perhaps something more like vematta,
pa.tisambhida, vivecana).

But my memory is not clear about these. I did notice that
vibhajjavâdî is sometimes taken not as a description in
particular of the Buddha, but of Theravâda teachings overall.

I did find in the Visuddhimagga-mahâ.tîkâ, the phrase
vibhajjavâdî mahârâjâ, King of the Distinction-makers,
or, Great King amongst the Analysts, etc. (in chap. 17,
Sect. 581), referring to the Buddha (the sammâsambuddho),
but that's a few degrees away from the Tipi.taka itself ....  >>

Jim:
At MN 99 (M ii 197) the Buddha refers to himself as a vibhajjavaada
(Vibhajjavaado kho aham ettha, naaham ettha eka.msavaado). See also AN X.94
(A v 190) where the Buddha is similarly called a vibhajjavaada by
Vajjiyamaahita, the housefather.

Just from reading your message I believe you are the same person I
corresponded with in the middle part of last year on d-l. I joined this list
late last October and this is the first time I have read a message from you
here. Welcome to the list if you are a new subscriber.

Best wishes,
Jim Anderson

 
2925 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:13am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  hello Jim, 
thank you for the excellent suggestions. 
Yes, I just learned about this group and subscribed this 
very week. 
We might well have talked (virtually) in the past. I did 
once subscribe to D-L I think, but that was several years 
ago. I'm not sure: was it Dhamma-L or Buddhist-L (the 
second sounds more familiar to me); in either case, I no 
longer have their address. Maybe I'll do a search and find
it again.
I knew I had gotten that idea from the Suttas, I just couldn't
find my way back! 
so; in appreciation,
Jinavamsa


 
> Jim:
> At MN 99 (M ii 197) the Buddha refers to himself as a vibhajjavaada
> (Vibhajjavaado kho aham ettha, naaham ettha eka.msavaado). See also 
AN X.94
> (A v 190) where the Buddha is similarly called a vibhajjavaada by
> Vajjiyamaahita, the housefather.
> 
> Just from reading your message I believe you are the same person I
> corresponded with in the middle part of last year on d-l. I joined 
this list
> late last October and this is the first time I have read a message 
from you
> here. Welcome to the list if you are a new subscriber.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim Anderson

 
2926 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 11:24am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > I have come across lists in the past of descriptions of various
> individuals from the time of the Buddha in which each was 
> identified as foremost or best in this or that. For example, 
> Moggallana was foremost in powers. Or Sariputta was foremost
> in wisdom. (I believe these two are correct.) These lists were 
> in the Tipi.taka and more specifically, in the Suttapi.taka. 
> 
> Would anyone know exactly where such lists are given? In 
> particular, could anyone direct me to where the Buddha is 
> described as best in making distinctions? (references esp. 
> to Tipi.taka, but also to atthakathâ or .tîkâ, incl. VmM and
> VsM would be welcome.) 
> 
> Finally, what would the Pali of these terms be? For 'best', 
> I thought it would be se.t.t.ho or some variation (or possibly 
> pâmokkha), and for 'distinction-maker', something made up out 
> of the root bhaj (or perhaps something more like vematta, 
> pa.tisambhida, vivecana). 


Hello and welcome, Jinavamsa!

Thank you for the interesting question and the reply from Jim, to 
which I would like to add a little thought.  The Buddha had 
accumulated parami to attain supremacy in all fields through 4 
assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa, since the day he was 
predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to become a Buddha himself.  His 
great disciples took only hundreds of thousand kappa only, in 
comparison, from the time of their individual predictions.  You can 
read about part of the Buddha's accumulation of conditions for his 
Buddhahood in the article, 'Viriya Parami' in the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.

Enjoy,

Amara

 
2927 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 11:59am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > Must remember this
> resource, now that my vocabulary's BEGINNING to catch
> up to it...!


Dear Mike,

My pleasure, so long as you know where some of the clearest 
explanations are.

Amara

 
2928 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 0:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Dear Jinavamsa,

You wrote:

>hello Jim,
>thank you for the excellent suggestions.
>Yes, I just learned about this group and subscribed this
>very week.
>We might well have talked (virtually) in the past. I did
>once subscribe to D-L I think, but that was several years
>ago. I'm not sure: was it Dhamma-L or Buddhist-L (the
>second sounds more familiar to me); in either case, I no
>longer have their address. Maybe I'll do a search and find
>it again.
>I knew I had gotten that idea from the Suttas, I just couldn't
>find my way back!
>so; in appreciation,
>Jinavamsa

By D-L, I meant dhamma-list. Also, under your other name Mitchell Ginsberg,
I have saved a few of your messages from D-L up into August 2000 before you
left to go on a trip to Israel.

I find it interesting that the Buddha would contrast vibhajjavaada with
eka.msavaada. I looked up eka.msavaada in the CPD which translates this as:
one whose speech is definite. Sounds rather doubtful to me. I've been
thinking that the contrast might be between pluralism and monism. Perhaps
the Buddha was saying he's a pluralist, not a monist.

If you are interested in a long list of synonyms of Pali words for best,
foremost, etc. (at least two dozens) check out the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa,
vv. 694-6.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2929 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 1:03pm
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  hi Jim, and all, 
I took eka.msa (Skt. ekâ.msa, eka + a.msa) to have the base 
image of one shoulder (as in a monk's robe that goes over
just one shoulder), and that relatedly, one who speaks 
that way is just giving what we would call a one-sided 
view of things. (a.msa in Skt. means not only shoulder but 
one corner of a quadrangle). So the contrast is more like
carefully looking over an issue (related to sammâ-, samyak-) 
vs. just getting one perspective or bias on it. well, that's 
how these questions strike me. But a scholar of these issues 
might say something else. 
thank you. Yes, I did get to Israel back last August, after 
a wonderful few days as well in Amsterdam. Just my son and I, 
on that trip. So I'll take your word for it, that it was 
dhamma-L last year! Glad to hear some of my messages seemed
worth saving..... 
Jinavamsa aka Jinava.msa .../Mitchell


---  "Jim Anderson"  wrote:
> Dear Jinavamsa,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >hello Jim,
> >thank you for the excellent suggestions.
> >Yes, I just learned about this group and subscribed this
> >very week.
> >We might well have talked (virtually) in the past. I did
> >once subscribe to D-L I think, but that was several years
> >ago. I'm not sure: was it Dhamma-L or Buddhist-L (the
> >second sounds more familiar to me); in either case, I no
> >longer have their address. Maybe I'll do a search and find
> >it again.
> >I knew I had gotten that idea from the Suttas, I just couldn't
> >find my way back!
> >so; in appreciation,
> >Jinavamsa
> 
> By D-L, I meant dhamma-list. Also, under your other name Mitchell 
Ginsberg,
> I have saved a few of your messages from D-L up into August 2000 
before you
> left to go on a trip to Israel.
> 
> I find it interesting that the Buddha would contrast vibhajjavaada 
with
> eka.msavaada. I looked up eka.msavaada in the CPD which translates 
this as:
> one whose speech is definite. Sounds rather doubtful to me. I've 
been
> thinking that the contrast might be between pluralism and monism. 
Perhaps
> the Buddha was saying he's a pluralist, not a monist.
> 
> If you are interested in a long list of synonyms of Pali words for 
best,
> foremost, etc. (at least two dozens) check out the 
Abhidhaanappadiipikaa,
> vv. 694-6.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.

 
2930 From: shin lin   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 8:28pm
Subject: Patigha arise when seeing the corpses

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends,
Today I have encountered something which really 
made me pondered and understood the teaching of 
the Lord Buddha better.
Today there was a gas explosion near my office, 
which killed 5 people. Unfortunately I was on my 
way to the Police Station and saw the dead corpses. 
At the first moment of seeing the death bodies, 
Dosa arise which enhance the thought of throwing 
up. It took a while for Sati to arise, that Death( Cuti 
Citta) can arise any time according to Akusula 
kamma and we never know when it will come, which 
is why, we should think of Morana Sati most of the 
time, after hearing the teaching. After this thought 
of Dhamma, it allowed me to think that we should 
really develop the right thinking and know the 
realities of Dhamma as much as possible and we 
should develop more Kusula Kamma whenever it is 
possible because everything is really Dhamma and 
it's Dukkha, Anicca, Anatta. After this thought of 
the teaching, I realized that I was still scared or dosa 
is still arising. Then I realized that I was too 
disgusted with the sight of the corpses. It was very 
ugly, especially seeing one corpse without the head 
because it was scattered everywhere during the 
explosion. Then Sati arised with the teaching that 
everything is Dukkha, impermant and Ugly. But due 
to Self, Tanha, Dhitti, we tend to cover everything 
to see Sukkha, permanent and Beautiful in Dhitti 20.
Once these thought of the teaching arise, 
everything becomes so clear. There was the sense 
of liberation and freedom of how luck I was, to have 
listened to the Dhamma. I didn't know this until 
today. I don't like to sound like a Christian but I 
have realized how much one has accumulated Self, 
like longing for living, sense desires and etc... It is 
not easy to see the truth when everything is 
covered up so beautifully and we tend to take it for 
granted of its real existence of dhamma that 
everything is only citta, cestika, rupa and it rises 
and fall away accordingly without anyone 
controlling it. Everything is really Anatta. 
May I take this opportunity to Anumodana 
everyone for listening to the Dhamma and taking 
the triple gem as your guidance.
Anumodana,
Shin

 
2931 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:32pm
Subject: Latest page

 
  Dear friends,

Today we uploaded a new page to the section 'A few Words', 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> with the explanation of 'papa and punna' 
taken from one of the dhamma discussions in Cambodia.  Comments will 
be appreciated,

Thanks in advance,

Amara

 
2932 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:42pm
Subject: Realities, concepts and dhammas - 2

 
  Dear Friends

Continuing a quick look at Ch I, section 2 from the
Abhidhammata Sangaha on realities and concepts:

‘Ultimate’ has a second meaning – the ultimate objects
of right knowledge-
Guide to #2	  Ultimate realities are not only the
ultimate existents, they are also the ultimate objects
of right knowledge.  As one extracts oil from sesame
seed, so one can extract the ultimate realities from
the conventional realities.  Concepts do not possess
ultimacy.  It is the objective actualities that lie
behind our conceptual constructs – the dhammas – that
form the ultimate realities of the Abhidhamma.

Ultimate realities are knowable only to wisdom-
Guide to #2	  Ultimate realities are so subtle and
profound that an ordinary person cannot see them.  His
mind is obscured by concepts.  Only by means of wise
attention to things (yoniso manasikara) can one see
beyond the concepts.  Thus ‘paramattha’ is described
as that which belongs to the domain of ultimate or
supreme knowledge.


So to summarise this post and the previous one-

There are 2 kinds of realities – conventional
(sammuti) and ultimate (paramattha).
It is the ultimate realities that the Abhidhamma is
concerned with.
Ordinary people like us see the world in terms of
conventional realities (eg people and things).
However, these are just concepts (pannatti) and
expressions (voharaa), products of mental construction
(parikappana).
Ultimate realities have their own intrinsic nature
(sahaava), they are the dhammas.
They are ultimate in 2 senses.
First, they cannot be reduced any further, and second,
they are things that can be known only by the highest
knowledge.


As to whether concepts are 'dhammas', the word dhamma
has many meanings.  When classifying by way of objects
of the 6 doorways, the objects of the mind-door are
called 'dhammaarammana' (translated as 'mental
objects'), and these include concepts.

Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Ch III
#16   Mental object (dhammarammana) is sixfold: 
Sensitive matter (pasaadarupa), subtle matter
(sukhumarupa), consciousness (citta), mental factors
(cetasika), Nibbana, and concepts.
Guide to #16   Concepts - the class of convential
realities, things which do not exist in the ulitmate
sense - also fall into the category of mental object.

I hope this helps to clarify some of the references to
realities and concepts in the posts on this list.

Jonothan


 
2933 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:40pm
Subject: Re: Patigha arise when seeing the corpses

 
  > Dear Dhamma Friends,
> Today I have encountered something which really 
> made me pondered and understood the teaching of 
> the Lord Buddha better.


Dear Shin,

I think you are luckier than most to have the teachings of the 
Buddha to remind you of the dhamma in such a situation, which for 
others must be full of akusala all throughout.  Maranasati does help 
one realize one needs to accumulate knowledge at all levels to 
transcend the dangers of samsara, doesn't it.  Anumodana for your 
studies as well,

Amara

 
2934 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patigha arise when seeing the corpses

 
  Shin

It must have been a very unpleasant experience. 
However, it seems to have also been a condition for
some very useful reflection on your part.  Anumodana
in that.

Jonothan


 
2935 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 11:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patigha arise when seeing the corpses

 
  Anumodana, Shin!

mike


 
2936 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 1:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Hi Jinavamsa,

You wrote:

<<hi Jim, and all,
I took eka.msa (Skt. ekâ.msa, eka + a.msa) to have the base
image of one shoulder (as in a monk's robe that goes over
just one shoulder), and that relatedly, one who speaks
that way is just giving what we would call a one-sided
view of things. (a.msa in Skt. means not only shoulder but
one corner of a quadrangle). So the contrast is more like
carefully looking over an issue (related to sammâ-, samyak-)
vs. just getting one perspective or bias on it. well, that's
how these questions strike me. But a scholar of these issues
might say something else.
thank you. Yes, I did get to Israel back last August, after
a wonderful few days as well in Amsterdam. Just my son and I,
on that trip. So I'll take your word for it, that it was
dhamma-L last year! Glad to hear some of my messages seemed
worth saving.....
Jinavamsa aka Jinava.msa .../Mitchell >>

Jim:
Your definition of eka.msavaada seems plausible to me. I tried to find a
commentarial definition without success. The word only shows up three times
in the Suttantapitaka (refs. quoted in a previous message) and not at all in
any of the commentaries. However, the word 'vibhajjavaadin' seems to be
well defined in the .tiikaa to the Samantapaasaadikaa (Sp-p.t i 148 CSCD). I
would have to study the .tiikaa comments in more detail to get a better
grasp of the term.

Yes, I remember you mentioning that you were going with your son and to
Amsterdam also. I hope you'll find this discussion list worthwhile and
beneficial to your studies. And I'm sure your participation will be much
appreciated by many of us here.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2937 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 6:52am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  hello Jim, 
thank you for your warm welcome. and thank you for this further 
reference. Is the Sp-t you mention on the 6th S. CD? I didn't see 
it listed under Vinaya, nor under Other giving Buddhaghosa VsM 
and Cmy. 
Anything else you find would also be of interest to me. 
Jinavamsa



---  "Jim Anderson"  wrote:
> Hi Jinavamsa,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> <<hi Jim, and all,
> I took eka.msa (Skt. ekâ.msa, eka + a.msa) to have the base
> image of one shoulder (as in a monk's robe that goes over
> just one shoulder), and that relatedly, one who speaks
> that way is just giving what we would call a one-sided
> view of things. (a.msa in Skt. means not only shoulder but
> one corner of a quadrangle). So the contrast is more like
> carefully looking over an issue (related to sammâ-, samyak-)
> vs. just getting one perspective or bias on it. well, that's
> how these questions strike me. But a scholar of these issues
> might say something else.
> thank you. Yes, I did get to Israel back last August, after
> a wonderful few days as well in Amsterdam. Just my son and I,
> on that trip. So I'll take your word for it, that it was
> dhamma-L last year! Glad to hear some of my messages seemed
> worth saving.....
> Jinavamsa aka Jinava.msa .../Mitchell >>
> 
> Jim:
> Your definition of eka.msavaada seems plausible to me. I tried to 
find a
> commentarial definition without success. The word only shows up 
three times
> in the Suttantapitaka (refs. quoted in a previous message) and not 
at all in
> any of the commentaries. However, the word 'vibhajjavaadin' seems
to 
be
> well defined in the .tiikaa to the Samantapaasaadikaa (Sp-p.t i 148 
CSCD). I
> would have to study the .tiikaa comments in more detail to get a 
better
> grasp of the term.
> 
> Yes, I remember you mentioning that you were going with your son
and 
to
> Amsterdam also. I hope you'll find this discussion list worthwhile 
and
> beneficial to your studies. And I'm sure your participation will be 
much
> appreciated by many of us here.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.

 
2938 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 1:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Foremost analyst

 
  Dear Jinavamsa,

Thanks for yr interesting (and difficult qus) and
welcome here.

Jim has already guided you well to Ang Nik 1 and is
helping with the pali terms which are beyond me. Your
post was, however, a condition for me to pull out a
book I bought over 20 yrs ago in Sri lanka called 'Pen
portraits Ninety Three Eminent Disciples of The
Buddha'. Unfortunately although it gives more detail
than Ang Nik, it doesn't help with the Pali and
doesn't give proper references.

I also find the Pali Dict of Proper names very helpful
for further details. It has plenty of references (inc
the Ang Nik one) for each disciple/arahat and for
which area they were preeminent in (from Vinaya as
well as Suttanta). I know you didn't ask for further
details, but if you have access to this Dictionary,
you may find it useful to follow the references.

Just to give one example: the first mentioned in the
list is Anna Kondanna.

I'll just quote a few notes from this dict of his
'pre-eminent' points w/refs:

'As he was the first among humans to realise the
dhamma the buddha praised him saying "annasi vata bho
Kondanno" twice; hence he came to be known as Annata
Kondanna." Vin,i.12; UdA.324,371; Mtuiii.333

He was the first to be ordained with the formula "ehi
bhikkhu" and the first to receive higher ordination. 
Later, at jetavana, amidst a large concourse of monks,
The Buddha declared him to be the best of those who
first comprehended the Dhamma. AA.i.84

He was also declared to be preeminent among disciples
of long-standing (rattannunam). A.i.23......'

and so on....(there's a lot of useful info, but I've
been economical w/the quotes).

I'm not sure if this is of any use at all. I'd be
interested to know if you have a particular project
you are working on and anything else you care to share
with us about this area of enquiry.

Best regards,
Sarah
 

--- Jinavamsa   wrote: > .
> hello all, and greetings, 
> 
> I have come across lists in the past of descriptions
> of various
> individuals from the time of the Buddha in which
> each was 
> identified as foremost or best in this or that. For
> example, 
> Moggallana was foremost in powers. Or Sariputta was
> foremost
> in wisdom. (I believe these two are correct.) These
> lists were 
> in the Tipi.taka and more specifically, in the
> Suttapi.taka. 
> 
> Would anyone know exactly where such lists are
> given? In 
> particular, could anyone direct me to where the
> Buddha is 
> described as best in making distinctions?
> (references esp. 
> to Tipi.taka, but also to atthakathâ or .tîkâ, incl.
> VmM and
> VsM would be welcome.) 
> 
> Finally, what would the Pali of these terms be? For
> 'best', 
> I thought it would be se.t.t.ho or some variation
> (or possibly 
> pâmokkha), and for 'distinction-maker', something
> made up out 
> of the root bhaj (or perhaps something more like
> vematta, 
> pa.tisambhida, vivecana). 
> 
> But my memory is not clear about these. I did notice
> that
> vibhajjavâdî is sometimes taken not as a description
> in
> particular of the Buddha, but of Theravâda teachings
> overall. 
> 
> I did find in the Visuddhimagga-mahâ.tîkâ, the
> phrase
> vibhajjavâdî mahârâjâ, King of the
> Distinction-makers,
> or, Great King amongst the Analysts, etc. (in chap.
> 17, 
> Sect. 581), referring to the Buddha (the
> sammâsambuddho), 
> but that's a few degrees away from the Tipi.taka
> itself ....  
> 
> well, thank you for all help. 
> Jinavamsa 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> 




 
 
2939 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 1:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Hello Jinavamsa,

>hello Jim,
>thank you for your warm welcome. and thank you for this further
>reference. Is the Sp-t you mention on the 6th S. CD? I didn't see
>it listed under Vinaya, nor under Other giving Buddhaghosa VsM
>and Cmy.
>Anything else you find would also be of interest to me.
>Jinavamsa

You gave the correct abbreviation (Sp-.t). My 'Sp-p.t' was a mistake. The
passage in question is found in Vol. I of the Saaratthadiipanii by Sariputta
in the Vinaya section. The reference I gave is to the volume found on the
6th S. CD (Myanmar i 148). I just checked the Mahaa.tiikaa (also on the CD)
to the Visuddhimagga and a very similar passage is found there also (Vol. ii
240).

The passage makes it clear that the 'vibhajja' found in 'vibhajjavaadii' is
a gerund (also in the PED). When you read the contexts given in the passage,
do you think that a translation: '(after) analysing or having analysed' for
'vibhajja' is an acceptable one? Or perhaps another rendering should be
considered?

There's a passage in the Samantapaasaadikaa, Vol. i 61 (PTS) that may be of
interest to you. N.A. Jayawickrama translates it as follows:

He [King Asoka] next summoned the remaining monks and asked, "What
teaching did the Perfectly Enlightened One expound ?"

"Great King, He was an exponent of the analytical doctrine
(Vibhajjavaada)." -- The Inception of the Discipline, p. 54

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2940 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 2:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patigha arise when seeing the corpses

 
  Dear Shin,

Thanks for sharing your unexpected experiences with
us. We never know what our vipaka has in store for us
or what our daily life will be, do we?

I'd heard about the explosion on the news and have to
say I'm glad you were not any closer!

As you have described so well, there are moments of
kusala, akusala, kusala, akusala following each other
all the time... I'm glad for any reminders about the
urgency of developing more understanding.

Best wishes,
Sarah 



 
2941 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 7:15pm
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > I find it interesting that the Buddha would contrast vibhajjavaada 
with
> eka.msavaada. I looked up eka.msavaada in the CPD which translates 
this as:
> one whose speech is definite. Sounds rather doubtful to me. I've 
been
> thinking that the contrast might be between pluralism and monism. 
Perhaps
> the Buddha was saying he's a pluralist, not a monist.


Dear Jim, Jinavamsa and friends,

I thought you might be interested in what one of our Pali experts said 
of the two terms:

eka.msavaada. means, pretty much as you say, one whose speech is 
definite, the dhamma is just as the Buddha says it is, it could not 
be otherwise, no contradictions or second or third words possible 
(i.e. lobha is what it is, it could never be dosa or moha).

vibhajjavaada means the ability to explain things from several angles 
and in detail: nama can be explained in contrast to rupa, or as 
comprising citta, cetasika and nibbana, or as components of the 
different ayatana, or as major types of citta and cetasika, etc. or 
from as many perspectives as is necessary for the person to 
understand, for example.

I just got back from our Saturday sessions at the foundation,

Amara

 
2942 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:23am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  .
hello Sarah and all, 

yes, I have the 2-vol. set you refer to. I have the 1974 
printing. I had trouble finding the entry, but found it 
as "Aññâta-Ko.n.dañña (v.l. Añña-Ko.n.d.añña) Thera". In
case those extended ASCii characters don't come through, 
that's A~n~naata-Ko.n.da~n~na etc. 

Your references have allowed me to get to AN.i.23 and a 
list of a number of the "highest" in this or that monks. 
Thank you so much. 

You ask about the context of my question. 

To keep it brief here, it was just a remembrance of the 
Buddha as honored for his ability to make important 
distinctions that inspired my question to the group. 

I wanted to cite that recognition in a chapter [of _The 
Inner Palace_, its present title] respecting the ability 
to make differentiations (or distinctions) in a book on 
the link between consciousness and spirituality (in other 
words, on psychospirituality). 

thank you for this specific link! 
with mettâ, 
jinavamsa
  



---  Sarah Procter Abbott 
 wrote:
> Dear Jinavamsa,
> 
> Thanks for yr interesting (and difficult qus) and
> welcome here.
> 
> Jim has already guided you well to Ang Nik 1 and is
> helping with the pali terms which are beyond me. Your
> post was, however, a condition for me to pull out a
> book I bought over 20 yrs ago in Sri lanka called 'Pen
> portraits Ninety Three Eminent Disciples of The
> Buddha'. Unfortunately although it gives more detail
> than Ang Nik, it doesn't help with the Pali and
> doesn't give proper references.
> 
> I also find the Pali Dict of Proper names very helpful
> for further details. It has plenty of references (inc
> the Ang Nik one) for each disciple/arahat and for
> which area they were preeminent in (from Vinaya as
> well as Suttanta). I know you didn't ask for further
> details, but if you have access to this Dictionary,
> you may find it useful to follow the references.
> 
> Just to give one example: the first mentioned in the
> list is Anna Kondanna.
> 
> I'll just quote a few notes from this dict of his
> 'pre-eminent' points w/refs:
> 
> 'As he was the first among humans to realise the
> dhamma the buddha praised him saying "annasi vata bho
> Kondanno" twice; hence he came to be known as Annata
> Kondanna." Vin,i.12; UdA.324,371; Mtuiii.333
> 
> He was the first to be ordained with the formula "ehi
> bhikkhu" and the first to receive higher ordination. 
> Later, at jetavana, amidst a large concourse of monks,
> The Buddha declared him to be the best of those who
> first comprehended the Dhamma. AA.i.84
> 
> He was also declared to be preeminent among disciples
> of long-standing (rattannunam). A.i.23......'
> 
> and so on....(there's a lot of useful info, but I've
> been economical w/the quotes).
> 
> I'm not sure if this is of any use at all. I'd be
> interested to know if you have a particular project
> you are working on and anything else you care to share
> with us about this area of enquiry.
> 
> Best regards,
> Sarah
>  

 
2943 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Dear Amara, Jinavamsa, and all

I wrote:
>> I find it interesting that the Buddha would contrast vibhajjavaada with
>> eka.msavaada. I looked up eka.msavaada in the CPD which translates
>> this as: one whose speech is definite. Sounds rather doubtful to me. I've
>> been thinking that the contrast might be between pluralism and monism.
>> Perhaps the Buddha was saying he's a pluralist, not a monist.

Amara responded:
>Dear Jim, Jinavamsa and friends,
>
>I thought you might be interested in what one of our Pali experts said
>of the two terms:
>
>eka.msavaada. means, pretty much as you say, one whose speech is
>definite, the dhamma is just as the Buddha says it is, it could not
>be otherwise, no contradictions or second or third words possible
>(i.e. lobha is what it is, it could never be dosa or moha).
>
>vibhajjavaada means the ability to explain things from several angles
>and in detail: nama can be explained in contrast to rupa, or as
>comprising citta, cetasika and nibbana, or as components of the
>different ayatana, or as major types of citta and cetasika, etc. or
>from as many perspectives as is necessary for the person to
>understand, for example.
>
>I just got back from our Saturday sessions at the foundation,
>
>Amara

Thank-you for passing on what the Pali experts said about the two terms
which helps put the matter in a better perspective. After further study, I
realize that my allusion to pluralism and monism is totally off-base and
should be disregarded. I think I have found the key to understanding what
the Buddha meant when he used the two terms in the Subhasutta (MN 99).
Know that the two terms are found in only three places in the Tipitaka --
twice in this sutta and once in AN X.94. To understand why the two terms are
used, one needs to read the Pa~nhavyaakara.nasutta (AN X.42) and then read
the commentarial explanation in the Mahaapadesa-kathaa at DA ii 567.

A question (pa~nho) is to be answered in one of the following ways:
1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no
2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically
3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a counter-question
4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside (not to be answered)
     eg. Is the world eternal?

Turning now to the Subhasutta:

... the brahman youth Subha, Todeyya's son, spoke thus to the Lord:
"Good Gotama, brahmans speak thus: 'A householder is accomplishing the
right path, dhamma, what is skilled; one who has gone forth is not
accomplishing the right path, dhamma, what is skilled.' What does the good
Gotama say to this?"

"On this point I, brahman youth, discriminate, on this point I do not speak
definitely. ..."
[Vibhajjavaado kho aham ettha, maa.nava, naaham ettha eka.msavaado.]
-- translated by I.B. Horner, p.386

In reading the Buddha's reply, I think that it fits no. 2 quite well -- the
analytical reply. I'm going to be on the lookout for examples of categorical
replies by the Buddha and would appreciate it if anyone could point out some
examples. I know there are examples of no. 3 & 4.

This sutta seems to be the main source of what vibhajjavaada & eka.msavaada
originally meant. From reading the two .tiikaas (Sp-.t & Vsm-mh.t) on the
term 'vibhajjavaadin' it appears that extra meanings have been added over
time.

Best wishe,
Jim A.

 
2944 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 11:17am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > I think I have found the key to understanding 
what
> the Buddha meant when he used the two terms in the Subhasutta (MN 
99).
> Know that the two terms are found in only three places in the 
Tipitaka --
> twice in this sutta and once in AN X.94. To understand why the two 
terms are
> used, one needs to read the Pa~nhavyaakara.nasutta (AN X.42) and 
then read
> the commentarial explanation in the Mahaapadesa-kathaa at DA ii 567.
> 
> A question (pa~nho) is to be answered in one of the following ways:
> 1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no
> 2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically
> 3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a counter-question
> 4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside (not to be 
answered)
>      eg. Is the world eternal?
> 
> Turning now to the Subhasutta:
> 
> ... the brahman youth Subha, Todeyya's son, spoke thus to the Lord:
> "Good Gotama, brahmans speak thus: 'A householder is accomplishing 
the
> right path, dhamma, what is skilled; one who has gone forth is not
> accomplishing the right path, dhamma, what is skilled.' What does 
the good
> Gotama say to this?"
> 
> "On this point I, brahman youth, discriminate, on this point I do 
not speak
> definitely. ..."
> [Vibhajjavaado kho aham ettha, maa.nava, naaham ettha eka.msavaado.]
> -- translated by I.B. Horner, p.386
> 
> In reading the Buddha's reply, I think that it fits no. 2 quite well 
-- the
> analytical reply. I'm going to be on the lookout for examples of 
categorical
> replies by the Buddha and would appreciate it if anyone could point 
out some
> examples. I know there are examples of no. 3 & 4.
> 
> This sutta seems to be the main source of what vibhajjavaada & 
eka.msavaada
> originally meant. From reading the two .tiikaas (Sp-.t & Vsm-mh.t) 
on the
> term 'vibhajjavaadin' it appears that extra meanings have been added 
over
> time.



Dear Jim,

Thank you for the clear explanations, I have asked someone at the 
foundation to find the corresponding passages for further study at our 
next sessions along with your reasonings.  This has been most 
interesting, and thanks to Jinavamsa for his questions,

Amara

 
2945 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 6:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Hello jinavamsa & friends  

--- Jinavamsa   wrote: > .
> hello Sarah and all, 
> 
> yes, I have the 2-vol. set you refer to. I have the
> 1974 
> printing. I had trouble finding the entry, but found
> it 
> as "Aññâta-Ko.n.dañña (v.l. Añña-Ko.n.d.añña)
> Thera". In
> case those extended ASCii characters don't come
> through, 
> that's A~n~naata-Ko.n.da~n~na etc. 

Sorry about the confusion, I wrote it as Anna Kondanna
as written as first on Jim's Ang Nik list w'out the
Pali diacritic marks...let me try: A~n~na Konda~n~na
as written in my Eng. transl. (PTS)

I also had the 2 set 1974 edition of Dict of PPN, but
one of the volumes got really mouldy and rotten (too
many yrs in the tropics) and I had to throw it out. I
planned to just replace this, but now there is a 3 set
1997 edition, so recently we took the plunge (costly)
& bought it. As a result we have the 1974 vol2 (N-H)
in gd condition looking for a home if anyone wants it
(free of course).

I couldn't compare the entry for A~n~nata-Ko.n.da~n~na
as I no longer I have my old 1st vol, but I compared
the entries in both editions for Sariputta (10 pp) and
they are identical, so no need to get the new ones!
The 3 vols is just for convenience.
> 
> Your references have allowed me to get to AN.i.23
> and a 
> list of a number of the "highest" in this or that
> monks. 
> Thank you so much.

glad to be of a little help anyway! 
> 
> You ask about the context of my question. 
> 
> To keep it brief here, it was just a remembrance of
> the 
> Buddha as honored for his ability to make important 
> distinctions that inspired my question to the group.
> 
> 
> I wanted to cite that recognition in a chapter [of
> _The 
> Inner Palace_, its present title] respecting the
> ability 
> to make differentiations (or distinctions) in a book
> on 
> the link between consciousness and spirituality (in
> other 
> words, on psychospirituality).

Thanks for this info and sounds interesting. hope we
hear more from you here!

Sarah

P.S. also looking for a home are the following after
some 'restructuring' in our tiny computer rm/dh.
library:

Childers Pali Dict
Abhidhammattha-Sangaha by Aung (PTS) gd cond
Abhidhamattha -Sangaha by Narada (BPS)
Visuddhimagga (1964ed)
Bud Dict by Nyanatiloka
Majjhima Nikaya - 4 vols trans by miss Horner (PTS) gd
cond
The Way of mindfulness, Satipatthana Sutta w/ Comm by
Soma Thera
Discourse on Fruits of Recluseship- Samannaphala Sutta
& Comm by B.Bodhi new
2nd vol (of 2) of Pali Dict of Proper Names 

if anyone is interested in any of these (free), pls
send a note to me OFF-LIST...first come, we'll happily
pay shipping costs. 




 
2946 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: New chapters

 
  Dear all,

Nina's 'Abhidhamma' chs 8, 9, 10 and 11 just up, intermediate 
section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.

Enjoy,

Amara

 
2947 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Mon Jan 22, 2001 1:06pm
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  hello Amara and all, 

You sent in this explanation, which is just what I was looking 
for: the focus on being able to explain things from several 
angles and in detail, as your Pali expert put it. Thanks so much. 

Were there some prime citations of where the term was used in 
just that sense that were also mentioned? What is the foundation 
you mention? 

and you are quite welcome for my questions. 
Jinavamsa

> I thought you might be interested in what one of our Pali experts 
said 
> of the two terms:
> 
> eka.msavaada. means, pretty much as you say, one whose speech is 
> definite, the dhamma is just as the Buddha says it is, it could not 
> be otherwise, no contradictions or second or third words possible 
> (i.e. lobha is what it is, it could never be dosa or moha).
> 
> vibhajjavaada means the ability to explain things from several 
angles 
> and in detail: nama can be explained in contrast to rupa, or as 
> comprising citta, cetasika and nibbana, or as components of the 
> different ayatana, or as major types of citta and cetasika, etc. or 
> from as many perspectives as is necessary for the person to 
> understand, for example.
> 
> I just got back from our Saturday sessions at the foundation,
> 
> Amara

 
2948 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 22, 2001 3:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Dear Jim, Jinavamsa and Amara,

O.K. you've got me a little bit 'hooked' here, but at
least I'm getting to use those dictionaries...! (Mike-
vipassana next, I promise!)

First from Questions, Ang Nik ii,46 (PTS transl) just
putting Jim's 4 responses to qus into verse:

'Monks, there are these four ways of answering a
question.  What four?

There is the question which requires a categorical
reply; that which requires a counter-question; that
which requires to be waived: and there is the question
which requires a discriminating reply. These are the
four.

 The downright answer first (eka.msa), then qualified 
 (vacanapara.m);
 The third he'll counter, set the fourth aside.
 "Skilled in the questions four" they call a monk
 Who knows to answer fitly thus and thus.
 Hard to o'ercome, to vanquish hard, profound,
 Invincible is such an one, and skilled
 To see the meaning, be it true or false;
 Wise to reject the false, he grasps the true.
 "Sage in the grasp of truth" (atthabhisamaya) that   
 
 wise one's called.'

Next is my 'prize' and Jim, I don't mind admitting to
being a little pleased w/myself here (lots of akusalsa
cittas popping up even now!!).

You asked for an example of the categorical
(eka.msavayaakara) type response. I'm looking at the
Abhayarajakumara Sutta (To Prince Abhaya) in Maj
Nik,i,393 no58, transl by B.Bodhi.

In short, Prince Abhaya is encouraged by Nigantha
Nataputto to refute the Buddha's teachings:

' "Come, prince, go to the recluse Gotama and say:
'Venerable sir, would the Tathagata utter speech that
would be unwelcome and disagreeable to others?' " '

If he answers yes, the prince is to point out that
there's no difference between him and ordinary people.
If he answers no, the prince is to ask why he has said
the following:
' "Devadatta is destined for the states of
deprivation, Devadatta is destined for hell...." When
the recluse Gotama is posed this two-horned question
by you, he will not be able eitherto gulp it down or
to throw it up......'

The prince visits the Buddha:

' "Venerable sir, would a Tathagata utter such speech
as would be unwelcome and disagreeable to others?"
There is no one-sided (eka.msa, I think) answer to
that, prince."
"Then, venerable sir, the Nganthas have lost in
this.".......'

Although the Buddha does not give the categorical,
yes-no answer, it explains what these would have been.

You also encouraged me to read the Subha Sutta in
which the Buddha also refuses to give a yes-no answer.
Actually there are some interesting passages in this
sutta and I'm just quoting  another one which may be
of relevance to some other discussions others have had
on the list as well. Pls excuse the little deviation
from the topic, but others may find it interesting:

' "Here, student, I am one who speaks after making an
analysis (vibhajjavado kho aham ettha). I do not speak
one-sidedly. I do not praise the wrong way of practice
on the part either of a househholder or one one forth;
 for whether it be a householder or one gone forth,
one who has entered on the wrong way of practice, by
reason of his wrong way of practice, is not
accomplishing the true way, the dhamma that is
wholesome.  I praise the right way of practice on the
part either of a householder or one gone forth;  for
whether it be a householder or one gone forth, one who
has entered on the right way of practice, by reason of
his right way of practice, is accomplishing the true
way, the Dhamma that is wholesome". '

I'm running out of steam and apologies for already
having got too wordy or for any confusions with my
Pali spelling or quotation marks!

Best wishes,
Sarah


--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear
Amara, Jinavamsa, and all

 I think I have found the key
> to understanding what
> the Buddha meant when he used the two terms in the
> Subhasutta (MN 99).
> Know that the two terms are found in only three
> places in the Tipitaka --
> twice in this sutta and once in AN X.94. To
> understand why the two terms are
> used, one needs to read the Pa~nhavyaakara.nasutta
> (AN X.42) and then read
> the commentarial explanation in the
> Mahaapadesa-kathaa at DA ii 567.
> 
> A question (pa~nho) is to be answered in one of the
> following ways:
> 1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no
> 2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically
> 3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a
> counter-question
> 4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside
> (not to be answered)
>      eg. Is the world eternal?
> 
> Turning now to the Subhasutta:
> 
> ... the brahman youth Subha, Todeyya's son, spoke
> thus to the Lord:
> "Good Gotama, brahmans speak thus: 'A householder is
> accomplishing the
> right path, dhamma, what is skilled; one who has
> gone forth is not
> accomplishing the right path, dhamma, what is
> skilled.' What does the good
> Gotama say to this?"


> 
> "On this point I, brahman youth, discriminate, on
> this point I do not speak
> definitely. ..."
> [Vibhajjavaado kho aham ettha, maa.nava, naaham
> ettha eka.msavaado.]
> -- translated by I.B. Horner, p.386
> 
> In reading the Buddha's reply, I think that it fits
> no. 2 quite well -- the
> analytical reply. I'm going to be on the lookout for
> examples of categorical
> replies by the Buddha and would appreciate it if
> anyone could point out some
> examples. I know there are examples of no. 3 & 4.
> 
> This sutta seems to be the main source of what
> vibhajjavaada & eka.msavaada
> originally meant. From reading the two .tiikaas
> (Sp-.t & Vsm-mh.t) on the
> term 'vibhajjavaadin' it appears that extra meanings
> have been added over
> time.
> 
> Best wishe,
> Jim A.
> 



 
2949 From:  
Date: Mon Jan 22, 2001 11:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Patigha arise when seeing the corpses

 
  Dear shin,

thanks very much for this,..

rgds.

 
2950 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:17pm
Subject: vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Mike,

You asked us to add any comments to your comments to a
friend (below). I hope you won't mind if I let others
enjoy your discussion on list and have a chance to add
to it! I'm also keeping an eye on the clock as my
students will be arriving shortly, so I won't start
pulling out the texts this time!

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> 
> Understood.  However, the Buddha did often instruct
> monks to 'arouse energy'.  I'm growing more and more
> interesed in this kind of exhortation and its
> relevance to our list discussions of paññati etc.  I
> mean to start a new thread on this topic soon

Looks like I'm helping with that thread! I think we've
touched on this area before but it's very useful to
keep coming back to it. When someone talks about
arousing energy it depends on the understanding of the
speaker what is meant. Of course, the Buddha had no
misunderstanding of any self and so in no sense did he
mean that any self should do anything. Viriya cetasika
is annatta, just like all other realities. When the
Buddha says this, I understand he means, 'don't waste
time by not develolping understanding of realities
now'. Viriya cetasika, as you know, can be wholesome
or
unwholesome. When panna arises, kusala viriya arises
automatically without any trying or wrong view of
self. It has nothing to do with our conventional idea
of making an effort or being more energetic. 


> Not only that, but sloth, torpor and doubt are
> potential objects of sati-paññaa (same thing you're
> saying, probably), so really preferable to ordinary
> paññati even though unpleasant.  This ties into the
> new thread idea too, and is I think a kind of
> fine-tuned way of 'looking at the dosa until it goes
> away'

Yes, any realities can be the objects of sati and
panna. Even while thinking of pannati, they can arise
in between and know the thinking as another
conditioned reality. Any wishing to have less of one
reality or to have fewer pannati is merely lobha with
thinking... No kusala viriya at those moments!
> 
> No.  But arousing viriya can be a good thing--even,
> I
> think, with the attendant delusion that 'I am
> arousing
> it'.  My hypothesis is that we have to learn how to
> work--warily--with this 'atta' delusion at least
> until
> sotapatti. 

The right practice has to start right from the very
beginning. It's not a matter of arousing viriya with a
view of self and then it turning into something more
wholesome. From the beginning (always now!) panna can
begin to understand realities as not self and begin to
know the arousing of viriya with a view of self as
being wrong practice. Akusala (unwholesome) viriya or
thinking only leads to more of the same. Sorry if I'm
sounding a little too direct...

When we feel tired and just want to laze around with a
novel (as I sometimes do), there can be viriya at
those moments too..anytime, any place!  

> 
> That brings up another interesting point.  Though
> you
> may be right, nature isn't always our friend, is it?
> 
> This is another big hurdle for western hippie-dippie
> mystics (like myself)--'if it's natural, it feels
> good, and if it feels good, do it!' Unfortunately,
> all
> the nivaranas are perfectly natural too... The best
> thing the current lull in activity has done for me
> has
> been to emphasize the extent to which I've become
> dependent on communication with the group (not to
> mention my computer, which is making some very
> alarming noises this morning) for the arousing of
> various paramis.  Now, I know these may well be
> vangchakas and not paramis, but I still think this
> effort is good--separating the wheat from the chaff
> is
> a further issue, I think?

Well, you may get a bit of ribbing about being a
western hippie-dippie mystic....
As you say, what feels good and natural cannot be the
judge. Wrong view is very natural! I'm also finding
the group to be invaluable in terms of conditioning
wise refelection and a little understanding and also a
lot of lobha! But we don't need to be afraid of our
kilesa. They are there anyway, and it's better to be
honest and get to know them. Sometimes they seem more
apparent to me while I'm studying dhamma (like when I
was writing my last post and was quite excited). This
is quite natural too. 

When I'm teaching I often don't
see the kilesa, but what about all the moha at those
times! As Robert has stressed so often, seeing the
danger of wrong view of self is so essential. The more
we understand realities as anatta, the less we mind
about what is conditioned at any given moment.

By separating the wheat from the chaff, I take it you
mean understanding the moments of kusala and akusala.
More than that, we need to develop understanding of
any realities which appear- realities through 6
doorways. I think we all help give each other great
reminders about this and the support of good friends
can make a big difference as we've all agreed.
> 
.  It all depends
> on
> your emphasis and your intended audience.  Reminds
> me
> a little of Ajahn Chah saying that his instructions
> to
> his monks often seemed contradictory (I have a vague
> idea he borrowed this simile from the canon):  He
> said
> it was if he were trying to keep everyone in the
> middle of the road, so, if someone was wandering off
> to the left, he'd yell, "Go right, go right!", and
> if
> someone was wandering off to the right, he'd yell,
> "Go
> left, go left!"  You could see this kind of thing
> (and
> the resultant confusion) regularly in the monastery
> (though he was (mentally) gone by the time I got
> there)...

I think this is a very helpful analogy. To some it is
useful to say 'be more diligent' or 'arouse energy'.
To others it may be more useful to say 'don't think
there is any self to be diligent or energetic,
understand seeing as not self'....To some we may say
'read the Tipitaka', while to others we may say ' just
consider what you've read'....only the Buddha knew
exactly what to say to whom and still his words
weren't always popular!

Mike, I've rather rushed through...pls pick me up on
anything that isn't clear or doesn't seem correct and
pls add any other parts from your discussion which I
may have passed over. Your comments always encourage
us to consider more.

Many thanks,
Sarah 

p.s. just made it w/ 5 mins to go... 


_______________________________________________________


 
2951 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 0:05am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > Were there some prime citations of where the term was used in 
> just that sense that were also mentioned? What is the foundation 
> you mention? 


Dear Jinavamsa, and friends,

As you have seen, Jim and Sarah gave some references, and one of the 
experts at the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation here in Bangkok 
said there are several references in the Tipitaka.  But as the Thai 
Tipitaka includes the Commentaries in its volumes, Jim is probably 
more precise in his references, and the other mentions are more likely 
to be found in the Commentaries.  

Amara

 
2952 From:  
Date: Mon Jan 22, 2001 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 270(Dear Khun Shin)

 
  Dear Shin
Thank you so much for sharing the story with us.
Now we can appreciated even more of Buddha teaching.
In our daily life, there are vipaka that happening to us all
the time, some are miners some are severe..
as long as we know it's our vipaka.
and there is nothing we can do (except study and accumulate more kusala 
jitta) 
may be we can reduce dosa  jitta a bit?
any feed back from someone?
anumodana,
O

 
2953 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 7:51am
Subject: California group

 
  Dear O,

I was just thinking about you and the others in
California the other day. I so enjoyed our discussions
in Cambodia together. Pls let us know (& Jaran too)
what you found most valuable from your stay in
Thailand and Cambodia this time and how your
discussion group is going in the Bay. If you can
encourage Jack and Oi to also post the occasional note
here, that would also be great.

Jaran, thanks also for your help editing the English
tapes which I'm about to start listening to.

(If anyone else wants this set of 7 tapes made when
we, Nina VanG and the California group were in Bkk and
Cambodia w/ k.Sujin, just send an email to the add we
gave out before at the Foundation. If you can't find
it, let us know and we'll re-post it.)

Best wishes,

Sarah

---  wrote: > Dear Shin
> Thank you so much for sharing the story with us.
> Now we can appreciated even more of Buddha teaching.
> In our daily life, there are vipaka that happening
> to us all
> the time, some are miners some are severe..
> as long as we know it's our vipaka.
> and there is nothing we can do (except study and
> accumulate more kusala 
> jitta) 
> may be we can reduce dosa  jitta a bit?
> any feed back from someone?
> anumodana,
> O
> 
> 
> 



 
 
2954 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 8:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thank-you for taking the time to type out these passages from the Suttas.
Please read my comments below.

>Dear Jim, Jinavamsa and Amara,
>
>O.K. you've got me a little bit 'hooked' here, but at
>least I'm getting to use those dictionaries...! (Mike-
>vipassana next, I promise!)
>
>First from Questions, Ang Nik ii,46 (PTS transl) just
>putting Jim's 4 responses to qus into verse:
>
>'Monks, there are these four ways of answering a
>question.  What four?
>
>There is the question which requires a categorical
>reply; that which requires a counter-question; that
>which requires to be waived: and there is the question
>which requires a discriminating reply. These are the
>four.
>
> The downright answer first (eka.msa), then qualified
> (vacanapara.m);
> The third he'll counter, set the fourth aside.
> "Skilled in the questions four" they call a monk
> Who knows to answer fitly thus and thus.
> Hard to o'ercome, to vanquish hard, profound,
> Invincible is such an one, and skilled
> To see the meaning, be it true or false;
> Wise to reject the false, he grasps the true.
> "Sage in the grasp of truth" (atthabhisamaya) that
> wise one's called.'

One point to note: "there is the question which requires a discriminating
reply" in the prose part may be in the wrong place at the end in the PTS
text version. In my two Burmese versions, the phrase comes in the second
place immediately after "categorical reply" and this is the order followed
in the verse part too. The Pali for the first line of verse is:
"eka.msavacana.m eka.m vibhajjavacanaapara.m".

>Next is my 'prize' and Jim, I don't mind admitting to
>being a little pleased w/myself here (lots of akusalsa
>cittas popping up even now!!).
>
>You asked for an example of the categorical
>(eka.msavayaakara) type response. I'm looking at the
>Abhayarajakumara Sutta (To Prince Abhaya) in Maj
>Nik,i,393 no58, transl by B.Bodhi.
>
>In short, Prince Abhaya is encouraged by Nigantha
>Nataputto to refute the Buddha's teachings:
>
>' "Come, prince, go to the recluse Gotama and say:
>'Venerable sir, would the Tathagata utter speech that
>would be unwelcome and disagreeable to others?' " '
>
>If he answers yes, the prince is to point out that
>there's no difference between him and ordinary people.
>If he answers no, the prince is to ask why he has said
>the following:
>' "Devadatta is destined for the states of
>deprivation, Devadatta is destined for hell...." When
>the recluse Gotama is posed this two-horned question
>by you, he will not be able eitherto gulp it down or
>to throw it up......'
>
>The prince visits the Buddha:
>
>' "Venerable sir, would a Tathagata utter such speech
>as would be unwelcome and disagreeable to others?"
>There is no one-sided (eka.msa, I think) answer to
>that, prince."
>"Then, venerable sir, the Nganthas have lost in
>this.".......'

The Pali for 'There is no one-sided (eka.msa, I think) answer to that,
prince.' is 'Na kho'ttha, raajakumaara, eka.msenaa ti'. The reference to the
'two-horned question' (ubhato-ko.tiko pa~nho) is quite interesting.

>Although the Buddha does not give the categorical,
>yes-no answer, it explains what these would have been.

I think I see a similarity in the way the Buddha handled the questions in
this sutta and the Subha sutta in that he is not drawn into giving a
categorical reply, but instead goes on to give an analytical reply. In the
case of Prince Abhaya, he gives an analysis of the Tathagata's speech and in
the case of Subha, he gives the analysis as you have typed out below.

>You also encouraged me to read the Subha Sutta in
>which the Buddha also refuses to give a yes-no answer.
>Actually there are some interesting passages in this
>sutta and I'm just quoting  another one which may be
>of relevance to some other discussions others have had
>on the list as well. Pls excuse the little deviation
>from the topic, but others may find it interesting:
>
>' "Here, student, I am one who speaks after making an
>analysis (vibhajjavado kho aham ettha). I do not speak
>one-sidedly. I do not praise the wrong way of practice
>on the part either of a househholder or one one forth;
> for whether it be a householder or one gone forth,
>one who has entered on the wrong way of practice, by
>reason of his wrong way of practice, is not
>accomplishing the true way, the dhamma that is
>wholesome.  I praise the right way of practice on the
>part either of a householder or one gone forth;  for
>whether it be a householder or one gone forth, one who
>has entered on the right way of practice, by reason of
>his right way of practice, is accomplishing the true
>way, the Dhamma that is wholesome". '

I had typed only the first line from Horner's translation and appreciate
your additional lines from Bodhi's translation. His translation of
'vibhajjavaada' as 'one who speaks after making an
analysis' is the best translation of the word I've seen so far. I don't have
a copy of this new translation of MN. Is this really BB's translation or is
it ~Naa.namoli's?

>I'm running out of steam and apologies for already
>having got too wordy or for any confusions with my
>Pali spelling or quotation marks!

No need to apologize for your well-intended effort! I have been thinking
quite a bit about the four types of questions given in AN IV.42 and this
has inspired me to look more seriously at the types of questions and answers
in the Tipitaka and how to determine the type. I was curious enough to look
in 'A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language' by Quirk et al for any
classification of questions from a modern Western perspective. It divides
questions into the following three major classes (p.806):
1. YES-NO questions
2. WH- questions
3. ALTERNATIVE questions (multiple choice questions)

It is easy to fit no. 1 in with the first of the 4 Buddhist types of
questions but I'm unsure about nos.2 & 3 which are also abundant in the
Tipitaka. I think that if you ask: 'What time is it?' I think this would be
a Buddhist type 1 (I'm inclined to think this type includes more than just
the yes-no type), but if you ask:'Which dhammas are wholesome?' I'm sure
this would be a Buddhist type 2 question requiring an analytical answer.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2955 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 9:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Dear Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> > > Yes.  But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at
> a
> > > relatively superficial level.  It is not the
> panna
> > > which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing
> > and
> > > at the same time has penetrated the true nature
> of
> > > that reality to the degree that the
> characteristic
> > > of
> > > impermanence is known.

Well, no, I'm convinced of that--partly because of the
duration of what we're talking about.  Any real dhamma
is an oh-my-gosh gazillion times gone before we can
possibly reflect on it.  So understanding, as the
likes of myself can talk about, it is always and only
at the conceptual level.  Is it reasonable to hope for
pariyatti vs. paññatti, here?  Is paritatti not
preferrable?  Or is this yet another dead end?  

> > I guess what I had in mind here was, If 'we' have
> an
> > affinity for the tilakkhana now, doesn't that
> > suggest
> > some previous 'accumulation'?
> 
> Yes, indeed it does.  But is it understanding that
> is
> derived direct knowledge of realities?  Or is it
> understanding mostly at an intellectual level, from
> considering and reflecting on the teachings
> generally
> and the tilakkhana (the characteristics of anicca,
> dukkha and anatta) in particular?

No doubt.  What I'm guessing is that understanding at
the intellectual level is conditioned by imperceptible
specks of real satipaññaa in an ocean of paññatti.  If
not, why is there any intellectual understanding at
all?  Is intellectual understanding no different from
intellectual misunderstanding?  

> >  If it's true that we
> > don't carry 'stories' from one life to the next,
> but
> > only paññaa?  Or is this just sankharuppadana (or
> > something like that)?
>
> But even though there is panna, panna of what level
> and stage of development?

Well, isn't some, at any level, better than none, at
any level?

> > > For those listening to the Buddha, developed
> panna
> > > was
> > > arising through the different doorways as he
> > spoke. 
> > > They had accumulated levels of panna in previous
> > > lives, 
> > 
> > Have we not?  If not, why are we interested today?
> 
> Yes, our interest in this life is because of panna
> accumulated in previous lives.  But this does not
> mean
> we are ready for enlightenment, even if we were to
> have the extreme good fortune of listening to the
> Buddha himself.

Suppose not--didn't seem to do Stick-In-Hand the
Brahmin (among many others) much good...  

> > > and had the right conditions for those
> > > accumulations to become manifest during the
> > lifetime
> > > of the Buddha. 
> >   I wonder
> > why some of us are attracted by the tilakkhana in
> > this
> > life, while most of us (even if we hear of it) are
> > repulsed.
> 
> As you say, it must be because of accumulated panna.
> 
> But there is still, for all of us, heaps of
> accumulated wrong view also!

Sure...

Thanks as always for 'your' patience(!)

mn


 
2956 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 3:56pm
Subject: The Foundation

 
  Dear Jinavamsa,

--- Jinavamsa   wrote: > hello
Amara and all, 

 What is
> the foundation 
> you mention? 
> 

> > I just got back from our Saturday sessions at the
> foundation,
> > 
> > Amara
> 
Yes, I realise some of us speak about the Foundation
and the majority of members here will have no idea
what we're talking about. 

The Foundation is simply the Centre in Bangkok where
Khun Sujin and some of her students teach the Dhamma.
It has only been built and in operation less than a
year.  Before that, they would teach at temples and in
particular at Wat Bovanives and hold discussions at
different venues. Now almost all the activities which
include lectures, discussions, distribution of books,
preparation of tapes for radio programmes and I'm sure
many more that I don't know about, are held at this
new Centre/Foundation. The timetable of activities,
including regular English discussions, is always
posted on Amara's website.

I might add that there is a spare room at the
Foundation for any men to stay who are visiting
Bangkok. Jonothan stayed there last weekend when he
went over for a celebration.

I hope this clarifies,

Sarah


 
 
2957 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Dear Jim
--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,

> >'Monks, there are these four ways of answering a
> >question.  What four?
> >
> >There is the question which requires a categorical
> >reply; that which requires a counter-question; that
> >which requires to be waived: and there is the
> question
> >which requires a discriminating reply. These are
> the
> >four.
> >
> > The downright answer first (eka.msa), then
> qualified
> > (vacanapara.m);
> > The third he'll counter, set the fourth aside.
> > "Skilled in the questions four" they call a monk
> > Who knows to answer fitly thus and thus.
> > Hard to o'ercome, to vanquish hard, profound,
> > Invincible is such an one, and skilled
> > To see the meaning, be it true or false;
> > Wise to reject the false, he grasps the true.
> > "Sage in the grasp of truth" (atthabhisamaya) that
> > wise one's called.'
> 
> One point to note: "there is the question which
> requires a discriminating
> reply" in the prose part may be in the wrong place
> at the end in the PTS
> text version. In my two Burmese versions, the phrase
> comes in the second
> place immediately after "categorical reply" and this
> is the order followed
> in the verse part too. The Pali for the first line
> of verse is:
> "eka.msavacana.m eka.m vibhajjavacanaapara.m".

yes, interesting. I had also noted that the order for
the prose part and the verse part were different and
the verse part followed the list you had given...We
should all encourage B.Bodhi to do a translation of
Ang Nik w/Commentary notes (or maybe you could add it
to your long list!). thanks for the Pali.
> 

> I think I see a similarity in the way the Buddha
> handled the questions in
> this sutta and the Subha sutta in that he is not
> drawn into giving a
> categorical reply, but instead goes on to give an
> analytical reply. In the
> case of Prince Abhaya, he gives an analysis of the
> Tathagata's speech and in
> the case of Subha, he gives the analysis as you have
> typed out below.

I agree and it actually raises a qu for me. In both
these contexts and in one or two others I found,
eka.msavacana (the categorical yes-no response)seems
to have negative connotations of the one-sided bias.
We have not yet found an example where the Buddha
actually gives an eka.msavacvana reponse with a
positive read as explained to Amara by the Thai pali
experts (direct, clear-cut, lobha must be lobha and
not dosa or moha rather than the one-sided
translation), so I'm just wondering.....`
> 
> I had typed only the first line from Horner's
> translation and appreciate
> your additional lines from Bodhi's translation. His
> translation of
> 'vibhajjavaada' as 'one who speaks after making an
> analysis' is the best translation of the word I've
> seen so far. I don't have
> a copy of this new translation of MN. Is this really
> BB's translation or is
> it ~Naa.namoli's?

From reading the introduction to the book, BB says 'My
aim in editing and revising the material..has not been
to reconstruct the suttas in a way that would conform
as closely as possible to the intentions of the
original translator.' He's used many of Ven
Khantipalo's changes, been helped by Ven Nyanaponika
and in addition to the PTS translations, he used a
Bumese edition in Burmese script and a Sinhala script
version. Often these last two were preferred. (This is
a v.brief summary)

He has a note about Vibhajjavado kho aham ettha at the
back w/ no reference to this being anyone else's
translation. The note says 'Such statements account
for the later designation of Buddhism as vibhajjavada,
'the doctrine of analysis'.

I'm also thinking of the Vibhanga as the book of
analysis.

> I have been thinking
> quite a bit about the four types of questions given
> in AN IV.42 and this
> has inspired me to look more seriously at the types
> of questions and answers
> in the Tipitaka and how to determine the type. I was
> curious enough to look
> in 'A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language'
> by Quirk et al for any
> classification of questions from a modern Western
> perspective. It divides
> questions into the following three major classes
> (p.806):
> 1. YES-NO questions
> 2. WH- questions
> 3. ALTERNATIVE questions (multiple choice questions)
> 
> It is easy to fit no. 1 in with the first of the 4
> Buddhist types of
> questions but I'm unsure about nos.2 & 3 which are
> also abundant in the
> Tipitaka. I think that if you ask: 'What time is
> it?' I think this would be
> a Buddhist type 1 (I'm inclined to think this type
> includes more than just
> the yes-no type), but if you ask:'Which dhammas are
> wholesome?' I'm sure
> this would be a Buddhist type 2 question requiring
> an analytical answer.

Of course a no I (Buddhist or Quirk) qu can take any
of the responses and so on. The Subha and prince
Abhaya qus were no 1 expecting a no I respnse but led
to a no 2 reply. Actually, before I go on, I think we
cannot compare grammatical constructs with an analysis
of dhammas........but an interesting linguistic poser!
good luck.

Sarah> 





 
2958 From: Sukinder Narula   
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 7:14pm
Subject: Books

 
  Dear Group,
For new members and old members who might have not read the original 
post or who might have forgotten about it, I am reposting the list of 
books that are available from the foundation, for free distribution.
1. Realities and Concepts.
2. Letters from Nina.(En/Th)
3. Understanding Reality.(En/Th)
4. Abhidhamma in Daily Life.
5. Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka.(En/Th)
6. Mental Development in Daily Life.(En/Th). A set of four books as 
   follows:-
                 a.) The Greatest Blessings.
                 b.) Death
                 c.) The Eighhtfold Path.
                 d.) Tranquil Meditation and Vipassana.
The (En/Th) means that these books are half in English and half in 
Thai (one facing the other side by side). 
Those of you who might have made the request and have not yet
recieved the books, please kindly let me know. 

Metta,

Sukin.
PS: Please note that all correspondence regarding this matter is to
be made privately to me and not to the group.

 
2959 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 0:17am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > Know that the two terms are found in only three places in the 
Tipitaka --
> twice in this sutta and once in AN X.94. To understand why the two 
terms are
> used, one needs to read the Pa~nhavyaakara.nasutta (AN X.42) and 
then read
> the commentarial explanation in the Mahaapadesa-kathaa at DA ii 567.
> 
> A question (pa~nho) is to be answered in one of the following ways:
> 1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no
> 2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically
> 3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a counter-question
> 4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside (not to be 
answered)
>      eg. Is the world eternal?
> 
> Turning now to the Subhasutta:
> 
> ... the brahman youth Subha, Todeyya's son, spoke thus to the Lord:
> "Good Gotama, brahmans speak thus: 'A householder is accomplishing 
the
> right path, dhamma, what is skilled; one who has gone forth is not
> accomplishing the right path, dhamma, what is skilled.' What does 
the good
> Gotama say to this?"
> 
> "On this point I, brahman youth, discriminate, on this point I do 
not speak
> definitely. ..."
> [Vibhajjavaado kho aham ettha, maa.nava, naaham ettha eka.msavaado.]
> -- translated by I.B. Horner, p.386


Dear Jim, Sarah and all,

I think that the answers might fit in the four major categories, but 
the real intention would probably still be to use whichever means fit 
the clarification of the problem best to the person who asked the 
question.  In the case above the question is too general and does not 
take into consideration the individual's accumulations, therefore the 
answer requires another level of understanding, and more 
thorough explanations.  The examples given by Sarah also poses 
questions that require consideration of circumsatances and 
accumulations of the individuals involved, for example what is 
agreable to some might be the opposite for others.  In short, I think 
that the answers were given to help people understand through 
different and most suitable means for the individuals involved rather 
that categorizing the questions to find the right answers.

I think it's interesting that the classification you found in  ''A 
Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language' by Quirk et al for any 
classification of questions from a modern Western perspective. It 
divides questions into the following three major classes (p.806):
            1. YES-NO questions
            2. WH- questions
            3. ALTERNATIVE questions (multiple choice questions)'
did not include answering a question with a question (3. 
pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a counter-question), one of the 
most dreaded and yet most effective methods of teaching to me 
personally and one of Khun Sujin's favorite methods.  You are forced 
to reason and remember in ways that are most instructive, although 
the wrong use could confuse the student in ways that must be full of 
akusala!  As for the most difficult to use to my mind, without 
thoroughly understanding the person who asks and their questions, is 
not to answer at all (4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set 
aside):  unless the person asked couldn't answer anyway, how would 
one know when not to answer dhamma question?  Granted, some people or 
questions in some situations are better not being answered, but I 
think the Buddha was probably alone to be able to distinguish those, 
to me almost all questions lead to dhamma, somehow.  

Just some thoughts, as are all analysis anyway!

Amara

 
2960 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 0:27am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 270(Dear Khun Shin)

 
  > In our daily life, there are vipaka that happening to us all
> the time, some are miners some are severe..
> as long as we know it's our vipaka.
> and there is nothing we can do (except study and accumulate more 
kusala 
> jitta) 
> may be we can reduce dosa  jitta a bit?


Dear Khun O,

I think that knowledge must automatically be of some help, especially 
if we realize that it's our vipaka at that instant, because the citta 
arise one at a time and when the citta considers the truth it is not 
involved with lobha, dosa or moha.  Therefore at least at that 
instant it is not involved with the dosa of the situation, making at 
least that much citta without akusala.  Then the sight, sound and 
smell of the circumstances might condition akusala to arise again, 
but at least while there was right thinking the akusala could not 
arise with that particular citta, so a little less akusala 
accumulated, as well as a little more right understanding!  What do 
you think?

Amara

 
2961 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok

 
  Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> In Bangkok (at the Foundation) they have put Khun
> Sujin's talks into MP3 format on CD-ROM's. If you
> think this experience might be helpful to you, I am
> told that the person to contact is Khun Unnop whose
> email address is the one given as the cc addressee
> for
> tapes and books orders (I will post it as soon as i
> manage to locate it)

Still plugging away at this project haltingly, and in
my spare time.  Maybe making a little progress.  Do
you know if Khun Unnop speaks/reads English?  I would
like to contact him about this.

Thanks...mn


 
2962 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Housekeeping

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> What we really need (I think) is some sort of index
> system to help us all, but I've no idea how this is
> done. Any volunteers out there? Another (smallish)
> problem is that s'times the threads lead away from
> the
> original subject headings....

I've been looking at the 'files' and 'database'
options for moderators at e-groups, and thinking about
the possibilities.  I don't think indexing is the
answer in this environment.  Of course we can search
now by keyword or author in the archives, but I don't
think that's exactly what we're after.

I've taken the liberty of adding a text file to the
'files' and a link to it to the 'links' of
dhammastudygroup.  It's a little rough but I think
you'll see the potential.

I'd rather use HTML files (for the formatting), but I
haven't found that option here and this would (I
think) require space on another server.  I think free
space is easy enough to come by, but haven't really
investigated this yet.

mike   


 
2963 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Jon,

---  wrote:
> Mike
> 
> I must say I have learnt a lot from reading your
> posts about inter-
> personal relations, a skill in which I am rather
> lacking.  Would you 
> mind if I copy your formula for use with my own
> posts?

Your point is well taken.  In fact, my 'interpersonal
relations' certainly have a lot more to do with
unwholesome than with wholesome states.  This is a
timely admonition and I thank you for it.

mn


 
2964 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> --- "m. nease"  wrote: 

> > Nice citation! Especially in the context of the
> > 'robes' thread.  As you may recall, I have yet to
> > read
> > the commentaries--so you may be engaging in a duel
> > of
> > wits with an unarmed opponent...
> 
> Mike, you're a LOT more familiar with the suttas
> than
> I am and really I've read preciously little of the
> commentaries, but sometimes the extra notes and maps
> do help!

Let's not get carried away--some recent posts of yours
make you familiarity with the tripitaka quite
clear--and quite clearly beyond my own.

> BTW, I meant to thank you for also posting the link
> and comments on Piyajatika Sutta (From One Who is
> Dear). It's been a condition for some useful
> reflection even though I had nothing to add because
> the Sutta really said it all! 

I do hope you'll go to the trouble of looking up the
PTS translation.  You (or another scholar) could
probably correct me on this, but 'Born of Affection'
seems to me much more to the point than 'From One Who
Is Dear'.  

mn


 
2965 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> Pannati can only be the object of the mind dvara,
> which is not 
> pannati itself and therefore can be object of
> awareness, of 
> satipatthana.  One could be aware of thinking at the
> moment of 
> thinking, and therefore at the moment or after one
> could experience 
> the characteristics of thinking which are completely
> different from 
> those of an instant of seeing, even at this moment
> when there are 
> both going on, plus hearing, touching, and
> innumerable bhavangas 
> interposing.  

In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of thinking
at the moment of thinking' unless that process were
repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  Do you
mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of awareness
might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
imperceptible trace?  

Thanks in advance,

mike


 
2966 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

--- amara chay  wrote:

> Dhammanupassana encompasses all dvara because the
> manodvara 
> experiences all the arammana in sequence to the
> other dvara as well 
> as through the manodvara proper.  

Right, thanks.  I think this unique characteristic of
the manodvara together with its similarities to the
dvi-pancadvaras is important to remember.

mike


 
2967 From:  
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 274

 
  Dear Sara,Amara and khun Shin:

Thanks so much for your prompt respond
Amara, I'm totally agree with you that jitta
can only arises one at a time, however
had we not know the dhamma? We'd still be
in shock, frantic and for sure having a nightmare
about the ugly scene.
It isn't easy to forget such an incident (at least if it were me)
Amara, I feel very fortunate to have learned Abidhamma
It is the most importance thing  in everyone's life.
To have an understanding about the reality that one have to
face in daily life...
 Sara, how are you? Hope you and Jon got something good out
of Cambodia trip.
 For me, I'm kind of feel guilty that I haven't participate much
when there were a discussion.
Jaran's now in Germany on the business trip.
Thanks to him he gave me the tape of Cambodia trip.
    Now that I'm home I have more time to swallow little
by little. Jack and Oii are very busy I don't think they have time
to join the discussion, but I 'll certainty try to convince them.
 Khun Shin,Thanks so much for sharing your story.
Anumodana ka,
O

 
2968 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > As for the most difficult to use to my mind, without 
> thoroughly understanding the person who asks and their questions, is 
> not to answer at all (4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set 
> aside):  unless the person asked couldn't answer anyway, how would 
> one know when not to answer dhamma question?  Granted, some people 
or 
> questions in some situations are better not being answered, but I 
> think the Buddha was probably alone to be able to distinguish those, 
> to me almost all questions lead to dhamma, somehow.  


Dear Jim, Sarah and all,

I just realized that I did just that, not answer a dhamma question, 
only two days ago, when a friend of a friend asked me about a school 
of 'meditation retreats'.  An excerpt of his message:

>As my method is Anapanasati I am highly sceptical of
>what appears to me as a forced type of meditation without much 
grounding in the
>Suttas. I remember that we (when I was still a monk) spoke of the 
Vipassana-
>factory and the black-out place, not very respectfully I´m afraid.
>Pierre told me that you might have more information regarding this 
matter, for I
>would like to form an opinion based on facts and not on rumors and 
prejudice.
>I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me.
>Sorry for bothering you and taking your time.


To which I replied:


I am sorry I do not know much about 'meditation retreats' of any 
tradition, I only study meditation in daily life, as in satipatthana 
as taught in the Tipitaka.  The Buddha was enlightened while studying 
the present after considering the endless future and the innumerable 
rebirths in the past, and he taught repeatedly about how we can only 
experience the world through the six dvara, and how we should be aware 
of the characteristics of realities as appears through them, such as 
now as you read this there must be seeing, a nama or an element that 
is intelligence which can experience things, and the visible object 
that is its arammana.  The citta is 17 times faster than any speed of 
light, therefore as we see, other citta also arise and make us feel 
that we are seeing and hearing at the same time, whereas in reality 
that citta that hears arises in alternation with the seeing, and the 
characteristics are distinct.  Alternating with that theoretically 
there are the bhavanga citta or life continuum which arise in great 
numbers which we could never experience even through the manodvara.  
Besides that we also have the body sense feeling the keyboard or the 
mouse, and countless precesses of thinking throught the manodvara.  
The characteristics of each of these dhamma or realities could give us 
knowledge of things as they really are, as taught by no one else but 
the Buddha, as different dhatu or elements arising and falling away in 
sequence with extreme rapidity, under no one's control since by the 
time we experienced them they had fallen away.  But the study of their 
characteristics as they appear would teach us that they are forever 
changing and not the self, hence uncontrolable, just different 
realities that arise and fall away from conditions.  As seeing or 
visible objects arise now when you read this, where is the self?  It 
only exists when we think of it.  Awareness of things as they really 
are could accumulate knowledge that would get clearer, deeper and more 
powerful until there is full realization of things as they really are, 
nama as nama and rupa as rupa.  

If you are interested in the explanation about vipassana/samatha as 
explained in the Tipitaka, may I suggest reading the following 
chapters in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced 
section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, chapters 7&8.  I am sorry I 
couldn't answer your question about the meditation retreats,

(End quote)

I suppose this is an example of the not answering type (4. 
.thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside), perhaps followed by 
an explanation of something not asked at all but pertinent to the 
answer-- perhaps to be included in the analytical one (2. 
vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically)?

Amara

 
 
2969 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:29pm
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of thinking
> at the moment of thinking' unless that process were
> repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  Do you
> mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of awareness
> might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
> imperceptible trace?  


Dear Mike,

Any citta that is evolving with kusala, even when one is studying the 
truth, or the dhamma, has to have sati arising with it since sati 
arises with all kusala citta.  Even our bhavanga would have sati since 
all humans are born because of kusala vipaka, although the degrees 
vary, but as the bhavanga are only life continuum and would not 
accumulate anything further since its duty is to pass on all the 
accumulations from the preceding citta and maintain life.  Most of the 
time, without knowing about sati, panna and satipatthana, one would 
never have deeper or stronger sati arising, but hearing or studying 
the dhamma could be conditions for more perceptible awareness to arise 
and accumulate and grow stronger to become fleetingly perceptible, and 
become paccaya ('upasissaya paccaya') for the next moments of sati to 
arise.  But as you say the 'imperceptible trace' would also be there 
even at other moments of imperceptible sati arising with kusala citta 
evolving with dana, sila or bhavana.  Nothing is ever lost, both good 
and bad, until we are able to end rebirth in samsara.

Amara

 
2970 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:36pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 274

 
  > I'm totally agree with you that jitta
> can only arises one at a time, however
> had we not know the dhamma? We'd still be
> in shock, frantic and for sure having a nightmare
> about the ugly scene.
> It isn't easy to forget such an incident (at least if it were me)
> Amara, I feel very fortunate to have learned Abidhamma
> It is the most importance thing  in everyone's life.
> To have an understanding about the reality that one have to
> face in daily life...


Dear O,

You are absolutely right, without the dhamma there would be much more 
moments of akusala for me, even when things like that do not happen.  
The teachings are the most precious things in life, aren't they, and 
the best thing is that you can take it with you no matter where your 
next lifetime will be!

Anumodana with all those who study,

Amara

 
2971 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Good points, Khun Amara, thanks...mn


 
2972 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:27am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  hello Mike and Khun Amara and all, 

re the comment: 

> In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of thinking
> at the moment of thinking' unless that process were
> repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  Do you
> mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of awareness
> might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
> imperceptible trace?  

====
Let me see if I understand. Suppose that we are practicing
mindfulness. And at one moment, what arises in consciousness
is a thought, or thinking. This is noticed as it arises or 
comes to be/appear, and as it is replaced by whatever comes
next in consciousness. That is/was fairly simple. What would be
the idea of an infinite regress here [which is how I read
the "repeatedly unimaginably vast number of times" phrase to 
be suggesting]? 
thank you.
Jinavamsa
=============

 
2973 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:35am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  hello Amara Chay and all, 
I will not reply here to the classification of this answer to 
another's question in terms of the four sorts of question that
are differentiated from one another in some discourses (suttas). 
Instead I wanted to look at the question itself. More below 
in context, then. 
Jinavamsa


---  "amara chay"  
wrote:
> 
> 
>  
> > As for the most difficult to use to my mind, without 
> > thoroughly understanding the person who asks and their questions, 
is 
> > not to answer at all (4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set 
> > aside):  unless the person asked couldn't answer anyway, how would 
> > one know when not to answer dhamma question?  Granted, some people 
> or 
> > questions in some situations are better not being answered, but I 
> > think the Buddha was probably alone to be able to distinguish 
those, 
> > to me almost all questions lead to dhamma, somehow.  
> 
> 
> Dear Jim, Sarah and all,
> 
> I just realized that I did just that, not answer a dhamma question, 
> only two days ago, when a friend of a friend asked me about a school 
> of 'meditation retreats'.  An excerpt of his message:
> 
> >As my method is Anapanasati I am highly sceptical of
> >what appears to me as a forced type of meditation without much 
> grounding in the
> >Suttas. I remember that we (when I was still a monk) spoke of the 
> Vipassana-
> >factory and the black-out place, not very respectfully I´m afraid.
> >Pierre told me that you might have more information regarding this 
> matter, for I
> >would like to form an opinion based on facts and not on rumors and 
> prejudice.
> >I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me.
> >Sorry for bothering you and taking your time.

======
Of course there is a discourse called the discourse on awareness
of the in and out breathing (ânâpânasati-sutta), it's in the 
Majjhima Nikaya, No. 118. As to whether mindfulness of breath
is forced, I would wonder/ask this person what is the forced 
part here? It is structured. Such a person might either look 
at resistance to a structured meditation (without judging this
resistance as bad, or as good, for that matter) or try a more
open mindfulness practice, guided purely by the orientation "Pay
attention to whatever arises next in consciouness." That might 
be a more congenial practice for such a mind-state (iow, for 
a person with such a sense of how to do things). And what sort
of meditation retreat might he/she be interested in? I assume
something in the vipassanâ tradition, but that's just perhaps
reading into the text a bit too much.... 
Jinavamsa
=============

 
2974 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 2:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Hello Jina,

My point was that the arising and subsiding of a nama
is so rapid that unless a very great many similar
namas arise in succession they would not be noticable.
 I'm still pretty new to all this so I may well be
mistaken.

What I think of as a noticable 'thought' is a concept,
and not a nama (such as vitakka).  Does this make
sense?

mike
  
--- Jinavamsa   wrote:
> hello Mike and Khun Amara and all, 
> 
> re the comment: 
> 
> > In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of
> thinking
> > at the moment of thinking' unless that process
> were
> > repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  Do
> you
> > mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of
> awareness
> > might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
> > imperceptible trace?  
> 
> ====
> Let me see if I understand. Suppose that we are
> practicing
> mindfulness. And at one moment, what arises in
> consciousness
> is a thought, or thinking. This is noticed as it
> arises or 
> comes to be/appear, and as it is replaced by
> whatever comes
> next in consciousness. That is/was fairly simple.
> What would be
> the idea of an infinite regress here [which is how I
> read
> the "repeatedly unimaginably vast number of times"
> phrase to 
> be suggesting]? 
> thank you.
> Jinavamsa
> =============
> 



 
2975 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 8:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Amara wrote:

Dear Jim, Sarah and all,

I just realized that I did just that, not answer a dhamma question,
only two days ago, when a friend of a friend asked me about a school
of 'meditation retreats'.  An excerpt of his message:

>As my method is Anapanasati I am highly sceptical of
>what appears to me as a frced type of meditation without much
grounding in the
>Suttas. I remember that we (when I was still a monk) spoke of the
Vipassana-
>factory and the black-out place, not very respectfully I´m afraid.
>Pierre told me that you might have more information regarding this
matter, for I
>would like to form an opinion based on facts and not on rumors and
prejudice.
>I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me.
>Sorry for bothering you and taking your time.


To which I replied:


I am sorry I do not know much about 'meditation retreats' of any
tradition, I only study meditation in daily life, as in satipatthana
as taught in the Tipitaka.  The Buddha was enlightened while studying
the present after considering the endless future and the innumerable
rebirths in the past, and he taught repeatedly about how we can only
experience the world through the six dvara, and how we should be aware
of the characteristics of realities as appears through them, such as
now as you read this there must be seeing, a nama or an element that
is intelligence which can experience things, and the visible object
that is its arammana.  The citta is 17 times faster than any speed of
light, therefore as we see, other citta also arise and make us feel
that we are seeing and hearing at the same time, whereas in reality
that citta that hears arises in alternation with the seeing, and the
characteristics are distinct.  Alternating with that theoretically
there are the bhavanga citta or life continuum which arise in great
numbers which we could never experience even through the manodvara.
Besides that we also have the body sense feeling the keyboard or the
mouse, and countless precesses of thinking throught the manodvara.
The characteristics of each of these dhamma or realities could give us
knowledge of things as they really are, as taught by no one else but
the Buddha, as different dhatu or elements arising and falling away in
sequence with extreme rapidity, under no one's control since by the
time we experienced them they had fallen away.  But the study of their
characteristics as they appear would teach us that they are forever
changing and not the self, hence uncontrolable, just different
realities that arise and fall away from conditions.  As seeing or
visible objects arise now when you read this, where is the self?  It
only exists when we think of it.  Awareness of things as they really
are could accumulate knowledge that would get clearer, deeper and more
powerful until there is full realization of things as they really are,
nama as nama and rupa as rupa.

If you are interested in the explanation about vipassana/samatha as
explained in the Tipitaka, may I suggest reading the following
chapters in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced
section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, chapters 7&8.  I am sorry I
couldn't answer your question about the meditation retreats,

(End quote)

I suppose this is an example of the not answering type (4.
.thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside), perhaps followed by
an explanation of something not asked at all but pertinent to the
answer-- perhaps to be included in the analytical one (2.
vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically)?

Amara

=======================

Dear Amara,

I don't see your correspondent's question about the meditation retreats, but
what I see is a request for information concerning facts about meditation.
So is he really asking a question or just requesting information? I think
the last (short) paragraph of your reply is more relevant to what he is
requesting than the first (long) paragraph.

The Dighanikaya commentary (DA ii 567) gives a simple example for each of
the four types of questions and answers.

1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no

"Is the eye impermanent? (cakkhu.m aniccan ti)" is to be answered
categorically with: "Yes, it is impermanent. (aama aniccan ti)"

2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically

"Is only the eye impermanent? (anicca.m naama cakkhun ti)" is to be answered
analytically with: "Not only the eye (but) also the ear is impermanent and
the nose is impermanent.(na cakkhumeva sotampi anicca.m ghaanampi
anicccan ti)" [I'm uncertain about how to translate 'naama' in the question]

3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a counter-question

"As the eye, so the ear; as the ear, so the eye. (yathaa cakkhu.m tathaa
sotam; yathaa sota.m tathaa cakkhun ti)" is to be counterquestioned: "In
what sense do you ask? (ken'a.t.thena pucchaasii ti)" When "I ask in the
sense of seeing (dassan'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is spoken it is to be
answered "No (na hii ti)."; when "I ask in the sense of impermanent
(anicc'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is spoken, it is to be answered "Yes (aamaa
ti)".

4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside (not to be answered)

"Are the soul and the body the same? (ta.m jiiva.m ta.m sariiran ti)" is to
be set aside with: "This is unanswered by the Blessed One (avyaakatam eta.m
Bhagavataa ti). [For more examples of this type of question see the
Avyaakatasa.myutta]

These may be the only examples we have to work with and we'll have to
figure out what is appropriate for the remaining billions of other questions
of every shape and form. There is a common type of question in the Tipitaka
such as: Is ruupa permanent or impermanent? This would be what is called an
alternative type question as classified in the English grammar book cited in
a previous post and I would label this one a type 1in the Sutta scheme. I
would be inclined to class questions that are not answered as no. 4 even if
the reason is that the person does not know the answer when others may, or
the question is too personal, or it doesn't really need an answer, and so
on. In my first paragraph above I ask you a question, but in my mind you
have a choice of answering it or not. It's up to you and if you decide that
it's a no. 4 -- that's ok with me.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
2976 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  hello Mike, 
I see. We are talking on several levels of understanding at 
the same time here, and trying to fit them together. At least
if I follow along with what I'm reading. 
We have nama (nâma) as a general category covering what is 
mental, as in the term nâma-rûpa. Then we can think of each 
moment of consciousness and its reported brevity. I read 
(here?) recently about it's being faster than the speed of 
light. I don't remember that in particular, but still, it 
was something very short-lived indeed. But if we look at 
how things work in paying attention to consciousness, we can 
notice a smell, for example, or a sound, and these are not
over in a one-twenty-thousandth of a second, say (or whatever
perhaps-overly, perhaps-artificially precise measure of its 
duration). They are long enough for us to notice. Anyway, it 
was in that meditationally-applicable sense that I was speaking
of a thought or a thinking (to give it the verbal sense we 
might feel in the Indic expressions). I leave here the earlier
exchange... there's perhaps more to say, anyway. 
jina


---  "m. nease"  wrote:
> Hello Jina,
> 
> My point was that the arising and subsiding of a nama
> is so rapid that unless a very great many similar
> namas arise in succession they would not be noticable.
>  I'm still pretty new to all this so I may well be
> mistaken.
> 
> What I think of as a noticable 'thought' is a concept,
> and not a nama (such as vitakka).  Does this make
> sense?
> 
> mike
>   
> --- Jinavamsa wrote:
> > hello Mike and Khun Amara and all, 
> > 
> > re the comment: 
> > 
> > > In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of
> > thinking
> > > at the moment of thinking' unless that process
> > were
> > > repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  Do
> > you
> > > mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of
> > awareness
> > > might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
> > > imperceptible trace?  
> > 
> > ====
> > Let me see if I understand. Suppose that we are
> > practicing
> > mindfulness. And at one moment, what arises in
> > consciousness
> > is a thought, or thinking. This is noticed as it
> > arises or 
> > comes to be/appear, and as it is replaced by
> > whatever comes
> > next in consciousness. That is/was fairly simple.
> > What would be
> > the idea of an infinite regress here [which is how I
> > read
> > the "repeatedly unimaginably vast number of times"
> > phrase to 
> > be suggesting]? 
> > thank you.
> > Jinavamsa
> > =============
> > 
> > 


 
2977 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:23am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > > In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of thinking
> > at the moment of thinking' unless that process were
> > repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  


Dear Jina,

I think Mike was being modest of his citta'a accumulated ability to 
be mindful of thinking as a nama, a kind of citta experiencing 
thoughts, which happen in alternation with other kinds of citta 
almost all through your waking hours and even when you dream.  When 
you are fast asleep or in a coma, the bhavanga citta (life continuum) 
keep you alive and during the waking hours they arise in between 
processes of citta through the other sense dvara and the subsequent 
manodvara maintaining life until the next vipaka (the result of 
former kamma) brings result as the next instant of experiencing some 
arammana through one of the five dvara.  Your reaction of like (a 
degree of lobha) or dislike (a degree of dosa) for the arammana 
perceived is due to your accumulations, and if you do not realize it 
is a nama and not the self, there could be more upanissaya paccaya 
(conditions born of repetition or precedent behavior that facilitate 
the same kind of citta to arise again in the future).  If the lobha 
or dosa is strong enough, it might result in some kamma (physical or 
verbal actions) that, if it were akusala (against the five precepts, 
for example), would result in some unpleasant vipaka in the future.  
To be aware of thoughts as such is very beneficial, one is not fooled 
by the senses as being a person or a self, but the characteristics of 
thinking as impermanent, ever changing and uncontrolable could be 
studied like the rest of realities.


> > Do you
> > mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of awareness
> > might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
> > imperceptible trace?  
> 
> ====
> Let me see if I understand. Suppose that we are practicing
> mindfulness. And at one moment, what arises in consciousness
> is a thought, or thinking. This is noticed as it arises or 
> comes to be/appear, and as it is replaced by whatever comes
> next in consciousness. That is/was fairly simple. What would be
> the idea of an infinite regress here [which is how I read
> the "repeatedly unimaginably vast number of times" phrase to 
> be suggesting]? 


I think Mike was talking about how fast the citta is, and that 
although it can arise only one at a time as soon as it falls away it 
is the anatara paccaya (immediate cause, with no interval possible) 
for the next citta to arise subsequently.  In a tiny moment 
uncountable citta arise and fall away so that only another nama, the 
sati cetasika, could detect the citta and cetasika, and even so there 
has to be conditions for sati to arise (it arises uniquely with 
kusala citta) and to begin to be aware of realities, not only the 
nama (without knowledge that the soul is not one continuos entity 
that begins with birth and ends with death or beyond, and not 
instants of citta arising and falling away with extreme rapidity and 
changing continually, under no one's control, not even a higher 
power's, the study of the characteristics of realities as they really 
are could never begin, except for the Buddha who discovered this 
truth) but for the rupa as well.  In the process of thinking, the 
nama would be the thinking and the arammana would be concepts or 
thoughts of the arammana received in sequence from the five sense 
dvara.

If you are interested in the mechanisms of the citta you might want 
to read Q&A5 in the Q&A section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> or 
for more detail the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' chapters on the 
citta in the advanced section of the same site.

Please tell us what you think,

Amara

 
2978 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:37am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  ---  "Jinavamsa" wrote:
> hello Amara Chay and all, 
> I will not reply here to the classification of this answer to 
> another's question in terms of the four sorts of question that
> are differentiated from one another in some discourses (suttas). 
> Instead I wanted to look at the question itself. More below 
> in context, then. 

> Of course there is a discourse called the discourse on awareness
> of the in and out breathing (ânâpânasati-sutta), it's in the 
> Majjhima Nikaya, No. 118. As to whether mindfulness of breath
> is forced, I would wonder/ask this person what is the forced 
> part here? It is structured. Such a person might either look 
> at resistance to a structured meditation (without judging this
> resistance as bad, or as good, for that matter) or try a more
> open mindfulness practice, guided purely by the orientation "Pay
> attention to whatever arises next in consciouness." That might 
> be a more congenial practice for such a mind-state (iow, for 
> a person with such a sense of how to do things). And what sort
> of meditation retreat might he/she be interested in? I assume
> something in the vipassanâ tradition, but that's just perhaps
> reading into the text a bit too much.... 


Dear Jina,

I did not post his entire message because I did not think it relevant 
to the types of questions and answers we were studying, but I see that 
it might have been misleading, so here it is, I have taken the names 
out as I don't think they are relevant:

>*** gave your adress to me. My name is ***,
>formerly ***. I stayed in robes for six years and was quite
>involved in *** meditationretreats for foreigners. Since more than 10
>years I´m back in Germany and participate in a local buddhist group.
>This group is dedicated to the study and practise of authentic 
Buddha-Dhamma
>very similar to the style *** propagated.
>Now there is an increasing fraction of students of *** coming in, 
trying to turn this group into a pure meditation group of
>the *** method. As my method is Anapanasati I am highly sceptical of
>what appears to me as a forced type of meditation without much 
grounding in the
>Suttas. I remember that we (when I was still a monk) spoke of the 
Vipassana-
>factory and the black-out place, not very respectfully I´m afraid.
>*** told me that you might have more information regarding this 
matter, for I
>would like to form an opinion based on facts and not on rumors and 
prejudice.
>I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me.
>Sorry for bothering you and taking your time.
***


You will see that he was not against Anapanasati in the least.  My 
reply was an explanation of my own studies, nothing to do with 
retreats, though I did suggest he read the chapters on 'samatha' and 
'vipassana' in the 'Summary...' also.

Amara

 
2979 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:47am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > My point was that the arising and subsiding of a nama
> is so rapid that unless a very great many similar
> namas arise in succession they would not be noticable.
>  I'm still pretty new to all this so I may well be
> mistaken.
> 
> What I think of as a noticable 'thought' is a concept,
> and not a nama (such as vitakka).  Does this make
> sense?


Dear Mike,

Even without labling them thoughts or vitakka, you could see the 
differences between seeing, hearing, tasting and touching, and 
thinking, don't you think?  The characteristic of seeing and its 
arammana, visible objects, right now?

It is a long and difficult path out of samsara, but the Buddha told 
us to be brave and cheerful in the studies, which could only bring 
good results!  So let's keep walking,

Amara

 
2980 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 0:17pm
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > I don't see your correspondent's question about the meditation 
retreats, but
> what I see is a request for information concerning facts about 
meditation.
> So is he really asking a question or just requesting information? I 
think
> the last (short) paragraph of your reply is more relevant to what he 
is
> requesting than the first (long) paragraph.
> 
> The Dighanikaya commentary (DA ii 567) gives a simple example for 
each of
> the four types of questions and answers.
> 
> 1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no
> 
> "Is the eye impermanent? (cakkhu.m aniccan ti)" is to be answered
> categorically with: "Yes, it is impermanent. (aama aniccan ti)"
> 
> 2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically
> 
> "Is only the eye impermanent? (anicca.m naama cakkhun ti)" is to be 
answered
> analytically with: "Not only the eye (but) also the ear is 
impermanent and
> the nose is impermanent.(na cakkhumeva sotampi anicca.m ghaanampi
> anicccan ti)" [I'm uncertain about how to translate 'naama' in the 
question]
> 
> 3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a counter-question
> 
> "As the eye, so the ear; as the ear, so the eye. (yathaa cakkhu.m 
tathaa
> sotam; yathaa sota.m tathaa cakkhun ti)" is to be counterquestioned: 
"In
> what sense do you ask? (ken'a.t.thena pucchaasii ti)" When "I ask in 
the
> sense of seeing (dassan'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is spoken it is to 
be
> answered "No (na hii ti)."; when "I ask in the sense of impermanent
> (anicc'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is spoken, it is to be answered 
"Yes (aamaa
> ti)".
> 
> 4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya --  to be set aside (not to be 
answered)
> 
> "Are the soul and the body the same? (ta.m jiiva.m ta.m sariiran 
ti)" is to
> be set aside with: "This is unanswered by the Blessed One 
(avyaakatam eta.m
> Bhagavataa ti). [For more examples of this type of question see the
> Avyaakatasa.myutta]
> 
> These may be the only examples we have to work with and we'll have 
to
> figure out what is appropriate for the remaining billions of other 
questions
> of every shape and form. There is a common type of question in the 
Tipitaka
> such as: Is ruupa permanent or impermanent? This would be what is 
called an
> alternative type question as classified in the English grammar book 
cited in
> a previous post and I would label this one a type 1in the Sutta 
scheme. I
> would be inclined to class questions that are not answered as no. 4 
even if
> the reason is that the person does not know the answer when others 
may, or
> the question is too personal, or it doesn't really need an answer, 
and so
> on. In my first paragraph above I ask you a question, but in my mind 
you
> have a choice of answering it or not. It's up to you and if you 
decide that
> it's a no. 4 -- that's ok with me.


Dear Jim,

Thank you for your analysis, I see you make a distinction between the 
request for information and a question which escaped me.  The more so 
perhaps since normally both situations could use the common verb, to 
ask, (to ask for information, to ask a question) and both request 
answers.  To clarify things a bit more, you would say that if your 
example from the Subhasutta:

> Turning now to the Subhasutta:
> 
> ... the brahman youth Subha, Todeyya's son, spoke thus to the Lord:
> "Good Gotama, brahmans speak thus: 'A householder is accomplishing 
the
> right path, dhamma, what is skilled; one who has gone forth is not
> accomplishing the right path, dhamma, what is skilled.' What does 
the good
> Gotama say to this?"


were not followed by the question, he would not be asking anything?  
This is a distinction I need to study more closely.  For example if my 
correspondent had been more specific and asked me who such people 
were, what their methods are and what I thought of them they would 
constitute questions?

Please don't think I am nit-picking, in normal Thai scripts there are 
no question marks, they came only recently with the more modern Thai 
usage.

Thank you for your patience,

Amara



> "On this point I, brahman youth, discriminate, on this point I do 
not speak
> definitely. ..."
> [Vibhajjavaado kho aham ettha, maa.nava, naaham ettha eka.msavaado.]
> -- translated by I.B. Horner, p.386

 
2981 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: perception/memory, consciousness

 
  Mike

My reference to your interpersonal skills was entirly
genuine, so please do not take it as an admonition in
any shape or form.  None was intended and none is
called for, least of all from me.

I apologise that the tone of the rest of my message
left room for this misintepretation.  This is a useful
reminder for me that 'speech' that is encouraging,
sympathetic and helpful to others is always the best
speech, for which reminder, my thanks.

Jon


 --- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> Jon,
> 
> ---  wrote:
> > Mike
> > 
> > I must say I have learnt a lot from reading your
> > posts about inter-
> > personal relations, a skill in which I am rather
> > lacking.  Would you 
> > mind if I copy your formula for use with my own
> > posts?
> 
> Your point is well taken.  In fact, my
> 'interpersonal
> relations' certainly have a lot more to do with
> unwholesome than with wholesome states.  This is a
> timely admonition and I thank you for it.
> 
> mn



 
2982 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Amara

> I just realized that I did just that, not answer a
> dhamma question, 
> only two days ago, when a friend of a friend asked
> me about a school 
> of 'meditation retreats'.  An excerpt of his
> message:

You might like to suggest he post his query to this
list.  There are a number of members who would have
something to say on this subject, many of them with
first-hand experience of meditation retreats.

Jonothan


 
2983 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 2:30pm
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  > You might like to suggest he post his query to this
> list.  There are a number of members who would have
> something to say on this subject, many of them with
> first-hand experience of meditation retreats.


Jonothan

Have done.  When I suggested he read the chapters of the 'Summary' he 
wrote back that it was what he was looking for and that he had 
downloaded practically the whole book, so I in turn suggested that if 
he had any questions or points he wished to discuss he might post it 
here, as well as to write me in private, whichever he perferred, but 
that here he would have many more points of views, of course.

Amara

 
 
2984 From: shin lin   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 6:30pm
Subject: My sister Maggie

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends,
I believe there are many friends who are like my younger sister, Maggie 
who entered this discussion and would like to get out right away because 
she didn't understand what everyone was talking about and within one 
day, she received so much mails, which she has no cue of what is going 
on.. 
She told me that she is going to log off because it scared her off.
IS there any possibilities which we can do like setting group for total 
beginners ? There are some people who does not have any idea what is 
dhamma ? And Maggie is one of them. She only knows how to meditate 
and recites.. She has no idea of what dhamma is and I think it is 
extremely hard for me to explain to her.
It would be appreciated if any of you can help her. Anumodana.
asking for help,
Shin

 
2985 From:  
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 6:40pm
Subject: Hello

 
  Hello,
I am Shin Lin's sister, Maggie... Pls kindly advise me what is the best for 
beginners.. 
I believe only every action equal to every reaction. So I just have to pray 
and be peaceful. What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?
with regards,
Maggie

 
2986 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 7:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello

 
  hi maggie

i'm a beginner too....it seems you're starting off the right way: asking
questions -- at least, that is what has worked for me, so i can recommend
it...i don't feel as though i have enough wisdom to explain what i think i
know, so i am just content asking questions, and trying to understand
everyone's very generous answers and explanations....

a lot of people on this list use a lot of pali....it might seem difficult
or obscure at first, but the more we are exposed to pali, the more familiar
we become with it....as i study the Dhamma i've come to realize that the
concepts are actually expressed a lot more clearly in pali, and i'm
beginning to consider and study the Dhamma using more and more pali....

there is a very good glossary on the website at
http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html
where you can quickly look up almost any word someone on this list will
use....i downloaded the whole glossary and keep it on my hard disk so i can
access it any time....

also: you can start reading articles on the web as preparation for email
study:
http://www.dhammastudy.com/
the articles here are graded....i keep going back to the "beginner" section
to reinforce what i'm learning....


some practical advice:  if there are too many emails, use filters and send
them to a dhammastudy mailbox so they don't fill up your inbox, or else
read them on the web where you can put them in order according to
topic-thread....read as much as possible, but don't feel obligated to read
everything!  -- i know i can't keep up sometimes, so i just don't force it....

anyway, my basic advice is: 
ask questions. 
use the website for background study. 
and above all, have patience. 

as for your very direct question:  "What is the purpose of studying
Dhamma?", i'll leave that to some more experienced list-members to answer....

be well, peaceful and happy
bruce



At 10:40 2001/01/25 -0000, you wrote:
> Hello,
> I am Shin Lin's sister, Maggie... Pls kindly advise me what is the best for 
> beginners.. 
> I believe only every action equal to every reaction. So I just have to pray 
> and be peaceful. What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?
> with regards,
> Maggie

 
2987 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello

 
  Dear Maggie,
We are all beginners here. It is just that some of us have been
studying longer and have picked up some Pali. As Bruce said you
may come to see the use in this later. 
But for now don't worry about that. You have done the right
thing asking a question - we don't have to use pali to discuss
it and for now you can simply ignore the more technical posts
(which are literally in a foreign language). 
You said only a little but it is clear you have some confidence
in cause and effect. (You probably know the word kamma- this
essentially means cause and is an important part of Buddhism).
The Buddha carefully described  causes and results so that we
could understand and untangle the mass of conditions we call
life. It is a very gradual process to do this - but even a
little understanding is truly priceless.
I leave it at that for now. Do read the beginner articles, as
Bruce advised, and books at www.dhammastudy.com 
I have read some of them more than 10times and still find
guidance even now.
Robert
---  wrote:
> Hello,
> I am Shin Lin's sister, Maggie... Pls kindly advise me what is
> the best for 
> beginners.. 
> I believe only every action equal to every reaction. So I just
> have to pray 
> and be peaceful. What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?
> with regards,
> Maggie
> 



 
2988 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 8:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Hello Again, Jina,

(By the way, do you remember meeting on the d-l last
year?  It was Dhiravamsa who first introduced me to
the Theravada by way, interestingly, of
vedananupassana.)

--- Jinavamsa   wrote:

> re the comment: 
> 
> > In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of
> thinking
> > at the moment of thinking' unless that process
> were
> > repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  Do
> you
> > mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of
> awareness
> > might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
> > imperceptible trace?  
> ====
> Let me see if I understand. Suppose that we are
> practicing
> mindfulness. And at one moment, what arises in
> consciousness
> is a thought, or thinking. This is noticed as it
> arises or 
> comes to be/appear, and as it is replaced by
> whatever comes
> next in consciousness. That is/was fairly simple.
> What would be
> the idea of an infinite regress here [which is how I
> read
> the "repeatedly unimaginably vast number of times"
> phrase to 
> be suggesting]? 
> thank you.
> Jinavamsa
> =============

I awoke around 3AM thinking about this and I don't
think I gave your question regarding my comment due
consideration.  I want to take another stab at this by
way of my own limited understanding, using as little
abhidhamma terminology (in which language I'm nearly
illiterate, anyway) as possible.

I'm a big Buster Keaton fan.  Suppose I'm watching a
Buster Keaton movie on TV, and someone comes along and
says, "That isn't Buster Keaton." So I say, "Whaddaya
mean, of COURSE it's Buster Keaton, who do YOU think
it is?!" and he says (rather smugly), "It isn't anyone
at all.  It's just light from the tube in your
television set, electronically converted from an
extremely rapid series of still images, each one
nearly identical to the previous one (because of
nearly identical conditions in their production). 
Each succeeding moment of light from this series of
still images, impinging on the sensitive matter in yer
eyeballs, carries with it the illusion of Buster
Keaton (not to mention a locomotive, trees, soldiers
etc." And he continues (on, and on) about microscopic
bits of silver bromide on an extremely long strip of
celluloid, and the amazing coincidence of all the
atoms that make up these things starting out at the
big bang and arriving billions of years later at the
same time in the same place, inside a bunch of other
atoms comprising a projector, etc., etc., until even a
good Buddhist wants to strangle him.

But he has a point--that liberation from attachment to
the illusions that we take for the 'selves' of things
is gained not from thinking about, say, the story line
of the movie or my idea of Buster Keaton or even about
this guy's long-winded analyses, but by the experience
and understanding of the nature of each of these
succeeding moments of experience.

That's what I was aiming at.  That it's the
quanta--nama and rupa--arising and subsiding so
rapidly that we don't consciously experience them,
that make up the illusion of the movie, or Buster
Keaton, or Jina, or Mike, or my computer, or this
list.  And that it's these quanta that are the
foundations of mindfulness--not the illusions
themselves.

Standing by for corrections...

mike


 
2989 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello

 
  Hi Maggie,

I'm very glad that Shin has encouraged you to check us
out and I'm sorry that so many messages you saw on
your first look were so confusing. I think it's like
that for most people when they first take a look.
Bruce and Robert have given some good suggestions. If
the volume is too much, use the website only or get
them in the digest form which is easy to scroll
through. I'm sure many people here skip the more
technical messages with too much pali and it's easy to
do that. It's not like a live discussion where you
have to politely listen to those aspects you have no
interest in!

In fact, in the beginning you could just view the ones
addressed to you and skip everything else until you
get a little more used to us all.

For me, the purpose of studying Dhamma is to get to
know a little more about what I think of as myself and
the world around me. What is the greatest achievment
in life? What is happiness? What is wise and unwise?
What can really be proved and checked out at this
moment? What are the causes of our difficulties in
life  and why are the Buddha's teachings still being
studied? These are a few of the questions I'm
interested in and studying Dhamma helps me begin to
understand some of the answers SLOWLY! How about you?
What are you interested to know?

In the group we 'meet' friends from all over the world
who can share their understanding and ask different
questions. So please join us and ask anything you
like. If you read anything in the books and articles
others are recommending that doesn't make sense, you
many like to see if it makes sense to any of us. 

Best wishes,

Sarah (in Hong Kong but from England)

---  wrote: > Hello,
> I am Shin Lin's sister, Maggie... Pls kindly advise
> me what is the best for 
> beginners.. 
> I believe only every action equal to every reaction.
> So I just have to pray 
> and be peaceful. What is the purpose of studying
> Dhamma?
> with regards,
> Maggie



 
2990 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Jina and Mike,
Greatly appreciate your input on the list Jina. I have been
listening in on the very informative discussion between you,
Amara, sarah and Jim about vibhajavadi and learnt a lot.
Please excuse my intrusion on this thread.

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > I awoke around 3AM thinking about this and I don't
> think I gave your question regarding my comment due
> consideration.  I want to take another stab at this by
> way of my own limited understanding, using as little
> abhidhamma terminology (in which language I'm nearly
> illiterate, anyway) as possible.
> 
> I'm a big Buster Keaton fan.  Suppose I'm watching a
> Buster Keaton movie on TV, and someone comes along and
> says, "That isn't Buster Keaton." So I say, "Whaddaya
> mean, of COURSE it's Buster Keaton, who do YOU think
> it is?!" and he says (rather smugly), "It isn't anyone
> at all.  It's just light from the tube in your
> television set, electronically converted from an
> extremely rapid series of still images, each one
> nearly identical to the previous one (because of
> nearly identical conditions in their production). 
> Each succeeding moment of light from this series of
> still images, impinging on the sensitive matter in yer
> eyeballs, carries with it the illusion of Buster
> Keaton (not to mention a locomotive, trees, soldiers
> etc." And he continues (on, and on) about microscopic
> bits of silver bromide on an extremely long strip of
> celluloid, and the amazing coincidence of all the
> atoms that make up these things starting out at the
> big bang and arriving billions of years later at the
> same time in the same place, inside a bunch of other
> atoms comprising a projector, etc., etc., until even a
> good Buddhist wants to strangle him.
 
Good analogy. I know whay you mean with your last sentence. Even
I reach saturation about the speed of rise and fall after a
while.


> 
> But he has a point--that liberation from attachment to
> the illusions that we take for the 'selves' of things
> is gained not from thinking about, say, the story line
> of the movie or my idea of Buster Keaton or even about
> this guy's long-winded analyses, but by the experience
> and understanding of the nature of each of these
> succeeding moments of experience.
> 
> That's what I was aiming at.  That it's the
> quanta--nama and rupa--arising and subsiding so
> rapidly that we don't consciously experience them,
> that make up the illusion of the movie, or Buster
> Keaton, or Jina, or Mike, or my computer, or this
> list.  And that it's these quanta that are the
> foundations of mindfulness--not the illusions
> themselves.
> 
> Standing by for corrections..

Sounds pretty good to me. I think it might have been me a month
or two back who cited the commentarial statement about the
incredible speed of the arising and passing away of mind and
matter. This was to show that the level of understanding called
vipassana - at which time nama and rupa are clearly
distinguished- is not at all a hazy insight. Nor can it be
controlled or bought into being by dint of will. It is a most
advanced stage of wisdom indeed.
This was not meant to discourage or cause anyone to doubt
whether they ever had sati or panna. There has to be so much
awareness and understanding before the stage of vipassana. And
at the beginning stages the difference between nama and rupa is
vague. This does not mean there is never insight of the level of
satipatthana. 
Robert



 
2991 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 10:44pm
Subject: Re: Hello

 
  >  What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?


Hello and welcome, Maggie,

This is just the place for such a question, I think, and everyone has 
answered you so well I hope you will stay and study with us.  I love 
to learn new things, especially about the Buddha's teachings and I 
have learned a lot from this list.  Any question I did not know about 
I asked people who could help and learned so much that way too.  
Besides you will find that people with different accumulations will 
give you fresh views of things.

The reason I first studied the dhamma is because I was born a 
Buddhist and have always been taught that the dhamma is the greatest 
good and I wanted to find our what it is, and how good it is, for 
myself.  I learned that the Dhamma means the truth, reality, and the 
Buddha's teachings.  I also learned that the truth according to the 
teachings and truer than what I had believed to be the truth, and 
that it can be proven by anyone with eyes, ears, nose tongue, body 
sense and mind.  I have been studying since then, and can safely say 
that for me it has been most beneficial as well as absolutely 
fascinating.

I can't encourage you enough to try it out yourself,

Amara

 
2992 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > I'm a big Buster Keaton fan.  Suppose I'm watching a
> Buster Keaton movie on TV, and someone comes along and
> says, "That isn't Buster Keaton." So I say, "Whaddaya
> mean, of COURSE it's Buster Keaton, who do YOU think
> it is?!" and he says (rather smugly), "It isn't anyone
> at all.  It's just light from the tube in your
> television set, electronically converted from an
> extremely rapid series of still images, each one
> nearly identical to the previous one (because of
> nearly identical conditions in their production). 
> Each succeeding moment of light from this series of
> still images, impinging on the sensitive matter in yer
> eyeballs, carries with it the illusion of Buster
> Keaton (not to mention a locomotive, trees, soldiers
> etc." And he continues (on, and on) about microscopic
> bits of silver bromide on an extremely long strip of
> celluloid, and the amazing coincidence of all the
> atoms that make up these things starting out at the
> big bang and arriving billions of years later at the
> same time in the same place, inside a bunch of other
> atoms comprising a projector, etc., etc., until even a
> good Buddhist wants to strangle him.
> 
> But he has a point--that liberation from attachment to
> the illusions that we take for the 'selves' of things
> is gained not from thinking about, say, the story line
> of the movie or my idea of Buster Keaton or even about
> this guy's long-winded analyses, but by the experience
> and understanding of the nature of each of these
> succeeding moments of experience.
> 
> That's what I was aiming at.  That it's the
> quanta--nama and rupa--arising and subsiding so
> rapidly that we don't consciously experience them,
> that make up the illusion of the movie, or Buster
> Keaton, or Jina, or Mike, or my computer, or this
> list.  And that it's these quanta that are the
> foundations of mindfulness--not the illusions
> themselves.
> 
> Standing by for corrections...


Dear Mike, 

It is I who stand corrected, I should not have second guessed you at 
answering Jina this morning!  Talk about a fresh look at the dhamma!!! 
 This has been the most enjoyable description so far, thank you for 
the laughter as well as the penetrating insight.  Sorry I took the 
liberty earlier,

Amara

 
2993 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 10:59pm
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  > I have been
> listening in on the very informative discussion between you,
> Amara, sarah and Jim about vibhajavadi and learnt a lot.
> Please excuse my intrusion on this thread.

Dear Robert,

There can be no intrusion on this list, so long as it is about the 
dhamma, and we look forward to learning more from you, fresh from 
your vacation!

Anumodana,

Amara

 
2994 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:34pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Mike,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: m. nease [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 4:54 AM
> > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation
>
>
> I'm a big Buster Keaton fan.  Suppose I'm watching a
> Buster Keaton movie on TV, and someone comes along and
> says, "That isn't Buster Keaton." So I say, "Whaddaya
> mean, of COURSE it's Buster Keaton, who do YOU think
> it is?!" and he says (rather smugly), "It isn't anyone
> at all.  It's just light from the tube in your
> television set, electronically converted from an
> extremely rapid series of still images, each one
> nearly identical to the previous one (because of
> nearly identical conditions in their production).
> Each succeeding moment of light from this series of
> still images, impinging on the sensitive matter in yer
> eyeballs, carries with it the illusion of Buster
> Keaton (not to mention a locomotive, trees, soldiers
> etc." And he continues (on, and on) about microscopic

Thanks for this analogy.  I would like to add that if you think of how TV
works, the image doesn't even exist.  At a finer grain level, TV electron
emitter fills the image with progressive series of lines through the entire
tube.  Each still image that we see is just a series of line.  A line can be
broken down further.  It is a series of electrons hitting the tube
progressively to form a line.  The light emitted at the beginning of the
line is long gone before the light at the end of the line even starts to
begin.

When we see a person at a moment, what part of a person do we see?  How many
moments of cittas does it take to see just a person (the entire) head
(pannatti) ?  When we "see" a person head, surely, the rupas that we think
of as a head have all ceased to exist.  Which part of the person do we see
first?  The ear?  Then the cheek?  Then the nose?  The rupa that we take as
the ear has ceased to exist even before we start seeing the cheek.  Can we
take anything we see to be something else besides what is seen?  The
something else is just purely delusional: it doesn't exist.

Anumodhana again for the effort to write down a very good explanation.

kom



 
2995 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 0:41am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  Dear Kom,

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> When we see a person at a moment, what part of a
> person do we see?  How many
> moments of cittas does it take to see just a person
> (the entire) head
> (pannatti) ?  When we "see" a person head, surely,
> the rupas that we think
> of as a head have all ceased to exist.  Which part
> of the person do we see
> first?  The ear?  Then the cheek?  Then the nose? 
> The rupa that we take as
> the ear has ceased to exist even before we start
> seeing the cheek.  Can we
> take anything we see to be something else besides
> what is seen?  The
> something else is just purely delusional: it doesn't
> exist.

This is just what I was aiming at, much better
explained--thanks!

mike


 
2996 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:52am
Subject: Re: Foremost analyst

 
  hello Amara, 
thank you for the context of this meditator practicing in 
Germany. I do not know which tradition of vipassana meditation
he is following. I know Dhiravamsa has led a retreat in 
Germany yearly now for over 35 years (at Haus der Stille, near 
Hamburg). <Dhiravamsa is my teacher, beginning in 1974>
with metta,
jinavamsa

 
2997 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:57am
Subject: Re: My sister Maggie

 
  hello Shin and (presently absent sister Maggie), 
I too have only recently joined this discussion group. I have a 
sense of what you are saying. It occurs to me, given this, that
one way this might work is if terms in Pali are joined with 
renderings of those terms in English. This might be helpful
to those who do not know Pali, do not have a Pali dictionary
handy, or who do not have the time or patience to look up 
each Pali word in order to follow the comments being made. 

with mettâ (kind friendship), 
jinavamsa <a name> 
:>) 


---  "shin lin" wrote:
> Dear Dhamma Friends,
> I believe there are many friends who are like my younger sister, 
Maggie 
> who entered this discussion and would like to get out right away 
because 
> she didn't understand what everyone was talking about and within one 
> day, she received so much mails, which she has no cue of what is 
going 
> on.. 
> She told me that she is going to log off because it scared her off.
> IS there any possibilities which we can do like setting group for 
total 
> beginners ? There are some people who does not have any idea what is 
> dhamma ? And Maggie is one of them. She only knows how to meditate 
> and recites.. She has no idea of what dhamma is and I think it is 
> extremely hard for me to explain to her.
> It would be appreciated if any of you can help her. Anumodana.
> asking for help,
> Shin

 
2998 From: Jinavamsa   
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 7:06am
Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation

 
  hello Mike, 
ah yes. memory re-activated! 
I have nothing I'd call a correction to what you're saying. 
Maybe I'd just add something that goes along with what you're
pointing out here. And that is that we can see the results of
this illusion-making if not the illusion-making itself. In 
other words, perhaps the units out of which the sense of a self
are too small to be perceived individually (I leave aside the 
somewhat speculative nature of such a statement); still, the 
resultant sense of a self can be perceived. Most easily, perhaps, 
in inter-relationship with other people, as when someone 
recognizes us as this or that, or criticizes us, or commends us, 
and so on. It is perhaps here that the arising of vedanâ 
(experiences insofar as pleasant, unpleasant, or neither especially
pleasant or unpleasant) can be used to bring our attention to 
the relevant sense of self being addressed, as a mirror held 
close to the mouth on an ice-cold day can show us our breath. 
And did you meet Dhiravamsa up in San Juan Island? (He's 
visiting Thailand right now, then he's on to Australia to 
lead a retreat there, before returning to Spain.)  
Jinavamsa

---  "m. nease"  wrote:
> Hello Again, Jina,
> 
> (By the way, do you remember meeting on the d-l last
> year?  It was Dhiravamsa who first introduced me to
> the Theravada by way, interestingly, of
> vedananupassana.)
> 
> --- Jinavamsa wrote:
> 
> > re the comment: 
> > 
> > > In my case 'I' could surely not 'be aware of
> > thinking
> > > at the moment of thinking' unless that process
> > were
> > > repeated unimaginably vast numbers of times.  Do
> > you
> > > mean that a (surely imperceptible) moment of
> > awareness
> > > might arise with thinking, and leave its equally
> > > imperceptible trace?  
> > ====
> > Let me see if I understand. Suppose that we are
> > practicing
> > mindfulness. And at one moment, what arises in
> > consciousness
> > is a thought, or thinking. This is noticed as it
> > arises or 
> > comes to be/appear, and as it is replaced by
> > whatever comes
> > next in consciousness. That is/was fairly simple.
> > What would be
> > the idea of an infinite regress here [which is how I
> > read
> > the "repeatedly unimaginably vast number of times"
> > phrase to 
> > be suggesting]? 
> > thank you.
> > Jinavamsa
> > =============
> 
> I awoke around 3AM thinking about this and I don't
> think I gave your question regarding my comment due
> consideration.  I want to take another stab at this by
> way of my own limited understanding, using as little
> abhidhamma terminology (in which language I'm nearly
> illiterate, anyway) as possible.
> 
> I'm a big Buster Keaton fan.  Suppose I'm watching a
> Buster Keaton movie on TV, and someone comes along and
> says, "That isn't Buster Keaton." So I say, "Whaddaya
> mean, of COURSE it's Buster Keaton, who do YOU think
> it is?!" and he says (rather smugly), "It isn't anyone
> at all.  It's just light from the tube in your
> television set, electronically converted from an
> extremely rapid series of still images, each one
> nearly identical to the previous one (because of
> nearly identical conditions in their production). 
> Each succeeding moment of light from this series of
> still images, impinging on the sensitive matter in yer
> eyeballs, carries with it the illusion of Buster
> Keaton (not to mention a locomotive, trees, soldiers
> etc." And he continues (on, and on) about microscopic
> bits of silver bromide on an extremely long strip of
> celluloid, and the amazing coincidence of all the
> atoms that make up these things starting out at the
> big bang and arriving billions of years later at the
> same time in the same place, inside a bunch of other
> atoms comprising a projector, etc., etc., until even a
> good Buddhist wants to strangle him.
> 
> But he has a point--that liberation from attachment to
> the illusions that we take for the 'selves' of things
> is gained not from thinking about, say, the story line
> of the movie or my idea of Buster Keaton or even about
> this guy's long-winded analyses, but by the experience
> and understanding of the nature of each of these
> succeeding moments of experience.
> 
> That's what I was aiming at.  That it's the
> quanta--nama and rupa--arising and subsiding so
> rapidly that we don't consciously experience them,
> that make up the illusion of the movie, or Buster
> Keaton, or Jina, or Mike, or my computer, or this
> list.  And that it's these quanta that are the
> foundations of mindfulness--not the illusions
> themselves.
> 
> Standing by for corrections...
> 
> mike

 
   
2999 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 10:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst

 
  Dear Amara,

You wrote:

>Dear Jim,
>
>Thank you for your analysis, I see you make a distinction between the
>request for information and a question which escaped me.  The more so
>perhaps since normally both situations could use the common verb, to
>ask, (to ask for information, to ask a question) and both request
>answers.  To clarify things a bit more, you would say that if your
>example from the Subhasutta:
>
>> Turning now to the Subhasutta:
>>
>> ... the brahman youth Subha, Todeyya's son, spoke thus to the Lord:
>> "Good Gotama, brahmans speak thus: 'A householder is accomplishing
>the
>> right path, dhamma, what is skilled; one who has gone forth is not
>> accomplishing the right path, dhamma, what is skilled.' What does
>the good
>> Gotama say to this?"
>
>
>were not followed by the question, he would not be asking anything?

Right, he would not be asking anything, -- just telling the Buddha what the
brahmans said.

>This is a distinction I need to study more closely.  For example if my
>correspondent had been more specific and asked me who such people
>were, what their methods are and what I thought of them they would
>constitute questions?

Yes, they would be questions.

I consider your correspondent's statement:

>I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me.

to be along the lines of a directive. There are 4 general semantic classes
of sentences: statements, questions, directives, & exclamations. According
to 'A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language': "questions are
primarily used to seek information on a specific point" and "directives are
primarily used to instruct someone to do something". A request is a
pragmatic category of a directive. The syntactic class of sentences called
an imperative is typically used to express a directive such as: "Please send
me any information." It is possible however to express a directive using a
declarative such as: "I'd love a cup of tea." which is suggesting that
someone bring a cup of tea to the speaker -- a suggestion is another
pragmatic category of the directive.

I read the full message (with names deleted) that you posted in response to
Jinavamsa which provides a better idea of the kind of information the writer
is seeking. I still don't see any questions, directly or indirectly, in the
message. But it is probable that the person writing the message has some
specific questions in mind and that the information you send him may help
him to answer some of these questions. Making distinctions in linguistic
usage can be very difficult and confusing in some areas. The following is an
example of a directive that performs indirectly as a question: "Tell me what
you know about this group." which could also be put directly as a
question:"What do you know about this group?"

I'm just giving you my perspective on the matter and I can understand that
you might read a dhamma question in between the lines.

Best wishes,
Jim A.